Talk:Dwyane Wade/Archive 1

Name

Some note about his name being spelled "Dwyane" is in order, maybe not at the top. It is a very confusing spelling, and a google search returned about 1/3 as many results for "Dwayne Wade" as the correct "Dwyane Wade," so it is spelled wrong frequently enough that is worth noting (see also Isiah Thomas).

2006 NBA Finals Section

Was this article written expressly to fellate Dwyane Wade in print? It's not an encyclopedia entry - it would be more at home on a Miami Heat fan site.

That's the kind of language one should expect from someone who posts in articles entitled "Lists of songs about homosexuality" and is still bitter about last years NBA Finals. Get over it. Dwyane is one of the better players in the league. The article is in a NPOV. It mentions both positive and negative aspects of his game. Everything else, relating to his performance in the NBA Finals (which was impressive), is completely well sourced. Get over it. Zodiiak 12:16, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Phrases such as as "after entering the league with little fanfare as the fifth pick," "seemingly getting to the line at will," "known for his ability to hit lay-ups even after hard mid-air collisions," and "as exciting as his high-flying style" do not indicate an NPOV. Also, the recurring mentions of illnesses with which he has played, or supposedly played, are ridiculous. Every prominent athlete's wikipedia entry would be riddled with these kinds of references if every author were as eager to promote that particular athlete's image. These references are of course unsourced; the only reference that could be provided would be a link to claims made by Heat personnel, which of course would not be fit for an encyclopedia entry unless the claims were accompanied by a proper qualifier.

When he came in the league (you can goto nba.com/draft2003 or something similar), the hype was all around LeBron and Carmelo, followed by Darko, where were you when that was going on? Gets to the line at will--he's number 1 in Free Throw Attempts. High-Flying, and hitting lay ups after collisions, how else would you define his play? In every single game, every commentor defines his game as "Wreckless." His first commercial even notes his style of play, fall down 7, stand up 8. That's his style of play, if you have a better way of defining it, then please share. The injuries/illness were all well documentated during the playoffs, and are all within context. In addition, they are all well sourced; the citations are included within the paragraphs. Frankly, let me be blunt, what the hell is your beef? I'll take a wild guess; you're angry that one of your favorite athletes article isn't as well written, cited, and sourced as Wade's? The article is NPOV, again, if you think you have a better way of putting something, discuss as opposed to just dropping a pointless rant. Zodiiak 03:47, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

"severely bruised hip," "suffering from intense pain..." Yada yada yada. None of these are sourced - you're just talking out of your ass. If you wrote the article, of course you're going to be defensive, but, judging from the comments here, there are a number of people who don't see this article as "neutral." I don't think you understand what an encyclopedia is supposed to be.

No, I didn't write the article, but I wouldn't be ashamed to take credit for writing, in fact, I praise the writing of the article, which is why i contribute where ever I can. I have a masters degree, and have written in more neutral tones than you will ever read about in your life. Once again, I'm not going to go back and forth with this, everything is noted, and cited--by nba.com and espn, no less. Someone has just opened up a section on Wade's injuries which basically sumarizes a generally accepted fact on his play, while being injured. Anything else you have to say, why not open up your own article, or make your own edits--cited/sourced. Zodiiak 21:28, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

"I have written in more neutral tones than you will ever read about in your life." I also have a Master's degree, but the incorrect usage in that sentence would probably be identified by a reasonably astute eighth grader. Unless, of course, you're saying that I will never read about all the neutral tones you've written in, which is probably true. What you meant to say, however, is that the number of neutral tone pieces you've written is greater than the number of neutral tone pieces I've ever read (which is most certainly not the case). Also, if the incoherence of the first run-on sentence is indicative of your own writing skill, I'm not surprised that you're impressed with this article. It also makes me wonder about the quality of whatever degree-granting institution you attended. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.207.182.99 (talk • contribs).,

Pathetic, no further comment necessary. - Zodiiak 01:27, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree that you should keep your comments brief. The less you say, the less opportunity you have to sound like an idiot.

