Talk:Colin O'Brady

27 May 2016

Where was O'Brady on 27 May 2016? The Explorers Grand Slam list indicates he summited Denali. The Three Poles Challenge list indicates he summited Everest. Neither list is referenced, so I can't check. 67.142.112.1 (talk) 21:55, 27 December 2018 (UTC)

He was on Denali. Everest was on 19 May 2016. I've edited and added a source. Karichisholm (talk) 07:46, 31 January 2019 (UTC)

Controversy

This section is being removed as it looks like an essay about how someone is disputing it being a record. According to WP:CONTROVERSY, we avoid such sections. From the references I find, the large majority don't say anything about a controversy. If there is one, Wikipedia is not a place to discuss it unless there secondary reliable sources that report what is said, and you factor in how much weight needs to be given. The opening paragraph also says "see Colin O'Brady controversy" which is not within WP:NPOV. --RTotzke (talk) 01:47, 10 May 2019 (UTC)

The section on the controversy about the Antarctic crossing claim is a fundamental and critical piece of information to the story. Deleting the facts that O'Brady followed a paved and marked ice highway which enabled him to travel faster than possible without aid completely misrepresent the facts. Without this massive amount of aid, he would not have come close to succeeding. He would have run out of food a week before reaching the glacier. Removing this information is the same as failing to say a professional golfer used a cart during a tournament. Or, put another way, not writing that a mountain climber was air-lifted to within 100 meters of a summit and then claiming they "climbed" the mountain. This massive deletion completely changes what happened and fully distorts the information for future readers. Should any other people attempt a crossing in this manner without knowing the ice highway "cheat," they will be left dangerously ignorant. There is no controversy that O'Brady followed the ice highway. Deleting this information is similar to saying Columbus rowed across the Atlantic. The controversial perspective is not held by a few minor players or news sources. These are the most respected professionals in the field and Explorersweb.com is the most trusted, reliable, quoted and only dedicated expedition news source available. The major U.S. national news sources that reported this story completely failed to investigate and report the claims and omitted information, thus misrepresenting the facts to the public and biasing the story. Elellilrah (talk) 14:01, 14 May 2019 (UTC)

"The major U.S. national news sources that reported this story completely failed to investigate and report the claims and omitted information, thus misrepresenting the facts to the public and biasing the story." - That is unfortunate as Wikipedia relies on what can be verified through reliable sources. That is exactly why I removed it because the major news sources didn't report on it. If we included the information to correct the "misrepresenting [of] the facts," that would be considered WP:OR and righting great wrongs which is not acceptable in Wikipedia. Until it is established in reliable sources that this is in fact a controversy, it would be a violation of the three core values of WP:BLP (NPOV, no original research, and Verifiability). --RTotzke (talk) 18:51, 18 May 2019 (UTC)

The controversy has been reported on by a wide variety of sources that are highly reliable. Wikipedia should not only depend on US news media to validate an article --- the worlds foremost polar experts, main polar news site and European media be more than sufficient enough. I would suggest either to remove all mentions of O'Brady's expedition being a world first -- or mention the controversy. It is not encyclopedic to mention an expedition as a "world first" when it surely is not. --Murk (talk) 00:14, 17 June 2019 (UTC)

The news sources that reported on this expedition completely failed to investigate following the SPOT. These sources are not unbiased at all, as they're running a business and are beholden to advertising dollars. If they shared that O'Brady, in fact, was supported and aided, their story would have been completely different. Everyone I've shared these details with looked utterly shocked and lied to because they were.Elellilrah (talk) 14:01, 17 June 2019 (UTC)

"news sources that reported on this expedition completely failed to investigate" - This is the very reason why Wikipedia should not be the place to correct the information. It needs to be published in reliable secondary sources in order to be part of Wikipedia. It sounds like the media failed to do its duty when evaluating the claims, but it is reported as such in many national and international publications that covered the journey. --RTotzke (talk) 20:19, 17 June 2019 (UTC)

This matter has been discussed in more reliable sources, but unfortunately they weren't cited. I agree that "...cross the land mass of Antarctica, solo, unaided and unsupported" without proper context is incomplete at best and seriously misleading at worst. Goes for Rudd's article too, of course. RTotzke, this is less "righting great wrongs" as it is getting things straight. Now, I am glad our article spends only two sentences on it without unduly blowing the whole thing up, but still: while his effort, and that of Rudd, is admirable, it should be noted that calling the "first unaided" etc. is really misleading in many ways. The question is, can we verify this better and write it up in a neutral and comprehensive way. Drmies (talk) 00:24, 17 June 2019 (UTC)

