Talk:Climate of Greece

Dubious "corrected for altitude"

From edit summary:

How do you "correct" temperature for altitude?? Lapse rate varies by region, longitude, and other factors, so this would be impossible to get a direct conversion.

Ufwuct 11:24, 3 April 2007 (UTC) ok first this is not thr —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.42.248.73 (talk) 20:42, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Greece highest temperature and strange systematic mistakes

In this article, the record high temperature in Greece was 48.7°C before I corrected it to the documented figure of 48,0°C approved by HNMS and WMO. This false figure appears also in other languages: I found in Українська 48,7°C, in the Greek article for Attica (climate) 48,7°C.

I have checked the article history backwards. The 48.7°C figure appears for the first time on 14 August 2007 in this edit http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Climate_of_Greece&diff=prev&oldid=151146660 by the hands of the IP user 87.203.110.94.

I am also checking all the Athens-related and Greece-related articles for what they say about climate. It seems that much material without reference (and, worse, false material) has been distributed among these articles.

--Amending (talk) 16:24, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

Koppen Map

The Peel 2007 map is much better and accurate source.The other map is based on limited station data for Greece.Please do not revert again Weatherextremes (talk) 20:15, 21 September 2016 (UTC)

@Weatherextremes: FYI, you're in violation of copyright policy. Looks like you just copied and pasted it from their website. It's really blurry as well. SVG is the preferred image format for Wikipedia.

Also, if you're arguing for Peel 2007 as more accurate (which I'd dispute), it seems like the map you replaced (Ali Zifan's version) would make more sense than in place of my version, since it's SVG and is based off Peel's data. SVG is the preferred image format for Wikipedia. Redtitan (talk) 20:47, 21 September 2016 (UTC)

I edited the map in fact,rectified the Anafi and Santorini colouring (which is wrong in the Peel version and he has put a special note acknowledging this on the site) and added the link bit at the bottom so its my work.The previous SVG version also fails to take into account the BSh climates of Greece.They claim to have used the Peel data but all of South Attica and the Cyclades are under CSa climate when they should be under BSh according to Peel. Weatherextremes (talk) 11:48, 22 September 2016 (UTC)

Also check out from Peel the Known Errors section [1] for Greece which I rectified on my map version Weatherextremes (talk) 11:55, 22 September 2016 (UTC)

Come to think about it since I am not that good on doing maps could you integrate on your map version the corrections I am suggesting for the BSh climates and cite Peel as well?I mean your version on Greece is not blurry so if you could integrate the changes I reckon it would be a better and more accurate result Weatherextremes (talk) 12:05, 22 September 2016 (UTC)

Also you can back up the BSh climates from either Koutsogiannis et al 2008 (mentioned by Peel on link 1) or directly from HNMS (Greece's met office) for South Attica specifically [2].So if its not much of a hassle for you we could do it like that adopting your map version with the inclusion of the BSh climates Weatherextremes (talk) 12:28, 22 September 2016 (UTC)

I just produced the map below which is not blurry in case you dont want to change your version to show the BSh climates

Greece's Koppen climate map

Weatherextremes (talk) 15:36, 22 September 2016 (UTC)

@Weatherextremes: Unfortunately, I wouldn't be able to modify my map, since I use raster datasets to generate the images. There's no way I could manually change the climate zones myself. I just input the data and set constraints for each climate type, and the program classifies pixels based on the raw climate data.

If there was a more detailed dataset from the Greek meteorological agency (in .asc or .bil form) that contained mean monthly temperature and precipitation data for all of Greece, I could definitely use that, but I can't find one on their website.

Often times, national weather networks have more detailed climate information than the international projections of climate data, like the one I'm using from WorldClim.org. When it comes to small areas with unique climates, often times, it can leave them out. A similar issue just happened with the climate map for Spain, where a small area of coastal desert (BWh) was left out, which upset another user.

