Talk:Cormac Murphy-O'Connor

Richard Hill

Why is there no mention in this article of the Richard Hill affair? There are a couple of links below that reference to it and it is an extremely important event in the Cardinal's lifetime that people must know about. I am going to add a little bit on the affair.

Condoms and Moral and Ecclesiastical Law

The BBC tried questioning Primate Cormac Murphy O'Connor before his journey to demonstrate at Edinburgh recently , about the Catholic church's attitude to prevention of Aids through the greater use of Condoms His unsatisfactory , nigh evasive , answers provoke a further questioning .

Humanae Vitae states that no member of the church can possibly deny that the church is competent in her magisterium to interpret natural moral law. The encyclical further states that God has wisely ordered laws of nature . However ,as we all know , there is a new biological "law" of infectivity which states that human bodily intercourse can of itself be a death sentence . God's law previous to this new law of cause and effect might have or did appear to be wisely ordained , but the situation now is completely ovetaken by what presumably (in inversion of God ) would be classed as a 'devilish' law but which medically is recognised as being an infective human immuno-deficiency syndrome .

We know that in fact this infectivity is not limited to humans . We know that the result of the infectivity is mortal destruction , irrespective of morality or belief , or, indeed, species . We know that the church's response thus far is to solely countenance abstention from intercourse between humans as solution , whereas we know that the simplest of protective plastic film is enough to protect life ,already in existence ,from this mortal danger .

Here we have a plain contradiction in the natural law trumpeted under the aegis of the Magisterium by Humanae Vitae and ,doubtless, throughout this faith's teaching . The natural law has changed ,however a faith may wish to deny this - the mortality is present and it's virulence exceeds any inverse of God's will (such as the fallen Angel's name earlier mentioned describes-but which we should not use except in this particular theological analysis ).

The belief in Hum. V. is that each man through the exercise of his conjugality , is not the master of the sources of life but rather the minister of the design established by the Creator . Indeed so, and irrefutably , the design is subject now to AIDS (whether through God's will or not is in comparison a theological as opposed to real discourse) . The church -which has always insisted on the inverse of God -the unrepeatable name , is well-placed to therefore recognise that a duality exists now within natural law .

However it appears that the members of the church Hierarchy are in natural and hence , from the above, moral confusion . As natural law has changed and the duality has entered within the very chain of ministry that is conjugality , we see that there is a complete up-ending of the socio-moral order of society . Death is overtaking wide sections of humanity , simply because of their natural adherence to the previous natural order . Marriage is no bar to infectivity , intention is no bar . The Primate's only advice is towards abstinence by all from the most instinctual natural functions of the body , which is an equal up-ending of the natural law , and one which we see financially bankrupting the church following the human failure of its own ecclesiastic's even with their magnificent support system of the Mother Church, providing them with nourishment and care to the grave.

It is not here the intention to simply point to hypocrisy , because this will not further understanding or provide advance. Nevertheless I have to relate this central subject of world concern back to a similar moral problem , that implicated by the teachings of romans 3,8 .This is necessary because the central argument of humanae vitae rests upon the same magisterial or divine law tenets. These state that whilst a lesser evil may be tolerated to prevent a greater evil , that yet , evil shall never be chosen in order to promote a good . HV states though it is sometimes lawful to tolerate a lesser moral evil in order to avoid a greater evil or in order to promote a greater good ,"it is never lawful even for the gravest reasons , to do evil that good may come of it ,-in other words to intend directly something which of its very nature contradicts the moral order...even though the intention is to protect ... an individual .. or society in general .

Laudable injunctions, which I note at length throughout the relevant pages , were broken by Pope Pius XII, Hitler's Pope and his predecessor Pope Pius XI . That is a subject of dispute here on wikipedia and elsewhere . It appears to many historians that indeed the Catholic Church as led at the time , chose actively (in 1932 and 1933 ) to consider Nazism a lesser evil than Communism and was therefore culpable in upending the moral order of society .

The church , in so far as it can operate to defend itself from the accusations and the historical realities (through apologists ) should now recognise that just as it chose then to avail of the lesser evil policy , now it should see the damage considered resultant upon the use of protective condoms to marital structure and promiscuity and actual conception to be clearly the lesser evil given that God (let us use the word) has now inserted the dualism of death into this conjugal ministry of life .

(Ye who would cavil at my use of these pages to raise these issues, as those who cavil at the additions to the historical pages, should deeply consider the morality of your complaints before carping at these words...) Famekeeper 7 July 2005 08:58 (UTC)

FK, those that cavil are those wikipedians that don't consider themselves above the (wiki) law. But I digress. Apart from the fact that your evaluation of the Pius XII situation is wrong, now you are also inconsistent: Only a few lines above this post you called on BXVI to go to the UN make what you call "the Law" a.k.a. as the principle "don't do evil to achieve good", to make this principle international binding law. I considered this simplistic, unrealistic and unpractical. But now, in this post, you are calling on the same BXVI to do the complete opposite, namely to declare an evil, though a lesser evil, good. Yes, I agree using condoms are a lesser evil than spreading AIDS and IMHO the late and the current Pope agree. But it's still evil, according to Catholic morality - and I hope you can muster enough tolerance to at least let us be and follow our consciences.

