Talk:Cynthia Lennon/Archive 1

Beatles wives

• Cynthia Powell is notable in history as the wife of John Lennon
• Maureen Starkey is only notable as a wife
• Olivia Trinidad Arias is only notable as George's wife; although she has done great charity work and helped to organise George's legacy those thing have flowed from her marriage to George

Please note I'm talking of encyclopedic notability, not casting aspersions on their value as human beings!!

To kinda confirm my theory, the above 3 articles are all rather lame as they stand.

Yoko Ono, Barbara Bach, Heather Mills McCartney and Linda McCartney are I think notable in their own right.

Pattie Boyd, I'm not sure, I think notable because of Layla', acting appearances etc.

My proposal, then, is to consolidate the top-mentioned 3 into an article on the Beatles' wives, which would of course have brief paras on the other ladies with the links to their biographies. --kingboyk 22:34, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

I'd say clearly that this article isn't nearly as comprehensive as the one on Yoko, or the one on Linda, and that there's lots more to say in those cases, but I'm not sure that a merge is needed, this article has enough to stand on its own. I do like the idea of a Beatles wives article though. It may get at the angle of what being married to someone that famous is like and what the 24 hours surveillance did to them (assuming sources could be found). ++Lar: t/c 21:09, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

My point is that what is said here about Cyn is just about all that can be said. Olivia's article is one line long (in fact in the past I had to revert a cheeky attempt at redirecting that page to George Harrison!). Lose 3 poor stubs, gain a nice article. That was my rationale, might be wrong though. Anyone else? --kingboyk 21:41, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Nod. With Olivia it's very clearcut, that unless there is a lot more to say, a merge is the way to go. But here, with Cyn, there's well over a page of article here. Not all articles are destined to be 25 pages long, some perfectly respectable articles need not be more than a page or so. So I'm not sure I agree per se. Not the end of the world if it got merged with a redirect though. ++Lar: t/c 06:28, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Alright, maybe make Olivia's article one of the 'improvement drive' candidates then? There is more to say about her - Concert for George, managing his reissues and legacy, charity work, photo. --kingboyk 07:47, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

(placing this here, since it's kinda parta the same thread) Jane Asher of course needs a standalone article, but I think she should be in the same subcat as the "wives". That would necessitate renaming the category. Comments? --kingboyk 18:49, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Beatles relationships? Beatles main squeezes? ++Lar: t/c 06:53, 9 March 2006 (UTC) (from STL)

Speaking as one who maintains a private list of non-notable spouses (a sort of hobby), I agree with the proposal, and I think Patti Boyd should go in too, all with proper redirects of course. My personal opinion is that Heather Mills should go in too, as her article is too long. Consider - if she wasn't married to McCartney, would her article be as long? No, she wouldn't have an article. Lots of people like seals or whatever. She's only notable as Paul's wife. But that's just my opinion. As for Patti Boyd, sure, Layla, but how did she inspire Layla? Was she really a muse for Clapton, or would any other wife have done as well? In this she differes from (say) Sara Dylan or Virginia Poe. Anyway, I say: Merge the three at least, and add Patti Boyd. As to the category, how about "Beatles Wives and Girlfriends"? Herostratus 17:33, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the comment and your broad agreement, but I find the argument regarding Patti vs Sara Dylan rather spurious. Only Clapton knows for sure, and Layla is a pretty hardcore, heartrenching song wouldn't you agree? :) (That said, Layla has it's own article now of course). --kingboyk 20:21, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Re: Patti - If she wasn't the subject of "Something" and "Layla", she is most certainly the muse for Claptons later "Wonderful Tonight" (a UK hit single). She had some small fame as a model before meeting Harrison, but her major influence is how her change of partners did not (publicly) affect the friendship between the two men - at least in the long run - which says something about them.LessHeard vanU 21:59, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Is being the inspiration for a song enough to earn a page? I know Layla is big but is it really enough? Are there pages for every inspiration of every numver 1 hit song? Also, George has said many times that Patty was not the inspiration for Something.

Sorry to resurrect an old thread, but I'm facing the same issue. List of Transcendental Meditation practitioners includes both Cynthia Lennon and Maureen Starkey. With all due respect, it's hard to find the right short phrase to describe their careers. "Spouse"? "Housewife"? It's not a problem unique to them - Pat Nixon and Anne Boleyn are also notable only for being wives. But they at least get titles - "First Lady" & "Queen". Any suggestions for Cynthia and Maureen?   Will Beback  talk  08:21, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

Name

The article says "After her divorce from John Twist, Cynthia changed her name back to Lennon by deed poll." Assuming this is correct, this page should surely be at Cynthia Lennon. I shall move it accordingly. Nick 17:56, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Picture

Can nobody upload a nicer picture? There are many more of John and Cyn, or even Cynthia on her own, that would be more suitable than the existing one.

