Talk:Danish cuisine/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Cmt.

There is already an article entitled Cuisine of Denmark. I have redirected all links to the article on "Danish cuisine" to the already existing article. Sfdan 10:58, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Intro

The introduction to this article is very long. Eleven paragraphs, but a word count gives me a mere 668. Hmm, I really do want to help out but I am not Danish so I do not know what to keep and what to throw out. ★Dasani★ 01:50, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Be bold and do what you think is best. Do it in a series of edits rather than one big one, and explain your rationales in the edit summaries. We'll revert what doesn't look right - honest :) Always best is to discuss your proposed changes here first and wait a day or two for comments. I'm half-Danish so I can offer a half-good opinion, but I won't say which half! :) Franamax (talk) 03:37, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
I've been a little boldy myself and took out what I felt were some extraneous paragraph's from the intro and made a few other tweaks. Please review and revert what you don't like from my changes. Yes, this article can be made better - let's discuss! Franamax (talk) 04:26, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

--It is also quite acceptable to have another shot or two of the Akvavit along the way. Children sometimes drink soft drinks instead.-- what the hell? they make their kids drink soft drinks sometimes, instead of the akvavit? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.244.194.34 (talk) 13:46, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Style inappropriate?

It seems that the intro in general sets forward a lot of statements that cannot be verified, and seem a lot like the personal opinion of the author(s) who wrote this, e.g. that Danes are conservative about embracing new foods, that Thai cuisine should be a major influence on the new Danish cuisine and even that the younger (!) generations embrace the traditional, rich cuisine. All these postulations have no references whatsoever, so would anybody mind me removing or rewriting them to be a little less POV? --Thrane (talk) 11:19, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

Be my guest. The entire article is somewhat POV. Inspiration could be found in the Italian cuisine article. A historic and regional setup would improve it a lot (someone seems hell-bent on the pickled herring btw). The entire article sounds like a sevent grade book report on Denmark, written by a Dane that doesn't really know anything about Danisk cuisine and thus relies on caricatures etc.--Nwinther (talk) 08:26, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
Yes, please go on Thrane, but it is not a job done in a few afternoons. I'm working on the dawiki edition of this article and I have trawled through many written sources (if you need help finding sources, just contact me and/or have a look at my list here: [1]). I'm not done and then dawiki edition is far from complete yet. Still you may find the dawiki edition useful because it has sources. There is only an extremely limited number of sources available in other languages than Danish btw. That's why I would suggest helping me on the Danish article first and then make a good translation into English. What do you think? Are you mostly interested in improving something history-related, something about modern eating patterns, about specific Danish foods, drinks? It would also be extremely useful, would you help me proofreading/improve wordings to improve clarity/spot incomprehensible parts in the dawiki article. User:Nillerdk (talk) 12:28, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

- The writer didn't say, that all young people feel that way, but it is true that many of us young danes enjoy cooking danish food. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.81.156.82 (talk) 15:11, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

The dawiki article is far superior to this weird nationalist account that seems to say more about how Danes generally represent their country abroad than it does about Danish cuisine. There are a number of factual problems as well. One example: martinis and cocktails are virtually unknown today in Denmark, and it is sweet mixed drinks that are popular. Are there any plans to translate the Danish language version? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.138.181.48 (talk) 13:40, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

I don't think so. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.232.153.146 (talk) 08:21, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Tips included?

Re: "Also included in the price are service tips and the good wages paid to staff, who are well-educated in their jobs. Because service tips are included, and wages paid to staff are good, it is not expected that one leaves an extra tip at the table, unless service is exceptionally noteworthy."

If the "tip" is included in the price of the meal, then how is it a tip? A tip is "a small amount of money received by some service sector professionals from persons they serve, in addition to or instead of a formally required payment." It seems to me that it would be more appropriate to simply say that the price of a meal is higher but covers a fair wage for the server, and therefore tipping is not required or expected. --Wormcast (talk) 05:40, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes this a bit odd as you point out. The text should instead explain that tips are not expected and that all staffs have wages. Tips are given occasionally however, even by Danes themselves and it is called "drikkepenge" (lit.: drinking-money). Some places have a specific collecting bowl for them, as they will normally share them among the colleagues. I guess all people like tips once in a while, even in Denmark :)
I don't really know where to find refs on this right now, sorry. RhinoMind (talk) 23:10, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Difficult history?