Drmies I think we can add something, keeping BLP guidelines in mind. The main issue about RGW comes from the users only editing this page. I don't think we should put play-by-play in a BLP such as the long section that is listed below. This is a WP:UNDUE issue. If we can find a reliable source that says that it is disputed, I think a sentence stating such could be placed in the body. One issue, as mentioned by the SPA accounts is that the news doesn't even cover it the way it should. That's why I cited RGW as I am always cautious about people using Wikipedia to correct misinformation. We need to stick with the reliable sources. On a side note, we could probably include more details about the issue on a page related to the crossing if there is something available. Let me look through some of the sourcing better and propose some wording for everyone to discuss. --RTotzke (talk) 19:58, 17 June 2019 (UTC)

Looking closer, it appears that one person who I found as a professor (listed as a journalist in one reference which doesn't appear correct) is one who is disputing this, but I am not sure there are enough reliable sources picking up the disputed claim. I proposed wording below, but not sure if that is even appropriate given the weight of the sources that claim it was unsupported and unassisted. Would love feedback when you have a minute. It could be an issue of the media "completely fail[ing] to investigate and report the claims and omitted information" as stated by a user above. --RTotzke (talk) 20:22, 17 June 2019 (UTC)

To better inform the public of the issue, below are the data points that were omitted in the Wikipedia story. It isn't "Righting great wrongs" but in fact reporting on what actually happened. O'Brady's GPS data shows he followed the SPOT exactly. It is a known graded ice route with flags for navigational aid. This is absolutely critical to the story. It's like omitting someone few to the South Pole and claimed to have gotten there without saying they flew. This information is provided to inform future polar explorers of the risk of following O'Brady's information, believing they can do a crossing like this without fully knowing the facts.

Original controversy information:

In December 2018 O’Brady completed a crossing of parts of Antarctica (excluding the ice shelves of Filchner-Ronne and Ross), the first unaided and unsupported solo crossing of the land mass of Antarctica.[9][10] Multiple polar explorers and experts (see Colin O'Brady#Controversy) say that his crossing was neither unaided nor a complete geographical crossing. O’Brady followed the South Pole Traverse (a groomed and flagged ice highway) for over 300 miles, eliminating the unaided status,[11] making the expedition indirectly guided and artificially unsupported (see Colin O'Brady#Controversy).

Controversy

The route of the first solo crossing of Antarctica, made by Børge Ousland in 1996-97, and that of Colin O'Brady in 2018. O'Brady's claim of being "the first person in history to traverse the continent of Antarctica coast to coast solo, unsupported and unaided"[38] is disputed by polar explorers and experts, including Eric Phillips, Damien Gildea, David Roberts, Mike Horn, Aleksander Gamme, Eric Larsen, Roam Media, Explorer's Web, Gear Junkie and Børge Ousland for two main reasons: that O'Brady was aided by traveling on the McMurdo-South Pole Highway,[12] and that the expedition was not a proper "coast to coast crossing".[12][13][14][35][39][15][40] Larsen, who has guided O'Brady in the Antarctic, said: "to claim an unsupported crossing is an outright lie".[41] The renowned Explorers Club did not acknowledge the traverse as a "world first" in their mention of the expedition.[42] Many do still think that the first solo, unsupported and unaided crossing was done by Børge Ousland.[43][44]

The McMurdo-South Pole Highway, or the South Pole Traverse, was constructed by leveling snow and filling in crevasses, flags mark its route so no navigation is needed.[13] Polar veteran Eric Philips commented to Explorer's web: "It is a highway that more than doubles someone’s speed and negates the need for navigation. An expedition cannot be classed as unassisted if someone is skiing on a road".[45]

By excluding the ice shelves O'Brady significantly shortened the route compared to predecessors from both pioneering exploration (Amundsen, Scott, etc.) and modern solo travelers (Ousland, Gjeldnes, Horn, etc.)[46][47][48] His starting point is called the "The Messner Start" (after Reinhold Messner), but Messner himself said that this starting point made an incomplete crossing of the Antarctic.[38] Børge Ousland, the first to ever do a solo crossing of Antarctica, travelled twice the distance of O'Brady.[49] Ousland has on several occasions commented that the only way to rightfully claim a crossing is to include the ice shelves: "These huge ice shelves are 600 to 800 meters thick, and they've been there for more than 100,000 years, long before countries like Denmark and the Netherlands existed".[50]

