Talk:Criticism of Swaminarayan sect

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Verifiability[edit]

In verifying the statements in this article, could you please list the page number referenced for this sentence, “Swaminarayana is also being criticised for being supportive of the caste system”? I was looking in the chapter and couldn’t seem to find it. Moksha88 (talk) 06:06, 27 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Moksha88 click on the link, you’ll be landed on the page which states this.— Harshil want to talk? 06:56, 27 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Page numbers are missing for the citations from Kirin Narayan's book and a reference is needed for the claim "Swaminarayan was criticized because he received large gifts from his followers and dressed and traveled as a Maharaja even though he had taken the vows of renunciation of the world. Apollo1203 (talk) 13:03, 27 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Harshil169: Kirin Narayan source still needs page numbers. If you could tell me the chapter name, or page range, I can deliver you a PDF of chapter from Paywall database, so that you can add page numbers. Or you can use an online copy on Google books. --Gazal world (talk) 20:36, 30 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Gazal world: Let me give some time. When I opened this book in the Google book then page numbers were not visible and others pages were not in preview. What we have to do is searching by words. Regards,— Harshil want to talk? 02:28, 1 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Contradictory Claims[edit]

As I was verifying the source, Chapter 6 (Sahajanand Swami's Approach to Caste), in the same reference used to cite “Swaminarayana is also being criticised for being supportive of the caste system,” contains many statements that refute that Swaminarayan was supportive of the caste system. For example: "[Sahajanand Swami's] principles of atma and Paramatama undergirded Sahajanand Swami's rejection of caste discrimination and distinction" (page 125). This is contradictory to what is being stated in this article. Apollo1203 (talk) 13:16, 27 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I have added the page number for the quote cited in the article. As I have used the Oxford Scholarship Online copy, I have changed the URL from Google book to Oxford Scholarship, which is behind the paywall database. If you want to refer the chapter, feel free to ask me, I will deliver you a PDF of the chapter through mail. Thanks. --Gazal world (talk) 20:33, 30 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Introduction Verifiability[edit]

Removed the sentence ‘situation of women in the Swaminarayan sect’ due to lack of source and no mention in the body of the article. This violates policy WP:VERIFIABILITY.Treehugger8891 (talk) 01:35, 2 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I have reinstated it as Kajal Oza Vaidhya had recently took a dig at Nilkanth varni for situation of women.-- Harshil want to talk? 04:49, 2 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Either way, it was never reflected in the article since its creation on September 20th. Please create a section which outlines the criticism before including it in the lead sentence WP:CREATELEAD.Moksha88 (talk) 03:07, 6 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
All things will be added. First resolve pending changes then create another issue.-- Harshil want to talk? 04:33, 6 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
We should remove that line (situation of woman...) from the lead. Because Kaajal Oza Vaidya is not scholar in the field. We don't take seriously her opinion. --Gazal world (talk) 05:04, 6 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Harshil169: You are right, WP:CREATELEAD is not a formal policy, just an essay. I meant to quote MOS:LEAD: "Apart from basic facts, significant information should not appear in the lead if it is not covered in the remainder of the article." This article has been in existence for 2 weeks, and this point has not been addressed. When it has been addressed, you can include it in the lead paragraph. Moksha88 (talk) 05:15, 6 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Harshil169: I believe there are some good points brought up here in this discussion, having said that I believe after thoroughly reading the WP:VERIFIABILITY policy, Kaajal Oza Vaidya's opinion on this matter doesn't seem relevant. I would have to agree with the line of reasoning laid out by Treehugger8891 ThaNDNman224 (talk) 15:24, 6 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Moksha88 that information should not appear in the lead if it is not covered in the remainder of the article, and it seems that consensus has also been reached on this point, so I am removing it. I have also removed the mention of Murari Bapu in the lead since it is no longer in the article.This will certainly change as the article changes.Sacredsea (talk) 19:23, 6 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Dayanand Saraswati's opinion: [WP:FRINGE], [WP:UNDUE]?[edit]

@Harshil169: I was able to find Kirin Narayan's book and realize your excerpts differed from what was in the text. I therefore edited it in accordance with WP:NOR, specifically WP:STICKTOSOURCE. In reviewing the actual context from which this assertion is cited, could you please clarify why including his opinion is not WP:UNDUE or WP:FRINGE based on the following, "In the Satyarth Prakash, first issued in 1875, Dayananda synthesized the views that he had delivered orally in lectures through north India. Sure enough, in this book I found the story that Swamiji had told, though in a very different form. The story appears in chapter 11, "A Refutation and Advocation of Indian Religions," which presents an unabashedly biased history of various sects within Hinduism. There are spirited exposes of the supposed logical absurdity in the mythology surrounding various deities; there are tirades against Gurus and sarcastic descriptions of the average ascetic's conduct. Many parts of the book are in dialogue form. When Swami Dayananda is asked about the Swami Narayan sect, he launches into a description of the founder's wiles." (141)? Thank you Moksha88 (talk) 02:33, 2 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Moksha88: We’re not here to check who bashed someone and who wrote biased history. We’re here to write it down what author or other person said about sect. It’s not our duty to check their bias. I wrote Wikipedia article in disappointing and Neutral tone but I can’t expect authors outside Wikipedia to be Neutral. If they’re then we wouldn’t have opinions at all. — Harshil want to talk? 04:35, 2 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Let me clarify the edits I made yesterday. Looking at page 143, there is no mention of a year of either when he made these statements nor when the Swaminarayan sect was established on this page. The closest thing I can find to the text is this statement, "In his view, it was a historical fact that Sahajananda decked himself out as Narayan to gain disciples," which is what I think you mean to say by including this quote, "It is historical fact that Sahajananda Swami presented himself as God to increase the number of disciples in the sect."
Is this right? If so, by adding words that aren't in the source, it's original research [WP:NOR, specifically WP:STICKTOSOURCE]. Therefore the only thing I could conclude from page 143 is the edit I made yesterday, "Hindu reformer Dayananda Saraswati questioned the acceptance of Sahajanand Swami." We can ask @Gazal world: to verify if you feel I'm incorrect. Otherwise, please cite other pages and/or sources from which you can draw other information if you wish to develop this opinion.
If you can't develop the notability and relevance of his opinion, his opinion is WP:UNDUE or WP:FRINGE and should be removed altogether. Just because a criticism appears in one secondary source doesn't make it notable, especially when it appears his views may have perceived extreme from the quote I initially referenced in this same book. Moksha88 (talk) 02:04, 3 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Moksha88: Wikipedia is for construction, not for destruction. If you have opinion then add it but just don't remove the lines and made it blank. Cooperate and make lines and add content in this article. Also, Sahjananda established sect in 1800 while Dayananda criticised the sect (or cult, in his opinion) in 1860s. Just to add chronological details about both is not WP:OR, this was just to add that Sahajananda was not contemporary but he established sect very much before. I am going to add several lines from Satyarth Prakash too. That disputed line is literally copied from this Gujarati article and have been translated. Now, if you have book and found the actual sentence which is different then we can add it as it is. -- Harshil want to talk? 02:36, 3 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I can see why you might think it's appropriate to include this reference in the English article when it’s in the Gujarati article and why translating the quote from one language to another might not be OR. WP policy is clear here, and when the English source is present, the words you included between the quotes must match the English text. Satyarth Prakash is a primary source, so we can’t use that either. The only quote you could pull from this book is that he didn't accept Swaminarayan as God because he felt he deceived his followers. On page 144, the author quotes Dayananda, "In this same manner, all the opponents of the Vedas are clever in stripping others of their wealth. Such is the imposition of sects. The followers of the Swami Narayan religion illegally make money, practice frauds and tricks." Still, I can’t seem to find other secondary sources to corroborate the notability of this opinion and thus don't think it should be included in this article. I will now seek consensus from others. @Harshil169, Ms Sarah Welch, Nizil Shah, Gazal world, Apollo1203, and Treehugger8891: Moksha88 (talk) 01:26, 4 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I can only request you to look at and read Wikipedia's policies. It never says that you can't add something directly from the book. It just says that diaries, autobiagraphies and such books are primary sources and can't be used for notability. If you still can't believe then read Criticism of Islam. In the article, direct reference is given to the newspaper article for any columnist and according to your understanding, it is original research then it might have been removed or have been tagged. I already suggested two essays to read to differentiate between original research and primary sources. First read, understand and then cite. -- Harshil want to talk? 02:27, 4 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I looked at that page, and there's a tag indicating, "This article needs editing for compliance with Wikipedia's Manual of Style. In particular, it has problems with This article consists primary of lists, quoting persons, who spoke against Islam, without providing further contexts and does not explain that exactly is critisized. Furthermore, many quotes may fail notability," so I'm still not understanding how Dayanand Saraswati's opinion meets notability. I am no longer refuting its inclusion on the basis of OR as translating the quote from Gujarati to English led to its deviance from the original English source. I invite the opinion of others to comment. @Harshil169, Ms Sarah Welch, Nizil Shah, Gazal world, Apollo1203, and Treehugger8891: Moksha88 (talk) 05:11, 6 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I think the author of the secondary source cited seems to indicate that Dayanand Saraswati's views were fringe views, thus I would agree with Moksha88 that this point does indeed violate WP:Fringe and should be removed.Sacredsea (talk) 17:48, 6 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I reviewed the quote Moksha88 previously emphasized and I think the author acknowledges the bias of Dayanand Saraswati. Including his opinion in this criticism is WP:UNDUE. I believe it would be best to remove this statement, as recommended by previous users in this section. Apollo1203 (talk) 03:01, 1 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that this is a fringe view and this verbiage doesn't merit inclusion in the article. Appears as though we have consensus on this issue. I am going to remove the discussed content from the article. Actionjackson09 (talk) 15:58, 1 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Sarcastic dig and criticism[edit]