The article initially states that Denmark has a "long and difficult history". As a Dane the history of this country does not strike me as particularly difficult compared to the rest of the world. It sounds like a cliché to me, taken from the common narrative of many other countries. I suggest deleting it. One could also add "citation needed" of course, but that would sound a bit silly, wouldn't it? --Thathánka Íyotake (talk) 23:43, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

No protests? There. Deleted it. --Thathánka Íyotake (talk) 17:34, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
Well, seen from a foreign policy perspective (gradual loss of empire over the last five centuries and several instances where it can be said there was a genuine threat of extinction of national independence) it would arguably be true. However what it has to do with Danish cuisine is completely beyond me, so I say good call in deleting it. --Saddhiyama (talk) 20:44, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
Hi. This an older discussion and already settled, but I would like to add, that it was probably meant to say something like "a long and complicated/detailed history". That it is not easy to grasp or quickly describe the overall history culturally speaking. The culture and cuisine of Denmark has changed considerably through the ages and it was quite different in the middle ages for example. I think that is what "difficult" was meant to say in some odd way. RhinoMind (talk) 23:19, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

This article is rubbish

There are literally NO sources on any of this stuff. As a native dane and chef I feel alienated reading this article. It should outright be deleted.

-- AK — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.18.128.75 (talk) 14:12, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

I certainly agree that the article needs very serious attention. As far as I can see, one of the problems is that User:Sfdan started the article with a huge, unsourced contribution of his own in February 2004. However, he has not contributed to Wikipedia since February 2008 and cannot therefore be expected to reveal any sources. It therefore seems to me that huge chunks of the article need to be rewritten from sourced material. I will try to embark on this course myself but would appreciate any reactions or assistance. - Ipigott (talk) 08:08, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
Just looked it over (haven't followed it for a while), and something struck me at the "Breakfast" paragraph. I've never heard the expression "Morgenguffer" and if I were asked what it means, I'd say it's a euphemism for fellatio (in the morning). Can anyone reject/verify?--Nwinther (talk) 13:44, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
The heading struck me too. I suppose it's slang for something like morning tasties. But of course it should be morgenmad. Do you agree the article needs drastic revisions? If so, I'll try to do something about it. (BTW, I see we share an interest in Danish modern furniture too.) - Ipigott (talk) 14:05, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
I just googled it, and at a quick glance there's one reference to actual breakfast. All other hits were referring to the sexual act. I'd say we can do without it. I have little litterature on the subject but I entirely agree that the entire article need to be rewritten. I wouldn't try to straighten it out though, but rather start from scratch with Italian Cuisine as a reference.--Nwinther (talk) 17:52, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
Good. That's the kind of support I need for step by step rewriting. You'll see there's no longer any guff for morgenmad! - Ipigott (talk) 18:28, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Comprehensive revision

In the light of the comments made on this page I've undertaken a pretty comprehensive revision of the article. In particular, I've tried to introduce appropriate references, not always an easy matter when virtually no sources were given previously. Some of the sections need further attention, especially the trend towards the development of a new Danish (or Scandinavian?) cuisine. There also needs to be better coverage of traditional Christmas meals and the accompanying recipes for baking. I have included a short section on Frk. Jensen but I would also appreciate advice on other literature worthy of inclusion, if possible English-language books too. There is no coverage of regional dishes. While these are not so common in Denmark, there should perhaps be something on the smokehouses of Bornholm and perhaps a little more on the preparation of seafood in the provinces. All suggestions, contributions, and criticisms are most welcome. Maybe a reassessment exercise would also be useful. - Ipigott (talk) 19:32, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Wow! There's been a huge improvement in this article. And kudos to you for adding new pictures. I agree that it should probably be reassessed, because it now reads as a very detailed, well-sourced guide to nearly anything related to Danish cuisine, whereas it was lacking (a lot) before. Peter (talk) 11:09, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

GA review

In light of the revision that has taken place under the hands of user:Ipigott and others, I have nominate this article for GA-status, on behalf of major contributors here. It may take several weeks to be reviewed, but feel free to encourage others to start a review. Peter (talk) 20:33, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