There's another program - Inkscape - that I might be able to use to mix the corrected Peel data and integrate some of the new information from the WorldClim.org data I used (e.g. Csb at higher altitudes in the western mountains, classified as Csa under Peel). I'd have to draw the types by hand and it'd take a while, since I'm not as skilled in that program. It'd generate a SVG map similar to yours - with lines and without pixels. Until then, I think your new version works well. Redtitan (talk) 21:03, 22 September 2016 (UTC)

Just a quick note: you might want to add credits to the Wikimedia commons page for your map. It looks like an edited version of Ali Zifan's. If that's right, then you should be good to go - you'd just need to credit Ali Zifan there and Peel et al. 2007. Under the CC 4.0 license that Ali Zifan used, you have to credit the original author, in the Wikimedia commons page for your derivative work. Otherwise, it might be slated for deletion like the last map. Redtitan (talk) 21:40, 22 September 2016 (UTC)

Can you help me out a bit on this one?Where exactly am I supposed to credit Ali Zifan and Peel? Weatherextremes (talk) 22:03, 22 September 2016 (UTC)

I have credit them under Licensing. Is that ok? Weatherextremes (talk) 22:06, 22 September 2016 (UTC)

That looks good to me. Redtitan (talk) 22:08, 22 September 2016 (UTC)

Actually, I take back what I said. I was able to patch together a modification to my map a lot more easily than I thought. How does this look?

It looks fine.I dont want to be pedantic but since your map actually shows all of Greece's islands could you add the BSh climates to the rest of the islands according to Peel?If you are unsure which islands are these you could check here [3] go to the first section Where can I get a copy of the map? and check the link named detailed info version. This will take you on a Koppen Google Earth version where you can see with every detail the islands and the remaining areas with a BSh climate.Just ignore the BWh climate of Santorini and Anafi since Peel mentions that both these islands should be BSh in the Known Errors section.If that's not much of a hassle for you I would prefer your detailed version with the correction for the areas with a BSh climate Weatherextremes (talk) 05:16, 23 September 2016 (UTC)

Also there is a very small area in North East Crete with a BSh climate according to Peel.It shouldn't be much more than a small dot on your map Weatherextremes (talk) 05:47, 23 September 2016 (UTC)

In the meantime I uploaded an updated version with some corrections according to Peel.Thasos island was corrected to Csb from Csa, the Xanthi-Komotini area was corrected from Dsa to Dsb, the east Evros area bordering Turkey was changed from Dsa to Csa , a really tiny area in the Greek-Bulgarian borders just immediately north of Drama was changed to ET as shown in Peel, a very small area just south of Kilkis and north of Thessaloniki was changed from Cfa to Cfb and finally a tiny area of the Elounta area in NE Crete was changed from Csa to BSh again according to Peel.I think I did the best I could since Ali Zifan's map doesnt show all of Greece's islands but still it should be the closest to Peel Weatherextremes (talk) 16:45, 23 September 2016 (UTC)

Also had to change a small area of the NW Evros tip (which I forgot earlier) from Dsb to Csb. (talk) 17:26, 23 September 2016 (UTC)

So I had to do further corrections in my map (which I hope will be the last version this time).It seems I missed a fairly widespread area of Csb climate along the Macedonian coast and also corrected the NW Evros tip where in a very small area within Greece 4 climates converge.Below is the map.

Greece's Köppen Climate Types Peel et al. (2007)

Weatherextremes (talk) 12:39, 24 September 2016 (UTC)

Ok someone changed the map to Redtitan's version.Given that the data source is debatable since it is also in contradiction to Greece's HNMS and Redtitan has not responded here about the modifications I proposed on his version I believe my version is more accurate in terms of data Weatherextremes (talk) 09:17, 25 September 2016 (UTC)

Hi - I've been away on a trip this weekend, and was away from my computer. Looks like a lot has happened. I can make those changes to my map, hopefully in the next day or two, and will upload a new version soon. Also, I used the version 1 data from WorldClim for all my maps (apart from the US maps, which use PRISM data), since version 2 of the WorldClim data had restrictions on it, as you noted.

Looks like your map is currently nominated for deletion again on Wikimedia Commons. It appears the person wasn't happy with the licensing and its not being a SVG version. I'll try to get my version on soon before that one is deleted, so an accurate SVG version is on the article. Redtitan (talk) 22:08, 25 September 2016 (UTC)

I've posted a short defense of your map on its Deletion discussion page: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/File:Greece%27s_K%C3%B6ppen_Climate_Types_Peel_et_al._(2007).png Hopefully, it won't be deleted, or at least, they'll keep it up until I can create and upload the new version of my map. Redtitan (talk) 22:37, 25 September 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for that!Since you seem an expert on maps would it be a problem after you finish with the map to do it also in Greek?I can help with the translation and the text if you want Weatherextremes (talk) 00:10, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