It's great to see how personal you've taken the editing of an article, and I don't mean that in a sarcastic way. It shows that you are passionate in your views, but you've taken it so personal that you've stouped to the typical 10 year old online defensive of "uh well uh...you've got poor grammar man!!! ah hah! take that!" I don't know why you've taken my comments so personal, I haven't personally attacked you in any way, I've simply defended the writing of the article...and so have an assortment of other prominent Wikipedia editors, who work extremely hard in maintaining the integrity of it. Look, everyone who contributes to the article, tries to be as Neutral as possible. No one wants to use phrases such as, "the greatest in history," or anything similar...all editors want to be as neutral as possible, while being respectful to the context of the material they are editing/adding. I've addressed the phrases/comments you viewed as POV, and have pointed out that they were well sourced and not just an editor, as you put it--"Talking out of their ass." Other than that, I don't know what else can possibly be said or done to satisfy you. Perhaps nothing (but then why would you come to the discussion board), but again, for the third time, I'll say; if you have anything relevant to add or edit, simply cite and source it. There's no need for personal attacks, it's a discussion forum, and I've simply tried to address your comments, but you've now gone outside of discussing the article to pointless grammar insults. There's just no need for that. Zodiiak 03:06, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Grammar insults are pretty pointless, but then, so is attempting to end an argument by bringing up your education. Also, your very first comment in this exchange was a personal insult that referenced something entirely unrelated. I'll admit - my first comment was not constructive, and probably doomed any real chance of discussion about this. I disagree wholly that this article was written at arm's length; the continuous unnecessary referencing of injuries (sourced or not) indicates to me, and to others, that the article attempts to advance an image. The fact that he plays injured is not unique. It could justifiably be mentioned once that he is known for playing injured. Reciting the individual instances where this happened is distracting. ````

Does anyone else think that this section in the article is a bit too fawning? I mean, D Wade is a good player, but calling him "brilliant" is a bit too excessive for an encyclopedia.

• true wade is a good player, but remember he has had one of the highest scoring Finals in NBA history. to not recognize that is some what disarming.
• do watch basketball?^, dwade avg. 16 ft a game in the FINALS, something kobe, jordan, magic, and bird have never done. this player gets too much help from the refs including that blatent pistons series. he is over-hyped, and the league goes like this KOBE>LEBRON>WADE, know his place@$%!

Do YOU watch basketball? Dwyane is known to sacrafice his body for the game. He gets to the line because he earns it. His outside shooting is not as good as Kobe so he choose to DRIVE the ball, which is why he gets to the freethrow line. Over-Hyped? Why don't you go watch a Miami game. He's averaging over 28 points a game, along with over 8 assists per game, if anything he's "under-hyped." Everything stated in this article is relevent. Leave the fan-fare out of the article.Zodiiak 03:57, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

• • • Anyone who watches basketball significantly will tell you that the "sacrifice" of his body is part of an advertising campaign and is extremely exaggerated by the media. While you might want to "leave the fan-fare out of the article" it should be noted that Wade does shoot an exorbitant amount of free throws. Currently he averages 11.1 FTA/Game. The next closest is AI with 10.1. Yes, Wade leads the NBA in Free Throws attempted (on average and total, despite playing 7 games less than the #2 player Gilbert Arenas). This is not to say that other players do not draw fouls as well, but most NBA fans that I know of (as thats all I can speak for) do make a point of noting that Wade gets plenty of foul calls. And no, they are not all deserved. Most? Yes. All? NO.NRK 07:07, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

• • Just an added note. Cleveland has yet to win a game in Miami since 2001, look at the stats during the games of when Lebron played Wade. Also, look at the season splits of when Miami faced the Lakers, and match up Wade's stats against Kobe's.

• I think that this article definitely has a bit of a bias and should be cleaned up. I too agree that Wade is a good player, and perhaps one of the best players in the league, but the phrasing of the article still seems a little too strong.