O'Brady's average daily distance from the Messner start to the South Pole was approximately 14.7 miles per day. From the South Pole to Leverett Glacier his speed was approximately 20.7 miles per day based on the GPS tracking data from his personal website.[51] The 41% increase in speed was due to following the South Pole Traverse for over 300 miles, making the trek substantially easier. This flagged route generally eliminates the need for compass navigation in whiteout conditions. The groomed path also eliminates sastrugi, making travel easier compared to the paths of other noted explorers. By following a marked and groomed path for such a substantial distance, the expedition becomes aided and partially guided, contrary to O'Brady's claims.[52]

For comparison, Ousland skied 1,768 miles fully across Antarctica in 1996–1997.[53] It would have taken O'Brady 120 days at his unassisted speed to complete a full Antarctic crossing.

According to O'Brady's website, he brought 60 days worth of food but only had 58 days worth of supplies according to his Instagram feed.[51][54] At his average speed of 14.7 miles per day without the assistance of the South Pole Traverse, he would have required a minimum of 64 days to reach the edge of Leverett Glacier barring any weather or physical delays to complete the 933 mile trek. He would have needed to ration his food, decrease his calorie intake, travel slower, and extend his expedition beyond his available supplies.[55] O'Brady posted on his Instagram feed that he and Rudd only had 2 days of food remaining between them on day 57 of O'Brady's expedition[54] meaning O'Brady effectively only had 58 days of food. Should O'Brady have been unable to follow the South Pole Traverse, he would have been short a week of food. He would have needed to be resupplied like Japanese explorer Masatatsu Abe.[55] Using the assistance of the South Pole Traverse artificially gave O'Brady the ability to claim an unsupported expedition.[56]

Additionally, while early explorers coped with the solitude of Antarctica and had to navigate by compass and the sun during the day, O'Brady had outside contact and used GPS devices.[14] He chronicled his journey on Instagram in the form of a modern day blog[57] and his expedition was publicly trackable using an accurate Garmin GPS tracking device.[58] His location was mapped[59] and shared live, transparently for the world to see and follow along.[60] He also spoke to his wife, Jenna Besaw, regularly by satellite phone.[14] Along with O'Brady's mother, Besaw assisted during his crossing to calculate how to use his food rations during the crossing and how to optimize his nutrition intake.[61]

References: "Crossing Antarctica: How the Confusion Began and Where Do We Go From Here".

Skolnick, Adam (December 26, 2018). "Colin O'Brady Completes Crossing of Antarctica With Final 32-Hour Push". The New York Times. ISSN 0362-4331. Retrieved December 26, 2018.
"Crossing Antarctica: How the Confusion Began and Where Do We Go From Here". Explorersweb. Retrieved January 10, 2019.
"Why Norway is Pissed". ROAM. January 2, 2019. Retrieved January 12, 2019.
"Aventureiros contam perigos e desafios de travessia sem auxílio da Antártida". Folha de S.Paulo (in Portuguese). January 26, 2019. Retrieved March 12, 2019.
Kailus, Julie (January 18, 2019). "Easiest Route to Fame: Is Polar Exploration Becoming a Speed Play?". GearJunkie. Retrieved March 3, 2019.
"The Explorers Club -". www.explorers.org. Retrieved March 3, 2019.
Tison, Marie. "Controverse en Antarctique". La Presse (in French). Retrieved March 12, 2019.
"A primeira travessia solo da Antártida?". Gazeta do Povo (in Portuguese). Retrieved March 12, 2019.
"O'Brady's Antarctic Crossing: Was It Really Unassisted?". Explorersweb. Retrieved January 7, 2019.
"Antarctica 2018-2019: O'Brady, Rudd Finish; Abe Resupplies". Explorersweb. Retrieved December 30, 2018.
Widermag. "L'exploit de Colin O'Brady en Antarctique surpasse t-il celui de Mike Horn ?". Wider, le magazine outdoor : accueil (in French). Retrieved January 7, 2019.
"Adventurestats.com". www.adventurestats.com. Retrieved January 10, 2019.
Elster, Kristian (December 27, 2018). "Børge Ousland sier han gikk nesten dobbelt så langt som Colin O'Brady". NRK (in Norwegian Bokmål). Retrieved January 7, 2019.
Wieners, Brad (February 20, 2018). "Before Henry Worsley, There Was Børge Ousland". Outside Online. Retrieved January 7, 2019.
"Colin O'Brady".
"Antarctica 2018-2019: Jenny Davis' Close Call, An Eventful Season Nears Its End".
"Why Norway is Pissed".
"Day 57: PURGATORY".
"Antarctica final recap".
"O'Brady's Antarctic Crossing: Was It Really Unassisted?".
"Colin O'Brady (@colinobrady) • Instagram photos and videos". instagram.com. Retrieved January 3, 2019.
"Colin O'Brady". share.garmin.com. Retrieved January 3, 2019.
"ZeroSixZero - Colin O'Brady - Impossible First". z6z.co. Retrieved January 3, 2019.
"Impossible First". Colin O'Brady. Retrieved January 3, 2019.
"Colin O'Brady on Instagram: "Day 44: TAKING STOCK. The reason it's been often said that this traverse is impossible is because of that fact that without resupply, it's…"". Instagram. Retrieved December 30, 2018.

