Talk:Cuban sandwich/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Mojo

An authentic Cuban Sandwich should be made with "mojo" not mustard. Mojo is an olive oil and garlic sauce that is made fresh daily. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Redfish62 (talk • contribs) 01:59, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

What evidence do you have to support this? "mojo" is a citrus/garlic marinade that is used on the pork roast that goes into the sandwich. However, yellow mustard is a standard condiment on the sandwich.DCM 16:07, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

rewrite

Hope the extensive cleaning up meets everyone's approval. I left in all the facts that were already in the article, but made it more clear that there are regional differences in what makes a "true" Cuban. Zeng8r 02:23, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

hatchet edits

Some editors are far too quick to eliminate a whole paragraph or section when they don't like the way something is worded. Please rewrite the specific parts you think need fixing so that the surrounding (accurate and cited) information remains in the article. Zeng8r 11:26, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

As a Tampa resident, your edits are noticeably biased and POV. Starting from the top: "traditionally, the pork is marinated in mojo sauce", there are countless Cuban sandwich shops and restaurants that do not use mojo sauce, just because some Tampa sandwich shops do it, doesn't make it "traditional" or even commonplace. Your characterization of a plancha being very similar to a panini grill is completely inaccurate. Both are heated devices used as sandwich presses, but the similarities end there. What makes a plancha or Cuban sandwich press distinct is that its panels are flat, not grooved, panini grills do not effectively and evenly heat a sandwich cubano. "All interested parties agree with the above list of ingredients" that's blatantly POV. "In Miami, your sandwich would be complete" says who? Who are these interested parties? "In other places, however, more items are needed to make the sandwich a "true" Cuban" says who? These are all opinions. "Another variation replaces Cuban bread with panini bread. This is more common in the northern United States" There's nothing to indicate that its commonplace, let alone in the Northern U.S., that use panini bread in place of Cuban bread. You'll never find a source to support this because its not true, and even if a handful of people did it, it wouldn't be notable enough to mention. Just because a handful of people believe that Bud Light tests better with a splash of tabasco sauce and lime juice doesn't mean its worth mentioning on the Bud entry. Being from Tampa doesn't make you an expert by proxy on the Cuban sandwich, back up your additions with real sources and avoid blatantly point of view comments. 65.0.105.181 07:23, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Right now, the only issue is that Zeng8r is not writing in an encyclopedic tone. The content added was alright, just not exactly appropriate for an encyclopedia article on a sandwich. Maybe if this were for a history piece on Ybor City or the sandwich in Tampa, then the tone would be appropriate. I've tried to fix these problems by going back to a prior version, and utilizing the text and references added by Zeng8r.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 07:47, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

A few comments for the unregistered user who likes to use 2nd person pronouns:
1) Without a point of view, one cannot see. It's also impossible to write without one. What you strive for in neutral articles is a balanced POV; these people think this, these others think that. Coincidentally (or not), that's exactly how the article is written.
2)The article is actually well sourced with information about what kind of Cuban sandwiches are made where. Did you click on the references before going off at the keyboard? On a related note, I'm kinda surprised that someone who claims to be from Tampa would add all those "needs citation" markers to very commonly known information in the Cuban bread article. Everyone should have a good grasp of local history, imo.
3)Some of the facts and comments you objected to (such as the whole panini thing) have been part of this article for a long time. Having some respect for the knowledge of fellow wikipedians, I left them in when the article was reorganized. Just because I've never heard of something certainly doesn't mean that it's not true.
4) I can't believe you would become so incensed about an article on a sandwich.
As for the tone, there was absolutely nothing wrong with it, imo, but we can agree to disagree. I can't agree, however, on the gutting of the history section. There's a very interesting back story as to why this simple food has 2 (or three) claims to ownership, and to why it is so common in a few places but hard to find anywhere else. Without the history, the article is just a recipe, and much useful information is lost.
So, taking into account all the comments made by everyone, I'll spend a few minutes restoring and adjusting. And, in honor of this conversation, I'll get myself a (Tampa-style) Cuban for lunch. Zeng8r 11:55, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Some statements in this article contradict the references. They tell of the Tampa/Ybor City origin of this dish which is not mentioned in the article at all. 71.101.18.250 00:59, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

all together now: It didn't come from Miami...

