Talk:Dimitar Blagoev

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The substitution of the term Bulgarian in this article with the term Ethnic Macedonian is POV[edit]

Throughout the Middle Ages and until the early 20th century, there was no clear formulation or expression of a distinct Macedonian ethnicity. The Slavic speaking majority in the Region of Macedonia had been referred to (both, by themselves and outsiders) as Bulgarians, and that is how they were predominantly seen since 10th,[1][2][3] up until the early 20th century.[4] It is generally acknowledged that the ethnic Macedonian identity emerged in the late 19th century or even later.[5][6][7][8][9][10] However, the existence of a discernible Macedonian national consciousness prior to the 1940s is disputed.[11][12][13][14][15] Anti-Serban and pro-Bulgarian feelings among the local population at this period prevailed.[16][17] According to some researchers, by the end of the war a tangible Macedonian national consciousness did not exist and bulgarophile sentiments still dominated in the area, but others consider that it hardly existed.[18] After 1944 Communist Bulgaria and Communist Yugoslavia began a policy of making Macedonia into the connecting link for the establishment of new Balkan Federative Republic and stimulating here a development of distinct Slav Macedonian consciousness.[19] With the proclamation of the Socialist Republic of Macedonia as part of the Yugoslav federation, the new authorities also started measures that would overcome the pro-Bulgarian feeling among parts of its population.[20] In 1969 also the first History of the Macedonian nation was published. The past was systematycally falsified to conceal the truth, that most of the well-known Macedonians had felt themselves to be Bulgarians and generations of students were tought the pseudo-history of the Macedonian nation.[21]

Please, read also the added Academic unbiased secondary sources concerning Blagoev and describing him as Bulgarian as follows: The formation of labour movements, 1870-1914: an international perspective, The Formation of Labour Movements, 1870-1914: An International Perspective, Jürgen Rojahn, ISBN 90-04-09276-5, BRILL, 1990, p. 403.; Religion and power in Europe: conflict and convergence, Joaquim Carvalho, Edizioni Plus, 2007, ISBN 88-8492-464-2, p. 263.; An introduction to post-communist Bulgaria: political, economic, and social transformations, Emil Giatzidis, Manchester University Press, 2002, ISBN 0-7190-6095-8, p. 18. Thank you. Jingiby (talk) 08:30, 5 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

References and notes[edit]