I've been translating a lot of climate maps into the official languages of their countries, and I'd be happy to do that for Greece. If you want to post the Greek translations to my talk page, I can easily copy and paste them into my GIS program and generate a Greek version in just a few minutes. It's no trouble at all. Redtitan (talk) 00:21, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

Thank you I will post the translations once you finish with the English edition.Can you do the map of Greece entirely based on Peel?Would that be a problem?I am saying this because I notice from wordclim.org that there are less data on Greece compared to the data from Peel.Also at least in Greece Peel's classification is considered the best and widely used so your map could be used for various educational purposes Weatherextremes (talk) 05:59, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

Peel's data isn't formatted correctly for use in my map program, so I can't make a quality map with it. Also, I do feel that Peel makes a big flaw by failing to account for elevation (for instance, most of the south and west of Greece is very mountainous and >1000 m, but is still listed as Csa, not Csb). It's listed in Peel's 2007 paper and a possible improvements. The WorldClim data takes elevation into account. Every 1000 m in elevation, temperature decreases 6.4 deg C. Redtitan (talk) 17:01, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

What about the ECAD database?I think its the same data Peel uses and I reckon the data is properly formatted with a lot of Greek stations.Check it out here [4] Weatherextremes (talk) 19:28, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

Unfortunately, that data wouldn't work either. It's all point data from individual stations. In my map program, I'm not able to generate an accurate map estimating the climate in between those stations. That's a more complex skill, one that climate researchers, like Peel or the team that generated the WorldClim rasters can do, but that I can't. Redtitan (talk) 20:08, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

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Lindos official HNMS annual mean is around 19ºC by HNMS

Hello @Weatherextremes: I have seen that you recently changed what was in this article for years to put 21ºC in Lindos, but that's not appropiate. Look, the source you have posted is entirely in Greek and people literally have to search year by year to see that, nevertheless it's just 6 years of data and that's not an official HNMS station, so that's why are using the data of the warmest Greek climate which is Rhodes with a real HNMS long term data. Take account that Wikipedia as per WP:GUIDELINES should be as encyclopedical as possible, and climate normals should be followed when they're available, such as it happens in the case of Rhodes. That's why I'm deleting the 2014-2021 Lindos claim which is not based on an official station and nevertheless it's just 6 years of data, I could also put the Davis aspirated fan station for example in the center of Seville or the Meteo Calabria Davis station in Messina (just to put 2 examples) that would put both cities much warmer than they're in their official 1981-2010 data.

Also, the official HNMS map (this is the most reliable data) shows Lindos and the surrounding areas between 18-19ºC as you can see all of coastal Rhodes is between 18-19ºC and this is the official HNMS map, 2014-2021 data is not acceptable in any kind of Wikipedia article, Rhodes has 1955-2010 data, now that's acceptable. You knew this happened in the past in the Lindos article and the data you've posted got deleted, I don't want to involve Wikipedia Administrators. Let's leave the warmest official station with enough years of data, not just 6 years. If you still want to keep your changes, discuss it here on the talk page as per WP:CYCLE because you changed a previous stable version of the page. Thank you. --TechnicianGB (talk) 11:12, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

Hello, first the source is 7 years of data and will be 8 full years of data as of March 2022. Secondly, as per the Lindos article providing these very same recent data is helpful to the reader since this is new official information from the National Observatory of Athens regarding Greece's dynamic in terms of mean annual temps. Ideally yes we need more years of data but as we have already discussed in the Lindos talk page there are no HNMS data for SE Rhodes and the whole island is extrapolated by the Diagoras airport which presents a completely different climate compared to the Lindos area. In light of this the NOA data for Lindos should be there to inform the reader about the highest official mean which in turns gives clearer insight to the average user for the true picture of Greece's dynamic. Now, If you object to the year by year search I will prefer to revert using the Meteoclub source and we can request wide community feedback on the source since I have already mentioned that I would feel comfortable if more admins and editors show the source Weatherextremes (talk) 11:42, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

Also the Lindos data are official data from the Institute of Environmental Research and Sustainable Development of the National Observatory of Athens Weatherextremes (talk) 11:50, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

@Weatherextremes: You reverted the last stable edit at 11:27 without even writing anything in the talk page (you said "check the talk page" while you didn't even reply), you wrote something here later at 11:42 and you reverted again without any kind of reason, why are you making an edit war again? Do you really want me to fill another report because in this case is not like in Seville's case where it was an unreliable source, in this case it's you trying to impose your WP:NPOV and you're not respecting WP:CYCLE after I told you 2 times, one in this talk page another one in your own talk page. If you do one single more revert I will report to the Administrators Noticeboard as you're on the edge of breaking WP:3RR as per Wikipedia:Edit warring.