Anonymous person: While the reference you added mentions that the Cuban sandwich is popular in Miami (which no one disputes), it directly contradicts your repeated insertion of Miami as a possible point of origin. In fact, while I removed your edited text (again), I left the reference right where you put it. Here's a quote from the How did the Cuban Sandwich make its way to Florida? section:

From the opening of the first cigar factory in 1886 until the 1930's, Ybor City was a flourishing Latin community and was the "Cigar Capital of the World." As a result of severe depressions in Cuba, thousands of Cuban immigrants, both black and white, came to the Tampa, Florida area. In fact, Ybor City would later be called the "Havana" of America by the Florida Branch of the Federal Writers Project Archives in 1941.

The sandwiches were popular with the Cuban immigrants who worked in cigar factories, selling for 15 cents each. Somewhere in time, Italian Genoa salami was added to the Cuban sandwiches of the Tampa area. In the late 1800s, the major ethnic groups of Ybor City were Cubans and Italians.

All the other references tell the same story, such as this one from the Miami Herald:

Sometimes what you need is a hot Cuban.

Un sandwiche cubano.

A Miami staple.

Or is it?

The Cuban sandwich is not, in fact, a Cuban Miami invention. It hails from Tampa -- specifically Ybor City, the old cigar-factory town within Tampa.

And this one from the Tampa Tribune:

OK, for a quick history lesson, it was back at the beginning of the 20th century that cigar workers in Ybor and West Tampa would bring in mixto sandwiches, like the ones they had had back in their native Cuba.

These simple sandwiches would undergo changes as immigrants from different countries came to Ybor. That's the harmonic convergence part. It took all of those cultures to refine the sandwich to the perfect Cuban.

The Spanish put in the fine ham; the Sicilians added the pungent salami. From Cuba came the pork marinated in that rich sour-orange mojo. Layer that with Swiss cheese, pickles and mustard and put it all between slices of freshly baked Cuban bread and life is good again. ...

Just don't believe everything you see on the Internet, and, by all means, do not let anyone tell you the Cuban came from Miami. It is ours.

And the line in the Cuban sandwich article which you insist on repeatedly changing:

As with Cuban bread, the origin of the Cuban sandwich (sometimes called a "mixto sandwich", or "Cuban Pressed Sandwich") is somewhat murky. The sandwich became a common lunch food for workers in both the cigar factories and sugar mills of Cuba and the cigar factories of Ybor City by around 1900.

All are in agreement, none mention a Miami origin. How could they? Cuban sandwiches were already being munched in Cuba and in Tampa when Miami was still only an orange grove, if that.

Now will you please stop this foolishness?... Zeng8r 22:15, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

+Guess not. Reverting to an incorrect version (again) without discussing the indisputable evidence above is not good faith editing, imo. Zeng8r 01:12, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Hi! I see there was a request for a third opinion, but I only see statements from one side on this. From a brief reading of the linked sources, as far as I can tell Zeng8r is correct in his view that no reliable sources have been provided for the claim that the sandwich originates in Miami. Could the proponent or proponents of the other view please make a case and request a third opinion again? Thanks William Pietri 03:47, 4 November 2007 (UTC)


My anonymous friend who refuses to use this talk page:
Here's a quote from the source you added (and I left in the article, btw):

No one is certain exactly where and when the Cuban sandwich was invented. We do know that Cuban sandwiches (called "a sandwich mixto") were common on cafeteria and restaurant menus in Cuba by the 1930s, and there is some evidence of them as early as the turn of the century.

