Talk:Doctor Who/Archive 25

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Regenerations

As addressed and acknowledge in The Time of the Doctor, I have added in David Tennant as he was the 10th AND 11th incarnations of the Doctor. I think this list needs to be updated to include the War Doctor as he was officially acknowledged in this episode, the mini webisode The Night of the Doctor and the 50th anniversary special as the 8th Doctor making moving McGann and Eccleston to the 9th and 10th Doctors respectively. David Tennant becomes the 11th and 12th Doctors with Matt Smith as the 13th Doctor. Also can anyone tell me if Peter Capaldi becomes the 14th Doctor (continuing from Matt Smith) or the 1st Doctor as his regeneration cycle was reset?Danny Newman 22:23, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

You are taking an in-universe view of the article, which is not how Wikipedia articles are written. As a television production, David Tennant was the 10th lead actor to play the Doctor and only needs to be listed once (his regenerating within the series is irrelevant), Matt Smith is the 11th lead actor to play the Doctor, and David Capaldi is the 12th lead actor to play the Doctor. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 22:23, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

Also the lines as delivered were pointing out the flaws in being too literal about the numbers rather than giving a definitive statement about the situation. That is why "in universe" and WP:POV phrasing always causes problems. MarnetteD | Talk 22:31, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

So John Hurt's 9th Doctor doesn't count? If we were to take an in universe view then Peter Capaldi is the 1st Doctor as the Time Lords reset his regenerations. Danny Newman 00:48, 29 December 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dannynewman (talk • contribs)

John Hurt was never a series lead, so he is not in the list of series leads. And because Wikipedia does not use an in-universe view, we list Capaldi as the 12th lead actor to play the Doctor. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 00:52, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

Having done some research, the Starship Enterprise from Star Trek article seems to have been written from an "in universe" perspective naming several captain's of the Enterprise that were never series lead actors like William Shatner and Patrick Stewart.(Jeffrey Hunter, Tricia O'Neill, Ronnie Cox...)Danny Newman 20:52, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

Not comparable articles - if you can't see the fundamental differences, there are greater problems here. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 22:29, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

11 Doctors photo updating

I think the photos of the 11 Doctors should be updated to include Peter Capaldi's 12th Doctor... I have created one based on the existing photo that's already there to include a publicity photo of Peter.

File:12 faces of the Doctor.jpgDanny Newman 21:17, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

That's not a real photo of Capaldi in character though. It's just a photo of him wearing a scarf which has been photoshopped with Tom Baker's colours, then a sonic screwdriver and backdrop added. It's fan art. Rubiscous (talk) 21:37, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

Agreed with Rubiscous - that image is fan art (it's a digitally altered version of a promo image of him from the stage performance of "The Ladykillers"[1],[2]), not an image of Capaldi's actual character from the series. Also, the image file fails to resolve copyright issues and is likely to be deleted on those grounds. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 22:34, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

There is no suitable image of PC as the doctor yet. You won't see him in costume until much later in the year, only then will an suitable image be available. => Spudgfsh (Text Me!) 00:26, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

Exhibitions

In the section of the main article regarding exhibitions, it misses out the Doctor Who exhibition in Brighton that was centred around christopher Eccleston's Doctor. It was situated on Brighton Pier, and amongst other things, had a moving model of the Emperor Dalek (which would turn it's eye stalk and go "exterminate!" at the push of a button, model Slitheen wihich would make farting noises at the push of a button, computer terminals where you could play the game The Last Dalek, model Autons, gas mask zombies as well as information and models of daleks and the Doctor's various foes and and companions during the 9th Doctor's era. I believe it was situated from 2003-2005 (although research would be needed to confirm this) as my primary source is my own memory as I was taken there as a child before the exhibition moved to Cardiff. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.60.68.130 (talk) 00:05, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

The night of the Doctor

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p01lhhv4/Doctor_Who_Mini_Episode_The_Night_of_the_Doctor/, establishes that John Hurt is in fact the ninth doctor, and regenerates from Paul McGann. How do we deal with this?Slatersteven (talk) 16:23, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

We deal with this from a real world perspective and also wait for more information to be revealed (avoiding WP:CRYSTAL, WP:OR and WP:POV). DonQuixote (talk) 16:26, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

