Talk:Cloudland Canyon State Park/GA1

GA Review

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review

Ok, please bear in mind I'm not being critical of you or any other contributors - this is a review of the article. Please don't consider anything I say as a personal attack. :) There are some minor grammatical issues I've noticed but they're not critical yet and wouldn't be an obstacle to passing.

Lead

• "where the elevation differs from 800 to 1,980 feet (244 m to 604 m)." - this information is not in the body of the article.

Reply. I am adding it into the body and will include a citation since this may be interpreted by some as a statistoc. The reliable source I'm using refers to the elevation of the top of the canyon as over 1,800 ft. The 1,980 ft level used the article may refer to the elevation of a nearby hill located elsewhere in the park. To be safe I am going to use what's the in citation from the source I have. Majoreditor (talk) 19:12, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

I confirmed that 1,980 feet is the highest elevation in the park via a web search; I will add that bit of information into the article. Majoreditor (talk) 20:15, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

• "rugged, beautiful, outstanding" - these are possibly WP:Peacock terms. They're descriptive, but you should consider choosing more neutral terms.

Reply. I have struck "beautiful". Let me look at the others to see if they RS use these terms and can be supported with in-line references or if it's better to remove them altogether. Majoreditor (talk) 01:32, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Added reference for "rugged" Majoreditor (talk) 19:05, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

• "into small pools below." - this is not in the article body.

Reply. I have added appropriate information on the pools into the body of the article. Majoreditor (talk) 02:22, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

The line you've added is incomplete and needs rectifying but I'll strike this point.

• "purchased by the state of Georgia in sections, beginning in 1938" - slight grammar issue there, consider something like "purchased in stages, by the state of Georgia, between 1938–19**"

Reply. Good point; I have changed it. Majoreditor (talk) 02:24, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

History

• "Cloudland Canyon was designated a state park in 1938 when the state began acquiring land from private owners. " - it isn't immediately obvious what happened here - did they start buying land, and then declare it a state park, or vice-versa? Did it become a state park by default once purchase began, or were the purchases part of a grand scheme to declare a state park?

Reply. I have combed through online searches, archival records in the library and books but cannot get an exact answer. as far as I can tell the land became a state park shortly after land acquisition began, but I can't find out exactly when. While I like your suggestion to include it, I maintain that it's not required for meeting GA criteria. That said, I will be sure to add it should I ever stumble across it. Majoreditor (talk) 03:09, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Alas, I am having no luck tracking this down through online searches. Perhaps one day I will stumble across a reliable source which has the answer. Majoreditor (talk) 03:29, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Post it as a question on the 'discussion' page of the article, in case someone knows. I'll strike it through as its clear you've done your best to find out. Parrot of Doom (talk) 09:28, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

• "The park, which was originally 1,924 acres (7.8 km2), has grown to its present size of 3,485 acres (14.10 km²).[2]" - grown, as a Tree grows - or grown along with the purchase of more land?

Reply: This sentence discusses the geographic expansion of the park over time. I will try using another verb such as "expanded" rather than "grown". Majoreditor (talk) 18:30, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

I've added 'been' to the sentence to make it clearer Parrot of Doom (talk) 10:48, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

• "Until 1939 the only access to the area was through Tennessee or Alabama. That year Georgia began work on Highway 136 to connect U.S. 41 to the recently purchased park. The Civilian Conservation Corps did much of the early work to construct the state park and access roads." - appears to be unreferenced. Needs a source.

Reply. I've added an in-line citation. However, I am a bit confused as to why you state that it "needs a source". GA criteria 2-b states that a Good Article provides in-line citations from reliable sources for direct quotations, statistics, published opinion, counter-intuitive or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged, and contentious material relating to living persons. Can you help me understand which of these conditions exists with this statement? Thanks. Majoreditor (talk) 03:33, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Verifiability. I'd like to know for certain that the line is factual, and not WP:OR. It shouldn't be difficult to provide a citation that demonstrates such. Parrot of Doom (talk) 10:54, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

I have added a second citation. Majoreditor (talk) 02:43, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Geology

* "Armuchee ridges" - could do with a link to explain that terminology

Reply. Good suggestion. I have wikilinked with ridges. The term "Armuchee" does not yet have its own article. I can wikilink it but it will show up red. Majoreditor (talk) 18:37, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

If its a classification important enough to have its own article, I'd wikilink it - another editor might redirect it to a more general page on ridges. Parrot of Doom (talk) 14:31, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

OK. I have taken your suggestion and wikilink Armuchee ridges. Brown's book on the North Georgia mountains, which is a well-respected and often-quoted regional source has a short section on the Armuchee ridges, so I suppose that it may merit its own article> Who knows, maybe I'll start the article myself :) Majoreditor (talk) 03:42, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

* "which display more intensive folding and faulting" - could use links to folding and faulting.

