Talk:Del Bigtree/Archive 1
 | This is an archive of past discussions about Del Bigtree. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
| Archive 1 |
Page creation
Another new Wikipedia page! Please do not hesitate to improve it. Robincantin (talk) 11:39, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
Del Bigtree and a convention in Israel
https://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Right-from-wrong-Cancel-Tel-Avivs-anti-vax-convention-606505
Del Bigtree has been called out in this blog from October 31st, 2019 over a meeting in Tel Aviv on November 21st, 2019. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:640:C600:3C20:6477:36DE:E5F6:1C39 (talk) 23:34, 31 October 2019 (UTC)
- A little more than a blog post it seems, as Blum's columns also appears in the print edition as I understand it. Thanks, let's see what news coverage comes out of the convention, or if there is further controversy.Robincantin (talk) 02:24, 1 November 2019 (UTC)
Here is more on Del Bigtree.
Del Bigtrees podcast show Highwire
Here is Del Bigtree's official website called Highwire. It's a podcast and blog outlet that Bigtree is named as the leader of besides ican. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:640:C600:3C20:A51C:9FCB:1B0D:8E69 (talk) 14:11, 2 November 2019 (UTC)
Now Del Bigtree talks about how Vaxxed gave him attention. Note this is about Wisconsin's vaccination rates. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:640:C600:3C20:DD14:DE51:534B:4B16 (talk) 05:01, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
- Yes, the podcast is mentioned in the infobox and the text. Robincantin (talk) 19:44, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
Anti-Vaxxer Del Bigtree makes a claim that Natural herd immunity from COVID-19 is superior than a vaccine candidate to SARS-Cov-2
Yes in this article there are claims that Del Bigtree is making for political reasons over immunity to COVID-19
“If more people end up developing the infection, they can then spread it to people who either are also not immune or who’s immunity has weened and really put the whole community at risk,” said Dr. Young.
"I would never take a coronavirus vaccine, because there is no reason for me to," argued Bigtree. "All of science show us, to date, that getting a natural virus is far more a much stronger and thorough immunity than a vaccine has ever been able to create. I say that the natural immunity is the Ferrari of immunity and vaccines give you the Pinto of immunity." 2601:640:C600:3C20:DDB4:4970:F49:A650 (talk) 17:51, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
- There's no vaccine candidate and some evidence that having SARS-Cov-2 does not confer natural immunity, so this is just Bigtree being Bigtree. Guy (help!) 08:37, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
I knew politics is at play here it's all about Bigtree getting his candidates to Governor's offices, Congress and the White House.2601:640:C600:3C20:1CC4:9A47:1F49:94FF (talk) 14:45, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
Now Del Bigtree is whining that his Mask video has been censored by YouTube and in fact moved his video to Bitchute. https://mobile.twitter.com/delbigtree/status/128155734129337958
Del should know better because one his video is in violation in states where mask requirements are enforced2601:640:C600:3C20:69C6:8F6E:9386:F0C2 (talk) 03:47, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
Here is an Update on Bigtree, Science Based Medicine as gotten a new rant on Bigtree telling people to get COVID-19
What is the group that is really at risk? Let’s be honest about this and say something that might get me some trouble here, but let’s be honest. That group is very well known. It’s people over the age of 65—not just because you’re over the age of 65, but you’re sick with other diseases. You have heart disease. You have COPD. You have diabetes. You have issues, many of those issues coming from the fact that you didn’t treat your body very well while you were on this planet. And I want to talk about this for one minute as we close this down. That 0.26% are the most sick among us, and I have nothing against you. Go ahead and bubble wrap your house. Lock yourself in your basement. Go and do what’s necessary.
But here’s the problem. When you were my age, you were most likely eating food and fast food and Doritos and drinking Coca-Cola, which you’ll never find in my home. You were eating that all the time. You probably were drinking a lot of alcoholic beverages and really liked to party and enjoyed your cigarettes and said to yourself, “You know what? It’s more about the quality of my life right now. I don’t care if I live to be 100 years old. I want to enjoy my life right now. I like the finer things in life. I like good rich food. I like smoking a cigarette once in a while. I like to drink my drinks.” And you know what? Good on you! That’s the United States of America. No problem, that, some of my best friends think like that. It’s great, and they’re fun to hang out with. That’s perfectly OK.
But here’s what’s not OK. When you reach that point in your life where now your arteries are starting to clog up, your body is shutting down, and the alcohol is eating up your liver, and you have diabetes, or you have multiple COPD, you have asthma, you can’t breathe, all the cigarette smoking has finally caught up with you, you have heart disease because of the way you decided to live your life in the moment, here’s what you are now. You are pharmaceutical-dependent. You did that to yourself, not me. You decided that the moment mattered, and now you find yourself pharmaceutical-dependent, which is really what that 0.26% is, and that’s OK too. Thank God there’s drugs out there! There’s drugs that allow you to eat the Philly cheesesteak even though your body knows it hates it, but, go ahead, take the Prilosec. What difference does it make? Drug yourself! Drug yourself! Get through the day! Don’t exercise! Maybe just attach an electrode and see if a little electricity to the stomach will give you the abs you want.