Still, you're not providing a valid source saying Lindos has an annual mean of 21.9ºC and as I've told you above (which you seem to not comprehend yet again) these 6-7 years of data are not Encyclopedical and not accepted as per WP:GUIDELINES as that's not even near to a climate normal and it's not even an official HNMS station. If you want an Administrator to have an opinion on this, call an administrator, don't creake another edit war for God's sake. --TechnicianGB (talk) 11:52, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

First of all, please tone it down. I do not appreciate threats of reporting me. I mean ok by all means go ahead if you feel like but this is as you understand yet again a content dispute and the core of the argument here is that the Rhodes extrapolated data from Diagoras airport do not present the real picture of SE Rhodes which shows huge and I mean huge difference according to the official data of the N.O.A for Lindos Weatherextremes (talk) 11:56, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

@Weatherextremes: Warning you for your continue disruptive editing/edit war and lack of engagement in constructive editings is not any kind of threat but something that has to be done as per WP:GUIDELINES. Since I see you don't want to cooperate and just try to impose your own WP:POV with a clearly non-neutral view, and since I've seen you've already broken the 3 revert rule without even trying to solve anything in this talk page, I will fill the report. I have warned you 4 times, one in this talk page, one in an edit summary and 2 in your own talk page. You simply don't care about anything and you just revert to impose your source while your own source doesn't even show anything what you claim for, also 7 years of data are not valid and you're just changing official HNMS data to prevail over your claims. This is not valid and you should learn how Wikipedia works first. But an admin will tell you because you seem to not to care about any warnings. --TechnicianGB (talk) 12:02, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

It is sad to see that you are reacting this way when you are turning a clear content dispute to an edit war by trying to impose your own WP:POV that Diagoras airport data somehow have anything to do with SE Rhodes which is the warmest area of the country according to the official and I mean official Lindos data from the N.O.A Weatherextremes (talk) 12:09, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

@Weatherextremes: Rhodes has an annual mean of 18.9ºC according to the official HNMS site, not only on the map itself (which you doubt albeit being an official source) proof: https://web.archive.org/web/20170325112626/http://www.hnms.gr/hnms/english/climatology/climatology_region_diagrams_html?dr_city=Rodos I have left the Lindos claim albeit it can't be verified and there isn't any link in the meteo.gr site that says "Lindos has an annual mean of 21.9ºC (2014-2021)" that's just original research that is very hard to find and in the whole Internet is only posted on meteoclub.gr which as you know is not a valid source on Wikipedia.

Yet as you claim, I will leave it to see what others think, but don't be surprised if anyone else deletes it. And anyways, you've broke the 3RR rule today but that's another issue. --TechnicianGB (talk) 13:32, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

I have edited slightly the bit to mention that Lindos is an official NOA station and we should be good to go. Also you have made multiple edits yourself in less than 24 hours. Lastly as per Lindos talk page the NOA database source is not original research as we have already discussed during the summer.Weatherextremes (talk) 13:52, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

@Weatherextremes: You/Me/Whoever can make as many edits as he/she desires in any Wikipedia article as long as it's not reverting (without consensus, unless if it's clear vandalism) nor making an edit war, which is your case.

Anyways, the NOA station of Lindos doesn't seem to be official as told by the own NOA in their website. Because, let's get straight on point here:

• Penteli NOA station. http://penteli.meteo.gr/stations/penteli/
• Lindos NOA station. http://penteli.meteo.gr/stations/lindos/

Can you please explain, if you say it's official, why the Penteli station says "Weather station of Penteli. Provided by the National Observatory of Athens. Hosted by the National Observatory of Athens"

While on the Lindos station says "Weather station of Lindos, Rhodes. Provided by the National Observatory of Athens. Hosted by Lakis Bakas, SV5KKU. Supervised by Lakis Bakas, SV5KKU"

