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Archive 1Archive 2

DO NOT EDIT OR POST REPLIES TO THIS PAGE. THIS PAGE IS AN ARCHIVE.

This archive page covers approximately the dates between August 2004 and November 2005, basically the material posted before the article Cyberpunk made FA.

Post replies to the main talk page, copying or summarizing the section you are replying to if necessary.

Please add new archivals to Talk:Cyberpunk/Archive02. (See Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page.) Thank you. Anville 14:45, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Strange Days

I´m adding Strange Days to the list of films in the cyberpunk genre. ( That is, of course, unless someone disagrees... )

Also, please, edit my contribution: i hate the way i phrased it and can´t find better ways of saying it ( right now )

Gorsh—Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.232.246.171 (talk) 2006-12-06T22:51:20

Citation needed?

Concerning the sentence below and the one that follows: Is a citation needed? If someone has read both works and the sentence is true no need for validation of a critic.

>Further, while Neuromancer's narrator may have had an unusual "voice" for science fiction, much older examples can be found: Gibson's narrative voice, for example, resembles that of an updated Raymond Chandler, as in his novel The Big Sleep (1939).[citation needed

music?

"With the new millennium came a new movement of industrial bands making "laptop" music. Homeless traveling squatter punks armed themselves with digital equipment and fused technology into their street sounds- El-wire and the Vagabond Choir. The hacker subculture, documented in places like the Jargon File, regards this movement with mixed feelings, since self-proclaimed cyberpunks are often "trendoids" with affection for black leather and chrome who speak enthusiastically about technology instead of learning about it or becoming involved with it. ("Attitude is no substitute for competence," quips the File.) However, these self-proclaimed cyberpunks are at least "excited about the right things" and typically respect the people who actually work with it—those with "the hacker nature"."

This was written horribly, and sounds like the writer actually thinks we live in a cyberpunk world. "Homeless traveling squatter punks"? Please..

Old talk

The page repeats itself about four times...just thought you should know.

STFU OR I'LL PUNK YOU! - --Cyberman 03:49, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

How about adding the TV mini-series Wild Palms to the TV series section?

Can we list some cyberpunk films, like a laundry list, as can be found on the Steampunk page?

Like:

Bladerunnner (1982) The Matrix (1999) Minority Report (2003) ... ... ...?

How does this sound to you guys?

  • Sounds good to me, go for it! PMC 02:54, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Would Tad Williams' Otherland series be considered Cyberpunk?

--Mr Bound 21:27, Oct 27, 2004 (UTC)

Just noticed Serial Experiments Lain has been added to the list of films - is this correct? The main entry doesn't mention a film, and an IMDB search gives this entry - makomk 14:40, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Yeah, that doesn't soung good. Also because it's already listed down as a TV show entry. I'll remove it from the list of films. – Kaonashi 15:50, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)

You people are going to make me see I, Robot, just to decide whether it's truly cyberpunk or not. (I was waiting until it came out on DivX, see.) As far as the book is concerned, though, I could make a serious case that it is classic postcyberpunk: the main characters are not alienated loners or betaphenethylamine addicts, the megacorp is not entirely evil, etc.

Anville 18:37, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I have read Asimov's robot histories, and while they are enjoyable and also defining they are not cyberpunk or even post-cyberpunk. Rather Asimov was an exponent for the grander space operas (ref. Foundation Trilogy), one of the subgenres that the Cyberpunk Movement declared dead in their zine Cheap Truth.

(As a note, I hated I, Robot the movie) It has a vague cyberpunk feel to it, with the machines sort of taking over, but I wouldn't list it here as a true cyberpunk film. There's...well, the whole robots thing. Not many CP books *I've* read have robots all over. As well it has more of a nicer view of everything, more utopian than typical cyberpunk dystopia. PMC 01:52, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Why were the Matrix films removed? Terminator? It does involve a compnay who eneds up taking over the world with it's technology (and then loses control...)Gnrlotto

Matrix should be in there, they're way cyberpunk. Terminator I've never seen, so I won't argue. And as for I, Robot...I dunno, I just didn't get that overt cyberpunk "feel" from it. PMC 00:39, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The discussion about whether a work is "cyberpunk" or not is way too subjective, and therefore it'll be always full of bias. It's a matter of opinion, folks. You can't say what is and what's not. What we can do is to present the reader a selection of works that could be seen as cyberpunk. An attempt. That's as much as anyone can do about that part in the article.

You want my opinion, though? I haven't seen I, Robot, but I think that it should be listed there, along with the Matrix and the Terminator trilogies, which I've seen. Just my opinion. – Kaonashi 01:39, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I edited the article a bit, trying to improve the listings parts. I think it sounds better now. – Kaonashi 02:04, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Members of the original Cyberpunk movement gave various definitions of cyberpunk, two of the more well knmown are "high tech low life" and "bohemia with computers". Under that definition the Matrix could be fitted in. If you widen the scope to what recognised cyberpunk authors have greated you also get the Alien movie that Gibson wrote a script entry for (only very little was in the final movie), The Crow (usually declared a Goth epic with goth author John Shirley as one of the script writers and who is also a cyberpunk author) and Dark City (again with John Shirley writing script and because it was a source of inspiration (even props) for Matrix)

  • Alien, if you're talking about the famed Alien series, I would outright deny that that's cyberpunk. Cyberpunk generally avoids aliens and close encounters of the nth kind. That's more horror sci-fi...I would call it space opera before cyberpunk.
  • The Crow? I've seen it. Not a chance in hell is that cyberpunk. It's goth to the core, and not very *good* goth either. Again, the overt supernatural element and the lack of technology (The Crow: Hacking The Net does not seem like a likely sequel) bar it from cyberpunk.
  • Dark City I have never seen, and so I will leave that one alone.

[[User:Premeditated Chaos|PMC]] 23:51, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

OK, back again, sorry to be so slow in following up our discussion. First off, I do believe Alien is cyberpunk. The operations is under the control of Weyland Yutani, a powerful multinational that deals in high tech weapon system and seem to be above or at least consider themselves above the law. Sure it is horror but why not? The Cyberpunk Movement wanted to change and refresh the genre so there is no need to pideonhole as either horror or cyberpunk. To me it is both. The fact that William Gibson wrote a script to the third movie is an added bonus. As for The Crow I can agree it is not cyberpunk; I offered it as an example where the stance "cyberpunk is what cyberpunk authors create" does not always hold water. Here, it seems, we can agree. Dark City is I believe cyberpunk. rather than starting yet another reedit war I hope to build some consensus in here before adding it to the article itself. Most important of all is that cyberpunk is not formulaic. In fact aliens of sorts is hinted as in Gibson's Hinterlands. John Shirley has a major horror streak. Vernor Vinge has hints of space opera grandeur and scale. Freejack has no network hacking nor cyberspace. Examples and counterexamples are numerous.