  1. ^ Who are the Macedonians? Hugh Poulton, C. Hurst & Co. Publishers, 2000, ISBN 1850655340, p. 19-20.
  2. ^ Средновековни градови и тврдини во Македонија, Иван Микулчиќ, Македонска академија на науките и уметностите — Скопје, 1996, стр. 72.
  3. ^ Formation of the Bulgarian nation: its development in the Middle Ages (9th-14th c.) Academician Dimitŭr Simeonov Angelov, Summary, Sofia-Press, 1978, pp. 413-415.
  4. ^ Center for Documentation and Information on Minorities in Europe, Southeast Europe (CEDIME-SE) - "Macedonians of Bulgaria", p. 14.
  5. ^ Krste Misirkov, On the Macedonian Matters (Za Makedonckite Raboti), Sofia, 1903: "And, anyway, what sort of new Macedonian nation can this be when we and our fathers and grandfathers and great-grandfathers have always been called Bulgarians?"
  6. ^ Sperling, James; Kay, Sean; Papacosma, S. Victor (2003). Limiting institutions?: the challenge of Eurasian security governance. Manchester, UK: Manchester University Press. p. 57. ISBN 978-0-7190-6605-4. Macedonian nationalism Is a new phenomenon. In the early twentieth century, there was no separate Slavic Macedonian identity
  7. ^ Titchener, Frances B.; Moorton, Richard F. (1999). The eye expanded: life and the arts in Greco-Roman antiquity. Berkeley: University of California Press. p. 259. ISBN 978-0-520-21029-5. On the other hand, the Macedonians are a newly emergent people in search of a past to help legitimize their precarious present as they attempt to establish their singular identity in a Slavic world dominated historically by Serbs and Bulgarians. ... The twentieth-century development of a Macedonian ethnicity, and its recent evolution into independent statehood following the collapse of the Yugoslav state in 1991, has followed a rocky road. In order to survive the vicissitudes of Balkan history and politics, the Macedonians, who have had no history, need one.
  8. ^ Kaufman, Stuart J. (2001). Modern hatreds: the symbolic politics of ethnic war. New York: Cornell University Press. p. 193. ISBN 0-8014-8736-6. The key fact about Macedonian nationalism is that it is new: in the early twentieth century, Macedonian villagers defined their identity religiously—they were either "Bulgarian," "Serbian," or "Greek" depending on the affiliation of the village priest. ... According to the new Macedonian mythology, modern Macedonians are the direct descendants of Alexander the Great's subjects. They trace their cultural identity to the ninth-century Saints Cyril and Methodius, who converted the Slavs to Christianity and invented the first Slavic alphabet, and whose disciples maintained a centre of Christian learning in western Macedonia. A more modern national hero is Gotse Delchev, leader of the turn-of-the-century Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization (IMRO), which was actually a largely pro-Bulgarian organization but is claimed as the founding Macedonian national movement.
  9. ^ Rae, Heather (2002). State identities and the homogenisation of peoples. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. p. 278. ISBN 0-521-79708-X. Despite the recent development of Macedonian identity, as Loring Danforth notes, it is no more or less artificial than any other identity. It merely has a more recent ethnogenesis - one that can therefore more easily be traced through the recent historical record.
  10. ^ Zielonka, Jan; Pravda, Alex (2001). Democratic consolidation in Eastern Europe. Oxford: Oxford University Press. p. 422. ISBN 978-0-19-924409-6. Unlike the Slovene and Croatian identities, which existed independently for a long period before the emergence of SFRY Macedonian identity and language were themselves a product federal Yugoslavia, and took shape only after 1944. Again unlike Slovenia and Croatia, the very existence of a separate Macedonian identity was questioned—albeit to a different degree—by both the governments and the public of all the neighboring nations (Greece being the most intransigent)
  11. ^ Loring M. Danforth, The Macedonian Conflict: Ethnic Nationalism in a Transnational World, 1995, Princeton University Press, p.65, ISBN 0691043566
  12. ^ Stephen Palmer, Robert King, Yugoslav Communism and the Macedonian question,Hamden, Connecticut Archon Books, 1971, p.p.199-200
  13. ^ The Macedonian Question: Britain and the Southern Balkans 1939-1949, Dimitris Livanios, edition: Oxford University Press, US, 2008, ISBN 0199237689, p. 65.
  14. ^ The struggle for Greece, 1941-1949, Christopher Montague Woodhouse, C. Hurst & Co. Publishers, 2002, ISBN 1850654921, p. 67.
  15. ^ Who are the Macedonians? Hugh Poulton,Hurst & Co. Publishers, 1995, ISBN 1850652384, 9781850652380, p. 101.
  16. ^ The struggle for Greece, 1941-1949, Christopher Montague Woodhouse, C. Hurst & Co. Publishers, 2002, ISBN 1850654921, p. 67.
  17. ^ Who are the Macedonians? Hugh Poulton,Hurst & Co. Publishers, 1995, ISBN 1850652384, 9781850652380, p. 101.
  18. ^ The Macedonian conflict: ethnic nationalism in a transnational world, Loring M. Danforth, Princeton University Press, 1997, ISBN 0691043566, pp. 65-66.
  19. ^ Europe since 1945. Encyclopedia by Bernard Anthony Cook. ISBN 0815340583, pg. 808.[1]
  20. ^ Djokić, Dejan (2003). Yugoslavism: Histories of a Failed Idea, 1918-1992. C. Hurst & Co. Publishers. pp. 122 .
  21. ^ Yugoslavia: a concise history, Leslie Benson, Palgrave Macmillan, 2001, ISBN 0333792416, p. 89.

