Talk:Downtown/Archives/2016

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Origins of Term

Despite the citation froma reputable source, the assertion that "uptown" and "downtown" derive from compass directions is not certain. North is not always "up" on a map, for one thing. The term "up- and down-town" may just as easily derive from their positions upstream and downstream of each other. The Hudson and East Rivers flow south; thus downtown--the south end of Manhattan--is literally lower than uptown, if only by a few feet. This would explain the term "Lower Manhattan." Consider the historic examples of Upper and Lower Canada, Upper and Lower Egypt, and a host of others. Another example of elevation determining "up" and "down" towns is Corpus Christi, Texas, where downtown is along the beach, while uptown is on an adjacent bluff. (I acknowledge that references in England to "up trains" and "down trains" do not follow this pattern). 165.91.64.173 (talk)RKH —Preceding undated comment was added at 01:58, 8 December 2008 (UTC).

Wow, a clear case of primary topic disambiguation. I'm doing so now. --SPUI (talk) 23:51, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I am mildly interested in moving this back to downtown. Since I have added some text to clarify its etymology and usage in New York City, it is no longer a strict disambiguation page. Does anyone strongly support or oppose this idea? –Joke 17:26, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

See for the origin of the word downtown (Ana Pinto's hypothesis of downtown): https://www.researchgate.net/publication/263357153_THE_PARADOXICAL_NATURE_OF_THE_ENGLISH_WORD_DOWN_THE_CASE_OF_DOWNTOWN_15102008_ISBN_978-84-362-5553-9_Coleccion_VARIA

Just pulled bizarre footnote

I just took out the following footnote:

For the etymology of the word downtown as a common noun, see Ana Pinto written in 2006, published in 2008, "The Paradoxical Nature of the English Word Down. The Case of Downtown." The paper was published in Estudios de Filología Inglesa. Madrid: Editorial Universidad Nacional de Educación a Distancia. 2008, pp 257-268. The final part of the abstract reads as follows: "... A case in point is the originally American expression downtown for 'city centre.' But considering that the present-day meaning of downtown can hardly be deduced from the respective meanings of the two elements composing the word, a hypothesis is advanced to account for why, contrary to linguistic expectations, today downtown means what it means."

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/263357153_THE_PARADOXICAL_NATURE_OF_THE_ENGLISH_WORD_DOWN_THE_CASE_OF_DOWNTOWN_15102008_ISBN_978-84-362-5553-9_Coleccion_VARIA

This is quite an interesting subject, especially as it seems to get people's dander up.

Thought I'd just enter the fray for fun.

It seems that there are a number of issues going on simultaneously, and word origins and the like are getting in the way of organizing them. That it may be a primarily North American term should not disqualify it for inclusion in Wikipedia. I hope we would not advocate the elimination of the term "High Street" just because it is not used (or even known) in the US. Downtown is not a joke term, or slang, or a lazy person's way of expressing another concept. It is a formal and universally used word. It also has the great advantage of being both noun and adverb.

That said, there may be much overlap, conceptually, with terms that refer substantially to the same concept (City Center/Centre City, CBD, etc.), and branching to a more universally used term for a generic description seems reasonable.

Downtown is a concept (similar to "the high street" or "the central business district"), a somewhat vaguely defined geographical area applicable to most US cities and quite a few towns, and a specific area of Manhattan. It is also a direction.

Generally, North Americans will refer to the downtown as the historic(al) center of a city, and it may or may not still have people living in it but it is usually a center of business. in the past it would also have had most of the major retail. Generally, if you live downtown, you live downtown, not "in" downtown, as someone stated in the main article. A construction like 'in downtown" would be found when speaking of the collective concept, as in, "You won't find many remaining department stores in America's downtowns." Similarly, when people say they're "going downtown" they usually mean they're going to "the place with the tall buildings" or to the place where the government buildings and museums are or to the center of all that suburban sprawl, other geography permitting.