  • shrug* This isn't going to get anywhere with just our opinions. Dark City I've never seen, and I won't argue about it. I'll leave that to people who have seen it. Although, having seen it cited multiple times as inspiration for The Matrix, I'd be inclined to include it in the article. The Crow we've agreed against, so that's settled. Now, Alien (and possibly all sequels?)...it seems to be listed on Project Cyberpunk [1]. And [2] declares that it has inklings of cyberpunk. And finally, [3] the Alt.Cyberpunk FAQ itself says that Alien was at least marginally cyberpunk. Right then, I give. But could we include a note with it that says "marginally" or "disputed" or something? [[User:Premeditated Chaos|PMC]] 22:52, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)


What's up with the shrugging? And obviously opinions are not suffficient, were you to look closer you would notice I do make a case for what I believe, relating to stylistic things (Japanese elements/companies), contents (powerful multinational companies above the law) and more. Furthermore I point out the fuzzy areas of cyberpunk. Please read a little closer, I am not just rambling drunkedly along the Wikipedia.

I have followed news:alt.cyberpunk for a couple of years, rescanned articles on the topic of cyberpunk movies and it seems clear that while some movies are agreed to be cyberpunk (like Blade Runner), others are not (including the Matrix trilogy). Nevertheless the lists are long. To keep this article managable in size, not dominated in length by this list item and also potential edit wars, I am proposing to make a new Wikipedia article on cyberpunk media

  • movies, TV series (such as Max Headroom), anime, manga (possibly Lain)
  • sorted by date
  • for each entry argue why it is cyberpunk, determined on at least one of
    • content
    • style

Agreed?

Absolutely. That's a great idea. Cyberpunk in media perhaps, or straight Cyberpunk media. Although I think we should also include arguments against each entry, for balance. Also, when you make the article, I'd consider putting a note on the talk page saying that entries should include a reasonable argument for being cyberpunk or they risk being removed. Just so that we don't have little sci-fi kiddies haphazardly adding anything with a corporation or an anti-hero in it. I definitely think a separate article would be great though. [[User:Premeditated Chaos|PMC]] 04:52, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

John Varley

Maybe the story "Press ENTER" by John Varley should be added.

Book list overhaul

The list of cyberpunk books is going to get long, if all of them are listed. Perhaps it would be better to list cyberpunk authors and specific books by particular authors if the rest of their works don't fit the genre. Another option might include pushing the book (and movie and tv) lists onto a new page(cyberpunk media, or somesuch). Steven.karas 17:38, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Until said cyberpunk media entry gets created, why not start posting the book list here, now? Might as well start providing book names to feed a new entry, if ever one gets created. I must say, however, that having it all in one entry (as it is currently) makes for a richer experience + wealth of knowledge in one place. - Zenorbital 06:52, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)

It should also be mentioned that Total Recall, cyberpunk or not (I don't personally qaulify it as such) was NOT written by Phillip K. Dick in the incarnation which was made into the film. That particular version of the story was written by Piers Anthony as an adaptation of Dick's story "We'll Remember It for You Wholesale." This is my first edit so I apologize beforehand for any syntax errors or the like. -Anonymous. 11:55, 1 Dec 2005

cyberpunk and anime

Cyberpunk took from the ideas of anime? I think it's the other way around. Ninjas, samurais and cyborgs can certainly come from other sources than just anime. While several anime films and TV shows and even manga & comics vividly & greatly illustrate cyberpunk themes and visual styles, I have yet to find an example of it being a source for cyberpunk authors (especially prior to 1984). An example would be greatly appreciated. Otherwise, the 1st and 5th paragraphs of the Style section need to be altered. Comments? - Zenorbital 08:05, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Well, prior to the late 80's, various anime and manga productions were in no doubt influenced by the various cyberpunk literary works and films that existed. After the works of Masamune Shirow and his contemporaries were exported outside of Japan, it became a give and take between the various mediums. However, for material existing before 1990, you are correct. --Paul Soth 16:52, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)
give and take, I like that. Zenorbital 20:57, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Consider that cyborgs and various cyberpunk themes have been appearing in anime since the early 1960s, such as the classic 8-Man, from 1963. 8-Man is one of the original animes, about a human-turned-cyborg after being mortally wounded. In classic cyberpunk style, he takes up an endless fight against the people of the lawless world he lives in. This being about two decades before the term 'cyberpunk' was coined for this sort of thing. Also consider some of the obvious Japanese influence on the works of cyberpunk authors (apart from simply including ninja), such as in Idoru (The Japanese-Engrish of "Idol.") Seems fair to me to say that anime and cyberpunk have both influenced each other pretty heavily, for as long as each have been around.
--Kasha.re 22:45, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for pointing out 8-Man. It's very interesting to find instances of cyborgs from as far back as 1963. The term cyborg was coined in 1960 by 2 Americans, with an eye towards space-travel. But in terms of cyberpunk I must ask: Did this influence the birth of cyberpunk? My original aim with this question was to determine how much of an influence anime had at the start of this cyberpunk period (1984 and before). Idoru came out in 1996, well after the give and take between anime and cyberpunk began in the late-80s, so that part is true. I must note that "an endless fight against the... lawless" is not a cyberpunk theme, it is quite the opposite.
The flow of Japanese pop-culture to the U.S. during the 1960s-70s was a slow drip compared to the fire hose we have now. It is highly doubtful that 8-Man was viewed by any of the handful of writers who started this subgenre. According to interviews of some key players here (notably Gibson and Sterling) they make little or no reference to anime as references. As far as Chiba City goes in Neuromancer, the name was obtained from a calendar that Gibson had. He had no knowledge of Japan proper and never researched it. In fact, it was blind luck that it was a city by the bay as he described it in the book, since he made up that detail as he was writing. Gibson did meet a lot of Japanese students in Vancouver when he was writing, however.
As far as cyborgs go, one could point out The Six Million Dollar Man, or any of a host of comic book characters as more ready influences to the average American growing up in the 1960s-70s. It can be argued that a cyborg and his abilities is nothing more than Iron Man, but with the suit on the inside. We must be very careful not to get too overzealous in associating some art forms we really like to others we love, just to associate the two (even though it's fun). Sure, the bionic man is a cyborg, but we don't classify him as a cyberpunk, do we?
Aside from all that, this brings up a very interesting point. This article lacks any real Themes or Influences sections. There are bits and pieces lying around, but they need to be coalesced. 8-Man, in this sense, might be a "precursor". After a Themes section is in place, maybe another dialogue will start to debate whether a particular book/film/manga/etc is cyberpunk or not. That'll be a long one... Zenorbital 23:13, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
That sounds like a good idea.. and while I realism that "fighting lawlessness" isn't exactly a cyberpunk theme, usually dealing more in fighting large corporations which have become the law instead.. I'd still argue 8-Man to be cyberpunk, because of the gritty, film noir approach. Surely The Six Million dollar man wouldn't count as a cuberpunk, because it didn't have the 'darker', dystopian themes involved. 8-Man does.
--'Kash 23:21, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Reorganization