How is this WP:CRYSTAL, WP:OR and WP:POV, you can watch the minisode and see the regeneration? http://www.radiotimes.com/news/2013-11-14/doctor-who-the-night-of-the-doctor-mini-episode-reveals-major-primer-for-50th-anniversary-special

"The Doctor is then revived and, with only four minutes to live, drinks a potion offered to him by some mysterious witch-like women, the Sisterhood of Karn, which sees him regenerate into John Hurt, the War Doctor. He declares "Doctor no more", claiming the universe has more need for a warrior than a Doctor."Slatersteven (talk) 16:42, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

If you check the relevant articles, you'll see that it's mentioned. I was pointing out that we should avoid any crystal, or and pov in future edits by waiting for more information as they are revealed. DonQuixote (talk) 16:45, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

So we can see that Paul McGann regenerates into John Hurt, as that is shown in the episode.Slatersteven (talk) 16:53, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

Once again you are assuming facts not yet completely shown. Beginning with "The Christmas Invasion" the Doctors regenerative energy last beyond the moment of the body change. That episode states that it is a few hours but in "The Angels Take Manhattan" the Doctor mends River's broken wrist. Remember that all references to Ecclestone's Dr is that he is the ninth incarnation. So, Hurt could be a temp incarnation before the Drs body settles into its true Ninth form. Also Hurt's Dr could still be akin to The Valeyard. Thus, we need to wait and see how things play out in "The Day of the Doctor" before we make any final statements about these events. MarnetteD | Talk 17:07, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

We also know that the Valeyard was an incarnation after the twelfth, but we don't log that in there because that would be considered WP:INUNIVERSE, which is frowned upon. I suggest we treat the War Doctor similarly to the Valeyard. Alucard (Dr.) | Talk 18:38, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

If ultimately following the 50th anniversary episode he is referred to as the Doctor then thats what we will have to do. However its not exactly clear at the moment what he is therefore we cant crystal ball it especially as in Doctor Who it is never exactly what you think its going to be.Blethering Scot 20:12, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

I would argue that if unless the 50th anniversary calls out the new inconsistency in naming and addresses it, that it seems reasonable to refer to Hurt's version as the "War Doctor" (as credited), assuming that credit stays for the 50th. Thus Eccelston's version remains the "Ninth Doctor" (which we have to note is 10th canonically), etc; we don't have to change anything but a few leads to explain that. --MASEM (t) 21:02, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

I suspect that the writers added the line saying the War Doctor is "not deserving the title of Doctor" specifically so that they wouldn't have to re-number the 9th, 10th, and 11th. —Arctic Gnome (talk • contribs) 20:56, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

Again thats speculative. Teasers are just that teasers. Wait and see, what harm does that do, answer is nothing. Doing anything else is nothing but crystal balling and hypothetical.Blethering Scot 21:00, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

Moffat is apparently on record ("Moffat: "The Doctor numbering stays exactly the same"". Doctor Who TV.) as saying the numbering hasn't changed. Edgepedia (talk) 21:04, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

Could I suggest that folks weigh in over on Talk:War_Doctor where I am trying to keep things consistent. Thanks. Alucard (Dr.) | Talk 21:45, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

The Valeyard was never a proper incarnation like Hurt, rather he's described as a distillation of all the evil that the Doctor has done, a lot like the Dreamlord. Hurt's Doctor on the other hand regenerated from McGann's. Had he chosen to call himself the Doctor, he would have been #9, If the Valeyard would have chosen to call himself the Doctor he would have been called impostor. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.6.130.75 (talk) 15:34, 21 November 2013 (UTC) Irrespective of What Moffat says the numbering has changed

Well it seems the time Lords (in universe) consider him the Doctor (and say that capaldi is the 13th Doctor).Slatersteven (talk) 22:51, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

John Hurt now has a formal regeneration beginning from Mcgann as seen in the prequel, and a regeneration ending (as seen in "Day of the Doctor". He is called "Doctor" multiple times in the episode, and Galifry leadership recognizes there are 13 in orbit. In the final credits of the episode, the Doctors are show in order, including John Hurt. He meets more criteria than Mcgann did, so I do not understand what the debate is, except reluctance to accept a change because we're use to it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.84.241.128 (talk) 01:17, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