I have uploaded four pictures. The one with her and John on the car is really good, IMHO. Cynthia on the car roof? What a babe... andreasegde 12:08, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Marriages

Maybe this should have a section on its own.... andreasegde 13:12, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

References

I am working on Cynthia's book first (because it's easier) but will go through the other books after that. andreasegde 14:36, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Length

"I got a feelin'" that this article could be a bit long, and I've just started working on it... andreasegde 15:21, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

I think the length is fine, and I like the articleTammiMagee 12:02, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, TammiMagee. The article will be longer than it is now, but I don't think there's much more to go in after Cynthia's divorce. andreasegde 14:21, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

30,012 bytes so far. andreasegde 13:46, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Nearly done

I have put this up for GA (which will take awhile). If anybody sees anything that needs fixing, please leave a note here or on my talk page. andreasegde 21:42, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

POV / not entirely encyclopedic?

I'm concerned the article reads somewhat non-npov - a vast majority of notes come from a book by Cynthia herself, which is not necessarily objective, and 2. not all information is entirely encyclopedic: do we really need to know how long she was in labour or how much Kenwood cost? Carrot Jones 17:15, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, and how about all that stuff about what a bitch Mimi was? Necessary?? Why??? --63.25.15.170 (talk) 14:42, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

It would take me about half an hour to put in extra citations from Spitz and Miles (which agree with Cynthia's comments) but I think it would clutter up the article. If that has to be done, I will very gladly do it. I was paraphrasing a published book, which nobody has said (in public, or in the courts) is wrong. If nobody sued her (including Yoko) then I think it stands. I thank you for your comments, BTW. andreasegde 18:19, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

• I think the cost of the house is important, and how much they spent on it, because of the modern kitchen equipment that Cynthia didn't know how to use.
• "how long she was in labour?" - that is something that women will understand (but not me, as I am a man) and will want to know. Do you have kids? If you don't, ask your mother :)andreasegde 18:32, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

49 in-line references from Cynthia's book, 30 from Spitz and 9 from Miles. One could easily take out 15 from Cynthia's which would balance it - but what would be the point? Anything referenced by her is referenced elswhere. andreasegde 18:19 2007 (UTC)

References

Cynthia now has 99 references, from various sources (59 from Cynthia). I hope that will suffice. andreasegde 09:55, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

The "Miscellaneous" section needs removing. LuciferMorgan 13:09, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Have done it. Thanks, LuciferMorgan (as always). andreasegde 15:23, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

GA review

Waiting for it... andreasegde 05:37, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Passed the article as a GA. It's one of the best I've seen nominated for the grading. However, try to expand the lead a little more - the one/two-line sentences don't really qualify as paragraphs. Another thing, have you tried getting in contact with the subject in order to release that infobox picture under a free license? Might be worth a try. Anyway, good work, and keep it up. CloudNine 10:43, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Mundane

This article is way too long, with many, many mundane details. E.g., the detail about all the various little rooms and flats she's lived in. Much in this article can be stated more succinctly. Not to diss her, but she was the first wife of John Lennon - she doesn't merit this much attention. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.189.169.190 (talk) 14:08, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

You are 'dissing' her, and you don't merit much attention by not having a user name (and not even using tildes.) --andreasegde 20:23, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Go ahead and dimiss by comments because I haven't created a username - not sure why that's such a big deal. I have nothing against Cynthia Lennon and didn't mean to diss her - but seriously, this article is too long and contains too many mundane details ("she lived in a semi-detached house"). You yourself wondered about the length at one point. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.189.169.190 (talk) 12:59, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

I said "this article could be a bit long",, which is far from beng too long. Living in a semi-detached house means somethng in the UK, because living in a terraced house like McCartney, Harrison and Starr meant—in the 1940s/50s—that you were working class and not middle class.

Q: Why are you worried about this article being too long? She was Lennon's first wife, had his first son, and lived with him through most of The Beatles glory years. How much would you cut out and where would it stop?

If Wikipedia sets a limit on how long an article should be (and this is less than the limit of 50,000 bytes) then what's the problem?