I have moved the lists of cyberpunk works to a new page, called List of cyberpunk works. (I spent a long time thinking up that name, I'll have you know.) This is on the theory that right now, the main article needs coherent sections on Themes, History and so forth more than it needs a catalog of "all the works various random people think are cyberpunk". I believe that having our definitions set out in a clear and comprehensible way will make the debates over including particular works much easier to resolve.

I have also merged the "Further developments" material into the "History" section, for reasons which should be apparent enough.

It's a long way from FA status, people, but such an achievement is not impossible.

Anville 18:05, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Beware increasingly broad scope

Recent edit included Grand Theft Auto II as a "cyberpunk videogame." Not a chance. This article should really focus on Cyberpunk as a genre instead of trying to include everything with even the slightest bit of Cyberpunk flavor. -Bryant.cutler 15:45, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Amen to that. On a similar note, I just nixed the following paragraph:
The cyberpunk subculture is a group of rebellious and technology loving people who choose to use cyberpunk as a label. They typically are hackers, crackers, and various other geeky sorts of people. Drug use is popular among some cyberpunks (particularly ravers), but not all. The cyberpunk subculture is also known for anarchist leanings.
Why? Several reasons. First, without good source citation, this sort of broad statement is at best echoing stereotypes. It is not a good idea to lump "hackers" and "crackers"—two noticeably distinct groups—into the "geek" box; I know a fair number of hackers who can pass for jocks in a dim light, particularly if you catch them upside an Alaskan glacier. Re-read the Jargon File and Piled Higher and Deeper ([4], [5], [6]). Second, we already have a discussion of cyberpunk "subculture", down where it belongs, after the history of the SF movement. Besides which, we've got a separate article for cyberpunk "fashion".
Anville 18:58, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Band list and Nine Inch Nails

I had removed Nine Inch Nails from the list of cyberpunk bands, and User:Aeonite put it back, citing "numerous cyber elements and imagery in music: The Becoming "I beat my machine, it's inside of me", WISH video's Thunderdome images, etc." OK. Sounds fine to me. However, this makes me think that the band list should live at List of cyberpunk works, for the same reason that the books and movies are now listed there instead of in the main article.

How about a paragraph detailing the cyberpunk elements of NiN? That would certainly be more meaningful than a bullet point, anyway, and it would put the electrofunk discussion in a wider context.

Anville 17:21, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

Replies to hidden queries

William Gibson's prose, too dense for novice or casual readers, was more appealing to academics...

This is a direct paraphrase of the lecture notes cited in the footnote, which the article had previously quoted directly. See the revision as of 10:30, 16 September 2005.

Anville 08:46, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

Quotation style

I'm un-italicizing the quotations, as per the Manual of style. Most of these quotations include emphasized text of their own (book titles, etc.), so even disregarding the Manual's instructions, I think these quotations read more smoothly when they are not fully italicized throughout.

Anville 09:09, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

Results of FAC

Greetings, programs! Well, the article got a few support votes, but it didn't make FA. Nevertheless, the nomination attracted several very insightful comments, so the process was quite worthwhile. For convenience, I've summarized the standing objections, omitting those which have been addressed but weren't struck out of the FAC subpage.

  • No picture in the lead, and none of the images in the article at present seem adequate.
Ah, if only I could invent a rationale for using "Sony Center At Night"! Anville 13:04, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
Okay, I caved to my internal pressure. Anville 12:46, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
  • "Chronological soup", in zippedmartin's phrase — the later sections, in particular, are still more like lists than actual discursive prose. The "Games" section needs particular work in this regard. I'm not a game-player by nature — the Atari 400 was about my speed — so I have no real judgment whether or not the games we discuss now are the "right" ones to include.
  • Odd bits of POV or Original Research here and there (probably as much my fault as anybody's). The "Film and TV" section should be edited in this regard. Specifically, who has said that Ghost in the Shell: SAC is postcyberpunk rather than "classic"? (I'd agree with that statement, myself, if we accept the "postcyberpunk" category as a useful thing, but I have other avenues for my personal opinions.)
Results of Googling "'stand alone complex' cyberpunk": [7] plus a few dozen WP mirrors. Anville 12:17, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
And while I'm talking in a vacuum here (wink), check out this real-for-life Comparative Media Studies "digital culture" class which lists this article as a resource. Anville 12:57, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
  • An anonymous user requested elaboration on why "viewers continue to debate the quality" of the Matrix sequels. I think the articles on the movies themselves cover this topic adequately, so this page needs only a brief elaboration on what we've already got.
I found two print articles available through online archives which address this issue pretty well. Yay for more references! Anville 12:17, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Reference numbering — a little fiddling with templates and syntax and stuff should take care of this, but I haven't gotten around to it yet.
All right, the numbering in the references section now follows the order in the article. We cite the Jargon File twice, so I hard-coded the second footnote to point to number 9. Anybody who adds a new footnote before position 9 needs to watch out for this. Anville 11:10, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
  • A thought of my own: have the external links become too bloated? I'm wary of including links to "portals for innovators", various random games, etc., if we don't make any scholarly use of them. A "further reading" list is a decent idea, I think, and it makes a handly place for later editors to mine new information (at which point the "further reading" links move up into "references"). However, is what we've got now just advertising?
I moved our burgeoning link farm to the List of cyberpunk works. Unless a movie, a band or a game is important enough to discuss for several sentences, it doesn't belong in the main article; in turn, if the main article doesn't discuss a topic, it shouldn't have external links about it. Off to the list they go! I believe the works list could also serve as a repository for the borderline Original Research chitchat about particular movies, bands and so forth. This article seems to attract that (like science fiction in general), and I'm no better than anybody else, so it makes sense to have a mechanism for dealing with it. Of course, I'd like to see all OR gone from the main namespace, but the borderline between OR and merely good writing seems so narrow in these "literary studies" that removing OR can be a difficult proposition. (Is a great phrase which sums up the cyberpunk genre "original research" if we're the first people to use it? Certainly, we can say lots of things about cyberpunk which nobody has said before us, or which are buried so deep in lit-crit journals that one could publish a new paper by dredging them out again. Ah, the joys of encyclopedia scholarship.) Anville 16:48, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

