Talk:Democracy is Freedom – The Daisy

Title

The rendering of this title is completely inappropriate: 'Daisy-Democracy' looks like a hyphenated word, as if there is something called "daisy-democracy" that this party advocates. Ludicrous. mgekelly 05:18, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

OK, I'll fix it. About to move to Daisy—Democracy Is Freedom. Heh, Daisy-Democracy. Ventifax

Actually, I notice that the name in Italian does not capitalise the "è." So I'll move it again, to Daisy—Democracy is Freedom, even though that seems wrong in English. Ventifax 21:54, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

The name refers to the flower Oxeye daisy, see also Marguerite. I think they wanted to say something like "The Daisy Party" with the motto Democrazia è Libertà on the top of the logo, but commonly the organization is just called La Margherita by Italians. The article must be moved to "Democracy is Freedom-The Marguerite" or, more briefly, "The Marguerite", which in fact is the denomination used by the Italian Wiki. —Coat of Arms (talk) 23:31, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

The party website translates it as "daisy" [1] so I think the current denomination is good. --Angelo 00:26, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

By the way, both Washington Post [2] and Reuters [3] use the denomination "Daisy". --Angelo 00:32, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Then the article must be moved to "Democracy is Freedom-The Daisy", the official denomination includes Democrazia è Libertà at the beginning and not at the end. —Coat of Arms (talk) 21:36, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

It is better known (at least in Italy) just as "La Margherita". I think "The Daisy" is much better. --Angelo 21:43, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Ok, you can move it. =) —Coat of Arms (talk) 23:55, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

I'd second the thought that although the full name may include "Democracy is Freedom", that doesn't mean that the Wiki article should use that name. Should we rename the Italy article to "Italian Republic"? Of course not. I'd suggest that by analogy with The Olive Tree (political coalition) this article be renamed either The Daisy or Daisy (political coalition). FlagSteward (talk) 17:43, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

The problem is that DL was not a political coalition but a party. In any case the current title seems to be the best one for this page. --Checco (talk) 18:44, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Checco. —Nightstallion 19:02, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Merger

Page needs a mention of the proposed merger with DS and other parties to form a new 'Democratic Party'. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 195.112.19.214 (talk) 11:47, 23 February 2007 (UTC).

Work on it! --Checco (talk) 18:45, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Proposed move

I see a few problems with the current title of this article:

• The most common name is The Daisy, not "Democracy is Freedom – The Daisy" (see WP:TITLE)
• Even in Italy, everyone calls it La Margherita, and "Democrazia è Liberta" is seldom used, except in the abbreviation DL.
• "Democracy is Freedom" is wrongly capitalized (see WP:MOSTM)

So if there are no objections I will move this article to The Daisy, which currently redirects here. Mushroom (Talk) 22:09, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

I strongly oppose the move as the current title was the official name of the party and I see no reason for changing the title, let alone maybe WP:MOSTM, not a big deal anyway. I would leave the title as it is. --Checco (talk) 22:07, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Article move

Why was this article moved to "Is" from "is"? I see no real reason... —Nightstallion 13:05, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

It is worth saying that the move was not discussed in talk page and was very controversial: è (in English is) was not capitalized in the original name of the party (that is why the acronym was DL). We discussed that before and there was no consensus on the move. I contacted the author of the move for explanations but he did not manage to explain much. I confirm here my strong opposition to the move. --Checco (talk) 13:15, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Resume discussion on the title

All italian parties are named with the short name, also when they aren't absolutely the the most names. In this case the most common name is "La Margherita" and I have noticed that in the past other users have proposed to move this page. For a reason of consistency this page has to be moved to The Daisy. --Maremmano (talk) 20:27, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Strongly oppose - there's no need to change a long-established title of an article about an inactive political party - besides, the article already says very clearly that the party's common abbreviated name was The Daisy (La Margherita).--Autospark (talk) 23:43, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

I don't understand this strong opposition, the short names were also used (or imposed) also when they were unknown. For a reason of consistency, or we use the official names or we use the short names for all parties. In fact the most common name of this party was only La Margherita--Maremmano (talk) 22:01, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

Strongly oppose per Autospark. I would als add that the party was know both as Margherita and DL. --Checco (talk) 14:24, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

If the reason is the acronym DL the title should be Democracy is Liberty - The Daisy such as Autonomy Liberty Democracy (named with this title for the acronym ALD). Or is it more important to be against me on all my proposals?--Maremmano (talk) 13:00, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

'Democracy is Freedom' conveys the meaning behind the original Italian title of the party better in the English language.--Autospark (talk) 23:20, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