History section a bit skimpy

There is so much more that can be said about the history of this cuisine, if the Danish language version of this article is any indication. But not reading the language I can't know whether someone's already incorporated that info here in other places... if not, it would be worthwhile to run that section through Google translator and work it into the article to have more prose and less reliance on bullet points. Lemurbaby (talk) 19:47, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

In previous versions this article heavily mirrored the Danish version (especially the intro, which was very long), but it's just been rearranged and edited quiet a bit. I agree that an expansion history section may be a good thing, and I do think somebody should look into it, but at the same I feel that the section as it currently is is adequate enough to stand on its own; it clearly tells the reader how the cuisine has developed over time. Peter (talk) 01:24, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

GA Review

GA toolbox
Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:Danish cuisine/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Jezhotwells (talk · contribs) 02:24, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

I shall be reviewing this article against the Good Article criteria, following its nomination for Good Article status.

Disambiguations: found and fixed three.[2] Jezhotwells (talk) 02:27, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

Linkrot: found three, fixed two and tagged one.[3] Jezhotwells (talk) 02:33, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

A full review will be posted within 48 hours. Jezhotwells (talk) 02:40, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

Checking against GA criteria

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)
  1. It is reasonably well written.
    a (prose): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):
    The article as it stands is not reasonablt well written. Some examples below:
    Over the centuries, sausage, which was not only economical but could be kept for long periods, was together with rye bread behind the development of smorrebrød. implies that the suasage developed smorrebrød
    Pålæg (meaning put-on, actually "that which is laid on [the bread]"), the topping, then among others can refer to commercial or homemade cold cuts, pieces of meat or fish, cheese or spreads. Makes no sense at all.
    due to the pressures of the modern life "the modern life"
    Tartar, with salt and pepper, Should be "Syeak tartare"
    There will also be cold cuts such as hams, roast beef, salami, brisket of beef and spiced roulade. incorrect introduction of future tense
    Fish, seafood and meat are prominent parts of any traditional Danish dish. All of the fish mentioned here is seafood.
    Ris á l'amande is described in basically identical terms four times
    Other popular foods This section is basically lifted from this source.
    Overall, the tone is not encyclopaedic, much use of phrases such as For the average family;
    I found another copvio section lifted from this source
  2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.
    a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):
    ref #37[4] is a dead link, needs fixing.
  3. It is broad in its coverage.
    a (major aspects): b (focused):
  4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.
    Fair representation without bias:
    'Another reasonable place to eat is at a café.; represents an unattribute point of view.
  5. It is stable.
    No edit wars, etc.:
  6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.
    a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
  7. Overall:
    Pass/Fail:
    Due to copyright concerns, which affect a large part of the article, I am now failing this nomination. Jezhotwells (talk) 23:46, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

Both of those copyvios aren't. The first is that according to its "about this book" chapter "uses some material from public domain such as Wikipedia". The other is simply a pdf of an early version of this article. Neither do much to comply with the license terms but that doesn't make this article a copyvio. 95.166.78.149 (talk) 18:52, 2 January 2012 (UTC}

Wow. Good spot. I did have suspicions. What does this mean then? Does the information still need to be removed? (The first source references information being used from Wikipedia and other free sources here.) Peter (talk) 23:47, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

I blundered

I was entirely mistaken as it appears, as pointed out by the IP, that these were in fact reverse copy-vios. I have removed the templates, and withdrawn the report at Wikipedia:Copyright problems/2012 January 1. Thanks to User:95.166.78.149 for spotting this. The fail stands as the article is not really ready for GA, lists need to be incorporated into prose as much as possible and the tone needs to be more encyclopaedic. I would suggest looking at other cuisine articles such as French cuisine or Italian cuisine or any of the other Food and drink GAs for something to aim at. When you have improved the article, please seek a peer review before renominating at GAN. My apologies for the mistake. Jezhotwells (talk) 00:45, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Regional cuisines

In addition to the overall suggestions for improvements of the article, I suggest to incorporate a small section on regional kitchens/traditions in Denmark.