If my connection ever gets faster and less lossy, I'll take a crack at these. Many thanks, of course, to the people who have worked on the article so far, and also to those who commented during the FAC process. Anville 11:02, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

I was one of the objectors, and I did try to help out, but I simply got stuck trying to figure out how to amend everything below "Literature". I'm definetly prepared to support the article if the following things are fixed:
  • Expand the literature section. It's teeny-tiny, despite the fact that cyberpunk originated in book form. I think moving stuff from other sections might do the trick. Cut down on film, music, fashion and particularly games. I know we have a lot of contributors that are gaming fans, but this should not effect article focus. I would really prefer that all four sections somehow be merged, but that's pretty much where I got stuck trying last time around.
  • Separate "References and notes" into (that's right) "References" and "Notes". The notes come first, then the references. Avoid using footnotes just to establish the source for longer quotes. Instead write In Blah (magazine/book/periodical) A. Nonymous said: then list the specific issue in the reference section.
  • Be wary of size. I think 30-40 kB would be just right, what with all sub-articles on cyberpunk available to us.
Oh, and I really like the choice for lead pic.
Peter Isotalo 07:44, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for your comments; I can certainly see the justice in them. Personally, I think that right now, the article sits at a local maximum — a big change could still improve it, but little tweaks this way or that won't make it drastically better. I'm a book person, myself, so I'm more likely to stress the written word over computer games (though you might catch me bending over backwards to avoid doing that). I've merged the "History" and "Literature" sections into one big discourse, which is now called "Literature", since it talks more about written stuff than anything else. Also, I've tried to vet the "Games" section, leaving in only what is commercially notable or philosophically significant (e.g., the bit about "GodNet").
It's tricky to organize this kind of stuff. I've opted for a mixed category/chronology system, where each subcategory (live action, anime; video games, RPGs) is discussed in order, and the items within each subcategory are covered chronologically. Makes for nicer reading than a straight-up chronology, in my opinion. I suppose I'm not eager to merge everything after "Literature" because to me, those categories are very distinct: I enjoy Ghost in the Shell and some of the music the article talks about, but I just can't get into the games.
I've kind of run out of oomph on this article, so I won't be doing anything drastic with it. The things I really want to say about SF would be Original Research, anyways, so I'll be finding other outlets for them (meaning my writing cells will likely be occupied elsewhere). Generally speaking, I'm happy with this article in its state today, though I know it can be improved.
Thanks again to everybody. Anville 15:39, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Dates

In preparation for FAC am attempting to fix all the dates in the article to be consistent with the Wikipedia Mannual of Style. This will include de-linking years unless they are part of a date. Johntex\talk 22:47, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Style & Neuromancer

I just noticed this was a FA candidate so I thought I'd add a note here. I made some changes to the 3rd or 4th para under "Style". The analytical notes about Case were factually inaccurate when they stated that he is affected by factors "outside his control." I don't think this is a mere semantic issue. Case is not an epic hero who bravely endures the unexpected; he makes a free decision to engage in criminal activity, then to betray his partners, and is forced to deal with the consequences. This is the essence of the cyberpunk protagonist, and I felt the original statement was misleading. I also added the brief mention of Clint Eastwood, as his Man With No Name character is widely known even by people who aren't big fans of the Western genre, and IMHO provides a reasonable comparison for those who have never heard of cyberpunk. I think Gibson's use of "console cowboy" justifies this comparison. Simishag 20:52, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Images

Just a note from a (somewhat disinterested, but that's unrelated) reader, that the images should really be limited to 1 from each example...we don't need a "Matrix" image of Trinity...then later in the article, of Neo. Sherurcij 09:49, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

You know, I think you're right. The Neo image has been removed. Anville 10:16, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
What? I really think Trinity is a terrible character. I'd reccomend Morpheus, or one of the operators. -Anonymous

Biopunk or Ribofunk?

In two places the term "biopunk" is used especially in reference to Di Flippo's writing. I have seen "ribofunk" much more commonly used - see for example Sterling's recent collection "Visionary in Residence" and his discription of a story ("The Scab's Progress") that is a collaboration between Di Flippo and him. Note: I would have rather seen "ribofunk" exclusively used, but out of respect I left "biopunk" also in place. 24.183.236.246 01:36, 5 June 2006 (UTC) Joseki

Back to the Future II in the list of Dick-based cyberpunk?

In the section on Film and Television, it says:

"Several of Philip K. Dick's works have been adapted to the silver screen, with cyberpunk elements typically becoming dominant; examples include Back To The Future II (1989), Demolition Man (1993), Timecop (1994), Twelve Monkeys (1995), Minority Report (2002), and Paycheck (2003)"

What Dick work is BTTF II based on?--ragesoss 19:54, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Criticism section is a disaster

From section Criticism: Far too vague wording, just who are these persons? Cite? References?

  • A variety of commentators have taken...
  • ...but are said by some feminist critics not...
  • Critics writing from this viewpoint...
  • Some of these critics have claimed...

There is more, but already this is far too much. Please refer to notable sources or it will be necessary to add a tidy request to the section.

Next we have this gem: Some critics also view the protagonists of cyberpunk as highly Americanized, "cowboys" poised against the collectivist world of Japanese corporations or against European financial dynasties. Leaving aside just who these some may be the rest does not work out either. It completely neglects the cyberpunk works of Japan and South Korea (ref Cyberpunkreview for numerous supporting examples) and suffers therefor a US-centric view. Financial dynasties is perhaps a reference (too vague again) to the dynasty in Straylight but again is insufficient to extrapolate to a trend.

But there is more: It has been argued that this repeated use of the cowboy theme meshes well with the images associated with Ronald Reagan Is this relevant at all? You could make the same nonsensical argument to any actor or politician playing up the ruggedness card.