It doesn't "dispute" anything; it simply says that the exact location is uncertain... which is exactly what the quote from the main article already cut and pasted above already says.

Your new source also says that there is evidence of a turn-of-the-century origin. The other sources already cited provide that evidence, once again showing that the sandwich was invented while Miami was still a tiny village with no discernable Cuban population. (Have you read the History of Miami, Florida article? Maybe you should; it's won an award...) Zeng8r 02:11, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

putting it in the proper category

I've noticed that a few editors have been reverting this article's categories, going back and forth between "History of Tampa" and the parent "Tampa, Florida" category. It's also been going on in the closely-related Cuban bread entry.

Personally, I think the parent category works best since both items are not just part of the past; they're still very common food staples in Tampa. (Coincidentally, I'm finishing my breakfast of toasted Cuban bread as I type this!)

Maybe there's a good wiki-reason to put this in the "history of" category - whatever, I don't think it's a big deal either way. But anyone who's concerned should discuss it here rather than just reverting back and forth. Just my 2 cents... Zeng8r (talk) 13:57, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

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related dishes

A couple of the dishes listed in the related dishes section are related only in that they also have something to do with Cuba. Unless there's an objection, I'm going to move them to the Cuban cuisine article pretty soon. Zeng8r (talk) 12:34, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

recent changes

As was discussed on this talk page looong ago, there is a difference of opinion among the sources as to the original origin of this food: Cuba or Tampa/Ybor City. The consensus was to not arbitrarily state in the article that one or the other locales was the definitive answer but to explain the various possibilities and leave it at that.

However, recent edits have seized upon one source (a food blog) and changed the article to agree with this one source, ignoring and removing other sources which do not agree. This source is not new - it was already cited, and the theory & views expressed therein were already included as a possibility in the previous text.

Since no new source was discovered to justify changing the formerly balanced approach, I have restored the previous "either/or wording". Zeng8r (talk) 04:16, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

  • I noticed that a couple of references suffered from broken links, perhaps causing the confusion. The citations in question have been updated. Zeng8r (talk) 04:45, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
Averette, I just noticed that you'd changed the opening paragraph again. Once again, the references do not agree on the exact origin of this dish and the article as it was (and is again) reflects this uncertainty. You can't just remove info you don't like for whatever reason. As it is, the Key West source comes from a blog while the Ybor/Cuba origin comes from multiple printed sources. If any citation should be removed, it's the one that you've twice promoted to the exclusion of the others. Zeng8r (talk) 05:41, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
I changed it because the source I found stated that the sandwich was in the cigar factories of Key West in the 1870's, 30 years before the turn of the century. Key West is by far older than Ybor City, as Ybor himself built a factory in Key West first, then moved to Tampa and started Ybor City in 1886 after his Key West factory burned down. It hardly makes sense that the Cuban cigar workers in Key West didn't have Cuban sandwiches (which certainly already existed in Cuba), but suddenly started eating them in Ybor City. I will do further research on this using old Key West historical books & documents. In any case, those sources appear to be biased tourism boosters for Ybor City, which is in bad need of tourism now, unlike Key West, which has Disneyworld-like volumes of tourists 365 days of the year, and is in no need to promote questionable fluffed up websites. - Marc Averette (talk) 21:01, 6 September 2009 (UTC)


Sounds like you have an incredibly objective and unbiased attitude about this issue... or not. For the record, some of the sources you poo-poo as Tampa/Ybor boosterism actually come from Miami and other places, so your S. Florida defensiveness doesn't even make sense.