Nope, we are saved by Stephen Moffat - http://www.doctorwhotv.co.uk/moffat-the-doctor-numbering-stays-exactly-the-same-55354.htm states that the numbering does not change due to John Hurt. -mattbuck (Talk) 01:36, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

With respect Moffat is not infalible. If Moffat were to say really the Daleks have been misunderstood and are actually a bunch of good guys we would not change their listing. The fact s are the facts and it doesn;t matter what the author intended merely what he wrote. The story as written without doubt makes John Hurt the 9th and Capaldi the 13th. Capaldi has now also appeared in a canonical television programme and must be credited as 13th doctor from 2013 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.193.191.199 (talk) 02:37, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

I just now watched the episode again. The Time Lords say of the incoming Doctors, "All twelve of them." Then immediately, "All thirteen!" with a cut to a close-up of Capaldi. And Hurt does indeed refer to himself as, "the Doctor again". I agree about the supernumerary Tenth Doctor. Tenth and Tenth'? And how does Doctor-Donna fit in, as she is a semi-iteration of the Tenth Doctor, imbued with his total knowledge from contact with his well-traveled severed hand? I can see where there will be debate about this numbering stuff for a while. Although I have great respect for his imagination and ability to tie neat bows around complicated story arcs, Moffat has overlapping projects going on all the time. It wouldn't surprise me if some details slipped past him. Thank you, 24.47.173.120 (talk) 06:05, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

I didn't realize that my log-in had timed-out. It's me, Wordreader (talk) 06:11, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

Hurt does refer to himself as the The Doctor and accepted recognition as being The Doctors when called by that title by another Doctor. At one point in The Day of The Doctor it is pointed out there are 13 of them around the planet. Furthermore the official post show at one point said there are 13 Doctors total. Seems that with the rewrite of the storyline Hurt's War Doctor should included as a legitimate Doctor and The Doctor linage changed to reflect this.

1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.177.79.120 (talk) 07:22, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

Whatever way you look at it, unless the BBC (for financial reasons) is going to completely mess around with the story arc then Capaldi is to be the last doctor. It is perfectly fine for the namings of the doctors to remain eighth, ninth, tenth whatever those are the names given to the character by themselves. Thus the table should be updated to include "War Doctor" before Eccleston and now with his appearance Capalda added as twelth or (more controvertially) final. Much as parliament does not get to interpret its own laws (thats why we have judges) Moffat does not get to explain his own work. — Preceding unsigned comment added by James.robinson (talk • contribs) 16:15, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

Steven Moffat, after the showing of Day of the Doctor, has now revealed that David Tennant used up two regenerations, John Hurt is officially a numbered doctor, and Matt Smith is the 13th doctor.(http://www.radiotimes.com/news/2013-11-25/steven-moffat-is-rewriting-doctor-who-folklore-to-produce-a-christmas-cracker) Deathlibrarian (talk) 02:16, 27 November 2013 (UTC) and reported here . This is also been indicated in the Day of the Doctor page. As such, I will change the table to add Hurt to the official list of doctors. Deathlibrarian (talk) 02:31, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

Any edits are being removed as the article currently falls under "WP:CONSENSUS". Not too sure where this consensus comes from as most people agree that John Hurt should be added and that overall, the article needs to be adjusted to show a 1st Regen Cycle and then the new 2nd one. I attempted to do so, but my edits were undone within minutes. Mathewdyck (talk) 21:15, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

Numbers

I noticed that the Twelfth Doctor link (god Twelfth is an awful word) is now the Matt Smith incarnation. While this may now be technically correct, should we not go with the fact that for 95% of his time as doctor, he was #11? -mattbuck (Talk) 00:26, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

Oh, I see someone copypasted. Rollbacked. -mattbuck (Talk)

I think now that they rewrote their history and saved the Hurt Doctor from breaking the promise he should be counted as the 9th Doctor. And the other's need to be reordered. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.240.162.224 (talk) 23:58, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

Any edits are being removed as the article currently falls under "WP:CONSENSUS". Not too sure where this consensus comes from as most people agree that John Hurt should be added and that overall, the article needs to be adjusted to show a 1st Regen Cycle and then the new 2nd one. I attempted to do so, but my edits were undone within minutes. Mathewdyck (talk) 21:19, 12 January 2014 (UTC)