Talk:Daumantas of Pskov

A fact from Daumantas of Pskov appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 23 October 2006. The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that Daumantas of Pskov, a Lithuanian dynast involved in the assassination of the first Lithuanian king, was later canonized by the Russian Orthodox Church and became a patron saint of Pskov?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2006/October.

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Untitled

I suggest moving the article to Dovmont. That's how he is known in every primary source mentioning his name. --Ghirla ^-трёп- 07:16, 17 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

sources holds translation of his Lithuanian name. So i do disapprove movement to other place. M.K. 08:07, 17 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

What sources? Give at least one source from 13th century - there was no Daumantas, only Dovmont. Daumantas is example of backward lithuanisation. 81.7.98.250 (talk) 12:42, 13 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Jogaila's case: clearly Lithuanian, made career "abroad". Which name to use? Whichever you stick with, please use only one name in the article itself (and not like while in Lithuania - Daumantas, while in Pskov - Dovmont). Renata 23:57, 17 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Illustrations

Free illustrations are available here. --Ghirla ^-трёп- 07:40, 17 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Inaccuarcies and timeline

According to Lietuviškoji enciklopedija:

he married in 1266, not in 1270.
he first devastated Gerdenis' land and only then (on the way back) beat his 700 men army with 180 men on June 18, 1266 on banks of Dauguva.
in winter of 1266-1267 he organized the second raid to Gerdenis lands.
in 1267 Pskov and Novgorod organized a raid to northern Estonia. On Feb. 18, 1268 he beat Livonian Order.
in 1269 Livonian Order in revenge organized raid to Pskov for 10 days. Grand Master wounded.
in 1270 Yaroslav tried to get rid of Daumantas and push Aigustas as kniaz of Pskov.
in 1271 Livonian Order attacked again, this time with ships. Daumantas beat them up with 60 (?!) men.
in 1272 a larger army from Livonia came, but was beaten on June 8, 1272.
peace
Father-in-law affairs in 1282
nothing for 17 years
Livonian attack and death in 1299

Disagree with somethig? The first part of timeline in the Wikipedia article seems fuzzy. Renata 00:40, 18 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You are free to change if you are sure that your source is correct. I, for my own part, don't think it is more authoritative than Efron. --Ghirla ^-трёп- 09:15, 18 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I am not sure, that's why I am posting here and not directly in the article. Nevertheless, the Lietuviskoji enciklopedija has like 5 pages on him, quite detailed. Some other dukes have stuff mixed in from Bychowiec Chronicle, but this one quite clearly separates the matters. In essense nothing seems contradicting with what you wrote, except for timeline: what happened when and after what. Renata 13:59, 18 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 21:58, 9 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move

Article should be moved to Dovmont. Person realy did his "career" in Russia. In Russia mostly known under Dovmont, compare with Daumantas. In English results the same - Dovmont is much more popular compared with Daumantas, Pskov. + Pskov is necesseary because Daumantas could be used simply as Lithuanian name, look Daumantas results shows such persons: Juozas Daumantas, Daumantas Matulis, Juozas Luksa-Daumantas etc. 81.7.98.250 (talk) 13:14, 13 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Curiously enough, when one searches for Dovmont+Pskov half the results above melt away... Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:42, 13 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Anyway Dovmont+Pskov with 131 results is much more popular compared with Daumantas+Pskov with only 15. In Russia was only one Dovmont who lived, everybody knows, in Pskov, so no need to add Pskov. 81.7.98.250 (talk) 07:07, 14 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Have to oppose to current proposal. Initial comparison of presented sources can be hardly be called correct, as searching rules are differ. Hardly, an argument that Russian Cyrillic writing prefer Russian variant name over Lithuanian variant in Cyrillic is crucial to English encyclopedia. Also, clear attribution to name by adding Pskov or Nalsia should be added, IMO. (everybody knows is not argument as well). As we have township part which corresponds with Russian name Dovmont. In IMO important aspect to naming issue is that Dovmont is translation of Lithuanian name Daumantas. Slavs do no have diphthong -au-, and it changes into -o-, -ov-, and by default Lithuanian endings like -as- are being dropped. Probably solution could be to use Daumantas in Lithuanian affairs and Dovmant in Russian ones. M.K. (talk) 14:04, 14 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I also oppose the move. The reason aside the abovementioned, is that initially Daumantas the Lithuanian born noble and historians are not even sure whether he was the different person as Daumantas the Grand Duke of Lithuania. It would be misleading and strange at least to use the Slavic form of the name among the Lithuanian ones such as Mindaugas, Treniota and Gediminas.

Moreover, it is not correct to call Daumantas a "reconstructed name". Even today there are many people in Lithuania using surname Daumantas, and there are villages Daumantai (plural of Daumantas) in Lithuania and the two stems of the name have clear Lituhuanian ethymology dau(g) - much/many, and -mant - to think, hence something like a "prolific thinker" Iulius (talk) 11:15, 15 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

See no real arguments why should be used Daumantas. Person most of his political activity spent in Pskov, was a patriot of Pskov. In sources of 13th century only Dovmont is used. Daumantas is reconstructed variant by Lithuanian linguists in 20th century. All these Lithuanian names like Mindaugas, Gediminas were forgotten and once again are used only from interbellum times. Even more, names used in Lithuania can't be used as argument because all person names used in Lithuania are Lithuanized, like Boris Yeltsin in Lithuanian is known under lt:Borisas Jelcinas name. The search results in English are the same - Dovmont is much more popular. And according WP rules the popular one must be used. 81.7.98.250 (talk) 13:35, 17 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Lots of what the anonymous editor is saying is true. Just the same, if you want to press the Jelcinas argument, you'll probably agree that if a John from England went to Russia, he'd probably become Ivan, and a Jonas from Lithuania, or Johann from Germany, would become Ivan too. Is Timothy a solution, or is it too religous? Is Daumantas later Dovmont of Pskov, a possible solution? Dr. Dan (talk) 01:33, 18 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Sincerely I can see the same problem here as Jogaila/ Wladyslaw Jagiello issue. The same might be used here - Daumantas until the arival to Pskov and them maybe Dovmont? Yet the name of the article should follow the Jogaila precedent.Iulius (talk) 20:18, 18 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I've removed this page's entry from Wikipedia:Requested moves due to a lack of consensus on the move. If this changes, feel free to add another request. --Lox (t,c) 09:29, 31 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]