I don't understand you: you always want to use the short names, also when they are inopportune. But if I propose to use a short name you disagree. Besides I don't understand because in this case we use the word "Freedom" and in other cases (for example the ALPE) we use the word "Liberty". In both the acronyms there is the "L". Can you explain me the reason?--Maremmano (talk) 22:41, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

@Checco and Autospark: your motivations are absolutely inconsistent. For all parties we have used (or you have imposed) the short name but not for this party. Why? For the acronym? In this case the name has to be Democracy is Liberty - The Daisy! There is also Future and Freedom. following the acronyms this page should be named Future and Liberty for Italy (FLI)! I remember you that you have imposed the word "Liberty" for the pages ALPE and ALD! I don't want to be teased! The discussion is not ended and if you don't answer me I'll act without your consensus.--Maremmano (talk) 20:39, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

Please moderate your behaviour. You are acting belligerently and acting against the basic principles of Wiki by making major changes when there is no consensus. I have already mentioned my strong objection to a move for this article.--Autospark (talk) 23:28, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

I am angry because you continue to not answer my questions!! You have to give me some reasons, and these reasons have to be consistent!--Maremmano (talk) 08:09, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

I don't understand why only this party has to be named with the long title, when Checco has used the short name for all the other parties. If the reason is the acronym, for consistency this page should be named Democracy is Liberty - The Daisy. I don't require much, but at least I want consistent motivations! I repeat again that you prevented me to move "Autonomy Liberty Democracy" to "Autonomy Freedom Democracy" for the only reason of the acronym. Why this inconsistency? Can I have an answer?--Maremmano (talk) 22:57, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

You should accept that other users might have different opinion from yours. Please refrain from moving this page without consenus, as you have often done with many other pages. Wikipedia, which is a co-operative effort, has its rules, and the first should be respect for others' opinions. --Checco (talk) 07:42, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

Checco, Autospark, you are not correct with me! I have asked some questions and you have not answered me! Do you believe to be cunning? I am offended from your behavior! For you it is important only the opposition, not the valid motivations!--Maremmano (talk) 21:25, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

As in other cases, the name you are challenging is a much established one, upheld over the years by many users, including authoritative administrators as Nightstallion (who settled it in January 2011). Of course, you can propose a different name and, in this case, your arguments are quite legitimate and interesting, but I do think that the current title is best. I also understand your disappointment with Autospark and I, but you should appreciate that I never refrain from discussion: my opinions can look absurd to you, but my good faith and my willingness to discuss are undisputable. --Checco (talk) 10:01, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

I am willing to discuss alternative names, but I do not which to enter into interpersonal arguments - I'm here to write and edit and discuss, not get involves with personal arguments. Essentially, my final say is that the name is perfectly good as an English translation to a native English speaker, is about as good a translation is possible, certainly better than the early article titles - 'Freedom' conveys the meaning of the organisation name better than 'Liberty' (yes, I realise it's a grey area, but all translations are at times, there's a level of interpretation always involved), and quite importantly, I see no urgent rush to rename an article about a political party that has not existed in its own right for nearly 7 years now, with a name that is established among Wiki articles (with lots of links, etc). I don't have anything more to add.--Autospark (talk) 11:16, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

I think we should go by the most common form in reliable, English-language literature. This is, with all due respect, the more relevant criterion than the opinion of Wikipedia editors, however experienced, knowledgeable and meritorious they may be. So the decisive argument should be: How is the party usually named in relevant English-language literature?

A quick google books research produces 28 hits for "Democracy is Freedom" +party +italy -wikipedia; against 7 hits for "Democracy is Liberty" +party +italy -wikipedia. There are more than 100 hits for "the Daisy" +party +italy -wikipedia, but not all of them seem relevant, so this may not really be a reliable indicator to determine the dissemination of this variant. It would take some more time to analyse all these its, how many of them are in fact scholarly works by reputable academics, how many of them really deal with Italian parties in detail, how many of them even mean this party and not any other meaning of "the Daisy" (even if you add +party +italy, you yield a lot of unrelated results). --RJFF (talk) 10:03, 5 July 2014 (UTC)

"Democracy is Freedom – The Daisy" should be a perfect name but it is inconsistent with the other names of italian political parties that they have imposed. In Italy, certainly, the most common name is La Margherita (without Democrazia è Libertà). Moreover, Checco and Autospark, you are continuing to not answer my questions (but now I'm resigned)--Maremmano (talk) 08:52, 6 July 2014 (UTC)