As a naming device, it's quite convenient: "Where are you going?" "Where do you work/live?" "Downtown." To Americans this rolls off the tongue much more smoothly than "to/in the Central Business District."

Also, Downtown is not necessarily synonymous with "inner city" living, which is really about residential high density on a grid, not about where all the bank buildings are. (Many Americans who do not live in successful cities would also probably consider "inner city" to be synonymous with "the ghetto." Sadly amusing, that.) So inner-city living may or may not be downtown.

In Manhattan, Downtown as a geographic area is the area (more or less) south of 14th Street. Some would call it "Lower Manhattan," but this term is normally used in the context of discussing development plans, not day-to-day living. Wall Street, near the southern tip, might be described as "way downtown." Greenwich Village, Tribeca, Chinatown, and Soho are all downtown.

As noted in other areas, going uptown and downtown in Manhattan depends upon where you are. If you are going south, you're headed downtown; if north, you're headed uptown. However, as with so many things in language, context matters. If I'm at Lincoln Center (59th Street) and say, "I'm going downtown," I don't mean that I'm going to 57th Street. I mean I'm going to the Village or south. But if I'm with someone and they're wondering whether we can split a cab, then "going downtown" means south, not the destination. Cellmaker (talk) 20:26, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

- I really think that any use of the word "downtown" when talking about NYC is just out of place outside riding the subway where you are either headed in the UPTOWN or DOWNTOWN directions. DOWNTOWN everywhere else would be the cities main central business district, or at the very least the more urban area with more offices and more of a focus on shopping, dining, and entertainment. But since Manhattan has TWO central business districts (Midtown Manhattan and Lower Manhattan) and enough distinct neighborhoods (many that are more "downtown" oriented than many other full blown cities in the USA) this meaning is essentially destroyed.. I really don't even hear anyone in NYC refer to a certain place or any general area as "downtown", only as a direction, because the word simply has the wrong meaning when applied to a metropolis. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.193.39.27 (talk) 19:21, 28 March 2009 (UTC) Who are you to take out that footnote? What authority do you have to despise its accurate contents?

NOT SO BIZARRE

Not so bizarre.

Please try this link for the whole article about the origin of the word downtown:https://www.researchgate.net/publication/263357153_THE_PARADOXICAL_NATURE_OF_THE_ENGLISH_WORD_DOWN_THE_CASE_OF_DOWNTOWN_15102008_ISBN_978-84-362-5553-9_Coleccion_VARIA . For the etymology of the word downtown as a common noun, see Ana Pinto (written in 2006, published in 2008), "The Paradoxical Nature of the English Word Down. The Case of Downtown." The paper was published in Estudios de Filología Inglesa. T. Gibert and L. Alba (eds.). Madrid: Editorial Universidad Nacional de Educación a Distancia. 2008, pp 257-268. ISBN: 978-84-362-5553-9. Its contents can be accessed through the above link. The final part of the abstract reads as follows: "... A case in point is the originally American expression downtown for 'city centre.' But considering that the present-day meaning of downtown can hardly be deduced from the respective meanings of the two elements composing the word, a hypothesis is advanced to account for why, contrary to linguistic expectations, today downtown means what it means."

When Ana Pinto began writing this essay and concluded it (2006), there was NOTHING written about "downtown" in WIKIPEDIA. She has certain suspicions of someone from the USA having read her essay that year, given that -before being published in Spain- it was sent (July 2006) to an American journal and its editor intended -as he said and wrote- to pass it to referees immediately. Today is the date that the editor of the mentioned journal has not replied. Sometime after the essay was sent, there appeared a short notice about the origin of the word "downtown" in WIKIPEDIA" (Pinto has a facsimile of what was written) containing Pinto's hypothesis. Rather suspicious, isn't it? She hopes her link will appear now in the right place and the "witty" scholar who pulled the footnote would correct his words about its bizarre character. However she admits that he was right about the way the essay was cited. It has been corrected. This is why Pinto has deleted his "reprimand", but she would not mind if he insisted on including it again.

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