With a quick Google search you can see that Lakis Bakas SV5KKU is a physical person living in Lindos that is not even a meteorologist. This clearly indicates that the Lindos NOA station is NOT official but only provided by the website of NOA, as it clearly says it's hosted and supervised by Lakis Bakas. I'm not saying this by myself, it's exactly written like this in the official meteo.gr station. So how can you say it's official? Now in Greek, extracted from meteo.gr

Ιδιοκτησία: Εθνικό Αστεροσκοπείο Αθηνών (Provided by the National Observatory of Athens)

Φιλοξενία: Λάκης Μπάκας, SV5KKU (Hosted by Lakis Bakas, SV5KKU)

Επίβλεψη: Λάκης Μπάκας, SV5KKU (Supervised by Lakis Bakas, SV5KKU)

Official source: http://penteli.meteo.gr/stations/lindos/

Weatherextremes, can you explain why for example the station of Penteli is all by NOA and this one is just "provided (that means, provided on the Internet) by NOA" but it's hosted and supervised by a normal person from Lindos?

The own NOA/Meteo.gr website indicates this station is clearly NOT official by NOA. Because it's not hosted by themselves. Do you have something to add in this regard?

I'll be waiting for your reply. But saying it's an official NOA station is wrong because it's just provided in their website, but not hosted by NOA. Not an official HNMS station is more realistic. --TechnicianGB (talk) 14:11, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

I think we are going into circles here. First check the Lindos station links better [5]. As you can see it is clearly marked as a station of the Institute of Environmental Research and Sustainable Development of the National Observatory of Athens. Also we have already discussed the same issue in the Lindos talk page [6] where myself and another local user provided the relevant links from NOA. Weatherextremes (talk) 14:17, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

I am also copying directly from the Lindos talk page: you can find Lindos in the drop down menu and here [7] the description of the network where Lindos is clear mentioned (page 4) as a part of the official network Weatherextremes (talk) 14:23, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

Oh and not to forget the Penteli station output is exactly the same as the Lindos one [8]. We are talking about a huge official network in Greece from NOA. The biggest in the country. Weatherextremes (talk) 14:27, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

In that discussion you didn't provide any relevant link that proves anything. The meteo.gr source still says the Lindos station is only provided by NOA (as it's provided by the NOA website) but it's hosted and supervised by a 3rd party, where it turns up it's not even an meteorologist but a normal person that probably likes weather. I will try to contact Lakis Bakas, but your argument is on a narrow wire, as I will try to see if NOA and Lakis Bakas reply something and to see what's their word because regarding to Greek Climatology you're clearly biased making claims. I have to admit I've done the same as you for example in Seville where I did retract my actions and I've finally edited what wasn't properly sourced, but it seems you aren't capable of doing the same. You have to understand Wikipedia is meant for Encyclopedic reasons, not to personal beliefs. Ευτυχισμένο το νέο έτος για σενα. --TechnicianGB (talk) 14:30, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

You know, it is interesting that you are so motivated to understand the Greek language just because of a single station that challenges your POV. I applaud you for that. Most people would not even bother. Anyhow let me try to articulate as best as I possibly can so I can help you understand. The title of the document ΔΙΚΤΥΟ ΑΥΤΟΜΑΤΩΝ ΜΕΤΕΩΡΟΛΟΓΙΚΩΝ ΣΤΑΘΜΩΝ ΕΘΝΙΚΟΥ ΑΣΤΕΡΟΣΚΟΠΕΙΟΥ ΑΘΗΝΩΝ found in the very first page of the NOA network description link [9] literally translates as NETWORK OF AUTOMATIC METEOROLOGICAL STATIONS OF THE NATIONAL OBSERVATORY OF ATHENS. As you understand because of how vast the network is NOA relies on 3rd parties to maintain the stations while NOA strictly supervises the whole network as detailed in this document. A final note on the Greek language. I do understand that you are not Greek so I would not expect you to know these things. The word Ιδιοκτησία means ownership, so the station is owned by NOA. You see the Greek language is a really complex language (unfortunately even for native Greek speakers Greek terms can be very challenging to transcribe to other languages) and you can translate this terms in various ways. Feliz Año Nuevo. Weatherextremes (talk) 14:47, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

Climate Change In Greece

As a part of a course, my partner and I created a new wiki page on Climate Change in Greece (see page by clicking link). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Paburnss (talk • contribs) 15:16, 20 May 2023 (UTC)