And again: A recurrent criticism of cyberpunk is that it assumes a dualistic picture of the human body and mind, analogous to that of Descartes, and conveying an antipathy to embodied human life. Once again, this is a concern to some feminist critics. Well, just why is this a concern and why to these (nameless) feminist critics?

One possible reference for the latter (criticism of dualism in the context of feminist/gender theory) is this: Foster, Thomas: "Meat Puppets or Robopaths?: Cyberpunk and the Question of Embodiment." Genders, 18 (1993): pp. 11-31.

The entire section is noting short of a total disaster and is in serious need of rewrite or flat out removal. --85.164.89.133 14:34, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Agree that Criticism section reads like author has an anti-cyberpunk agenda of some sort. Worse yet, as the previous writer indicates, it contains many unsubstantiated claims. Thus I'd also recommend a comprehensive rewrite or deletion. The inclusion of Brin's sour grapes comments strikes me as particularly silly. I also wonder why Gibson is not quoted more extensively, here and elsewhere in the article, Sterling as well.

On a purely egotistical note, I can't resist suggesting that some of my own contributions, several available online, be linked to. See http://www.dthomasmaddox.com. Tom Maddox 18:55, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

  • While I agree with the critiques poised on general terms, they are not adequately put forth in the article as it stands. Those of us with inquisitive mindsets would probably do well to chart out the literary circles in search of concrete, verifiable claims, in form of book reviews, essays &c.
  • As it stands, there is too much that is weaselly or plain nebulous in the section, and it provides no useful knowledge for the knowlessman in search of more information of the topic of cyberpunk critique. It is, essentially, a cul-de-sac full of "some" and "certain critics", with no way out for the erudite seeker of truth. We need names and dates, direct quotes from the instigators of specific critcal viewpoints if at all possible. If these critiques are as prevalent as we are led to believe, surely finding someone, anyone in the literary criticism sphere to function as a reality anchor. --Agamemnon2 07:56, 21 April 2006 (UTC)


There's very little good in that section. I am for sexual equality but it seems like an overzealous feminist punched a few lines in there:
"Some of these critics have claimed that cyberpunk's heroes often establish their masculinity by dominating a technology described with female metaphors — in essence, through metaphorical rape."
--A Sunshade Lust 23:03, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

More than a month has passed with no resolution so I tagged the offending parts of the criticism section as well as the article itself. Googling reveals nothing that seems credible in backing up these alleged criticisms but as a non-expert I'd rather leave that judgement to others. If usable sources cannot be found I suggest the entire criticims section be wiped. --19:50, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Latest rounds is that the entire criticism section was wiped and 15 minutes later restored though without rv tagging and no comments in the talk section. I am in favour of deleting it since quite a long time has passed and noone has come up with citations. Anyone else? --21:41, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Removed pending citations

I've removed this section as it doesn't provide citations. The article is a really good read, and I'm not surprised it became an FA, although it would be nice to have more Free-use images. I'm not sure if the one on Lain would be allowed here under fair use. - FrancisTyers · 09:49, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Note, I'm not saying that this section is necessarily wrong, indeed some of the criticism seems well founded, but it could do with less weasel words and some more citations. Also, drop the fair use image. I'm sure a Free use image of a "razorgirl" could be found. - FrancisTyers · 09:51, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Criticisms

Image:TrinityMatrixCharacter.jpg - Trinity, heroine of the Matrix trilogy, is an example of the "razorgirl" type.]]

A variety of commentators[citation needed] have taken the "canonical" cyberpunk works to task, pointing out dubious aspects of the genre. For example, many of the genre's heroines take after Neuromancer's Molly, becoming "razorgirls", who may have sex appeal for a male science fiction readership but are said by some {{Fact}} feminist critics not to be liberated or well-developed as characters. Critics[citation needed] writing from this viewpoint tend to find presence of such characters disturbing, particularly when compared to female protagonists in unequivocally dystopian science fiction (e.g., Margaret Atwood's The Handmaid's Tale). Some {{Fact}} of these critics have claimed that cyberpunk's heroes often establish their masculinity by dominating a technology described with female metaphors — in essence, through metaphorical rape.

A recurrent criticism[citation needed] of cyberpunk is that it assumes a dualistic picture of the human body and mind, analogous to that of Descartes, and conveying an antipathy to embodied human life. Once again, this is a concern to some {{Fact}} feminist critics. However, other critics[citation needed] have seen cyberpunk as projecting a more sophisticated and modern picture of the mind and its relationship to the body, one that should not be confused with Cartesian dualism and has more to do with cognitive science.

Johnny Mnemonic

"William Gibson has also been adapted: Johnny Mnemonic (1995) was not successful, but detailed Gibson's world rather faithfully."

Having seen the movie and read the story (Chapter 1 of the "Burning Chrome" compilation,) I have to disagree, but I feel it would be a bit hasty to just delete it without discussion.

Basically, the movie took a page or two from a ~20-page story, then stretched it to feature length and crammed it with filler... The world was de-cyberpunked and sanitized to a more or less contemporary non-fiction state. In the end, the movie bore more than a coincidental resemblance to the original story, but that's hardly a faithful representation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fuchikoma (talk • contribs) 2005-11-29T15:56:12

  • It's been a while since I've seen the movie, and it certainly took some creative license with Gibson's story, but the core of the dystopian world described in the story is still there in the film. I don't really see how one could consider The Free State of New Jersey "contemporary", or the sentient dolphin "non-fiction." Regardless of critical acclaim (or lack thereof), both the story and the movie are classic examples of cyberpunk fiction. Simishag 01:18, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
    • "detailed [...] rather faithfully" is wrong, pure and simple. From this, I'd expect a movie that is a lot closer to the story than that movie actually was. "lo-tek"? No-show. A pretty important no-show if you ask me. In the genre of cyberpunk, that is. (Not "dystopian fiction" or whatever that may be called). Molly? "castrated" if you will. She doesn't even play that big a part, she comes across as rather a "damsell in distress" than the other way around. So, in conclusion, it might contain what you see as Gibson's world (and he wrote the screenplay... but how much of that was left in the released movie?). But the comment is misleading because people could (and will) think that the story and the movie are counterparts, when they're anything but. --jae 17:46, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
  • I won't dispute any of those points, but they belong on a page for JM, in a comparison of the story and the screenplay. It is way too much detail for this article. The movie has obvious cyberpunk influences and references, and it deserves a mention here. I will add a short note about creative license. Simishag 00:26, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

editorializing

there is a great deal of non-NPOV editorializing in this article as it currently stands. I'm making several changes which should neutralize the tone of the article a bit. most specifically, as it currently stands, there is a lot of "Most critics say" or "critics agree that" stuff going on that is specifically editorial. For example, if you want to say that some critics think that the new wave writers of the sixties were more innovative than the cyberpunk writers, that's fine, but you need to sight a source and not explain it as though it were received wisdom or common knowledge, and confine it to the section specifically set aside for criticism.JFQ 19:49, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