@Harshil169:, how sarcastic dig by Morari Bapu qualify as serious criticism of Swaminarayan sect? Criticism is a scholarly study of a subject. Sarcastic dig is hardly qualify as criticism. -Nizil (talk) 05:34, 2 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Nizil Shah still it was criticism as the central figure of the sect was directly criticised and attacked. Also, in criticism of Islam, there’s mention of such jibes and one sarcastic book namely ‘Rangeela Rasool’.— Harshil want to talk? 05:39, 2 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Also, we should not add Kaajal Oza Vaidya in reference. She is not a scholar, but a popular columnist and novelist. Her works isn't mentioned as 'significant work' in any 'reference works' or in any books of 'history of literature'. --Gazal world (talk) 05:42, 2 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Harshil169:, Attack is not criticism. Did he criticised any particular aspect of sect or philosophy? At most, I can see that he criticised the use of Nilkanth title. Btw I can not find Rangeela Rasool in Islam or Criticism of Islam.-Nizil (talk) 05:46, 2 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Nizil Shah:, ohh I found it here. Now, it’s obvious that criticism of Islam and Muhammad are different and so much in detailed and hence different. Here, I’ve added in this section to avoid making new article on Criticisms of Sahjanand as an individual. Sahjanand is the central figure of Swaminarayan and hence, I’ve added it here. Also, @Gazal world: the page I’ve cited here also has commentaries from journalist Katherine Zoepf and Criticism of Islam also includes criticisms from several columnists and journalists. Kajal Oza Vaidhya showed her opinion and it will be not wrong to include it here if we follow same pattern as Wikipedia articles have for criticism of religion.— Harshil want to talk? 06:23, 2 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, Katherine Zoepf ! Atleast, she is an author of several 'scholarly' or 'historical' works. And Kajal Oza Vaidya ? Hope, you get the point. --Gazal world (talk) 06:31, 2 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Harshil169:, Morari Bapu has not criticised Sahajanand. He took a dig at the use of Nilakanth title. Two are different things. And mocking the use of title is hardly a criticism of the sect.-Nizil (talk) 06:35, 2 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Nizil Shah: In the same way, Dayananda Saraswati had also took a dig at Sahjanand. As he objected Sahjanand as presenting himself as Vishnu. Then whole article becomes reluctant here. — Harshil want to talk? 06:38, 2 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Gazal world: I got your point but still Wikipedia articles have opinions from authors and columnists who didn’t produce any scholary work yet. They are in even articles of criticism of religion. — Harshil want to talk? 06:41, 2 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Harshil169: You missed the point. Dayanand had criticised Sahajanad and Morari Bapu has not criticised Sahajanand. He took a dig at the use of Nilakanth title. Is this any kind of criticism of the sect? [Note: I think you want to say "redundant" in previous comment but instead wrote "reluctant". I get it.] -Nizil (talk) 06:49, 2 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I got your point. But still it’s one type of objection. See the lead section of this article. You’ll find the criticism over use of word Prophet for Muhammad. Firstly, I’ve read all the articles related to criticism of religions and then I had created this one in the lines of it. Morari Bapu objected use of title and he had his own points. Devotees of sect got triggered which created a big controversy in Gujarat. So, in my opinion, this deserves a place. Obviously, I’ll improve it. — Harshil want to talk? 06:57, 2 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Harshil169: Even if Morari Bapu objected use of the title, what was his point? What of his criticism? Dig/mocking is not a serious criticism. The controversy is not important.-Nizil (talk) 07:53, 2 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Nizil Shah, His point was title Nilkanth is for his sect or lord, not for some other sect as they used in 19th century. This is same as Jews criticise the prophecy and use of term prophet for Muhammad whose time was 7th century and they have an old faith. Same for Christianity and their obligation of use of term 'prophet' for Muhammad. That's the reason why it took place. If you think this is inappropriate then you can refer articles of criticism of another religion. And still not convinced then let's seek third opinion of person or removing those lines from paragraph. -- Harshil want to talk? 02:47, 3 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Harshil169: Simply, Morari Bapu's point was about use of term Nilkanth by Swaminarayan sect. In fact, Swaminarayan sect uses term Nilkanth Varni. Bapu just mocked it by telling that the Nilkanth applies to a person who drank poison, not laddu (a sweet). So what was his serious criticism? Did he told not to use Nilkanth? No, he just mocked its use. My point is that there is no real criticism in whole issue. It was : a mocking by a person, the people of sect feel offended, and the person apologised. I believe the whole section is pointless. Pinging Ms Sarah Welch for third opinion.-Nizil (talk) 05:27, 3 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Nizil Shah:, refer to BBC source given in the article. Morari Bapu’s whole statement was “Abhisheka can be done only on Nilkanth, all other Nilkanths are fake. You’ve to drink poison to become Nilkanth but you can’t become Nilkanth by eating laddus.” This was serious comment but in sarcastic way on the central figure of sect. Article of BBC clarifies many doubts on how Morari Bapu attack someone. — Harshil want to talk? 05:33, 3 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
This article is in poor shape. We should avoid OR and not extrapolate criticism (or sarcasm) of an individual or individuals to "criticism of a sect/tradition". Similarly, the criticism of a few sadhus or someone alleged to have committed a crime should not be extrapolated into criticism of the Swaminarayan sect. WP:BLP applies here too. A better article will avoid ad hominems, and focus on the criticism of the ideology, themes, beliefs etc of the sect/tradition/religious group. Even there, we must invest due care in reading multiple sources and confirming whether an allegation or opinion is "notable" (WP:Due) by being in multiple "independent" reliable sources, preferably high-quality sources. All criticism should be carefully attributed to the source, avoid using wikipedia voice or universalizing. Mythology-based sarcastic comments/etc based on an interview is not an appropriate source/content and weakens this article. See WP:WWIN. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 10:43, 3 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