Jingiby's vandalism and spam[edit]

Jingiby, you should really stop removing references from articles when they don't suit your POV. You should also stop spamming talk pages with the same "Macedonians are the product of a conspiracy" garbage. The sources I provided are in no way biased: they are stenographic records from the Bulgarian parliament where the individual in question denies being an ethnic Bulgarian, criticizes Bulgaria's foreign policy toward neighboring Slavic populations and emphatically declares that he is "not a Bulgarian, but a Macedonian". Blagoev was indeed a Bulgarian citizen, and an active one at that; however, he did clearly define his ethnicity. --101.112.160.47 (talk) 09:21, 5 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You nead a lot of reliable Academic secondary unbiased sources to prove your thesis. Provide them, please. Jingiby (talk) 09:25, 5 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Why "a lot"? Why specifically "academic"? And where is the bias? There isn't any on my part because this isn't my thesis at all, it's Dimitar Blagoev's (the subject himself) ethnic self-identification preserved in black and white in official stenographic records. And don't play the Balkan card -- this has been documented in Bulgaria as well. --101.112.160.47 (talk) 09:39, 5 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Nor reliable source was provided, neither discussion was held. As you can check here: Contested Ethnic Identity: The Case of Macedonian Immigrants in Toronto, 1900-1996, Chris Kostov , Издател Peter Lang, 2010, ISBN 3034301960, p. 78. - he was ethnic Bulgarian. Jingiby (talk) 09:40, 5 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Please provide reliable source or I am going to remove your statement. The only provided from you source is Ethnic Macedonian: Орде Иваноски. „Искажување на Димитар Благоев за народността на Македонците пред Бугарскиот парламент во 1917“ (Современост, Скопје), Јануари 1967 - i.e. biased. The second source is Bulgarian: Библ. Николова В., Куманов М., Кратък исторически справочник, т. III, София 1983, but there is neither citted page, nor clear publisher, i.e. not reliable. Jingiby (talk) 10:07, 5 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protection against persistent IP-vandalism was required. Jingiby (talk) 17:53, 5 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

On Encyclopedia Britannica Dimitŭr Blagoev is Bulgarian educator.

According to Great Soviet Encyclopedia (1979) Blagoev was Bulgarian. Jingiby (talk) 19:53, 5 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note to the annon: Since you seem to know you're way around here, I gather you are familiar with the project and you have most probably been a contributor at some point of time in the past. You should be well aware that disruptive editing and talk page comments do no good. The very header of this thread shows you have no interest in engaging in any constructive editing or discussion. It is obvious that this is a content dispute and certainly not vandalism from the part of Jingiby. Hence, the header you've written serves no point beyond mere pecking at another user. Please stop, with both the inappropriate comments and the edit-war. Be advised that you are still subject to the 3RR rule and that the whole IP range you're currently abusing could be blocked as a consequence of your edits. Thank you.--Laveol T 10:14, 6 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

My two cents: I know nothing about the subject of this article, or the Bulgarian-Macedonian struggle in general, but as far as Wikipedia goes, ethnicity is determined by the subject's self-identification. If there is non-fringe dispute about it from other sources, that should go in the article as well, but the lead and infobox (if any) go by the subject's self-identification.Euchrid (talk) 03:20, 6 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The most specialized and comprehensive reliable source of information that I have just found is in this academic publication:Historical Dictionary of the Republic of Macedonia, Dimitar Bechev, Scarecrow Press, 2009, ISBN 0810855658, p. 28. Inside is the next interpretation of Blagoev's identification: Blagoev Dimitur (1871 - 1924), Bulgarian politician, party leader and early Balkan socialist... He also identified himself occasionally as Macedonian Slav. I propose such compromise text for the introduction of the article. Jingiby (talk) 05:12, 6 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