  • The term "post-cyberpunk" is listed way to prominently here. This appears to be an article posted by one individual (Persson), and is intended to define all works from 1993 and onward. Yet this is really a distinction without meaning. Even the works cited (Transmetropolitan, for instance) bare absolutely no resemblance to the concept expressed. In short, Post-cyberpunk, to the extent that its expressed at all, should be posed as a theory by one individual, and not a term widely adopted. The number of counter-examples to this term in all medias after 1993 far outwiegh the actual ones that apply. --Sfam 22:14, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Fashion

Where can I find out more about cyberpunk as a fasion style, I saw a girl today whering lots of neon, false dreadlock (with neon woven in) chucky shoes, lots of peircig , I would like to find out more about the origins of this as a sub-culture Back ache 18:20, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Opening Section

I'm sorry, but the sentence:

"Unlike New Wave Science Fiction, which featured the importation of stylistic techniques and concerns that already existed in literature and culture at large, cyberpunk originated in the science fiction genre first before gaining mainstream exposure"

is at least both rather unclear in execution and contains redundant clauses, and at worst fallacious in its intended claim. What, precisely, is this contributor attempting to say? The two clauses in the sentence seem to have been linked as an attempt to highlight a contrast by the nature of their semantic symmetry, but it is not actually clear that they are discussing the same issue. By its association with the first clause, the second clause seems to imply that New Wave Science Fiction did not represent an evolution of SF per se, but rather was literature that became SF after "gaining mainstream exposure". Generally, there appears to be a peculiar circularity in the second clause regarding the "origin" of Cyberpunk. Furthermore, it appears to contain a rather redundant claim: I would have thought that if something "originates" somewhere, then by definition it does so in that place "first". Regarding the first clause, is it actually the case that Cyberpunk, "Unlike New Wave Science Fiction" did not "import" "stylistic techniques" or "concerns that already existed in literature and culture at large"? Anybody who has actually read, for example, Gibson's collection "Burning Chrome" would hesitate to agree to the former claim (eg. the non-linear chronology in "Fragments of a Hologram Rose"). Regarding the assertion about Cyberpunk not "Importing" pre-existing cultural "concerns", surely this contributor is not seriously attempting to claim that Cyberpunk came out of an artistic and social vacuum? I would have edited this passage myself, but I am honestly not entirely clear that I understand what, precisely, the original contributor intended. Rather than impose my own views regarding the stylistic differences and origins of New Wave and Cyberpunk respectively, I was hoping that perhaps the original writer could revise this passage. Dusksailor 13:46, 14 August 2006 (UTC) --

"The street finds its own use for things" is quoted, but not attributed. I think it's William Gibson, but I don't know where it's from, so I can't verify that. Can someone else? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.233.98.69 (talk) 2007-04-15T20:50:27

64.132.236.33's edits

I don't understand some of the edits you made. Several of them are rather significant. --There wasn't anything wrong with the statement in the lead paragraph --Postnational settings aren't necessarily a defining characteristic of cyberpunk, nor is urban decay. --GitS:SAC isn't that typical of an example of postcyberpunk, even though it may fit into the category. It also isn't particularly prominent in the category, and is also a series adaptation of the more popular movie. --There wasn't much reason to remove the explanation of Neuromancer, as it fits under the literature category. Xombie 10:33, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Paranoia?

Forgive my status of being a malcontent, but...

I have a hard time swallowing the line stating that cyberpunk has been featured in "Computer games, board games and role-playing games (such as Paranoia)"... If you've ever played Paranoia, I can't fathom "cyberpunk" having anything to do with it. Heck, the entire White-Wolf game line has more cyberpunk!

Paranoia is a game based upon the concept of "mostly unrestrained silliness" in laymans terms. All which is cyberpunk is rooted in "dark, grittty future". Let me tell you friends, there is nothing dark or gritty about being killed by scrubbots. Paranoia assumes you will die in 6 ridiculous ways every adventure.

At any rate, could I assume that there would be no objections to simply replacing the reference to Paranoia with another game which actually is cyberpunk?

I'm thinking Shadowrun would be an easy and logical choice, although the prevalence of magic doesn't really fit in with a classic definition of the genre, which brings to mind Cyberpunk 2020, which more tightly fits the ideal.

I'll ask here before correcting the error. This was, apparently, a featured article after all, regardless of inaccuracies. CameronB 19:47, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. I found it hard too; but when I thought about it, the (halas too) obvious replacement was Cyberpunk itself, and you can understand why that's not really convenient (a tad too easy if I may say). Shadowrun, as you pointed, is a bit tricky too. Althought it tries hard to stick to the background, it always ends up in some prophetic Fantasy story. Other options include GURPS; Transhuman Space (a bit too far ahead IMO), Bitume MK5 and Berlin XVIII (two french games of little notoriety), and the third edition of the white wolf series. Be bold. --SidiLemine 10:28, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
Very well then, consider the Edits completed. Hmm... I must say I'm suprised that I was able to actually come up with a reason to make an edit on the sight. User:CameronB 65.102.93.45 19:25, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Genetic Engineering in Cyberpunk, Postcyberpunk and Biopunk

Via discussion on Talk:Biopunk, after further reviewing the three subgenres, the cyberpunk article and the postcyberpunk article seem to have a potential, mild disagreement. Postcyberpunk included the topic of genetic engineering, while the article on cyberpunk does not. Genetic engineering does belong to the computerized technological science-fiction genres, i.e. cyberpunk. As can be seen in the postcyberpunk movie, The Fifth Element, the character Leeloo is regenerated via a futuristic device that is explained as using genetic code to rebuild a person from even the smallest amount of genetic material. Since even modern genetics can't be employed without the use of technological advancements, this fact furthers the evidence that it is directly tied to computers and information technology. Genetic Engineering should be included in cyberpunk. Additionally, the need for biopunk as a science-fiction subgenre should be reconsidered. --Calviin 18:08, 20 December 2006 (UTC)


BioPunk could deal with cyborgs, clones, or other creatures that then go dissent or are then the marginalized people, a shift from an anthropocentric world/narrative to a more bio-centric worldview/narrative. williamsparker, Austin, TX

The Fashion section

In my opinion the section covering cyberpunk fashion doesn't match the quality of the article in general. Unfortunately I have very limited knowledge on the subject, so I can't improve it much myself. - x-Flare-x 13:57, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

WP:SIZE/FARC

This article is too long. The music section is much, much too long relative to its importance in the article as a whole. This needs a serious trimming. Also, the lead is much too long, and there are a lot of puffy, subjective POV adjectives scattered through the article. Have to consider nomination for featured article removal candidate. Avt tor 08:26, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

self ref?