How has he taken a dig? He was stating the truth that Mahadev is Nilkanth? Correct your facts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sciho (talk • contribs) 15:03, 3 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Welcome to wikipedia. Doesn't matter whether it is dig/praise/reality, it is unencyclopedic and not notable. When someone alleges one must "drink poison to become Nilkanth", this is their opinion. It is from mythology, about mythical/symbolic poison (of unknown composition) just like the mythical/symbolic amrit (also of unknown composition). We do not include every opinion voiced in newspaper or other media in wikipedia articles. It must be notable and of encyclopedic value. Please see WP:WWIN and other content guidelines. A summary of scholarly criticism of this sect would be most welcome. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 15:37, 3 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with @Ms Sarah Welch:. Outside of the references he has cited, I cannot find other secondary sources which support the notability of these criticisms. Moksha88 (talk) 01:11, 4 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
But Ms Sarah Welch, here scholary criticism is not even acceptable as you can find in discussions of moksha and apollo. I cannot cite Dayananda's criticism because it's written by him in his work Satyarth Prakash. Also, I can't add criticism of Mahatma Gandhi directly from his own book because website of BAPS cult is saying something other for Mahatma. And his criticism is not even notable. Okay, I'm blanking the page in 2 days and will request deletion. Many people don't want to tolerate criticism of their swami.-- Harshil want to talk? 04:23, 4 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Harshil169: I have only used scholarly references that have been produced by reliable publishing houses; this has been the basis of my edits or corrections to ensure false claims, which are not supported by secondary sources, do not jeopardize the integrity of Wikipedia. My comment here are precisely what Ms Sarah Welch has mentioned. Apollo1203 (talk) 04:37, 4 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I am removing Criticism by Morari Bapu section as per third opinion. Thank you Ms Sarah Welch for your time and comment. [Note: Doesn't matter whether it is dig/praise/reality, it is unencyclopedic and not notable... A summary of scholarly criticism of this sect would be most welcome.] @Harshil169:, hope it clarifies. I believe that the issue regarding Morari Bapu comment is now settled. Other discussion can be carried on. -Nizil (talk) 05:56, 4 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Request Exact Quotes - Gujarati and Hindi[edit]

Harshil169 Please provide the exact quotes and translations used from the 2 Gujarati sources used and 1 Hindi source used on this page. Apollo1203 (talk) 02:52, 3 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Apollo1203 This demand is pathetic. I can't provide translations of three articles on the Wikipedia. Just use Google translate and do so. I didn't use any type of the quote or comment from those articles. Google translation is there, use it. -- Harshil want to talk? 03:50, 3 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Harshil169: Let’s focus on improving the content. We are not as well versed in Gujarati, and I’d trust your translation abilities over a Google algorithm. Can you please provide the relevant quotations from the article with their English translations as per WP:NOENG? Moksha88 (talk) 01:07, 4 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't use any quotation from non-English source. Don't create dispute of each topic by topic after. First resolve one thing. Don't attack from four sides.-- Harshil want to talk? 04:28, 4 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Harshil169: The original source is in Gujarati and/or Hindi, therefore, it was taken from non-English source. It would be helpful to see which quote is the basis of the claim you are making from the articles of another language. Also, there are many pending requests and comments on the page that have still not been addressed. Apollo1203 (talk) 04:34, 4 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Gandhi on Swaminarayan Sampraday[edit]

