Talk:Civil volunteer movement helping Ukrainian forces in the war in Donbas

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Merge[edit]

This topic totally smacks of synthesis. This isn't discussing an organized movement like the maquis; it brings together a variety of sources talking about a variety of events and movements. Might I add that in places its tone isn't exactly neutral. Drmies (talk) 00:06, 18 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The movement is not organized. So what? It is described in many summarizing reliable sources, and the article is based primarily on them. Sources about particular details are given for illustration of these details. Stas (talk) 00:17, 18 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
If it's not organized it's not a movement. It seems to me you're collecting details to form an "unorganized movement" so you can give it a title and an article.Drmies (talk) 00:34, 18 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Dear colleague,
I'd prefer to operate with arguments of some other level than "I believe" and "It seems to me". Since you suggested an idea to merge this article, I must conclude that you have already examined all the sources, including those which are in Ukrainian and Russian languages. So, why do you regard this, this, this and this sources as insufficiently summarizing/outlining in regard to the subject? Stas (talk) 00:56, 18 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Feel free not to patronize me, dear Stas. Ymblanter, it is possible that you are just a tad better than me in Slavic languages; Materialscientist, perhaps you have something to add here as well. I'd appreciate your input. Drmies (talk) 01:28, 18 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
As for the sources, НІСД is the Ukranian National Institute for Strategic Studies, which is not a reliable secondary source. The study you link, by Prof. Memtivna, is lacking a bit (a lot) in depth of sourcing (it cites only nine sources) and is all over the place--it discusses volunteerism in general, and maybe half of it discusses Ukraine, and maybe half of that describes that there are volunteer organizations that help out Ukrainian forces. It does not actually explain what these clubs are doing in Donbass, as you can see on p. 9: they may help in repairing tanks and aircraft, but this may or may not be in Donbass. Drmies (talk) 01:49, 18 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Usually, Wikipedia users don't need other users to find grounds for their conclusions. The article of Docent (not "Prof.") Tokhtarova (not "Memtivna") discusses volunteerism that helps Ukrainian forces in over 1 page, beginning from "Надзвичайно потужний поштовх розвитку волонтерського руху в Україні надала Революція Гідності та війна на сході України проти російсько-сепаратистських завойовників" (especially from "вони почали годувати, лікувати та забезпечувати всім необхідним Українську Армію, що воює з сепаратистами на сході нашої держави"). The reliable source does not need to be fully devoted to the subject. And this is only one of the sources. Now, let's talk about removing of the links with the comment "if these are reliable, use them as such. rm linkfarm". I do not insist that all these links are necessary. Quite possible, there really were too many of them. And I also prefer Nature and Science in the role of reliable sources. But they don't write on social themes, and in articles on such themes, Wikipedians usually are satisfied with BBC, New York Times, The Guardian and so on. So, I don't see the urgent reason to remove all these links. Stas (talk) 02:18, 18 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia works by way of consensus, and expert opinions should be welcomed, not discouraged. "Not fully devoted"--so we have at best two pages in that source of yours. Calling her a "docent" doesn't help your case, by the way. This is starting to sound more and more like a deliberate attempt to avoid English sourcing so that your topic become more inscrutable. Drmies (talk) 11:59, 18 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • About the "deliberate attempt" - see WP:AGF. If I continued the talk about deliberate attempts, I could say that the accusations me of avoiding English sourcing after your removing a set of English sources "sound more and more like a deliberate attempt" to present me as an unfair player, the article as an undersourced one, and the topic as unnotable one.
  • About "English sourcing" - see WP:RS and WP:VER: reliability of the source does not depend on its language. Unfortunately, all topics associated with a single country are covered primarily by sources in the language of this country.
  • About "inscrutable topics" and docents. If some topic is so inscrutable that a hypothetical editor is not familiarized with the sources and poorly understands even those sources which he read, he would make no conclusions about this topic. And if the editor wants to make any conclusions, he inevitably carefully examines all the sources. Stas (talk) 16:44, 18 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Closing, given that the discussion is stale over more than 18 months and without consensus. Klbrain (talk) 19:34, 1 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

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