In any case, thanks to whomever stepped in and worked on the wording. I cleaned it up a bit to reduce the redundancy and odd wording that come from heavy editing on a particular section. Zeng8r (talk) 13:19, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Averette, please check the sources before editing.Zeng8r (talk) 15:42, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

I did. Source #9 says nothing about being "frowned on", source #10 says "if you want to put it on afterward, it's OK (not exactly frowning upon) - source #11 is just one person's ignorant BLOG opinion who isn't Cuban & doesn't even live in Florida. You yourself said blogs weren't valid sources. - Marc Averette (talk) 16:23, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

From the Tampa Tribune article (not a blog) which I already linked above comes a quote from the owner of Tampa's own Columbia Restaurant (who of course lives in Florida and, not that it matters, is of Cuban/Spanish descent): "Lettuce and tomato? You can't put it on a Cuban sandwich. All that moisture seeps and it screws up the bread." I was sure that this fact is also mentioned in other sources already cited in the article, and sure enough, the very first citation (from a published magazine) mentions it as well. I'll line up a whole bunch of superscript numbers after the sentence in question if you want to continue to argue over this teeny little detail.

And while we're looking closely at sources, I don't see anything in the link you provided for a Key West origin (#3) which actually says anything about Cuban sandwiches being present in Key West in 1870. It mentions that many Cuban cigar makers came to the city in the 1870s (which is accurate, of course) and there's a picture of a yummy-looking Cuban right next to that paragraph. However, the first mention of the sandwich is a little further along, where two consecutive sentences say that it was being enjoyed by Cuban workers in Key West and Tampa in late 1880s.

Am I missing something? Zeng8r (talk) 19:21, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Untitled

I don't think Cuban sandwiches were in Key West in the 1860s like the article says. The footnotes don't say that, either. -VM Vmanteiga (talk) 21:04, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

Shhh, we're being nice here... Zeng8r (talk) 23:09, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
Accoriding to this, they originated in Cuba
"The History of the Cuban Sandwich. There are so many accounts on the genesis of the sandwich, but there is always only one truth, right! I’ve heard it originated in Tampa. Wrong. Way wrong. Borderline insulting. Sorry Bucks. El Cubano was created in Cuba back in early 1900’s."
[1]


I wouldn't trust a blog that can't even get the ingredients right: "In Tampa, most restaurants use Genoa Salami for the ham portion–a reflection of the Italian influence in Ybor City." Um, wrong. Way wrong. Borderline insulting wrong. Sorry Bucks (sic). The salami is in addition to the other meats; ham is always included as well. That's pretty poor research.

Anyway, as has already been discussed, there is definitely a difference of opinion over this issue due to an unfortunate lack of lunch counter menu documentation from the turn of the last century. The article as written accurately reflects this uncertainty and is fine as currently written, imo. Zeng8r (talk) 23:55, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

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Mysterious origin in Key West

Full disclosure, I am from the Tampa area. Around Tampa we are well aware that the Cuban sandwich is very popular in Miami as well, and that there are those that claim the Cuban was invented there. I have never heard anything involving Cuban sandwiches that even mentioned Key West. I looked through the article history and saw that the article reflected the common story (Ybor origin, Miami slightly later) until one dubious article heavily influenced the tone of the intro paragraph, insisting on an origin in Key West. I have little experience editing Wikipedia, so I’d let those with more interest than me decide the “truth” of the matter, except I can’t access that article so the information appears totally unsubstantiated now. I can’t turn anything up that even mentions Key West.

72.184.20.135 (talk) 16:10, 23 October 2016 (UTC)

An early Key West origin is plausible, given that it was an important cigar manufacturing colony before Tampa, and the quote comes from Glenn Westfall, who is one of the most well respected researchers and authors on the close relationship between Cuba and Florida in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. (Being slightly obsessed with the topic myself, I have actually met the man and own two of his books.) So it's reasonable to give his thoughts on the origin of Cuban sandwiches their proper due.
The problem is that it's pretty much impossible to document when and where some guy at a sandwich shop first layered together the magic ingredients and created a modern Cuban sandwich. It gets even more complicated since native Tampanians (such as myself) insist that a proper Cuban must contain salami. I think that this article as currently constructed does a pretty good job of sifting through the available facts and laying out the possibilities.
On a side note, if you're interested in Tampa history and culture, please consider taking a look at Tampa-related articles and expanding them as you see fit. Don't worry about being new on Wikipedia - everybody starts somewhere, and I can help with tone and citations and such. Zeng8r (talk) 13:50, 3 December 2016 (UTC)
I’m not an expert, so I’m happy to defer to someone with more interest in the subject. In fact, I had glossed over that quote which is apparently some of the substance of the missing article. Interesting stuff. 72.184.20.135 (talk) 03:29, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