The section dedicated to Gandhi's criticism of the Swaminarayan sect has been removed for the following reasons:
1. The text is in violation of WP:RPWP:RS, as the text is purely from a primary source. Additionally, it violates WP:NPOV as wording is biased as the source itself seems biased.
2. We can also turn to the Swaminarayan page. Here it clearly states an alternative view of Gandhi's: "the work accomplished by Swaminarayan in Gujarat could not and would never have been achieved by the law.” (https://www.baps.org/About-BAPS/TheFounder%E2%80%93BhagwanSwaminarayan/IntheirEyes%E2%80%A6.aspx). Scholars note close parallels between Gandhi's work and Swaminarayan's work related to non-violence, truth-telling, hygiene, temperance, and the uplift of masses. (Brady Williams, Raymond (2001). An Introduction to Swaminarayan Hinduism. Cambridge University Press. p. 173. ISBN 9780521654227.) Commenting on Gandhi's social work, N.A. Toothi "most of his thought, activities and even methods of most of the institutions which he has been building up and serving, have the flavor of Swaminarayanism, more than that of any other sect of Hindu Dharma." He however did not feel that Swaminarayan's values aligned perfectly with his interpretation of Vaishnavism. (Takashi Shinoda (2002). The other Gujarat. Popular Prakashan. p. 9. ISBN 978-81-7154-874-3. Retrieved 27 June 2009) and (Hardiman, David (1988). "Class Base of Swaminarayan Sect". Economic and Political Weekly. 23 (37): 1907–1912. JSTOR 4379024).
If anyone feels against this, please discuss and we can come to a consensus on the topic.
Apollo1203 (talk) 03:13, 3 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Apollo1203, How pathetic you are talking here? Mahatma Gandhi said this in his book and you are referring to the sources provided by Swaminarayan sect? You can't remove the content whatever you like. This quotation is directly taken from Mahatma Gandhi's work. So, go and verify it rather than depending on some sect's website, otherwise, you'll be blocked for removing content. -- Harshil want to talk? 03:19, 3 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Harshil169 - I have cited Williams, Toothi, Shinoda, and Hardiman regarding Gandhi's views as well. Whom are not part of the sect — Preceding unsigned comment added by Apollo1203 (talk • contribs) 03:25, 3 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Apollo1203, Verify this text in the work of Mahatma Gandhi. If it is wrong then I will remove it. If you will revert one more time then you maybe blocked from Wikipedia for edit war.-- Harshil want to talk? 03:46, 3 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Sure, I can do research into it. Also, I believe it should be a general consensus of what should remain or removed, it is not your page Harshil169 or your ultimate decision of what should remain or not. I would like to invite the others to comment on this topic as well. Apollo1203 (talk) 03:38, 3 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Apollo1203 You can't remove the content without gaining consensus. Here, link to direct primary source is given, don't believe in source provided by some sect. -- Harshil want to talk? 03:49, 3 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It appears quite clear that scholars have also mentioned Gandhi's viewpoint on Swaminarayan. I do not deny that there is mention that Gandhi believed Swaminarayan's values did not align with his interpretation of Vaishnavism. I invite others to also comment and review the work on Gandhi and its notability for this page. Based on group consensus, we can determine if it should be removed or kept. Apollo1203 (talk) 17:19, 3 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Please remove. I have not seen other sources supporting the inclusion of its notability. Moksha88 (talk) 01:06, 4 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
If you have not seen then it doesn't mean that it should not be there on Wikipedia. Person who championed indian freedom struggle is not notable then who is notable? Swami Dayananda Saraswati is not notable. So, I have to blank the page, right? -_ Harshil want to talk? 02:29, 4 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Harshil169: Anything that is encompassed by WP:WWIN, specifically WP:NOTOPINION, WP:NOTSCANDAL, should be removed from this page as outlined above by Ms Sarah Welch. This applies to Dayanand Saraswati, Gandhi, and sexual abuse allegations. Moksha88 (talk) 02:45, 5 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Moksha88: Where did I add my personal comments about Sahjanand? I added comments of Dayananda, Gandhi and both have been mentioned in multiple resources including William’s book. WP:NOTOPINION is not applicable here as none of these are my comments. NotOpinion means I can’t criticise Sahjanand by my own stand. Read Criticism of Islam, Criticism of Christianity, Criticism of Jainism, Criticism of Muhammad and Criticism of Jesus before commenting how criticism of religion should be written. For example, read how they used references of Voltaire directly from his work. Same I did with Dayananda and Gandhi. And as you said, comments of Dayananda, Gandhi and Sadhus should be removed then what should be here? Now, just write what should be here in criticism of Swaminarayan sect? No content? Blanking? I’m stopping discussion here as it’s not violation of any policy to write opinion of others for particular sect. — Harshil want to talk? 03:00, 5 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Harshil169: I think the information you have populated as criticism has been based on sources which do not stand as sufficient material for the criticism. I believe all the users: Moksha88, Treehugger8891, Nizil Shah, Ms Sarah Welch have expressed similar sentiments that the material on this page needs improvement based on sources which are not concrete. It seems as if you are going against the consensus and not allowing those involved in this page to move this page forward. Additionally, you are arguing and criticizing all that are involved in the editing, leading you to initiate a sockpuppet investigation. These actions all seem unwarranted. Apollo1203 (talk) 03:26, 5 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
If someone is trying to reach on consensus then I’m here. I didn’t stop anyone to remove criticism of Morari Bapu as consensus is reached. Also, no experienced editors, including Nizil and Sara, had told that criticism of Gandhi and Dayananda are not reliable. So, don’t bring them in between here. They expressed their opinion for different topic, don’t use their name to make your arguments strong. I’m talking about policies here, stay on point and I opened SPI against only those who are likely to be connected, not against everyone. This is how Sockpuppet works and I opened investigation. If you didn’t have more than one account and not abusive use then you’ve to no worry for it; it’ll be identified. If it’ll be opened then it means admin is also suspected on activity of accounts. — Harshil want to talk? 03:33, 5 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Harshil169: As I stated before, I have not shared my username/IP address/created duplicate account. I am just attempting to ensure the integrity of Wikipedia is upheld.Apollo1203 (talk) 04:23, 5 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Apollo1203: Per WP:PRIMARY, it is okay to quote exact from a primary source (preferably from a published paper version, avoid websites). However, it must not be cherrypicked, be complete, and mention the context/relevant conditions disclosed in the sources. Adding something from Gandhi would, therefore, be okay. Your point and comments from Williams, Toothi, Shinoda, and Hardiman regarding Gandhi's views should also be added, to give a balanced (NPOV) picture. Encyclopedic coverage of criticism does not mean a list of criticism, it also includes disagreements, responses and clarifications about the criticism. Harshil169: please dial down the rhetoric a bit, as calling someone "pathetic" etc is neither kind and respectful nor the best way to collaborate and develop a consensus.
Here is what I would urge you two to consider adding from the Gandhi's comments, along with sources Apollo1023 is suggesting, "In a series of letters to his relative Maganlal Gandhi, he discussed ethics according to Hindu texts and mentions those he believed to be of Swaminaraya.Source pp. 27–35 In a letter in July 1918, Gandhi questioned the interpretations and teachings of love and absolute ahimsa (non-violence) ethics by Swaminarayan and Vallabhacharya. According to Gandhi, it robbed us of our manliless; they made the people incapable of self-defence. [...] Do not mix up the Vaishnava tradition with the teaching of Vallabh and Swaminarayana. Vaishnavism is an age-old truth. I have come to see, what I did not so clearly before, that there is non¬violence in violence. This is the big change which has come about. I had not fully realized the duty of restraining a drunkard from doing evil, of killing a dog in agony or one infected with rabies. In all these instances, violence is in fact non-violence."Source pp. 32–33
There is a bit more you can add from Gandhi source, if you wish. But, be careful and complete per our WP:RS guidelines for primary sources. Summarize in a way that informs, plus does not misinform the reader. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 13:26, 5 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Ms Sarah Welch: Thanks for giving third opinion. Mahatma Gandhi appreciated him in complete different context; not in this one letter. And I didn’t find Mahatma Gandhi’s appraisal in his primary source expect site of BAPS. Also, I’ve read Criticism of religion including Criticism of Islam, Criticism if Christianity and in which no one has added the justification from the side of religion, Islam and Christianity then how it will be fair to add the criticism of the accused in the subpov article of Swaminarayan when things like praise, his good efforts already been included in the article related to him. In addition, WP:Criticism essay also stated that criticism section and/or article is for negative viewpoints about religion. Positive viewpoints are already been given in other articles without any criticism. Will this be fair practice?— Harshil want to talk? 14:49, 5 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
WP:Criticism essay does emphasize, "a fair description of the topic" and "best practice is to incorporate positive and negative material into the same section". This can accomplished in this article by including criticism with context, and any responses / defenses / apologetics / clarifications about that criticism or opposed to that criticism, again with context, all from good quality reliable sources. Opposing criticism and apologetics are not the same thing as praise. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 15:14, 5 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I fully agree with Ms Sarah Welch about the best practice of contextualizing criticism to achieve WP:NPOV. I have used the text that Ms Sarah Welch has suggested and then done some more research to create what I hope is a nuanced and well-researched account of Gandhi’s evolving criticism of the Swaminarayan sect over time. According to WP:BB, I am posting this version, but also noting my absolute openness to revert it back or delete the section altogether if after discussing the pros and cons on the talk page that is the consensus that emerges. I found the talk page contributions very interesting and I commend everyone for doing the hard work it takes to improve this article.Sacredsea (talk) 16:51, 6 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
You cited criticism by Mahatma Gandhi from his work and complemented it with another source. Instead of focusing what Gandhi had said on Sahajananda, you quoted historian's opinion by equating it with Sahajananda's work which has nothing to do with his criticism and apology. First, build consensus and then replace texts. -- Harshil want to talk? 18:08, 6 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The contribution I made on Gandhi's Criticism was reverted by Harshil169 before anyone else could get a chance to comment on it reach consensus. I can understand that Harshil169 seems very passionate about this subject, but that is not an excuse for tendentious editing WP:TE. So I would request Harshil169 to revert his own reversion, allow my good faith edits to go back up at least until others get a chance to look at it and discuss it on the talk page, to see if we can arrive at some consensus on this point. If consensus cannot be reached, then we can go back to the original. Until then, my good faith edits can be seen at in my sandbox - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Sacredsea/sandbox. and I would invite others to discuss. Regarding Harshil169's talk page post here, it is clear that he is ignoring the emerging consensus about wikipedia guidelines on WP:NPOV for criticism pages. The material I have posted on Gandhi examines his criticism, looks at the context of that criticism, and then looks at how that same topic of criticism by Gandhi has changed over time. As Ms Sarah Welch has already explained that is not praise, it is "including criticism with context, and any responses / defenses / apologetics / clarifications about that criticism or opposed to that criticism, again with context, all from good quality reliable sources". Take a look at it again, and I think it would be clear that is exactly what I have done. It gives a balanced and well-support picture of that criticism in line with WP:NPOV.