Come on! Grow up! You made choices! And now that you’re pharmaceutically dependent, here’s what you don’t get to do. You don’t get to say I have to take a drug to protect you. That’s what this is. You don’t get to say I have to wear a mask and suck in my own CO2 to protect you. You don’t get to say I have to lock myself in a basement and destroy my career and take away my own ability to feed children because you are pharmaceutical dependent. You lived your life. You made your choice. And thank God we live in the United States of America so you don’t have to worry about grocery police standing outside a grocery store saying, “Really? You really need four liters of Coca-Cola? You really need four bags of Doritos or Chitos or Fritos or whatever the heck it is, little cupcakes with synthetic icing on them? You really need all that?” Because we could go there. We could go there. If we’re really going to get into each other’s schiznit, that’s what we could do.
Or could we live and let live? Eat all the Twinkies you want! Drink all the bourbon you want, and smoke as many cigarettes as you want, and when you find yourself pharmaceutical-dependent I will go ahead and say thank God the drug companies are there for you, but you do not get to make me pharmaceutical-dependent. You do not get to put me in the way of Heidi Larson, who wants to eradicate natural health and natural immunity and make us all pharmaceutical dependent.
From the Rant2601:640:C600:3C20:C51D:FA11:7C4E:50C0 (talk) 00:00, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
- Perhaps posting a link would have sufficed. I added the info to the anti-vaccination section, supported by this source but also others from news organizations. Added a sentence to the lead, as it appears peddling false info on COVID-19 is something he strives to be known for (and he's succeeding). Robincantin (talk) 00:00, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
True and it's for political gain2601:640:C600:3C20:A558:60C8:996C:9470 (talk) 20:14, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
Del Bigtree banned from YouTube
YouTube has just banned Del Bigtree for his rants in relation to COVID-19 and Vaccines2601:640:C600:3C20:81C9:4D6C:A7AC:F925 (talk) 17:11, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
- Added. Hopefully we'll be able to add a better source in the next few days, but it looks reliable enough. By the way, if you got an account and signed, you'd be notified when we reply to your messages. Robincantin (talk) 20:31, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
PPP Loans and Del Bigtree
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2021/01/18/ppp-loans-anti-vaccine/
Del Bigtree got bailout money for his organization during the pandemic2601:640:C600:3C20:74A8:E603:CDA4:DB59 (talk) 04:50, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
- WaPo is paywalled, and Valleycentral thinks I am in Europe, and cannot be trusted. -Roxy the grumpy dog. wooF 11:34, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
- There are other sources, I put it on the Informed Consent Action Network page when that came out. I don't think it belongs on Bigtree's page. Robincantin (talk) 11:37, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
https://www.texastribune.org/2021/01/18/texas-coronavirus-vaccines-ppp/
Here is more sources on this 2601:640:C600:3C20:35FD:EA4A:E2A9:276C (talk) 20:43, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
Del Bigtree and Advertisers on his show
That's right there are advertisers that are on Del Bigtree show according to media matters.2601:640:C600:3C20:4C6E:9FA0:575A:223 (talk) 19:07, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
Del Bigtree's connection to Siri and Glimstad law firm
https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/05/26/vaccine-mandate-litigation-siri-glimstad-ican/
Here is more Del Bigtree is named as a group represented in some of the Covid-19 lawsuits. A group associated with Bigtree is named Siri & Glimstad according to the Washington Post article.2601:640:C600:3C20:2880:6B3C:828A:559B (talk) 04:43, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
Name change?
Did Del Bigtree legally change his name at some point? The article says his father was named Jack Groverman, so that makes me wonder whether his birth surname was Groverman or Bigtree. According to this (which I’m not sure is accurate), his mother’s surname was Bigtree and it was derived from his Mohawk maternal grandfather, Norman Big Tree. Was he given her surname at birth or did he change it later? Does anyone know? 2604:2D80:6986:4000:0:0:0:6CC0 (talk) 05:05, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
Opinions and Bias
Wikipedia should strive to present only information, not opinions. Thus the mentions of false theories should be changed to just read "theories". A theory is neither false nor true, a theory is simply a proposed explanation. If someone uses the term "false theory" it should be their burden to provide references and substantial reasoning to justify their opinion. It might be better to use the term "disputed theory" rather than "false theory". — Preceding unsigned comment added by MinnesotaMuse (talk • contribs) 17:06, 28 December 2021 (UTC)
- A theory can be false. Theories should be tested and those that fail the tests are false. Really they aren't even theories anymore, but some people continue to believe them.