Very confusing is your remark that "natural law has changed" - no, natural law has not changed, it cannot change, otherwise it wouldn't be natural law. And natural law doesn't change because of the appearance or spreading of a disease. There were other STD here before anyone could spell AIDS.

However, for those you seriously consider the Pope responsible for the spreading of this pandemia, please read the following, non-Catholic articles:

http://www.spiked-online.com/Printable/0000000CA993.htm

http://canadiancoalition.com/forum/messages/7406.shtml

Str1977 20:36, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

I'm not sure if this is the place to debate the Cardinal's views on condoms. However, having met him once or twice, he is certainly a genial and agreeable man. Having said that, it seems that he is deeply conservative, and some might say reactionary. This is not surprising. The previous Pope would not have appointed a liberal to this post. The article seems to convey the correct impression in this context and does not need changing. Millbanks (talk) 07:14, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

It's odd how those who raise this question - even those who actually take the trouble to read the encyclical - choose to ignore the fact that Humanae Vitae concerns itself entirely and exclusively with the sexual behaviour of married couples. It thus has very limited relevance to questions of sexually transmitted diseases such as AIDS, which are spread almost entirely by sexual activity outside marriage. Mhkay (talk) 21:38, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Disputed

Quote from the article: "He had, in fact, been subject to a police investigation on suspicion of having hushed up two serious cases." [1]

What is this? Where is the citation/reference? I am disputing the accuracy of such a comment. Oliver Keenan 11:00, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

I think the sentence should be rewritten based on reports such as the following. http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1469005,00.html http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1020400,00.html – Kaihsu 15:46, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

• It's now nearly a month since this section was out in and nobody has done anything with it. The existing passage was simply a series of blank assertions with no backing evidence or referencing. I've therefore removed this section and anyone who wishes may now re-write without generalistic insinuations. I think this is preferable to having the page marked as disputed when nobody is doing anywthing about it User:lawsonrob 11 June 2006

That scandal almost led to the Cardinal having to resign in 2003, and he had to appear on "Newsnight" to apologize for his "stupid" handling of the case. The article has to mention it because it has been a defining issue of his time as Archbishop of Westminster - many Catholics in England believe he now operates under a doubtful moral authority.

It's mentioned again in private eye this week. Basically when yer man found out one of his priest's was a nonce instead of calling the police he instead got him another job - where he sexually abused some more children. (i cannot sign as i cannot work out where that symbol is on my phone).

University Education

There appears to be a contradiction in the article concerning His Eminence's education: the summary credits him with an STL; the main article sates he obtained a degree in theology AND philosophy. Though a minor point, it needs to be explained. In addition to this, I wasn't aware that pontifical universities offered combined degrees - STB and PhB are the two choices.

He holds an STL and a PhL, consistent with somebody reading on the extended programme at the VEC. As per http://www.rcdow.org.uk/cardinal/default.asp?library_ref=1&content_ref=4 Oliver Keenan 17:09, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. This is also clearly stated in his official Vatican biography: http://www.vatican.va/news_services/press/documentazione/documents/cardinali_biografie/cardinali_bio_murphy-oconnor_c_en.html. Great new pictures, by the way.

Thanks, I uploaded them yesterday. Gavin Scott 20:10, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Polygot

How many languages does His Eminence speak?

Proper name

'Cardinal Cormac...' is incorrect. It should be 'Cormac Cardinal Murphy-O'Connor'. --Sephiroth9611 (talk) 15:21, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

In fact, in the opening line, I just took out the word cardinal altogether. See Camillo Ruini, it just gives his first name and surname, not his title. There should be a formal policy for all cardinals on their names if the title is going to be included. --Sephiroth9611 (talk) 15:25, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

As required by the Manual of Style, titles and forms of address are not used in the names of articles. The article title should be Cormac Murphy-O'Connor. However, the formal style, including suffixes, appears in this part of the template in most articles on holders of offices that bestow titles (see Margaret Thatcher, Charles, Prince of Wales) and should be maintained for consistency, although the practice isn't universal for cardinals.--Lo2u ^{(T • C)} 13:45, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

RENEW

Can anyone provide information on the "renew" programme which Archbishop Murphy-O'Connor implemented when Ordinary in Arundel & Brighton (and I think tried to implement later in Westminster)? Safebreaker (talk) 19:46, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

BBC interview 4-Mar-13

Just dumping this here, 'cos suspect it'll be handy for someone to have tomorrow... Interview on R4 regarding Cardinal Keith O'Brien - 'car crash' radio... [www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21653244 bbc] Doh! nevermind 210.86.28.73 (talk) 10:55, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

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Category - St Gallen Group

I've not seen any evidence that suggests Murphy-O'Connor identified as being a member of the so-called St. Gallen group. Nor that this group is significant enough to merit the addition of a specific category entry. I've removed this category for now. I'd welcome thoughts. Contaldo80 (talk) 14:05, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

Ground of Justice

If anyone is looking for a way to contribute to this entry, the text and citations for immigration and Ground of Justice need attention. Bmclaughlin9 (talk) 13:49, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

Rugby and piano

According to the edition of Last Word broadcast on September 8 2017, and also on Cormac Murphy-O'Connor's obituary on the BBC website, Murphy-O'Connor had talents at rugby and on piano. This could go in the article.Vorbee (talk) 15:29, 8 September 2017 (UTC)

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