You know who I am, so create a username and we can converse, because then I will know who you are. :) --andreasegde 15:08, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

I see many opportunities to edit this article down. I gave it a try a while ago, but my edits were reverted. I almost expect to read what kind of toilet paper was used at Mendips. I'm not that concerned about the length or how important Cynthia Lennon is; justing stopped by and commented. Still think this article is way too long, and contains too much mundane detail. 165.189.169.190 (talk) 21:19, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

It's not a newspaper, and Wiki is not a paper encyclopedia. Put the scissors away and start writing instead of chopping...--andreasegde (talk) 11:21, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Kenwood picture

Hello. The picture on this page is not Kenwood. I think it could well be Sunny Heights, Ringo's former home on the same estate. It is not Kenwood though. The same picture is in the Bob Spitz book, and it isn't Kenwood there, either. There is an accurate picture of Kenwood available to Wikipedians, and you can see it, funnily enough, on the entry for Kenwood. By the way, someone like andreas should take a look at the Kenwood page - surely it is now better than start class? But any suggestions to improve it would be welcome.Brownhouse1 20:29, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

I recall reverting a vandal last month that claimed that this image was sunny heights. If this is indeed true, then I suggest that you be bold and edit this image's page (named "Image:Kenwood estate.jpg") to reflect the true nature of this image. In a minute or two, I'm going to switch the image over to the one used at Kenwood, St. George's Hill so that the image is unambiguously Kenwood. Thanks, Lisatwo 02:10, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

The photo was taken from Bob Spitz's book (see article for ISBN) and is definitely Kenwood. Spitz worked on the book for 7 years, so I think we can trust his judgement on a photo. --andreasegde 15:11, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Oh, sorry about the picture swap. I should've looked up the book before making this hasty edit. Lisatwo 16:41, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

No guys, the picture is definitely NOT Kenwood. Take a look at the Kenwood page - someone has now put up a lot of pictures of the house, and the picture on this page doesn't match. Trust your own eyes! It's quite likely that this was taken from an agency who mis-labelled the pic at some point. However, there are pictures of Ringo outside Sunny Heights, and it looks really like this house, so my guess is it is Sunny Heights. As far as the Spitz book goes, whilst not without merit, it is well known for the number of mistakes it contains - 7 years' research or not.86.153.33.81 11:06, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

The photos on the Kenwood page are all GNU Free Documentation License. I'll go with any one of those. (They're nicer anyway because they're in colour). One was taken from a second-storey window, so it must be the one. Problem solved. --andreasegde 17:46, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

P.S. Errr... My only problem is that this google shot has no rectangular pool. --andreasegde 17:55, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

This one quite near has a rectangular pool but only access from Old Avenue, not Cavendish Road. --andreasegde 18:02, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Was it this one? --andreasegde 18:08, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, that's Kenwood.86.153.33.81 18:11, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Drinks all round, people. I will copy over the 'sunroom' photo and put a link in to the google sat photo. --andreasegde 18:15, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Good work! 86.153.33.81 20:20, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Yeah an remember, "All YOU NEED IS LOVE" ("we have failed to paint it black, man." Dave) Vera, Chuck & Dave (talk) 22:07, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Sunny Heights

Where did Ringo live? --andreasegde 19:14, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

References

Any edit made without a verifiable reference will be deleted, including edits that are slipped into referenced sentences, BTW. --andreasegde (talk) 02:47, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Cumbria

For a long time probably during her marriage to Twist Cynthia lived at the village of Temple Sowerby in Cumbria I won't add this to the article just yet as I am unsure of the dates Penrithguy (talk) 20:10, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

If you can find a reference, it should go in.--andreasegde (talk) 11:16, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

+ Template:Story

The issues are all listed above. NB: Contrary to possible beliefs, a terse response to an issue someone has with the article isn't a full-out refutation of that concern, and doesn't make it close the case on it. -- C. A. Russell (talk) 18:06, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

I have thoroughly cleaned this article.--andreasegde (talk) 13:32, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

GA Reassessment

This discussion is transcluded from Talk:Cynthia Lennon/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the reassessment.

Starting GA reassessment as part of the GA Sweeps process. Jezhotwells (talk) 19:45, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Checking against GA criteria

GA review (see here for criteria)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose): b (MoS):

   Relationship with Lennon: The Beatles went to Hamburg in 1960,... - is this a second vist/ I ask because the previous entence talks about him retruning from Hamburg.