Reply. That's a very good suggestion. I have now wikilinked the terms to Fault (geology). Majoreditor (talk) 18:41, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

• "Most of the canyon's rock formations consist of sandstone; shale layers below the sandstone are marked by pine trees." - appears to be unreferenced.

Reply. I am adding a citation. Majoreditor (talk) 03:20, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

* "Over 200 million years ago a great ocean covered the modern day park." - consider a different word than 'great' - great in this context may imply something other than size.

Reply. I have changed "great ocean to "ocean". The adjective isn't needed. Majoreditor (talk) 01:18, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

* "but slowly the water subsided" - I may be wrong here but I thought that it was land that subsides, not water?

Reply. "Subside" can mean either sink or descend; the former meaning won't work here, but the latter will. I'll change the verb to "recede". Majoreditor (talk) 01:24, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

• "until the rim of the canyon was a beach on this ocean" - does the ocean have a name at all? Given its size, one would assume that it would have a scientific name.

Reply. I've tried to determine which of the ancient oceans the sources refer to, but I cannot tell for certain. It may be the Tethys Ocean, but I cannot tell for sure. I'll research this one a bit further. Majoreditor (talk) 04:04, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Still no luck figuring out this one. I have reached out to a Wikipedia geologist for assistance. Majoreditor (talk) 03:01, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

• "As the great ocean dried the creek took over and continued eroding the rock" - 'great' again, also, what did the creek take over? It isn't clear until this point that anything was being eroded while the ocean was extant.

Reply. I have removed the adjective "great" and will clarify the wording describing the erosion. Majoreditor (talk) 19:20, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

::::Which Creek - Daniel, or Bear — or a prehistoric Creek? Parrot of Doom (talk) 10:56, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

It was Sitton Gulch Creek and its two tributaries, Bear Creek and Daniels Creek. I will clarify the wording in the article. Majoreditor (talk) 02:55, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

* "The sandstone has a tendency to fracture into squarish blocks, creating unusual boulder formations" - consider a better word than 'squarish'. Also, where is the sandstone?

Reply. I will eliminate "squarish" and check on where the sandstone occurs. Majoreditor (talk) 02:23, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

According to the New Georgia Encyclopedia, "sandstone bluffs that form the edge of the plateau". [1] I'll add that to the article. Majoreditor (talk) 04:09, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

• "The concave shape of the top of Lookout Mountain drains rainwater through fissures into the underlying limestone" - it might be an idea to mention before this point that the top of the mountain is concave.

see below

* "The concave shape of the top of Lookout Mountain drains rainwater through fissures into the underlying limestone. This action formed miles of caves in the area." - appears to be unreferenced.

Reply. I have added a citation and made some minor alterations to the prose so that hopefully it flows better. Take a look and let me knwo what you think. Majoreditor (talk) 02:21, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

What are your thoughts on the change, Parrot? Majoreditor (talk) 03:10, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

It reads much better, I'm still not quite sure why the top of Lookout Mountain is concave, but I can at least picture how it formed. Parrot of Doom (talk) 08:45, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Hiking trails

• It might be an idea to insert a short sentence at the top of this section, something like "The park authorities have, over the years, built x and x, and installed x". It makes the flow into wheelchairs and trails a little easier to understand.

Reply. I have added an introductory sentence which hopefully makes the prose flow better. Majoreditor (talk) 02:00, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

I was going to add 'man-made' but I'm uncertain if all of them are, or if some are natural, or animal-made. Can you confirm, either way? Parrot of Doom (talk) 11:03, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

I am fairly certain that all of them are man-made and date from modern times. However, I cannot find a source which discusses the construction of the trail. How do you suggest that I handle this? I'd prefer not to say that they are man-made unless I can point to a RS which says so. Majoreditor (talk) 01:11, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Well my suggestion would be that anyone who uses a wheelchair on such a slope is obviously missing some brain cells, so we should leave it :) Parrot of Doom (talk) 08:46, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

* "The park also features three more extensive hiking trails, including one backpacking trail. These trails are generally moderate in difficulty." - appears to be unreferenced.

Reply. I agree that it's wise to add citations for statements on trail difficulty, as such statements may be challenged. I am adding an appropriate citations; the best and most reliable source I can find is Hiking Georgia. Majoreditor (talk) 06:31, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

* "The Waterfalls Trail begins on a paved section, at the main overlook, and progresses into the canyon on a 40-degree slope." - I'm presuming that wheelchairs cannot use this?