Also, Harshil169's statement "Instead of focusing what Gandhi had said on Sahajananda, you quoted historian's opinion by equating it with Sahajananda's work which has nothing to do with his criticism and apology." is not clear to me, and I would appreciate it if he could clarify his point in more detail. Sacredsea (talk) 18:22, 6 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Sacredsea Please understand that this dispute is going on for the content which was originally there. We were involved in building consensus and you had removed the content which was existing. Don't do that when content is already in dispute. -- Harshil want to talk? 18:26, 6 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I thought that the consensus was moving towards another approach, which I provided, but we can have everyone look at my sandbox and the current version and share their thoughts. Sacredsea (talk) 18:45, 6 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Sacredsea: your sandbox version with cited sources is constructive and in the right direction. Trim the second last para in particular, don't use words such as "Eminent" (WP:Peacock) as in the last para, remove editorializing, avoid JBE Online books type sources given the publisher's unknown peer-review process, and subtitle that section simply as "Mahatma Gandhi" instead of "Criticism by Mahatma Gandhi". Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 22:19, 6 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I have made the changes that were suggested. I look forward to seeing what everyone thinks - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Sacredsea/sandbox Sacredsea (talk) 00:32, 7 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The edits made by Sacredsea on their sandbox page are comprehensive and are appropriate for this topic. My opinion is that they be used. Tale.Spin (talk) 00:46, 7 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
After reviewing the version in the sandbox, I believe it is a better version for this article. Apollo1203 (talk) 00:49, 7 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I too looked at this version and made two minor edits (italicizing Ashram Bhajanavali as it's a book and making Sociologist lowercase). Otherwise, I agree with the reasoning and feel it reflects the explanation of WP:NPOV outlined by Ms Sarah Welch. Moksha88 (talk) 01:46, 7 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks to everyone for their constructive suggestions. I believe that consensus has been reached, so I will substitute the Mahatma Gandhi section on the current page with the version in my sandbox. I believe this issue has been resolved, and we can focus on other pending aspects for further discussion.Sacredsea (talk) 03:16, 7 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Reference #6 [WP:NPOV][edit]

In verifying this statement, “Swaminarayan was also criticized by his contemporaries because he received large gifts from his followers and dressed and traveled as a Maharaja even though he had taken the vows of renunciation of the world by being a Sannyasi,” I found this statement in Raymond Williams’s An Introduction to Swaminarayan Hinduism, “'Followers believe that he was unaffected by any of these emotions or feelings. Swaminarayan was criticized because he received large gifts from his followers and dressed and traveled as a Maharaja even though he had taken the vows of renunciation of the world” (81). I notice you are now referencing a Gujarati source. Can you please provide us an English translation of the reference and an explanation for why you changed the reference?

Also, this excerpt is taken out of context from William's book [WP:NPOV]. This section is part of a larger discussion of Swaminarayan’s teachings where God assumes a human body and human characteristics to accept the devotion of his followers. This is again addressed in this book, “There are many stories in which he received gifts or ate very fine food, not because he wanted them, but to satisfy the devotional needs of his followers” (19). Moksha88 (talk) 01:38, 4 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Harshil169: I forgot to ping you on this question yesterday. Please respond at your convenience. Thank you. Moksha88 (talk) 02:47, 5 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Harshil169: I now see this statement is attributed to a third reference, Kirin Narayan’s book. As I mentioned before, this quote is taken verbatim from Raymond Williams’s book and doesn’t reflect the actual argument. Can you explain why you cited Kirin Narayan’s text, including the relevant excerpts which corroborate this detail? I have therefore corrected the reference and edited this statement to reflect WP:NPOV and invite @Ms Sarah Welch: to evaluate. Moksha88 (talk) 03:53, 6 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Harshil169: I see you reverted my edits without clarifying why you agreed with using the original reference you cited. What Raymond Williams refers to on page 81 is more fully explained on page 19, so I'm curious to know why you removed the material I had initially incorporated when excluding it certainly constitutes WP:UNDUE and therefore a violation of WP:NPOV. Moksha88 (talk) 05:07, 6 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Moksha88: Refer that statement in good article of Swaminarayan. It can be found here. There's no such need to include the justification from all side. As you can see, there're only 2 lines reagarding this. One is based on criticism and one is on justification. Same I did here. -- Harshil want to talk? 05:12, 6 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Harshil169: Thank you for showing me this example. I think 'claimed' is not a neutral word as per WP:NPOV, "There are no forbidden words or expressions on Wikipedia, but certain expressions should be used with care, because they may introduce bias. For example, the word claim, as in "Jim claimed he paid for the sandwich", could imply a lack of credibility. Using this or other expressions of doubt may make an article appear to promote one position over another. Try to state the facts more simply without using such loaded words; for example, "Jim said that he paid for the sandwich"." I wonder if we can use 'responded' or 'explained' here. Moksha88 (talk) 05:22, 6 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Moksha88: That’s wrong example because it’s more like presenting fact. If Jim had no money and he ate sandwich for free then it should be taken. Now differentiate between two:- “Jim had no money but he ate sandwich and said that it’s his fundamental right.” and “Jim had no money but he ate sandwich but he claimed that it’s his fundamental right.” Now, first sentence represents simple fact while second is neutral as people can agree with it or disagree as per their ideology. That’s how word ‘claimed’ is used here. Sahajananda claimed something which was not acceptable in contemporary society but it can ve acceptable to their followers. Waiting for comments of Ms Sarah Welch for this issue. — Harshil want to talk? 05:58, 6 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree with @Harshil169:’s logic. I agree with Moksha88 and their citation of Wikipedia guidelines regarding and NPOV which they have actually quoted, and thus I feel that the word respond is more neutral in such situations. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sacredsea (talk • contribs) 18:50, 6 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Raymond Williams' book is a reliable source. On page 89, it does state, "Sahajanand was criticized because he received large gifts from his followers and dressed and traveled as a Maharaja even though he had taken the vows of renunciation of the world". Either this exact quote with in-text attribution (see WP:Plag on how to do this), or a reworded version is relevant and most welcome in the article. His response, and why he believed it was good, that follows in the Williams source must also be briefly summarized in this article, for NPOV. Please keep the focus on the Swaminarayan sect, rather than one individual. On large gifts, see pages 58-59, 110-111, 142-144, etc in the Williams source. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 22:46, 6 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Ms Sarah Welch: Thank you for the comments. I will review the pages you suggested and draft a response in my sandbox, like Sacredsea, so others may review. Moksha88 (talk) 02:58, 7 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Here's my sandbox version: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Moksha88/sandbox. I didn't get a chance to review the pages suggested by Ms Sarah Welch above so this draft is still preliminary. Moksha88 (talk) 15:13, 8 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Sacredsea and Harshil169: please read Moksha88's draft and the sources cited, then add/revise/improve it. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 17:03, 8 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I have read Williams’ chapter on this point, and the point about criticism of accepting gifts seems like a minor point, since he hasn’t made it explicit who is criticizing him, how wide-spread the criticism was, or anything of the sort. It is almost like an aside. Moreover, Williams’ explanation of Swaminarayan’s “response” to this criticism cites a paragraph in the Vachanamrut, which I also read. But it is clear that Williams has taken this paragraph completely out of context – the quote he cites is not a response to any criticism. So, my sense is that although Williams is a reliable source, including this point in the article may be giving it undue weight, as I could not find this criticism in other scholarly sources. But, still, if all the editors feel it should be included, I edited the sandbox text to provide the reader with more context using what Williams explains in his book immediately prior to the mention of criticism. That is, one has to explain why Swaminarayan is getting gifts to understand what the criticism actually is, otherwise the reader is left to make their own (likely erroneous) assumptions.Sacredsea (talk) 20:16, 11 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Swaminarayan's Views on the Caste System[edit]

In referencing Swaminarayan’s view of the caste system from the book Swaminarayan Hinduism: Tradition, Adaptation, Identity (Williams, Trivedi), it doesn’t adhere to WP:NPOV. The sentence cited in this article is part of a broader discussion (which is disregarded) on how Swaminarayan opposed the caste system and this claim can be considered cherrypicked. See below for excerpts from the same book (Swaminarayan Hinduism: Tradition, Adaptation, Identity); if the group agrees, can it please be removed?