   The Beatles went to Hamburg again in April 1962, but she decided that she had had enough of living with Mimi,... - a bit of a non-sequitor there.

   Consistency - sometimes two hyphens are used as punctuation, sometimes one

   Style - it is difficult sometimes to decide which she is being talked about. I would suggest following the WP naming conventions Powell for Cynthia in the early years, Mrs Powell for her mother, Lennon for John Lennon.

   After the marriage, use full married name or his wife as appropriate. It is difficult and other editors may disagree, occasional use of Cynthia may be fine.

   Kenwood: ...nineteen-year-old student Pauline Jones, who was Freddie's fiancée... - who is Freddie? Is this another name for Alf, if so why - keep it consistent.

   The Beatles publicly renounced drugs (although never completely) bad gammar .

   Their decree nisi was granted on 8 November 1968.[95] She learned of Lennon's death while she was staying with friends in London. Wow! twelve years gone just like that. Need something in there. Re-roganise to put Lennon's death in proper chronological order.

   Overall, I feel there is too much trivia and the later section of her life is covered at a gallop. More balance and eveness required. Give the artciel a good copy-edit and see if a better way of resolving the over reliance on given names rather than family names can be resolved.

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

   Well referenced. I assume Good Faith for all print sources. Ref #30 on tripod [1] is not a reliable source;

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

   Rather unbalanced as mentioned above - a little more on her life after John left her and a little les on the rtivia, eg kitchen at Kenwood, etc.

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

   No source given for File:Cynthia and Julian at Kenwood.JPG. I think the status of this picture is rather dubious. Likewise no source given for File:Cynthia and brother father.JPG or File:Cynthia and John on flight to USA.jpg

1. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

OK, I am placing this on hold for seven days for these matters to be considered. Notifying major contributors and projects. Jezhotwells (talk) 00:20, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Well nothing has happened so I am de listing this. Jezhotwells (talk) 01:43, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

You may have noticed (by looking at my contributions) that I have been away for 14 days. It's called a holiday, y'know. As for your review, I have to point out that your spelling is not the best: "vist, entence, retruning, gammar, Re-roganise, artciel, rtivia, de listing". The kettle calling the pot black, methinks.--andreasegde (talk) 22:36, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Sources

You might want to look at http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/books/non-fiction/article568955.ece

Lots of interesting commentary there about the book and people's probable reactions to it. Written by Hunter Davies, who knew John personally, as well as others from and around the band.

Also, the Amazon blurb on John says he tried to suppress the publication of A Twist of Lennon as libellous. What did he find libellous in the book? Did he actually take it to court?

Things to find out.

Here is how I would rewrite the lead, to refocus the article on Cynthia's relationship with John:

Cynthia Lennon (née Powell) (b. 10 September 1939) was the first wife of musician John Lennon of the Beatles. She was married to Lennon from 1962 to 1968, the period of the Beatles' meteoric rise from an obscure British rock band to one of the leaders of popular music worldwide.

Cynthia Lennon wrote two books about John, A Twist of Lennon in 1990, and John in 2006. The books portray the rock star as passionate, creative, imaginative, but also as a philanderer, sometimes violent, and a heavy drug user. In her books, Cynthia contends that it was John's drug use that was a key factor in driving them apart. John attempted to suppress the first book, claiming it was libellous.

The Lennons met at art college, and after a stormy romance, married in a hasty ceremony after Cynthia revealed that she was pregnant with John's child. After their divorce, she remarried three more times. She now lives in Majorca, Spain.

Just trying to be helpful. --Ravpapa (talk) 07:26, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the links.

The problem here is between writing an article about Cynthia Powell or John Lennon. She didn't write the books about him, but her own life. (Of course, John was the most important thing in it, as well as Julian.) If her personal life is cut out, there is nothing to show why Lennon left her for Yoko. As ingratiating or sentimental as her book was (cheese on toast being a perfect example), it laid bare her total lack of comprehension of anything other than shoes and holidays. I think you may expect me to defend her, but I had trouble reading it, and even more problems actually putting it in this article. :))

I don't mind the article as it is, but pushing it more to an article about Lennon would gloss over who he actually married. No wonder he wanted it suppressed; I mean, who would want the world to know that you weren't the genius (in your private life) people thought you were? Good grief, what would have happened if she hadn't got pregnant and Lennon would have been single throughout the sixties? The Beatles might have broken up sooner.

Davies comments are interesting, but he's a writer, and has a vested interest in his own books. BTW, the chicken-throwing incident is either something he never found out, to his chagrin, or isn't true. Yes, I know about that. (ouch...)