- The word false is used four times in the article. Once attributed to Bigtree, once in the title of a reference, once in a referenced quote, and once in Wikipedia's voice, where there are four references and a scientific consensus to support it. These are not opinions. I see no need to change the article. SchreiberBike | ⌨ 17:49, 28 December 2021 (UTC)
Del Bigtree rants about Vaccine Passports in relation to COVID-19
https://thehighwire.com/videos/vaccine-passport-pushback-gains-steam/
https://thehighwire.com/videos/are-vaccine-passports-the-end-of-america/
Del Bigtree is accused of making conspiracy theories surrounding vaccine passports as the COVID-19 vaccine is released and as states debate to remove vaccine exemptions not related to medical reasons..2601:640:C600:3C20:35FD:EA4A:E2A9:276C (talk) 20:48, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
Del Bigtree is also notable for showing up at state capitals whenever the Governors and State Legislatures want to debate on vaccine exemptions reductions or COVID-19 vaccine passport around the USA. 2601:640:C600:3C20:880B:7D1E:EE11:9CF6 (talk) 03:47, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
Del Bigtree advises RNC governors but he claims he is a Democrat according to this article.2601:640:C681:C260:B8F4:BF9D:8993:5B7A (talk) 17:39, 3 January 2022 (UTC)
NPOV issues in lead paragraph
@Roxy the dog: Howdy. Do you mind elaborating on your edit summary of "nope" for this revert? I am a pending changes patroller that stumbled across this article while doing pending changes patrol. This lead has some tone issues that I attempted to correct. I am pro vaccination, and honestly I think that using a less POV, more factual tone is not only encyclopedic and Wikipedia policy, but is also the best way to combat pseudoscience in general. Anybody on the fence about this stuff is going to read and trust a factual tone more than a biased tone. The current lead section comes off as too strongly anti-vax. In particular the words "baseless" and "despite". This is the wording I prefer. Thanks. –Novem Linguae (talk) 15:18, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
- If a thing is baseless like this then we are bound to say it. You are a pending changes patroller with just over a thousand edits and I am a pending changes patroller with an awful lot more than that. Who do you think has the better grasp on this sort of thing? -Roxy the inedible dog . wooF 15:52, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
- Your reply seems a bit off topic. I'm trying to discuss the POV wording of this article's lead section, not our editing records. –Novem Linguae (talk) 16:09, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
- Read the bit I just highlighted. -Roxy the inedible dog . wooF 16:13, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
- Isn't a conspiracy theory by definition baseless? Seems like an unnecessary jab. Ditto with "despite not being a medical doctor". Just say "he's not a medical doctor" in its own sentence. It makes the same point, without being POV. –Novem Linguae (talk) 13:07, 8 December 2020 (UTC)
- Del Bigtree IS anti-vaccine and he is not a physician. These are facts. He makes tons of money lying about vaccines, so we should be clear as to his background which includes the fact that he is not a physician, scientist, or public health expert. SkepticalRaptor (talk) 19:24, 8 December 2020 (UTC)
- Isn't a conspiracy theory by definition baseless? Seems like an unnecessary jab. Ditto with "despite not being a medical doctor". Just say "he's not a medical doctor" in its own sentence. It makes the same point, without being POV. –Novem Linguae (talk) 13:07, 8 December 2020 (UTC)
- Read the bit I just highlighted. -Roxy the inedible dog . wooF 16:13, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
- Your reply seems a bit off topic. I'm trying to discuss the POV wording of this article's lead section, not our editing records. –Novem Linguae (talk) 16:09, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
Words like "despite" and "baseless" add a persuasive tone. In my opinion, Wikivoice should be factual, not persuasive. I am fine with the content of those sentences staying in, I just want a re-wording for tone. I feel my edit fixes the tone without deleting content. [1] –Novem Linguae (talk) 13:01, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
- I'm basically ok with that, except my latest changes should be kept and "Bigtree is a public speaker" feels weird to me, as "public speaker" isn't a profession or position. I propose this wording:
- Del Matthew Bigtree is an American television and film producer and CEO of the anti-vaccination group Informed Consent Action Network. He produced the film Vaxxed: From Cover-Up to Catastrophe, based on the discredited views of Andrew Wakefield and alleges a connection between vaccines and autism.
- Bigtree's appeal as a public speaker and a recent influx of funding has made him one of the most prominent voices in the anti-vaccination movement. He has no medical training.
- During the COVID-19 pandemic, Bigtree propagated conspiracy theories about the origin of the virus, and urged his audience to ignore the advice of health authorities.
- - Robincantin (talk) 15:04, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
Bias
It's evident this article is biased. You can explain away how the wording and citations protect you from this charge, but you know you aren't neutral. It's a shame what's happened to Wikipedia. 2001:569:FD88:2B00:A676:ED5E:71D1:1071 (talk) 22:13, 12 February 2023 (UTC)
- You should look at my user page. All your bias are belong to us!! (There is a video on youtube. It's great. Look it up!!!) - Roxy the dog 22:21, 12 February 2023 (UTC)