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rivalry section

I just realized that while I've mentioned the cultural context of the long-running Cuban sandwich article editing dispute several times on talk pages, the Tampa/Miami Cuban sandwich "war" was not actually explained in the article... until now. I added a section that does just that, making it as neutral as humanly possible and stacking it with lots and lots of citations from a wide variety of sources. A little background is a good thing, imo. Zeng8r (talk) 14:06, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

Content conflict, redux

NOTE This discussion of User:Averette's edits began on his talk page. I copied my part of the discussion here, where it should be. Of course, he and anyone else is more than welcome to join in.

We had this exact same argument 9 1/2 years ago.. at least! (See archives). To repeat, there are sources that say that the Cuban sandwich comes from Key West, and there are sources that say it comes from Tampa. This is why the article mentions both as possibilities, with MANY references.

As for the video, I'm not sure that some random item on Vimeo is particularly reliable, especially since you're apparently arguing that it's SO good that it invalidates all other sources. But if you jump to the 9 minute mark, three people say that the sandwich comes from Tampa. Next time, try WATCHING the sourced video before you revert valid edits! (Link to video here: [2] )

This again proves my point; the beginnings of the sandwich are lost to time, and there is evidence for both a Tampa and S. Florida origin. Like I've repeated for a decade in this case, when sources disagree, that uncertainty should be reflected in the article. (And just so you know, I'm copying my side of this discussion to the Cuban sandwich talk page, where it should be. Not liking your habit of removing warnings and discussions from here.) Zeng8r (talk) 20:34, 9 May 2019 (UTC)

One more thing: There's no need to use a photo featuring a wrapper displaying the name of particular restaurant in the infobox since there are other alternatives that cannot be construed as advertising. --Zeng8r (talk) 20:44, 9 May 2019 (UTC)

Photo changed
Also there are several sources that were added, not just the video
You did not add any other sources that had not already been in the article for a very long time. There is no new information, and no reason to change the either/or origin story as it was.
I know you've only been editing here for over a dozen years, but have you gotten around to checking out the actual editing policies? Or reading the explanation above? Or the other explanations I've patiently written for you over and over many years, as seen in the talk page archive? If reliable sources conflict, all points of view should be mentioned and explained in the article. (This is the relevant policy: Wikipedia:These_are_not_original_research#Conflict_between_sources ) The article text has carefully followed that guideline since after the last time you tried to insert your Key West-centric POV in 2009. Since there is no new information on the subject (and there isn't likely to be), that's the way it shall remain.
You should also take a look at another policy: Wikipedia:Tendentious editing. Your repeated POV-pushing and refusal to engage in reasonable discussion on this subject checks off a bunch of the tendentious descriptors, which is a problem. Zeng8r (talk) 10:45, 10 May 2019 (UTC)

NOTE: Since this discussion is going nowhere, I requested a third party take a look: Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard#Cuban_sandwich --Zeng8r (talk) 11:21, 10 May 2019 (UTC)

NOTE TO THIRD-PARTY OBSERVERS: You might think that it's silly to argue over a lunch food, and in the big scheme of things, you'd be right, of course. But the Cuban sandwich is at the center of a long-running friendly rivalry between Tampa and South Florida, so much so that an earlier content dispute in this very same article was covered in the Tampa Tribune. As with articles on all controversial topics, it's important to keep a balanced, well-sourced approach that includes all sides. That's how the article shaped up back in 2009, and that's what I'm continuing to argue for now. Zeng8r (talk) 13:25, 10 May 2019 (UTC)