To the un-initiated, this suggestion might indeed sound weird for such a small country, but Denmark proper actually have regional food-cultures and traditions worthy of mention, especially in an article like this. That the country has some remarkable cultural variation for its small size, is also reflected in its many linguistic dialects. Like the spoken language, the cuisine is also evolving towards a more homogeneous expression though. Just like we see it across the world.

Being Danish, I might find some solid refs on this and put up a few lines about it with time, but now the preliminary info is here to see for all. Perhaps someone gets inspired and write up something? Here is a few important culinary cultures within Denmark proper that could/should be elaborated on:

  • Sønderjylland. This southern region has - along with its distinct dialect - several special culinary traditions.
    • Sønderjysk Kaffebord. The region is known for its wide selection of unique cakes and the tradition of Sønderjysk Kaffebord; a socializing event serving a variety of cakes, with plenty of coffee.
  • Bornholm. This somewhat remote island has - again along with its disitnct dialect - unique culinary traditions.
    • Several seafood dishes.
    • In the last decades, Bornholm has been heavily involved in developing quality food items and is now trade marketing its food industry as a high end quality brand (within Denmark at least). Bornholm produces unique mustards, beers, liquorice, sausages fx.

These are more or less old regional traditions within Denmark proper. There are also official plans for developing the regional products a lot more in the future, involving many different organizations. This issue is overlapping with the area of food products, rather than just the cuisine though.

Some useful links and sources might be:

Having said all that, I think we should at least link to the cuisine of Greenland, just as Faroese Islands have been linked. Don't know if there is an article on the cuisine of Greenland? RhinoMind (talk) 00:46, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

Sources

As this article miss solid refs and sources overall, I have tried to collect a few that might come in handy

Useful links

Suggestions:

RhinoMind (talk) 00:45, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

History

The history section needs improvements, and - of course - some solid refs.

Two researchers and mediators

Bi Skaarup and Else-Marie Boyhus (see section above also) have worked a great deal with this on a serious level and I believe some of their books and writings should be used as a solid base to build this.

RhinoMind (talk) 00:58, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

Danish cookbooks

Caroline Nyvang works at the University of Copenhagen and has done research on Danish cookbooks (1600-1970 in particular). In addition she appears to have a broad knowledge of the history of Danish cooking as well. In a radio program she explains that the first printed cookbook in Denmark, was issued in the year 1616 and that Danish cuisine has indeed been heavily influenced by French cooking, as other users has stressed and observed in other sections above. In particular the cooking amongst Danish nobility around and after the renaissance era, was influenced by France. Several cookbooks should explain that, according to the program. So now we are closer to solid sources on this issue.

RhinoMind (talk) 16:07, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Wording in History section

RhinoMind I saw your edit undoing my edit [5] and then your subsequent edit undoing your own edit. I look forward to your revision, but I have to tell you that I did not understand your edit summary for the undo. Also, "in close vicinity" is not colloquial in American English. No one says or writes that. "In close proximity", perhaps, or "in the vicinity", but not "in close vicinity". So I would suggest something that is colloquial and understood in both British and American English. (Also remember that conciseness is one characteristic of good writing.) CorinneSD (talk) 01:13, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

Oh yes, I see the problem now. English is not my first language, so I clearly made a grammatical mistake.
My initial undoing had to do with the content of the sentence and not with the grammatical correctness. The content needs to include the urban population and not exclude them by only referring to farmers and peasants. On top of that, fishermen and seafood also needs to be included, as fishing has been a very significant part of food productions in Denmark, for as long as people have lived there (which is about 15.000 years). Hunting and game has never been a significant contributor though, as opposed to other Scandinavian countries.
As I am planning to write up more content on the historical evolution of the Danish food culture and include info on regional kitchens within Denmark proper, I judged my undoing of your comment as "nitpicking". So that's the story of my two edits.
RhinoMind (talk) 23:40, 8 May 2015 (UTC)
RhinoMind If you're planning to add a significant amount of material, you might consider writing a draft in your Sandbox and then asking me (or someone else) to read it and correct any errors in grammar and style before adding it to the article. If it's just a paragraph, you can add it to the article and then I'll take a look at it. CorinneSD (talk) 15:18, 9 May 2015 (UTC)
Great! I thank you a lot Corinne for this offer. I am not sure when I am going to do it, but when it happens, I will know where to turn. RhinoMind (talk) 12:41, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

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