PP. As per his self-identification: in his memoires titled Кратки бележки из моя живот, published in 1925 in Sofia, only a year after his death he wrote: "I was born in the famous Macedonian village of Zagorichene, in Kostur area. It is a large, purely Bulgarian populated village .... Remarcable event in my life from that period was the arrival of the first Bulgarian teacher in the village ... He brought us together and asked us if we want to learn the Bulgarian alphabet. Our alacrity was boundless and we secretly began to training in the Bulgarian school." Jingiby (talk) 05:41, 6 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

What about to keep the intro and the added references and to add a new sentence: He also identified himself occasionally as Macedonian Slav + the new academic reference: Historical Dictionary of the Republic of Macedonia. I suggest also to keep the sentence informing us about the incident in the Parliament (the only attested case he identified himself as Macedonian Slav): In a speach to the Bulgarian Parliament in 1917, Blagoev promoted the ideas of Macedonism + both sources. Regards. Jingiby (talk) 09:30, 6 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

No, not "occasionally". As far as documentation is concerned, it seems this is the only record of his own expression. In my quotations, however, he plainly and unambiguously condemns Bulgaria's foreign policy at the time and emphatically declares himself a Macedonian, and to quote, "not a Bulgarian". He was an ethnic Macedonian, a Macedonist, and the two references I added validate that. I don't see Blagoev describing his own ethnicity in the quotation you've provided. --101.112.129.98 (talk) 13:49, 6 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The secondary academic source says: occasionally. The rest of secondary sources describe him only as Bulgarian in ethnic sense. We have also only one attested public case where he has identified as Macedonian Slav. Jingiby (talk) 13:55, 6 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly my point: a primary source! --101.112.129.98 (talk) 14:01, 6 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Prymary sources are not reliable. Check it, please. PP. There is anotrher academic source describing him as Bugarian:Painting Shakespeare Red: An East-European Appropriation, Aleksandŭr Shurbanov, Boika Sokolova, University of Delaware Press, 2001, ISBN 0874137268, p. 85. Jingiby (talk) 14:03, 6 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Actually read the goddamn policy. It states, "unless restricted by another policy, primary sources that have been reliably published may be used in Wikipedia, but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them. Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation."
We have the primary source quoted in a secondary source. We also have two other sources which specifically deal with his ethnicity. And for Pete's sake, stop it with the Google Books crap and actually read some books. Wanna see how many sources call Eliza Dushku "American"? --101.112.129.98 (talk) 14:16, 6 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
By the way, Jingiby, the policy also states, "do not analyze, synthesize, interpret, or evaluate material found in a primary source yourself". --101.112.129.98 (talk) 14:18, 6 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Stop the POV, please. Jingiby (talk) 14:23, 6 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

What POV? Stop throwing it around like a catchphrase. I was bold and tried to expand the article by adding a well documented and significant fact. You, on the other hand, vandalized the article by removing sourced text and going on a bigoted rant re your chauvinistic POV. --101.112.129.98 (talk) 14:31, 6 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Pff, I lost my whole comment to an edit-conflict. I was about to propose that we just add a sentence about this speech, as the man seemed to have self-identified as Bulgarian for the biggest part of his life, both prior and after this statement. As a Communist, his views tended to conflict and change a lot depending on the International's policies of the time. Oh, and seeing your comment, I will once again ask you to refrain from describing other people's edits as vandalism. Comment on content not on contributors and try to be more friendly. I gather that your previous experience here might have been frustrating, but that is certainly no reason to behave like this.--Laveol T 14:40, 6 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia is not a forum. Thank you! Jingiby (talk) 14:38, 6 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The sentence was added from me yesterday and never was deleted. It reads as follows: In a speach to the Bulgarian Parliament in 1917, Blagoev promoted the ideas of Macedonism.[8][9] Jingiby (talk) 15:02, 6 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I can only repeat what I just posted on the noticeboard: That's intentionally misleading. We now know very well that he considered himself a Macedonian. He declared it publicly and, historically speaking, that's very significant. Why politicize his statement and beat around the bush? --101.112.129.98 (talk) 15:18, 6 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think your POV in this case is intentionally misleading. Jingiby (talk) 15:23, 6 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Personal views, both yours and mine, are not relevant. --101.112.129.98 (talk) 15:28, 6 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