Is writing like "The rest of this entry will focus on works that define cyberpunk as its own genre, which is distinctive within the larger category of science fiction." realy a good idea? Besides, as the articel is edited, additional content may make it inaccurate. DES (talk) 20:38, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Unclear reference

The article now says: "But unfortunately for cyberpunk's arguable originator, the films Johnny Mnemonic (1995) and New Rose Hotel (1998) were both flops, commercially and critically. Gibson fans derided the screenplay as deviating substantially from his original work, even though Gibson wrote the final screenplay himself." Which screen play was so derided, or was it both? an should ther be a cite to someone expressign such derision? DES (talk) 20:47, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Metropolis-anime-dvd.jpg

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"Decoct novel"?

The article says:

After his popular decoct novel, Count Zero (1986)

Even after a trip to the dictionary, I have no idea what is meant here by "decoct". It is so bizarre that I suspect vandalism. If nobody explains what it means here, I'm going to suppose that it is an error (or at best a neologism) and remove it. If someone does explain it, perhaps we can replace it with a word that is less puzzling. -- Dominus 20:28, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Over generalization

the line from the intro "Today cyberpunk themes are evident in almost all contemporary works of science fiction." Is IMO a large over-generalization. While much recent SF is influencd by cyberpunk to soem degree, I would have no problem at all in citing lots of recent works that are not apparently so influenced. SF is by now a wide river, with many sub-currents. No one school can be considered to have influenced all of it, or anything like all of it. Perhaps just chanign "almost all" to "many" would fix this. DES (talk) 20:36, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

As a point which could help remove some of the generalizations is one defining factor I've always used to define Cyberpunk -- one of the "punk" attributes is violation. Much of the early works feature rape of the body, mind, culture, corporation... holes in the head for computer interfaces, implantation of remote-control biologics to ensure behavior and so on. The Post-Cyberpunk items are a lot less likely to feature such punk themes.Joelfinkle 01:52, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Arpanet

Should we add the band arpanet to the music section? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mnml (talk • contribs) 20:51, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Digital Hardcore as Cyberpunk music?

In my opinion, Digital Hardcore, albeit a smaller genre, embodies much of the Cyberpunk culture. In fact, by its very definition, it is a combination of hardcore techno and punk rock, which would be etymologically suggestive of such a connection. Atari Teenage Riot, for example, made a clear, although nihilistic, reference to cyberpunk culture in the track "Cyberpunks Are Dead!". Should this be worked into the article? michaelb Talk to this user 19:51, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Questions on the Anime and Manga section

Cyberpunk has influenced many anime and manga including Appleseed, where the focus is on the urban cyberpunk conflict in a post World War III environment. Akira would be an representation of Armageddon. Hayao Miyazaki’s version of Metropolis also concentrates on a “Puppet Master” for the cyborgs, just like the hunt for one in Ghost in the Shell.

1. In the sentence about Akira, does "Akira" allude to the manga/anime or the character?

2. In the last sentence; which is the version of Metropolis that's mentioned? My guess is Metropolis (2001 film), but as far as I can see on its article it has nothing to do with Hayao Miyazaki.

These things would be good to have clarified so the links can be pointed right. - x-Flare-x 15:07, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

I have a question,

Also of note is 2004's Steamboy directed by Katsuhiro Otomo. Here Otomo focuses on a nuclear holocaust and the arms race and how a cyborg is less human and more machine

Has the person who wrote this part even SEEN Steamboy? And why is a reference to steampunk even included in this section? -Xexyzl —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.31.193.20 (talk) 04:57, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

I think the ".hack//" (dot hack) series franchise needs a mention.

My knowledge of cyberpunk is very limited, but I do know that .hack// is a very special kind of cyberpunk. To me anyways. Just search it up on ...wikipedia. It's basicly set in the future, where the internet crashed, a new OS started, and a new MMORPG is played, which actually has something to do with creating artificial intelligence.There are also themes of Second Order Simulcras (Don't know if I used that right). Anyways, please excuse the run-on sentance, I'm not a professional writer, which is why I'm bringing it up. I'm just saying .hack// needs a mention in the Anime section. Although, it is a huge franchise. There's the 4 videogames which started it, and the anime...and everything.

Hope someone interested adds to this page...thank you in advance?

142.162.137.27 22:56, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree, someone should definitely add mention the //.hack , especially since Serial Experiments Lain, which is also a cyberpunk anime, has already been noted in the article. Xx Scala Caeli xX (talk) 03:15, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Do us a Favour

Could any of yous give me the names of some novel etc i should read...what do you recomend...you can message my talk page cheers Nothing too obtuse or outdated...something to get me in on the scene if you know what i mean....thanks Owwmykneecap 05:23, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Read the article. dposse 21:42, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Neuromancer
I'm sorry but Neuromancer, althought it is my favourite, and is considered the archetypal cyberpunk novel, is quite obtuse, and pretty much outdated. From the same author, I'd go for the Bridge Trilogy: Virtual Light, Idoru, and Tomorrow's Parties.--SidiLemine 10:19, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

the diamond age, by neal stephenson, is a good cybertpunk book —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.113.6.227 (talk) 03:50, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

"although the style was popularized well before its publication by editor Gardner Dozois"

Is this supposed to mean Dozois published it, or that he popularized it? Unclear. Thmazing (talk) 22:04, 21 March 2008 (UTC)Thmazing

Lone Heroes

This article reads...

"Protagonists in cyberpunk writing usually include computer hackers, who are often patterned on the idea of the lone hero fighting injustice: Robin Hood, Zorro, etc."

Robin Hood was not a lone hero. He had a band of merry men who are an integral part of any Robin Hood story. Not even the Lone Ranger was really alone, he had Tonto. In literature it is hard to find a truly lone hero. It seems every hero needs his interlocutor or chronicler. (This may be a matter of necessity in plays, TV, films - the hero needs to disclose his thoughts, plans to someone for the sake of audience understanding.)