  • Swaminarayan is credited for advocating purity of conduct and high standards of morality during an era of moral degradation and irregularities in practice of faith (page 96-97). It was because of Swaminarayan’s teachings that ‘many lower strata components embraced the Swaminarayan sect.’ The lower strata were drawn to the Swaminarayan sect because Swaminarayan, himself, ignored the differences in caste (pg 105).
  • The claim “Swaminarayan is also being criticised for being supportive of the caste system" can be supported by directly quoting a verse from the Shikshapatri, however, scholars argue this was a method of Swaminarayan’s reform efforts. By not completely negating the ‘norms’ of the era, Swaminarayan was attempting to subtly subvert. It is because of Swaminarayan’s incremental and subtle approach that the sect survived and transformed into a national form focused on inclusiveness (page 107).
  • If one analyzes the crux of Swaminarayan’s teachings, it is clear that caste plays no role in the doctrine. He taught that the true self is the atma, the soul, which is distinct from the physical body, and thus, castes are false and irrelevant (page 115).
  • During Swaminarayan's era, various religious groups had ‘caste-based memberships’ however, Swaminarayan was known for welcoming people of all castes. In 1823, a British official wrote in the Asiatic Journal their observation of various castes and classes being followers of Swaminarayan (page 117).
  • Additionally, Bishop Heber's colonial informant stateed that Swaminarayan 'destroyed the yoke of caste' (page 119).

The above examples and excerpts clearly show a contradiction to what is written in this article and negates the claim that Swaminarayan supported the caste system. I invite all to review the excerpts posted and we can reach a consensus on improving this article to uphold Wikipedia's core pillars.
Apollo1203 (talk) 03:55, 5 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • Read WP:Criticism and read in table that how criticism of religion is made. It’s created by ‘Criticisms’ not by praise. What you’ve mentioned deserves place in article related to Sahjanand and his spiritual tradition which is primary viewpoint. — Harshil want to talk? 04:27, 5 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The points I have made are not praise but factual evidence from an academic source, the same source that was cherrypicked to make a claim against Swaminarayan as supporting caste. I will let everyone else weigh in on this topic. Apollo1203 (talk) 05:04, 5 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Did you care to read essay which I cited? It’s clearly written that criticism sections are for negative viewpoints. If you want to add this then you can add it in articles related to Sahajananda and his sect, not in criticism of his sect. — Harshil want to talk? 05:11, 5 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Harshil169: Yes, I did review the essay, thank you for sharing it with me. Based on my review of the essay I have a few observations for the group to consider. Please reference the WP:Criticism essay in parallel with the points below:
  • As you are the original creator of this article, it is apparent you took the approach of ‘Criticism of…’ when creating this article. The description for this type of page begins with ‘This approach is generally discouraged…” Knowing this, it seemed like you concluded this was the best approach to create this article despite it not being the ‘best’ choice.
  • Next, the criticism essay begins by saying that articles should contain positive and negative viewpoints from reliable sources and that positive and negative should be presented to give balance. When we analyze this particular article against this statement, this article has been ‘censored’ in an attempt to exclude positive viewpoints. Regarding the sources, we have had numerous discussions on the talk page disputing the validity of some of the sources being used.
  • Furthermore, the criticism essay mentions that the policy WP:BALASPS states that criticism of a subject should be proportionate to the overall weight of criticism in a reliable sources on the subject. If we use the caste example, the source that is being used (Williams and Trivedi) is not about Swaminarayan’s support of the caste system, in fact, it is the complete opposite. For a deeper understanding of this, please read chapter 5 and 6 from Williams and Trivedi book. Therefore, it is safe to say this article is also in violation of WP:BALASPS
  • Finally, the essay you shared states that an article dedicated to negative criticism is usually discouraged due to violation of NPOV.
After reviewing the various points, it appears that this article does not meet many standards or guidelines that have been described in the essay you shared with me. I suggest reviewing the criticism essay you have shared as it will provide you with guiding principles on creating a criticism article/section in the future.Apollo1203 (talk) 05:49, 5 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Few points you’ve missed: Criticism section is for philosophy and religion.
  • The inclusivity of all things were necessary for articles of BLP, not for religion.
  • It’s not written that criticism article (don’t focus on everything, focus on article and section) should include all aspects including justification.
  • Positive things are for Swaminarayan (spiritual tradition). You can add there; it deserves place there and it’s not prohibitive by policy.
  • You’re new to Wikipedia, take some time to make yourself familiar about policy regarding how articles are created. Let’s wait what others say about this but this is not for articles of criticism, that’s sure. — Harshil want to talk? 05:57, 5 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Harshil169: You have noted a few bullet points that contradict what @Ms Sarah Welch: has stated in the Gandhi section of the talk page. Her points align with what I was mentioning above that this section/claim is bias towards the negative and not inclusive of all material. As stated by Ms Sarah Welch: “[Fair description] can [be] accomplished in this article by including criticism with context, and any responses / defenses / apologetics / clarifications about that criticism or opposed to that criticism, again with context, all from good quality reliable sources. Opposing criticism and apologetics are not the same thing as praise” Based on her comments, I have added to the caste criticism to show all sides of this claim and not just the cherrypicked quote which was used earlier. Others who may have an opinion on this matter can also weigh-in.Apollo1203 (talk) 06:59, 6 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Apollo1203: That's for what consensus and third opinion is. Also, don't change context of the criticism. Page number 106 is for another matter and page number 117 is for different matter and why did you remove the quote stated by Sahajananda as reference without gaining consensus and seeking third opinion? It was stated by him and it was criticised. Read WP:NOTOR before telling simple addition as original research.-- Harshil want to talk? 07:34, 6 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Harshil169: If you thoroughly look through chapter 5 and 6 from Swaminarayan Hinduism book (Williams, Trivedi), you will see that both chapters are dedicated to Swaminarayan’s ideology and stance on caste. You are saying don’t cite page 106, but the exact quote on page 106 is, “In the context of criticism is the view that Swaminarayan was supportive of the varna and caste identity…” (which you have also used in your original writing). Please explain how page 106 is not relevant? Furthermore, page 117 states exactly what is the opposite of what is stated on page 106, which provides NPOV. Page 117 states that British officials noted that Swaminarayan was not supportive of the caste system. In my edits, the direct quote from Swaminarayan, which is taken from the Shikshapatri, was not removed but simply summarized in the sentence for better readability. I suggest thoroughly reading chapters 5 and 6 prior to writing or picking statements from them to further an argument as that is not best practice. I will wait for others to chime in and support my edit before reverting. I believe my edit displayed the negative and positive which follows Wikipedia policy of writing a criticism page. Apollo1203 (talk) 18:11, 6 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Apollo1203’s explanations about the best practices regarding criticism page which have been corroborated by Ms Sarah Welch. Moreover, it is clear to me that@Harshil169 is absolutely wrong in the points that he makes about criticism sections not having to abide by WP:NPOV. If further guidance is required, please see also WP: POVFORK, which again clearly states that any criticism pages must consider both merits and faults and cannot be entirely negative. I would like to examine Apollo 1203’s edits to provide some feedback, however they have been reverted by @Harshil169. He has reverted my good-faith edits, and it seems he is reverted Apollo1203’s as well. I would suggest to Apollo1203 to post their version onto their sandbox and put a link on the talk page so we can develop some consensus and move forward.Sacredsea (talk) 19:11, 6 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The points made by @Apollo1203: seem to be sensible. I don't see how @Harshil169:'s references to Wikipedia policy on are applicable to this case. So this criticism should be removed. Tale.Spin (talk) 23:23, 6 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Harshil169: you reverted Apollo1203's edits, but if you look at the book, the chapter is written by Vibhuti Parikh, not Raymond Williams. Should we replace Williams with Parikh? Please be more careful with reverting others' good faith edits [WP:NOR]. It appears you disagree with all of us about how NPOV should appear in a criticism article such as this one, which is what consensus is for, but it's even more difficult when you are not looking at these secondary sources closely. I think a sandbox version would be helpful for us all to review and comment @Apollo1203:. Moksha88 (talk) 02:05, 7 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Moksha88: I have placed my edits regarding Swaminarayan and the caste system in my sandbox here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Apollo1203/sandbox?section=1. I hope everyone has a chance to review and provide feedback. Apollo1203 (talk) 04:45, 7 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
One of the early criticisms of the Swaminarayan community was based on the issue of caste practices. Apollo1203 has proposed some text in his sandbox which starts off saying “Swaminarayan has been criticized for being supportive of the caste system”.