And is this personal view of Blagoev relevant: "I am Bulgarian ... I was born of Orthodox Bulgarians in Macedonia, in the village of Zagorichane, Kastoria district. " Благоев, Дмитър. Съчинения. т. 20, стр. 479. Jingiby (talk) 15:44, 6 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Excellent. You found something which is actually relevant. Do you mind sharing the link? --101.112.129.98 (talk) 15:51, 6 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm, so we just need to tweak the sentence about the speech and we can safely wrap it up. Something like: "In a speech before the Bulgarian National Assembly in 1917, Blagoev described himself as what he described as "Macedonian Slav", a view he later reiterated in his memoires." And that's it. --Laveol T 16:04, 6 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

On the source from which is the cittation above. It is the book Historical destiny of the Macedonian Bulgarians. Evidence for the Bulgarian Revival in Macedonia. Dimitar Raykov, (Macedonian Scientific Institute, Sofia, 1997) and especially the chapter dedicated on Blagoev titled: Bulgarian, born in Macedonia. Into the text are pointed a lot of primary sources where Blagoev described as himself and his parents as well as the population of his native town and of the whole of the Macedonian region as Bulgarian. And now on the cittation's origin. In the spring of 1881, in connection with his admission to the maturity exam in the then Second St. Petersburg High School, the young student Dimitar Blagoev wrote: "I am Bulgarian ... I was born of Orthodox Bulgarians in Macedonia, in the village Zagorichane, Kastoria district." Jingiby (talk) 05:03, 7 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