Tendentious editing applies to you, who is constantly trying to push your incorrect Tampa POV on the article. News flash: Tampa's cigar industry came from Key West. Key West was a flourishing port city and cigar producer many years before Ybor City was founded. Vince Ybor had his factory in Key West first, along with those Cuban sandwiches that Tampa ignorantly tries to claim originated in Ybor City for tourism purposes. Marc Averette (talk) 11:44, 10 May 2019 (UTC)
Averette, I literally wrote a book on Tampa/Ybor history. Your take on that history is... let's just say "skewed". And who's this "Simon Ybor" you're referring to? Perhaps you mean Vicente Martinez-Ybor, whose life story I've taught to hundreds of students over the years? You keep demonstrating that you know less about this subject than you think you do.
But that's beside the point. As I keep saying, it doesn't matter what you think or I think; it's the sources that matter. You continue to ignore and discount and sometimes remove good sources that don't agree with your predetermined POV, which is the crux of the problem. Zeng8r (talk) 13:25, 10 May 2019 (UTC)
I haven't deleted any sources, I have been doing nothing but adding them for the last few days, unlike you who continuously revert my valid sourced edits. Marc Averette (talk) 14:42, 10 May 2019 (UTC)
You are again avoiding the central issue - the sources disagree, so all points of view should be included. For every citation that claims a Key West origin, I can find one that points to Tampa. See here and here and here, all of which I found in about two minutes of research. And those are in addition to the wide variety of published sources (books and journals) and newspaper articles quoting experts that are already cited.
For the 17,000th time - historians disagree on this issue. And when the sources disagree, that disagreement / uncertainty should be fairly reflected in the article per clear and unambiguous Wikipolicy. Zeng8r (talk) 16:31, 10 May 2019 (UTC)
You obviously can't read. The 1st link is 404 error. the 2nd is coverage of an argument between two people on a radio show, not a valid source. The 3rd states this: "In the mid-1800s, the Cuban tobacco industry emerged in Florida, where it first emerged in KEY WEST. Later, tobacco moved north to Tampa,... this marked the RISE of the Cuban sandwich. Rise does not mean it was created there. It means that it started to become popular there. Please learn how to read. Oh, and you might want to read the first comment directly below the article by Carl E. Mott III. He knows what he's talking about, unlike you. Marc Averette (talk) 17:50, 10 May 2019 (UTC)
You remind me of a song lyric - "A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest..." The sources above are two reputable news organizations and a decent website. (I fixed the link). They're all pretty clear in suggesting a Tampa origin. And as I've said over and over, the article already contains literally dozens more good sources that suggest either a Tampa OR a Key West origin OR mention both as possibilities. (Actually, some of the ones you've just added also mention Tampa as the possible origin, yet you inexplicably claim that they prove your predetermined POV.)
This is why the article should take the same balanced approach. Accusing me of POV issues is clear projection on your part. I could be demanding that the article ONLY mention a Tampa/Ybor origin since many sources indicate that my hometown is where the Cuban sandwich was born. But since other sources disagree, the balanced approach is best according to Wikipolicy, and that's how the text should read. I'll just sit back and wait for other editors to take a look and echo my statements.--Zeng8r (talk) 20:19, 10 May 2019 (UTC)
WAIT I just noticed that you went back to your previous comment and changed your reference from "Simon" Ybor to "Vince" Ybor to make it look like you knew what you were talking about. There is no Simon Ybor, and I have never in my life seen anyone refer to Señor Vicente Martinez-Ybor as "Vince". Not even knowing the name of one of the most important people in the deep historical connection between Cuba and Florida really doesn't help your credibility in these matters. Zeng8r (talk) 20:19, 10 May 2019 (UTC)
Keep it in your pants. It was a simple typo. I have no idea why I originally typed Simon. Just shows your pettiness to jump all over something so insignificant.
Your references claiming Ybor City is the home of the Cuban sandwich are meaningless if it can be established that the sandwich already existed in Key West before 1885 (before Ybor City was founded).
Dates trump other people's opinions! https://matadornetwork.com/read/cuban-sandwich-history Marc Averette (talk) 21:11, 10 May 2019 (UTC)