However, after reading chapters 5 and 6 of the Swaminarayan Hinduism book from Oxford University Press, it is clear that the early criticism against the Swaminarayan community was not because Swaminarayan was supportive of the caste system, but because Swaminarayan opposed it. The scholars who have written Ch.5 and Ch.6 have convincingly argued this with multiple references from multiple angles. In fact, they argue that some of the accommodations that Swaminarayan appears to make with regard to caste practices are to forestall the violent criticism that he faced due to his opposition to caste discrimination. I think this important aspect of early criticism of the Swaminarayan community may have been misunderstood in this article, and I have added a revised text in Apollo1203’s sandbox correcting that. The point about Swaminarayan being supportive of the caste system is a modern criticism coming from a modern scholar whose perspective is opposed by other modern scholars. I have also tried to incorporate this in my revised text. I have also tried to incorporate some of Apollo1203’s text into the revised text I have proposed. After reading Ch5 and Ch6, I have also included some of the context they have provided on Swaminarayan’s approach to caste in order to make this section balanced. It would be great if others can take a look and share their thoughts. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Apollo1203/sandbox?section=1Sacredsea (talk) 18:10, 8 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

After reviewing Sacredsea's analysis and writing, I believe the edited version is best fit for the page. The correct perspective from the Chapter 5 and 6 have been brought out through the edited version. Apollo1203 (talk) 01:42, 9 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Sacredsea's revision is much more aligned with NPOV, and I will cross reference with Raymond Williams's earlier book tomorrow to see if there is any criticism present in this book. Moksha88 (talk) 04:43, 9 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for the edits and review Sacredsea and Moksha88. I've edited the article to reflect the new version and added a subsectionApollo1203 (talk) 10:53, 10 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I revised the segment on Swaminarayan and caste within the early criticism section according to the suggestions of Ms Sarah Welch, particularly 1)starting the section with the relevant criticism and 2)giving an expanded version of the criticism with more details. Ms Sarah Welch states that the apologetics and explanations should come after this. It makes sense that the page, being about criticism, should have stated criticism come first and any explanations or contexts required to understand the criticism should come after that. However, according to Wikipedia’s definition of apologetics, I don’t see any apologetics in my writeup of the caste section or the Gandhi section. There is disagreement amongst scholars writing in peer-reviewed sources, which I have clearly stated. Moreover, various scholars have provided context of criticisms based on historical analysis, which I think is different from apologetics - (the religious discipline of defending religious doctrines). Not that I have anything against apologetics, but I just wanted to note that the term may not apply here.As I have mentioned in my earlier post, with regard to caste, there are widely prevalent criticisms in the early years against Swaminarayan’s rejection of caste discrimination. In modern times, Haridman seems to criticize Swaminarayan as supportive of caste discrimination based on some public writings of his, but the bulk of scholarly sources appears to reject Hardiman’s view as superficial. So, while it seems to me Hardiman’s may be a fringe view, at least in the current writeup, I have noted Hardiman’s view along with ample scholarly opposition to his view.Finally, I have added my revised text 2 in Apollo1203’s sandbox, but since the earlier revised text has been incorporated into the article, I’m going to WP:BB and change the article with this revised text 2 and await editors’ comments. However, if anyone objects, and wants to revert the text and comment on the revised text 2 from the sandbox, I’m fine with that as well.Sacredsea (talk) 16:52, 11 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Can anyone access the research paper described over this piece.

Also see Hardiman, David (1988). "Class Base of Swaminarayan Sect". Economic and Political Weekly. 23 (37): 1907–1912. ISSN 0012-9976.

There's a hell lot of criticism, per my initial crawls of relevant journals and all that. ∯WBGconverse 06:39, 9 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I took a quick look. I can likely get it by asking my librarian, but then Mehta's Arthat article is barely cited (Hardiman does, on Google scholar). Unlikely to be mainstream scholarship. More criticism from sources such as Hardiman should be stated upfront in each section, and any apologetics thereafter should be summarized. Instead of a few words or a short clip of criticism, the "criticism" should be expanded, better explained with more details, if and where available in peer-reviewed sources. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 12:10, 9 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Winged Blades of Godric: The criticism summary in the recently revised caste-related section neither properly reflects Williams/Hardiman/etc, nor does it fairly attribute the summarized views to the authors. I will bandage it by this weekend, or sooner. If you have time, please check and revise further. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 13:37, 17 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Ms Sarah Welch and Winged Blades of Godric: Makarand Mehta is well respected historian of Gujarat and is mainstream scholar IMO. See Arhat article must be important even if not cited much. I have used his works in citations and they were of good quality.-Nizil (talk) 14:03, 18 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Nizil: Mehta is cited by Hardiman, and that seconds what you are saying. The critical views in the Hardiman source mentioned by WBG above and one we have cited, reflect Mehta. I have no objections to Mehta (or anyone else) but would prefer a secondary source over a primary source, and something from a peer-reviewed publication. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 14:21, 18 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The Dalit Temple Entry Movements in Maharashtra and Gujarat 1930-48 by Mehta (p.9, p.12 onwards) has information on Dalit Temple Entry issue. It may be relevant in Caste section. -Nizil (talk) 14:53, 18 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed. Perhaps Sacredsea, you or someone can summarize/cite p.9 onwards. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 14:40, 19 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Ms Sarah Welch, Winged Blades of Godric, Nizil Shah, Sacredsea, and Apollo1203: On 10/18, Ms Sarah Welch outlined, "Try to draft an NPOV summary that covers that criticism from all sides. The draft can be on this talk page or your sandbox." We ought to make these suggestions in a draft form before making edits on the page to avoid misunderstanding and miscommunication. As such, I have reverted all good faith edits back to the 10/17 version. Below are the sandboxes in which we can make these suggestions.
Criticism on gifts: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Moksha88/sandbox
Criticism on caste system: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Apollo1203/sandbox
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Moksha88 (talk • contribs)
Moksha88: please sign your comments. Yes, I would have preferred the sandbox approach, but much editorial water has flowed over that sandbox. What we have now reflects a collaborative improvement of some sections. No need for the deep revert. Let us use the current version, in this article or sandbox, then move this forward. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 19:56, 19 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I've moved the discussion from the 'Can anyone' sub-heading to this section as the discussion is related to caste. As previously done, by the suggestion of Ms Sarah Welch, we should edit this section in the sandbox till a consensus is reach. There are still open discussion items that have not been resolved. I've copied the current version in my sandbox and I believe we should all direct ourselves there to make edits. The original version that I had written, as well as the two iterations by Sacredsea are also present there. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Apollo1203/sandbox#Early_Criticism_-_Swaminarayan_and_CasteApollo1203 (talk) 02:28, 21 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Sexual abuse allegations[edit]