PP. Incidentally, the most prominent specialist on the political views of Blagoev is the former Bulgarian president Georgi Parvanov. He is a historian and PhD. Parvanov's PhD thesis is 248 pages and its topic is Dimitar Blagoev and the Bulgarian National Question (1879-1917). Below is a link to the website of the Presidency of the Republic of Bulgaria. It is to a speach of the President Georgi Parvanov in Blagoevgrad with a subject "The ideas of Dimitar Blagoev and the European prospects of the Balkan cooperation." The article reflects also the views of Blagoev on the Bulgarian national question and referres to primary sources and cittation from Blagoev revealing his Bulgarian national identity. Check here, please. Jingiby (talk) 05:52, 7 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I reopen my proposal in accordance with the specialized academic source Historical Dictionary of the Republic of Macedonia, Dimitar Bechev, Scarecrow Press, 2009, ISBN 0810855658,containing biographical article on Blagoev and namely: To add to the preface the sentence - He also identified himself occasionally as Macedonian Slav. As per its book description: it surveys often overlooked topics, such as the social transformations underwent in the course of the 20th century and during the decades of socialism, as well as the recent debates about historical memory and roots of the Slav Macedonian nation. Jingiby (talk) 11:33, 8 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think too much weight is given to a probably polemical outburst and his statement about being Macedonian might not be entirely serious. In his autobiography (written after the First World War) he stated that he was: "From the famous village of Zagorichane, Kostur (today Kastoria).It is a large, entirely Bulgarian village". See a source here. Kostja (talk) 11:39, 8 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, and in the spring of 1881 the student Blagoev wrote: "I am Bulgarian ... I was born of Orthodox Bulgarians in Macedonia, in the village Zagorichane, Kastoria district." Jingiby (talk) 13:08, 8 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The first sentence of the article should just say "was a political leader, the founder..." without Bulgarian or Macedonian. Then, at the end of the intro, we could write "Blagoev's ethnicity is subject to dispute because he self-identified as both Bulgarian and Macedonian at various times in his life." Then, in the body of the page: "In a speech before the Bulgarian National Assembly in 1917, Blagoev called himself a "Macedonian Slav", a view he later reiterated in his memoires." That ought to solve this. --Local hero talk 21:45, 8 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Absurd. Accordind to the Historycal dictionary of the Republic of Macedonia: Blagoev Dimitur (1871 - 1924), was Bulgarian politician, party leader and early Balkan socialist... He also identified himself occasionally as Macedonian Slav. According to the Great Soviet Encyclopedia: Blagoev, Dimitrur; born June 14, 1856, in the village of Zagorichane; died May 7, 1924, in Sofia. First Marxist propagandist in Bulgaria. Founder and leader of the Bulgarian Workers’ Social Democratic Party (of Narrow Socialists, or Tesniaki). Born into the family of a poor peasant. According to Encyclopaedya Britannica Dimitur Blagoev is Bulgarian educator. (UTC) Jingiby (talk) 09:38, 9 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It, does sound quite odd, actually. Because of one statement which he later reiterated, we should disregard everything else he has said or done? He was obviously a Bulgarian and also obviously a Communist. And he made this statement quite according to the party line at the time. The International had just called for the establishment of the Thracian, Dobrujan, and Macedonian nations. Sorry, if someone finds this offensive, but this is what it was. As a devoted Communist, Blagoev would have most probably called himself a Thracian, had he been born in Plovdiv, for example. --Laveol T 12:21, 9 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
No, I don't want to disregard anything and let's not speculate on the possibility that communists forced him to switch his ethnic affiliation. How about something like this: "Blagoev is often regarded as a Bulgarian, though he had also identified as a Macedonian during his life." --Local hero talk 05:21, 10 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
@Kostja, you've added that "in his later autobiography he referred to himself as Bulgarian." In the reference, I only see him describing the village of Zagoričani as Bulgarian and saying nothing about himself. Unless I missed something. --Local hero talk 05:29, 10 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Did you ever read his autobiography Hero? Probably he was born in a place populated exclusively and only by Bulgarians but through political psycho-mutation he became later the only non-Bulgarian from the village. Jingiby (talk) 07:06, 10 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

In Short Notes on My Life Dimiter Blagoev gives information about his native village and school

April 13th, 1923

The date of my birth is not exactly known because my birth certificate shows the year 1859, but it was issued later in order to show that I was younger than I looked. This was requested by the Russian school authorities in order to admit me to the 4th form of the Russian high school. But I remember that when I went to Constantinople as a 14-15 years old boy, there was a lot of talk about the Franco-Prussian War. From this it is to be concluded that the date of my birth should be 1855 or 1856.

I was born in the well-known Macedonian village of Zagorichane, Kostour district. It is a large, pure Bulgarian village, situated at the foothills of the southern spurs of the large mountain massif of Vich and on the brink of a large valley, stretchnig to the south of the village. ……..

A remarkable event in my life at that time was the arrival of the first Bulgarian teacher in the village. He was Georgi Konstantinov from Solun, or, as we called him, Dinkata. He was engaged as teacher in the Greek school, the only one which existed at the time. But he was above all an agitator, an apostle and that is why the very first days he assembled us and asked us whether we wanted to learn the Bulgarian alphabet. There was no end to our happiness and the lessons in Bulgarian in the school began in secret. I remember very well our school room with a row of benches, strewn with sand on which we used to write. But our teacher Dinkata was not satisfied with teaching only the children of our village and he made the rounds of the villages as an agitator of the national idea.

In a neighbouring village he was beaten almost to death and he was brought back to our village wrapped in raw hides. But he persisted. Typical of the energy of this Bulgarian nationalist revolutionary was his act in 1870. After the Firman on the independence of the Bulgarian church was issued that same year, he went somewhere - whether to Constantinople or somewhere else, I don't know, but whatever he did, one day he appeared in the village with a copy of the Firman which he later read in the neighbouring villages. I wrote more about this teacher, a Bulgarian revolutionary in the newspaper Makedonski glas in 1885 in a special article headed 'Dinkata, the Teacher'.