Elellilrah (talk) 14:01, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

Elellilrah, "reporting on what actually happened" is something that is considered WP:OR. We need to report on what the sources say per WP:VNT. We also need to consider that WP:BLP doesn't allow for original research, requires that things are verifiable, and that everything is written from a WP:NPOV. I will propose some wording in a little bit for everyone to discuss, but am reverting the removal of "unsupported" and "unassisted" for now as that is what the most reliable sources say. The other edits with the actual path seems okay as it is a one sentence summary of the route as opposed to the numerous paragraphs and map that were there prior. --RTotzke (talk) 20:03, 17 June 2019 (UTC)

I also started a draft for Louis Rudd if anyone is interested in contributing.--RTotzke (talk) 20:35, 17 June 2019 (UTC)

Proposal 1

The source I find that talks about it being disputed is the Adventure Journal. If we are to assume it is notable (seems to have [https://www.adventure-journal.com/about-3/ editorial standards), then that is what we can use for the wording. --RTotzke (talk) 20:08, 17 June 2019 (UTC)

Current version:

On December 26, 2018, O’Brady completed a solo solo and unsupported crossing of parts of Antarctica from the Messner start to the beginning of the Ross Ice Shelf by following the South Pole Overland Traverse ice highway. He completed the 932 mile journey in 54 days.

References

Proposed version:

On December 26, 2018, O’Brady completed a solo solo and unsupported crossing of parts of Antarctica from the Messner start to the beginning of the Ross Ice Shelf by following the South Pole Overland Traverse ice highway. He completed the 932 mile journey in 54 days, finishing ahead of explorer Louis Rudd who was also attempting the feat. Professor Peter Winsor has disputed the claim that the trek was unassisted.

References

• This is useful. If you put "unassisted" in quotes that would be good. Personally, I am less interested in that assistance matter--typically we'd take that as meaning no food drops, no kites, no dogs, etc. It's kind of odd, given that for instance GPS is a HUGE assistance, but OK. I am a bit more interested in the phrasing of "THIS IS THE FIRST TIME EVER THAT SOMEONE etc.", because however that is phrased, it invites comparison with earlier treks which were, by all accounts, longer and harder and less assisted. Anyone who followed Brady on Instagram (posts that were in many ways totally trite) or Rudd on his blog (less trite) should have noticed that both men carefully avoided discussing the highway they were on, and of course they had no navigational problems. Meaning that calling these treks the "first" of anything needs to be either avoided or seriously contextualized. The "parts of Antarctica" phrasing helps in that. Drmies (talk) 22:44, 17 June 2019 (UTC)

Drmies, Okay. Sounds good. I implemented the content as there has been no other comments here for a week. I included the quotations for "unassisted." --RTotzke (talk) 21:30, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

There are a lot of revisions that have taken place to this article regarding his trek in Antarctica. I want to point out to users that Wikipedia is not the place to "set the record straight" or "right great wrongs." We use secondary sources (yes, including the National Geographic article), to include things with an appropriate WEIGHT (emphasis on weight). One article does not negate what dozens of other articles state. It would be appropriate to include information about it in the body of the article, but again, giving appropriate weight. Would say we need consensus due to this being a biography. --RTotzke (talk) 23:25, 13 February 2020 (UTC)

I also find it strange that it happens to be four SPA accounts and IP addresses adding this information which leads me to believe people are trying to introduce their point of view into the Wikipedia article. Would strongly advise to have consensus before any additional is added. I also reworded one of the sentences which was a copyright violation. --RTotzke (talk) 23:32, 13 February 2020 (UTC)