Reply. To the best of my knowledge wheelchairs can't be used on the Waterfall Trail. However, I cannot find a reliable source which mentions wheelchair usage or restrictions on the trail. I would never even consider taking a wheelchair on the trail as portions of it are steep and have surfaces which are far from smooth. Majoreditor (talk) 20:10, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

It might be an idea to clarify this in the line about the paved wheelchair trail, for instance (for disabled visitors, a paved wheel...) or similar. It isn't strictly necessary though. Parrot of Doom (talk) 11:06, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

* "Both waterfalls cascade off of sheer faces at 60 and 90 feet (27 m), and are among the most beautiful in the state." - 'beautiful', again WP:Peacock

Reply. I am removing the phrase "and are among the most beautiful in the state"; I cant' find a source which supports the assertion. (and honestly, there are a dozen waterfalls in Georgia which are better, according to one of the waterfall guidebooks.) Majoreditor (talk) 21:44, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

* "The first waterfall is at 0.3 miles (0.48 km); the second waterfall, at the bottom of the canyon, appears at 0.5 miles (0.80 km). The creek flow feeding the waterfalls varies considerably according to the season." - appears to be unreferenced. Also, I'm presuming that the distances are measured from the start of the trail? If so, that needs pointing out.

Reply. I have added a citation and changed the language to point out the distance from the trailhead. Majoreditor (talk) 01:43, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

* "It is a scenic hike which offers panoramic views of the canyon. Beginning at the Daniels Creek Bridge, and climbing out of the canyon onto the plateau, the trail provides magnificent views of Trenton, Georgia, neighboring Sand Mountain, and of Cloudland Canyon itself. Cottages, West Rim, and Walk-In Camping areas are accessible via the West Rim Loop. Passing over varied terrain, most of the hike is moderately difficult, becoming strenuous on several short sections." - appears to be completely unreferenced, also, 'magnificent' - wp:peacock.

Reply. I have removed the term "magnificent", although it appears in the referenced work; it's not needed here. I have also added a citation.

* "The trail, which begins at the parking area for group camping, passes through hemlock groves, progressing down a moderate grade into a hollow, filled with spring and summer flowers. On the far end of the loop hikers emerge from the hemlocks groves, back to level trail among oaks and hickories, and eventually return to the parking area." - appears to be unreferenced.

Reply. I have added a citation. Majoreditor (talk) 07:50, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Facilities and activities

* "The East Rim has 24 of the campsites along a loop" - what is a loop in this context?

Reply. This refers to a loop road.I will clarify the text. Majoreditor (talk) 01:31, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

• "The West Rim Campground, located across the gorge and away from the park's busiest section, is located in thick forest and hosts approximately 48 campsites spread along two loops. It too offers bathing facilities." - appears to be unreferenced.

Reply. I have added a citation (Molloy, p12) Majoreditor (talk) 07:38, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Are the bathing facilities included in that reference? If so, move the citation to the end of the sentence. Parrot of Doom (talk) 11:11, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

The citation also mentions bathing facilities. I am enacting your suggestion and move the citation to the end of the appropriate sentence. Majoreditor (talk) 03:08, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

* "Also in the park are picnicking areas including a group pavilion, tennis courts, a children’s playground and a disc golf course. The park has an interpretive center near the main parking lot and adjacent to the canyon." - as above.

Reply. I will add a reference. Perhaps the best one to use is the park's own website. Majoreditor (talk) 07:24, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Its a nice article but needs work. Reading it makes me want to go on holiday there! I'll place the review on hold until the above issues are addressed. Please insert your responses to each point underneath that point, indenting it with a colon or two. Please don't strikethrough anything you've resolved - allow me that honour. Parrot of Doom (talk) 17:22, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the comments, Parrot. I'll start reading through them shortly and address your concerns. Best, Majoreditor (talk) 18:44, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

I've addressed each point or asked for clarification. Take a look tomorrow and let's see where we stand. Cheers, Majoreditor (talk) 02:23, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

References

A few minor questions:

* Alden, Peter - doesn't appear in the list of citations

• Appalachian Plateau.. - as above
• Nutt, Alex - as above

If material from these publications is not in the article body, then these entries should be in the 'further reading' section.

• Pfitzer - middle name appears to be W. - should be included for extra clarity (eg Donald W.) Parrot of Doom (talk) 11:31, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Reply. I have removed Alden and Nutt. I thought I would use them but decided not to, so they should come out. I have ended up using Appalachian Plateau in a new citation, so I've kept it. I have added Pfitzer's middle initial. Majoreditor (talk) 04:07, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

:::What happened to the 'Brown' book? Also, and this is pedantic and minor of me, but I'd place the earlier Pfitzer book above the later one, in the list. That's just my OCD coming out to play... Parrot of Doom (talk) 08:50, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Woops, I ddin't see that Brown was missing. I'll add it and re-order the Pfitzer editions. Majoreditor (talk) 17:32, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Pass

• Well-written: Y
• Factually accurate and verifiable: Y
• Broad in its coverage: Y
• Neutral: Y
• Stable: Y
• Illustrated, if possible, by images: Y

Parrot of Doom (talk) 17:59, 18 July 2009 (UTC)