I personally owe a great deal to him. He taught me to read and write very quickly. After one year of studies my friends and I used to take turns reading the Slav psalter in church. And, immitating his handwriting to this day, I write in a small handwirting, because at that time my ideal was to learn to write like my teacher. But he also gave me something more: he awakened an interest in knowledge in me...

Dimiter Blagoev, Works, vol. 19, Sofia, 1963, pp. 353-6; the original is in Bulgarian. Jingiby (talk) 07:16, 10 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for providing that. It was interesting but he still never self-identifies as Bulgarian in it. --Local hero talk 15:25, 10 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Are you kidding. Such people never really identified themselves as Ethnic Macedonians. It will bring even the Macedonian communist Dimitar Vlahov in 1948 on a session of the Politburo, when speaking of the existence of the Macedonian nation, to say that in 1931-32, when this idea was officially initiated by Bulgarian communists (including himself) was a political mistake. Such people, comming from the Bulgarian Communist Party, according to the Macedonian Accademician Katradziev, never get rid of their bulgarophile sentiments, and felt themselves practically to be Bulgarians until the end of their life. Another, disappointed with the policy of the new Yugoslav Macedonian authorities, as Pavel Shatev, together with Panko Brashnarov, complained in letter to Georgi Dimitrov and to ask for help in maintaining the Bulgarian character of Macedonia. As a result, they were jailed for their alleged pro-Bulgarian and anti-Yugoslav sympathies and later pushed off.Jingiby (talk) 16:20, 10 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

If you (or Kostja, since I first directed it at him) could please address my concern that the statement "in his later autobiography he referred to himself as Bulgarian." is false as it stands because nowhere in it does he identify himself as Bulgarian. Please spare me the detracting information about what the Yugoslavs did to Bulgarophiles. --Local hero talk 17:24, 10 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

However here is not a forum. You do not have any reliable source he was Ethnic Macedonian. Any! Jingiby (talk) 17:41, 10 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Right now, Jingiby, I'm trying to resolve the part where it states that "in his later autobiography he referred to himself as Bulgarian." The provided source does not back that up, so I'm going to remove it. --Local hero talk 18:02, 10 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The statement "an entirely Bulgarian village" should be enough. Or the subsequent information in to the autobiography. Kostja (talk) 18:11, 10 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It's not enough to say that Blagoev himself identified as a Bulgarian in later memoirs. He is describing his village, NOT himself, as Bulgarian. The wording of the sentence can be changed to reflect that he says Zagoričane was Bulgarian, but he says nothing of his specific ethnic affiliation. --Local hero talk 18:14, 10 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
And the source Jingiby just added also fails to prove the current statement. --Local hero talk 18:21, 10 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm, so to be entirely precise and explicit, we should write the following: "In his memoirs, Blagoev mentions he was born in a village inhabited purely by Bulgarians. It is not known, though, if by this he meant he, too, was one of them." I can't see how this could work out, but if you insist...--Laveol T 18:29, 10 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

To be entirely precise and explicit: In his memoirs, Blagoev mentions he was born in a village inhabited purely by Bulgarians and as a result he received his national idea by Bulgarian agiatators and also was educated in nationalist spirit. It is not known, though, if by this he meant he was ethnic Bulgarian. Jingiby (talk) 18:42, 10 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Take a look at my edit to the page. I used your exact wording, Jingiby. --Local hero talk 18:58, 10 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The last part of the sentence was your POV and my joke. Blagoev simly said he was born in a village inhabited purely by Bulgarians and as a result he received his national idea by Bulgarian agiatators and also was educated in nationalist spirit.Jingiby (talk) 19:35, 10 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