@Harshil169:In reviewing Pramukh Swami Maharaj’s article history, these allegations were posted and subsequently removed in October 2014 on the basis of WP:NOTGOSSIP. I therefore think these allegations should be excluded based on WP:NOTSCANDAL which @Ms Sarah Welch: referenced above in clarifying the exclusion of the Morari Bapu claims. Moksha88 (talk) 05:03, 6 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Moksha88: Can you focus on one issue at one moment? It's difficult for any person to address four issues at same time. -- Harshil want to talk? 05:05, 6 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Moksha88: I agree. I can't see how these allegations meet the four criteria of notability stated in WP:EVENTCRITERIA, especially since it looks like the only articles referenced are from 2013 when these allegations arose. I vote to remove.Apollo1203 (talk) 05:57, 6 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@ThaNDNman224 please don't make changes without first reaching consensus. Moksha88 (talk) 17:53, 6 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Harshil169 please stop reverting edits that are being made in good faith in maintaining NPOV for a criticism article. As you said, let's try to reach consensus. There is no reason for edit warring. Moksha88 (talk) 18:03, 6 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

:@Harshil169 please stop reverting edits that are being made in good faith in maintaining NPOV for a criticism article. As you said, let's try to reach consensus. There is no reason for edit warring. Moksha88 (talk) 18:03, 6 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

My apologies @Moksha88:, reading the prior history here as well as the reasons for removal I believe it's fully in line with the policies, specifically WP:BLP. Please go see the talk page on the Pramukh Swami Maharaj wiki page where this was previously discussed and removed. ThaNDNman224 (talk) 18:07, 6 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that on the basis of WP:NOTGOSSIP and WP:EVENTCRITERIA, this should be removed.Sacredsea (talk) 19:13, 6 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@ThaNDNman224 no worries. I just don't want this editing process to become uncivil. @Harshil169: is making a lot of reverts, and I don't want him to feel frustrated. Moksha88 (talk) 02:10, 7 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
To that effect, consensus has been reached. I will remove the final reference to these allegations. Thank you all for commenting. Moksha88 (talk) 04:26, 7 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Adding my two cents - I agree that the verbiage related to the allegations should be removed on the basis of WP:NOTGOSSIP and WP:EVENTCRITERIA. Actionjackson09 (talk) 14:05, 7 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The way[edit]

you folks are moving about; the page will either get sysop-protected or you two, blocked for slow-edit-warring. Please follow dispute resolution ladder. I will be taking a detailed look, soon enough .... ∯WBGconverse 09:03, 7 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Winged Blades of Godric: thank you for your guidance. Do you prefer we wait for your review of the situation or proceed to a noticeboard? Moksha88 (talk) 21:14, 7 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I concur with WBG. You all, including Harshil169, are making a few good points but a lot of claims/accusations/posturing. Please welcome the good points on relevant criticism, read the peer-reviewed sources and then try to draft an NPOV summary that covers that criticism from all sides. The draft can be on this talk page or your sandbox. For example, the allegations and criticism about caste discrimination and related practices within the Swaminarayan sect are relevant and supported in RS such as Williams. It should be included in this article. Williams includes the scholarly response in the pages right after the criticism, and a more comprehensive discussion in chapter 6 on this topic (see). Once you have posted a carefully drafted short summary section based on these relevant sections in the peer-reviewed sources, discuss that summary on this talk page. Hopefully, you will reach a consensus. If not, after a reasonable effort, then you can proceed to WP:DR as WBG suggests. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 10:40, 8 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I have been attempting the approach suggested by Ms Sarah Welch (see the Gandhi section). If what I have written has come across as accusations or posturing, I am sorry, that was not my intent. As for the suggestion to similarly improve the caste discrimination criticism, I have added some revised text to Apollo1203’s sandbox for everyone’s comments and a section on the talk page above explaining it. Sacredsea (talk) 18:06, 8 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
That section should start with the criticism, similar in style to the older versions of this article:
The Swaminarayan sect and Sahajanand have been criticized for being supportive of the caste system, states Williams.[5]:106 This criticism is based on the following statement attributed to Sahajanand, "None shall receive food and water, which are unacceptable at the hands of some people under scruples of caste system, may the same happen to the sanctified portions of the Shri Krishna, except at Jagannath Puri."[6][7]
The explanations and apologetics in your draft should come after this. Please consider re-arranging. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 20:57, 8 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
My response is above https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Criticism_of_Swaminarayan_sect#Swaminarayan's_Views_on_the_Caste_SystemSacredsea (talk) 17:24, 11 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Modern Criticism - Grandiose Temples[edit]

I think the criticism regarding 'grandiose temples' is not notable enough to merit a place in this article. It is not validated as a criticism just because 'some Hindus' hold this belief/opinion (WP:NOTOPINION) as Sarah Welch has pointed out earlier. Apollo1203 (talk) 03:28, 1 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with Apollo here. Doesn't feel like this is a critcisim worth including in the article.Actionjackson09 (talk) 16:00, 1 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
In reviewing the earlier version of this page, it also seemed like this statement was gossip alongside the remarks by Morari Bapu and sexual abuse allegations. I feel there's enough consensus to remove this statement.Moksha88 (talk) 22:07, 1 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Talkpage-merger[edit]

Talk Page has been merged to Swaminarayan Sampraday Apollo1203 (talk) 04:11, 9 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

And restored, to have full access. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 05:17, 25 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Sock-farm[edit]

I've restored the page per Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Moksha88 and Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard#Systematic NPOV review needed in the BAPS topic area. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 05:00, 1 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Joshua Jonathan: I had this page on my watchlist because it went through a really heated conflict back in 2019. I don't agree with the restoration because there are enough problems with having this article as a stand-alone article. If you read the actual merge discussion at Talk:Swaminarayan Sampraday#Proposed_merge_with_Criticism of Swaminarayan sect, you would find that TitoDutta - a respected editor - started the merge discussion, which was supported by other experienced editors in good standing including Nizil Shah, Dharmadakshya. The only person who vehemently opposed the merge was Harshil who has been already indeffed since 2020. I think the merge should be retained. AnM2002 (talk) 04:56, 8 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
You have a point. I'll take a look how much was retained when the two sampraday(a) pages were merged, since the merger was done by one of the members of this group, and see how the info can be merged. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 05:28, 8 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I've copied some info to Swaminarayan Sampradaya, and recreated a redirect. Regards, Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 19:46, 8 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
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