Talk:Cora Babbitt Johnson

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	This article was accepted from this draft on 4 April 2024 by reviewer Crunchydillpickle (talk · contribs).

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A fact from Cora Babbitt Johnson appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 21 June 2024 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that the efforts of Cora Babbitt Johnson helped delay the construction of Mount Rushmore until 1927?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2024/June. The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Cora Babbitt Johnson.

Wikipedia

Better Source for Early Opposition

It seems that her impact on the monument is primarily covered in one blog and one undergraduate thesis that is too new to have made an actual impact on scholarship.

Another issue is that Rex Alan Smith's book seems to have problems in the way of reliability and the same can be said for Gilbert C. Fite's book.

There are plenty of primary sources listed in the undergrad thesis, but I'm not sure if it's ethical to cite those without citing the thesis.

Could someone spend a little time researching this? I might be missing sources. Borg Axoim (talk) 02:03, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by AirshipJungleman29 talk 14:46, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Comment or view
Article history

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~~... that early environmentalists like Cora Babbitt Johnson almost prevented the carving of Mount Rushmore?~~ Source: Smith, Rex Alan (January 1, 1985). The Carving of Mount Rushmore. New York City: Abbeville Press. pp. chapter 2 and chapter 5; Fite, Gilbert Courtland (1952). Mount Rushmore. Internet Archive. Norman : University of Oklahoma Press; Merritt, Riley (2024-04-01). "Borglum's Horse Flies: The Early Opposition to Mount Rushmore". Honors College Theses.
- Reviewed:

5x expanded by Borg Axoim (talk) and Crunchydillpickle (talk).

Number of QPQs required: 0. Nominator has less than 5 past nominations.

Post-promotion hook changes will be logged on the talk page; consider watching the nomination until the hook appears on the Main Page.

Borg Axoim (talk) 16:27, 14 April 2024 (UTC).[reply]

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
Cited: Interesting:

QPQ: Done.

Overall: The nominated article has one paragraph without a citation. The uncited paragraph could be supported in part by pages 11 and 121 of Mount Rushmore by Gilbert C. Fite, it talks about the Hot Springs Star's editorial stance. https://archive.org/details/mountrushmore00univ/page/121 I also suggest that an alternate wording like "that early environmentalists like Cora Babbitt Johnson almost prevented..." rather than the current wording. Update:Thanks to Mary Mark Ockerbloom for working on the reference problems on the article. Do either of the two nominators, Borg Axoim or Crunchydillpickle, have any final thoughts or last minute suggestions? 🌿MtBotany (talk) 03:52, 29 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No further comments, but I think we're good to go. Letting Borg Axoim and Crunchydillpickle know that its approved. 🌿MtBotany (talk) 23:04, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- @Borg Axoim, @Crunchydillpickle and @MtBotany Where does the wiki article state that the carving of Mount Rushmore was "almost prevented?" Unless there's genuine evidence from the cited source that the project was almost going to be shut down (if so, that should be added in), letters of opposition, protests, and halts do not equal "preventions." This needs to be addressed first before promotion. PrimalMustelid (talk) 19:46, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  - You're right, PrimalMustelid sloppy reviewing on my part. One of the project's promotors (Robinson) said that her editorials against the project, "might produce a real disaster." The strongest that could be said is something like "environmentalists delayed the carving of Mount Rushmore" and I don't know that such as statement would be surprising/interesting. If Borg Axoim or Crunckydillpickle are interested in a rewrite of the hook there is a lot of support for something like "the artist who carved Mt. Rushmore called Cora Johnson and other environmentalists opponents "horseflies"." 🌿MtBotany (talk) 17:45, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  - PrimalMustelid and MtBotany, you're right that the wording may not be ideal. Two of the sources (Fite and Merritt) mention how Cora Babbitt Johnson swayed the South Dakota governor against the project and that he delayed the project severely. Given that, I think it would be fair to say something like "Cora Babbitt Johnson and other environmentalists lobbied South Dakota governor Carl Gunderson, who halted the Mount Rushmore project until the end of his term". Would that be interesting enough? It could still use some rewriting. User:Borg_Axoim 7:45, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
ALT1 ... that Gutzon Borglum, the carver of Mount Rushmore, referred to Cora Babbitt Johnson as an "agent of evil"? Source: Smith, Rex Alan (January 1, 1985). The Carving of Mount Rushmore. New York City: Abbeville Press. "So vitriolic were her attacks that Borglum would refer to her only as 'that Hot Springs person,' describing her as 'an agent of evil.'" Hooky, makes you want to click through and find out why. Mary Mark Ockerbloom (talk) 21:40, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Borg Axoim: thoughts on ALT1? If okay, review needed for it (hopefully from MtBotany). theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 19:19, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@theleekycauldron I think ALT1 is good. I have some small concerns about the Rex Alan Smith source, primarily that it doesn't cite info and has clear bias, but I like the rewrite. user: Borg_Axoim 12:55, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

ALT2: ... that the efforts of Cora Babbitt Johnson delayed the construction of Mount Rushmore until 1927?--Laun chba ller 02:17, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

New reviewer needed to check the ALT hooks. Many thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 03:40, 7 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Borg Axoim and Launchballer: My preference would be for ALT2, but could I get the page for that? I have difficulties finding it in either of the sources given. (You can add the page easily with {{rp|<page number>}} (Template:Rp) right after the citation, if you don't want to change the whole citation style. I usually do that.)

Will approve if the page is given, otherwise I could go with ALT1, even though it feels more generic and doesn't highlight the achievements as nicely. –LordPeterII (talk) 20:08, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I note that the nominator hasn't edited since 22 May. Page 56 of [1] (as linked to in ref #16) states that Gunderson obstructed the project as much as possible; page 63 says that Gunderson was replaced by Bulow. Page 64 states that Johnson stepped down from the Hot Springs Star in February 1927, and page 67 says that construction began in 1927.--Laun chba ller 10:14, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks for stepping in then, Launchballer, and giving the pages. However, as I was previously reprimanded (a bit) for not checking hooks throughly enough, I am hestitant to approve ALT2 as-is: Her efforts were certainly influential, but the source states that other causes might have contributed to Gunderson's opposition. Maybe a modified ALT2 with something like "helped delay", which makes that more clear? –LordPeterII (talk) 13:35, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm struggling to think of another equally concise way of putting it, and I suspect 'contributed towards delaying' would get WP:DYKTRIMmed to that, so I propose ALT2a: ... that the efforts of Cora Babbitt Johnson helped delay the construction of Mount Rushmore until 1927?.--Laun chba ller 13:42, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah I think this is the best option, or at least I can think of none better. I hope it's fine if I approve since I kinda suggested the change; but trout me if it's not, I don't want to have this sit in waiting for eternity.

Approve ALT2a.

(Technically I think ALT1 is also correct, but I don't really like it since it says "person X thought person Y was bad", which doesn't say much about person Y and puts her in a bad light. Thus, I'm not approving that one.) –LordPeterII (talk) 12:13, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@LordPeterII and Launchballer: I don't see the hook cited in the article, can you help me find it? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 15:34, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Fourth paragraph: "She also wrote letters of protest to South Dakota governor Carl Gunderson, who had previously signed the creation of the Mount Rushmore National Memorial Association into law, and swayed him against the project.[16] Through that effort, Gunderson reportedly regretted signing the legislation into law and used his influence to halt the project until William J. Bulow replaced him as governor in 1927;[2][16] construction began in August 1927.[2]" I just added that last clause to spell out that it started then. Was there another bit you was struggling to find?--Laun chba ller 15:44, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]