To cut to the chase, is Cyberpunk particularly distinguished by having truly lone heroes?

Robin Hood was a fighter against injustice: does this description truly fit the Cyberpunk hero. Is the Cyberpunk protagonist truly heroic?

TJ (talk) 15:10, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Hackers/Antitrust

I'm surprised these movies have not been ammended to the film list, due to their mentionable albeit "B" movie popularity.

Hackers [8] has a very blatant cyberpunk theme that transcends the story alone.

"I am a hacker and this is my manifesto..."

While not generally focused on sub cultures, Antitrust [9] does portray a viable example of a cyberpunk mentality within the software development realm. 05:57, 4 December 2007 (UTC)


I haven't seen the movie and have no opinion about it, but is there a good reason for 64.251.146.150 to remove Hackers from the list of influential films? --Jim Henry (talk) 10:55, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

High-importance

Just for the sake of clarity, could it be stated why this article is classified as 'High-importance' Thanks - GW —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.18.192.163 (talk) 20:31, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Actually i just re-rated as Top importance for the SF project. It is impossible to understand modern science fiction without knowledge of cyberpunk, and all serious discusions of SF touch on it at some point.Yobmod (talk) 13:01, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Concerning Issac Asimov and Frank Herbert

I'm sorry to say but the Foundation/Dune books are not Cyberpunk. Sure they have some similaritys but I mean seriously, Starwars is more cyber punk than those two series. p.s. I have read both of the series and I know from personal experence that they are again Not Cyberpunk. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.210.116.156 (talk) 14:33, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Berlin Sony Center

I'm not clear what the picture at the top of the page is supposed to be doing there. Does the Sony Center have significance to cyberpunks or cyberpunk literature? The comment below the picture says, "Berlin's Sony Center reflects the global reach of a Japanese corporation." Yes, it does. But is the Sony Center itself a cyberpunk creation and/or mentioned in cyberpunk literature? Could I put a picture of a galaxy in the science fiction article and say, "Science Fiction is often set in space" beneath it? I'm just trying to figure out what its purpose is. glocks out 20:38, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

This picture seems pretty pointless to me, unless someone can offer a clear explanation of why it is being used then it should be removed. As far as I can see, it has a vague cyberpunk look, but no source to suggest that it was built specifically to look cyberpunk. I'm sure that there are many other, more appropriate pictures that could be used. magnius (talk) 13:47, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Cyberdelic

I have expanded and improved the Cyberdelic article in light of its exploration of Cyberpunk as a counterculture rather than a science fiction genre. --Loremaster (talk) 15:23, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

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Clean up

Could someone clean up both the music section and the recently adjusted film section. Although they need abit of a clean up, and maybe a reference or two, could someone manage to do it without just deleting it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Feargarden (talk • contribs) 15:39, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Note, most of the deleted examples were actually moved to List of cyberpunk works and cited there. Once that list is comprehensive enough, it should be easier to write a good music section for example, with all the cources used there.Yobmod (talk) 15:45, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Cowboy Bebop

Is Cowboy Bebop actually a cyberpunk series? To me it fits in a broader Sci-Fi scope: The time is distant (colonizing of the solar system), the theme is clearly not a "man vs. tech", or any other cyberpunk usual themes, the mood is, if not cheery, light, and settings are very often in open space, rather than neon-lit back-alleys. Plus the network plays a very little role. I agree that "post-cyberpunk" is too easy a term, but there is a new trend of space-opera developping, more centered on individuals, local communities, and the difficulties of expansion in the solar system in whitch Cowboy Bebop fits more neatly. Anyone has a name for it? 82.151.86.114 16:47, 22 August 2006 (UTC)Sidi

I would say that Cowboy Bebop is not a cyberpunk series. The genre doesn't really fit in any fashion beyond being science fiction. Cowboy Bebop is usually considered a space western, if anything at all, since the series was designed to break down genre barriers and focus more on characters and attitude. 'Kash 20:33, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Well, there was that one episode, Brain Scratch, that was definitely cyberpunk. And Ed is a very cyberpunk character. But in general, you're right, you can't really pigeonhole it like that. —Keenan Pepper 00:51, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
Ya, I wouldn't want to define an entire series based on the vents of one episode. The majority of it doesn't really seem to fit the bill. 'Kash 21:03, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Space Western is not bad at all, but I find it hard to coin a genre for a single series. Instead I'd very much like to find a genre in which Planetes would fit too...--SidiLemine 15:51, 24 August 2006 (UTC)Sidi

Planetes is hard scifi. I don't there there is anything in that series we couldn't do today with enough money. Fafnir665 (talk) 03:32, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Crap, I forgot my login... anyway... "Cheery... light"? Have you actually seen Cowboy Bebop? I've watched it through multiple times, and that's pretty much the opposite of how I would describe it. It follows some very dark and depressing themes, and much more noir than western. I don't think it was meant to be a purely "adult" anime, so they don't go out of their way to alienate the young'uns, but I definitely think it was intended for an older, more cynical and "post modern" audience. And I would say a lot more activity takes place in neon-lit back alleys, hole-in-the-wall bars and abandoned buildings than in space. And most of the time in space is spent in damp, dreary equivalents of the same. If the definition of cyberpunk is "high tech and low life", then I think Cowboy Bebop qualifies. 97.66.141.234 (talk) 20:04, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Dick/Gibson on film

"The number of films in the genre or at least using a few genre elements has grown steadily since Blade Runner. Several of Philip K. Dick's works have been adapted to the silver screen. The films Johnny Mnemonic (1995) and New Rose Hotel (1998) flopped, commercially and critically."

Kind of makes it seem like Johnny Mnemonic and New Rose Hotel had something to do with Philip K. Dick.

Markku N. 130.234.178.109 (talk) 09:05, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Good point, I've added a little to make it clear who wrote the original stories on which those two are based. magnius (talk) 09:52, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Syndicate Game

Could someone add a good mention for the 90's game "Syndicate" and "Syndicate Wars"? These games are a staple mark of SF cyberpunk culture, riddled with cybernetic augments, megacorporations, crime and corruption, tech violence, and near-future low-life cities. It's the epitome of this SF genre for a computer game and I'm astonished that it hasn't been mentioned. Someone should definitely add this! More info here: "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syndicate_(video_game)" 71.226.61.138 (talk) 09:36, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

These games are already listed in List of cyberpunk works, so there is no need to clog up this article with any mention. magnius (talk) 10:23, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
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