August 2019 repairs / re-explanation

Jeez, I took a long wikibreak and came back to a still-broken article, which I fixed this morning. The citations added to "prove" a Key West origin are either non-reliable sources, speculative, discuss Key West history but don't say anything about the Cuban sandwich appearing there in the 1800s, or say the exact opposite of what Averette claims that they say... or all of the above. And the few good sources are countered by many other good sources claiming a Tampa origin, which is why I keep returned the article to its either-or wording.

The unconstructive / purposely incorrect editing by Averette on this article really has to stop. This citation that he placed after the "1831 in Key West" claim is typical. For one, it's a blog on a food delivery website that seems to use this very Wikipedia article for most of its information, so it's not exactly a reliable source. Putting that aside, the page says says that the cigar industry came to Key West in 1831, which is true. But the very next sentence paraphrases the paragraph that I wrote long ago in the introduction to this article: "...it's impossible to know exactly when the Cuban sandwich made its way to Florida." Even better, the NEXT sentence reads "Legend has it that the Cuban factory workers in Tampa were in need of cheap and quick lunch options, so they started building their tried and true sandwiches," which would clearly support a Tampa origin if it was a reliable source. (It's not, which is why I removed it along with other similar non-RS citations added since June.) The blog post goes on to summarize the Tampa/Miami rivalry but makes no further mention of Key West and NEVER claims that it originated there in 1831 or in any other year. Citing an incorrect fact with a source that says exactly the opposite is not only contrary to Wikipolicy but an insult to my intelligence, as either Averette hoped that nobody would bother to click the link or he never actually read it himself. He's done the same thing MANY times over the years: type his own opinion into the article and tack on a random citation that usually does not back his claims, sometimes comically so.

Every argument I've stated and restated and re-re-re-re-stated over the past decade still stands - there is no hard evidence as to the origin of the Cubano, and reputable historians disagree in reputable sources. Accordingly, the article will reflect that difference of opinion with multiple good citations on each side. My obstinate demand does NOT indicate a lack of compromise; it's a demand TO compromise rather than give in to one person's decade-long quest to push his hometown's point of view over Wikipedia policy and common sense. Zeng8r (talk) 14:27, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

NOTE: For any third party editors/admins who happen upon this talk page, let me point out that, as seen in this talk page archive, the same user has been trying to make the same unsourced changes to this article for at least a decade. (An unregistered IP began making very similar edits in 2008.) He has a long, long history of stubbornly argumentative behavior and a habit of ignoring and removing dispute resolution notices and edit warnings from his talk page (see [3] [4] [5] for just a few recent examples). and was blocked earlier this year for disruptive editing on other articles. When/if he tries to insert the same unsourced bias into this article in the future, I'm going to take this to ANI and ask for a topic ban as suggested here. Ten+ years of the same repetitively unhelpful editing is more than enough, don't you think? Zeng8r (talk) 21:21, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

  • I see that this anonymous IP editor from Miami appeared today to restore Averette's version of the article. Hmmm. Zeng8r (talk) 01:37, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
  • The same IP user did it again today, and also removed the warning that I placed on his talk page... just like Averette always does. Hmmm. Next time, there will be an ANI report filed with along with a checkuser request. You'd think that he'd have more constructive things to do what with a hurricane potentially bearing down on his location. Zeng8r (talk) 00:21, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

November 2020 work

Hey, Zeng8r, I'd like to see if we can get this to GA status. Are you interested in working together? —valereee (talk) 09:12, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

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