However, I think we can add a sentence in the lead- In the Republic of Macedonia he is considered Ethnic Macedonian. Jingiby (talk) 19:44, 10 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Great, I'm okay with that section now. I think that settles that part. For the lead, I think adding something like this to the end would be a good idea: "Blagoev is often regarded as a Bulgarian, though he had also identified as a Macedonian during his life." --Local hero talk 20:00, 10 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Probably: Blagoev is often regarded as a Bulgarian, though he also identified himself occasionally as a Macedonian Slav. Jingiby (talk) 20:04, 10 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I can accept that. I'll make the change. --Local hero talk 20:29, 10 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Blagoev was only Bulgarian political leader. Jingiby (talk) 20:41, 10 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Please, stop the game. In the spring of 1881, in connection with his admission to the maturity exam in the then Second St. Petersburg High School, the young student Dimitar Blagoev wrote: "I am Bulgarian ... I was born of Orthodox Bulgarians in Macedonia, in the village Zagorichane, Kastoria district." On the other hand the secondary source says: occasionally, but not once or twice. Jingiby (talk) 14:53, 11 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

All right, I don't think that was brought up above. --Local hero talk 14:57, 11 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I tweaked the lead a bit, as it previously sounded as if he was regarded as one thing, but self-identified as another. While it was evidently quite the opposite for all but one year of his life. --Laveol T 20:00, 12 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

BPOV[edit]

Jingiby, in the text of the article it states how he regarded himself as a Bulgarian and sometimes as a Macedonian clearly showing to us that the category "Macedonian Bulgarian" is not suitable for him, im considering adding the POV tag in the article but i want to give you a chance before doing so. Gurther (talk) 10:44, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Gurther, we were talking about such individuals with variable identities. In this case, it concerns a person for whom there is data that only once in his life he defined himself as a Macedonian. I think that categories that define him by both his nationalities are perfectly acceptable. It's better than removing them. It seems to me that the truth is a better option than covering it up. Jingiby (talk) 11:26, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Jingiby, ive checked the sources of the so called "Bulgarian declarations" and they are unreliable
  • Source 1 - its from pro.Macedonia, which is an instant POV issue
  • Source 2 - Doesn't mention the Bulgarian declarations by Blagoev anywhere, only cited some of his materials for sources, this means its unreliable
  • Source 3 - Doesn't mention the Bulgarian declarations by Blagoev anywhere, it only mentions how he supported the Bulgarian Exarchate first then he turned on it
  • Source 4 - Yet again no mentions, it only states how he was Russian-educated and the founder of Bulgarian communist, but never mentions any declarations
please show reliable english academic sources which support your claim, otherwise ill be adding a tag for unreliability Gurther (talk) 07:32, 11 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Jingiby, the fact that only Kostov (from what i could find) supports your views, means there is a high chance that he didn't identify as a Bulgarian his entire life, which is why my more NPOV version for the introduction is a better idea and more safer to make. Gurther (talk) 08:45, 11 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Jingiby, i just wanna point out your hypocrisy, you reverted my recent reliable source by claiming its old and outdated academic source, yet oen of the sources about his identity were from 1968, which is extremely old and filled with BPOV. i advise properly weighing in sources and not removing those who dont fit your POV narrative. I also recommend co-operating with editors when it comes to disputes like this, since it seems to me that you are actively avoding discussion Gurther (talk) 10:19, 11 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Gurther, it's good to judge sources. When there are academic sources it is right to stick to them. Especially when the information in them overlaps. It doesn't have to be changed based on an unreliable source like you did. The source was not academic, and its author was not a specialist, but a man of letters. The publishing house was for student literature. Jingiby (talk) 10:32, 11 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Jingiby, oh yea another hypocrisy you use sources from non-qualified historians in the Macedonian historiography, i find it odd how a lot of the times just to support your views you often contradict yourself. Gurther (talk) 16:32, 11 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Dimitar_Blagoev&oldid=1206326250"