I'll take a step back and look at the article again. Thanks for the input.--andreasegde (talk) 10:43, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

I am not suggesting that you take Cynthia out of the article, only that you concentrate on the thing that makes her notable. Had she married the registrar of deeds, she would not have an article in the Wikipedia. Had she married John Lennon and not written books about it, she would have merited mention in the article on John Lennon, but probably not her own article.

The article on Charles De Gaulle concentrates on his political career. The article on Franz Schubert concentrates on his life as a musician. The article on Cynthia should concentrate on her life with, and her reminiscences of, John Lennon. Where she went to school when she was 12 is something you might mention in a four-paragraph precis of her biography.

Also, your desire to expose her as shallow is on the right track - but your attempt to do this by relying only on the book not only fails, it is unfair. I fails because the article does not portray her as someone with "total lack of comprehension of anything other than shoes and holidays," as you put it. In spite of all the detail, I came away from the article without a clear sense of what she is like. It is unfair because, if you want to present this thesis, you need to find other people who say it.

And, for sure, there are others out there. I have no doubt that people close to the Lennons, and that John as well, have spoken in interviews and in writing about Cynthia and about their marriage. You have to find those things and quote them. That way, you will have an article that shows not only how Cynthia saw herself, but how others saw her as well. --Ravpapa (talk) 15:08, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Will do. I thought stuff like "sent an engineer to show them how the kitchen appliances worked" said a lot, but I probably was looking at the wood, and not the trees. Also, things like her mother making sure she went to art school by renting out a room meant something, because otherwise she wouldn't have met Lennon. I will do it your way, but the little details portray a background that is rarely seen in what is now The Beatles: Empire of Ages II. :)--andreasegde (talk) 17:56, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Too many idiotic details that don't actually say anything about her, her life, or her relationship with John.

Far too many petty details. Ie. is it really important that her and John had sex in alleyways when they first started dating, or that john sang a certain song to her in art class? I removed both of these as they are details fit for a novel, not an encyclopedic biography. Far more trivial details need to be removed as well... Harryirene (talk) 04:11, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Do you know what you are doing? Lennon's relationship with Cynthia had a profound effect on his life, not counting his mother and aunt Mimi. Lennon's attitiudes to women and his relationships with them were not trivial; they helped him compose songs. Please stop looking at the wood, and see the trees.--andreasegde (talk) 22:44, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Andreasegde, I agree completely with what you write: "Lennon's relationship with Cynthia had a profound effect on his life". But adding a lot of details about what restaurant they ate at after their wedding does not make that point. What you need to do is find other sources that say that. Surely there are biographies of Lennon that discuss his relationship with Cynthia? Interviews with people who knew them? What about interviews with Julian? "“Dad could talk about peace and love out loud to the world, but he could never show it to the people who supposedly meant most to him - his first wife that is my mother Cynthia, and her son, me.” (here.

You have an important point that you want to make in this article, and with proper research I believe you can make it. As the article stands, it misses.

Sorry for horning in again. I feel a certain responsibility toward articles I review. Regards, --Ravpapa (talk) 15:39, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

• You might think certain details are "idiotic", but where they got married and celebrated their wedding were the same places as Lennon's mother and father. Lightning does strike in the same place twice.
• Is it not important that Lennon (from a middle-class upbringing with Aunt Mimi) could not take her home? Does that not say something about Lennon?
• The sources are good enough, as they are reliable.
• Cynthia was hidden from the press for ages, and the details here are from the relatively few sources from her and the people that actually knew her and Lennon.
• Julian's thoughts should be on his page, because it's his page, after all.
• I also feel a "certain responsibility" towards this article, because over the last year it has been cut to pieces by editors wanting to chop out anything that doesn't mention Lennon. This article is called Cynthia Lennon, after all.
• She wrote two books about her life, and I'm sure nobody bought them and then went straight to the index to find out when Lennon was mentioned. People want to know why Lennon fell for her in the first place, and actually married her. This means detailing her own life, "idiotic" or not.--andreasegde (talk) 16:24, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

Hold on. As you once commented that "This is not a good article", I refer you to Walter Willson Cobbett, which is as bad as an article can get. Two references and so much white space. What about Ignaz Schuppanzigh? No references in the text at all. You state that you 'wrote' both articles. What exactly is happening here?--andreasegde (talk) 14:58, 26 February 2011 (UTC)