Talk:Donald R. Hickey

A fact from Donald R. Hickey appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 16 September 2021 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that American historian Donald R. Hickey was referred to as "the dean of 1812 scholarship" by The New Yorker?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2021/September. The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Donald R. Hickey.

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New article[edit]

New sources and added context welcomed. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 21:39, 12 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Primary sources[edit]

@Lopifalko: — Thanks for your interest. Primary sources are allowed when they are only used to source established facts, dates, etc.

WP:Primary : A primary source may be used on Wikipedia only to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the primary source but without further, specialized knowledge.

When it comes to matters of opinion e.g. greatness, reputation, etc, secondary sources are called for. There are no opinionated statements regarding these things in the article. If you feel there are any specific statements that require a secondary source please bring them to our attention. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 19:25, 13 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Gwillhickers: The _warning_ that "This article relies too much on references to primary sources" is different to arguing about the policy on / use of primary sources themselves. My argument is against the ratio of primary sources to independent sources. The article currently has sources from Wayne State College, University of Nebraska, a paper by the subject, and encyclopedia.com. 3/4 are primary and 1/4 is poor. WP:GNG says "A topic is presumed to be suitable for a stand-alone article or list when it has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject", hence the warning "This article relies too much on references to primary sources." -Lopifalko (talk) 06:44, 14 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Also, it goes against guidelines to use external links for citations in the text. This is why the templates, with external links, are listed in a separate section/Bibliography, and not used as actual in-line citations. Nearly all FA and GA history articles have the sources listed in their own section. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 19:40, 13 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I don't understand what you're talking about because a) MOS:REFERENCES says to use "References" and "General references", which I did; and b) I converted the article to use inline citation style, which is a very well established citation style on Wikipedia, though other citation styles are allowed. -Lopifalko (talk) 06:44, 14 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The issue was using external links as inline citations, not whether inline cites themselves are allowed. Once again, this article is using the same citation and source convention that many other FA history articles do. Listing sources in the middle of the text, as inline citations, makes the text difficult to navigate, esp as the article grows. Even in manuscript form, sources are always listed separately in books, journals and encyclopedia articles
Since the primary sources are only used to cite established facts, there really should be no issue there. Notability or standing is often established by other criteria. See Wikipedia:Notability (academics) (criteria 1, 2, 6) and WP:AUTHOR (criteria 1 and 4). As said, in the event where Hickey's reputation and such are covered secondary independent sources should be used. The tag is inappropriate, as the source is completely legitimate, regardless if other sources are similar. Given Hickey's extensive scholarship, writings and standing in the modern academic world, the article is intended more as an academic reference than a full blown personal biography. The article is in its early stages and given time will incorporate other sources, when needed. I'll make efforts to bring in other sources regardless. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 22:48, 14 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]