Please give examples Zodiiak 03:58, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

• • • I'll throw out a few because while the article is relatively good, it's definitely not overly objective. The continual listing on "injuries" that Wade suffers from during the games is pretty poor. Many players have played with a multitude of injuries and don't have notes made about it in their bios. Morever, the tone of those sections seems to suggest that the author believes that the "injuries" had an impact on the loss. While this speculation may be true, it is not very good for a Wiki entry. Finally, I would like to point out that I really don't want to stoop to the level of certain sports networks which report his every injury like its a matter of life or death. NRK 07:07, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

See the bottom of the talk page and please respond to comments on the talk page directly below other people's comments. This jumping up and down is confusing. Quadzilla99 05:55, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Request to add info

I would like to add some info that is cited, however I am a new user. "Dwyane Wade was born with the mispelling in his first name. His birth certificate was misspelled and thus has lived with the misnomer ever since." http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1862367/bio

Removed section

I removed the following section, titled "Strenghts" [sic]: Wade has great court vision, wich he combines with strong, athletic and quick penetrating moves to the basket. Due to this he is able to get alot of free throws. His dribbling skills are superbe; his fast cross-over and spinning move makes him an excellent 1 on 1 offensive player and he has developed a consistent mid range jumpshot. Wade is among the league leaders in points per game and in free throws made and attempted. [all sic] This information needs to be sourced or cited in order to be added, or it otherwise could qualify as original research. Thanks! Flcelloguy (A note?) 23:57, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Removed sentence

I removed the following sentence: "With his sponsership with Converse, a commercial has been released stating fall down 7 times, get up 8. When people think about it this can't happen at all." [sic] Wow.

Tournament triple double

There's a line in the article that reads: Wade was only the fourth player in NCAA Men's Tournament history to record a triple-double... I believe this is incorrect, but the resources I have found on the matter are conflicting. This says that only three players (Wade included) have done it, while this says that eight have. I'm not sure how reliable either resource is, but I suggest the line in the article be changed to note simply that he had the triple double, and not who the other players were.

• Yes, he was only the third player in NCAA Tournament history to do so. It is stated in his NBA player file, college background notes. Here is the link: [1]. The proper edits have been made Zodiiak 04:23, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

You do realize you're responding to a comment that's 10 months old, right? --Maxamegalon2000 04:34, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Isn't it clear that he's a Wade fan and wants to inflate his bio as much as possible. I think from his rabid defense of him it's quite apparent. NRK 07:18, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

• • Noting a rarity, such as only the 3rd triple double in NCAA tournament history is inflation? How is that not a noteable accomplishment? Zodiiak 07:21, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

• • • Its a cumulative effect, not just this example, but note the defenses of Wade all over the page. I'm all for being objective, and I understand people disagree on certain things, but every one of your stances has shed Wade in positive light. It could be coincidence, and you obviously are entitled to your opinions, but if we're striving for more objectivity in the entries what other people say needs to be take into consideration. NRK 07:51, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

• • Yes, we are striving for NPOV. If you are pointing out that I am sheding Wade in a positive light, then utilizing the same argument, I can say that you are attempting to shed Wade in a negative light--evidenced by your "Rabid" stance against him. Everyone of my comments are based on facts, relavent stats and accomplishments. Your beefing that we noted he was only the third player in NCAA Tournament history to have a triple double, and now you're retreating on that based on what exactly??? Zodiiak 08:16, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I never had a problem with the NCAA triple-double fact. It's listed in his NBA.com bio. While there is some conflicting evidence, I'd say it's solid enough. If you note I was not the original poster, I merely responded to someone else's post about the lenghthy delay. And I don't know where you get the "stance against him" - look below and above at my other comments where I point out that the article is relatively good and that Wade is a very good player. I'm merely working on the objectivity and I think people are a little too touchy about excluding things, but when it comes to including them, they're all for it. You're not the only one, you just happen to be more vocal about it. I don't blame you, and I don't think you're consciously trying trying to, but it can happen. NRK 17:00, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

NBA bio intros

These things read like press releases from the players' agents sometimes. We don't need to be told that he's 24 because we're previously told when he was born. It's not encyclopedic to say that he's one of the "brightest" stars in the NBA. We don't need the young-but-talented routine either, like I had to remove from Amare Stoudemire's article, and I'm sure it's on a dozen other articles. If you're interested in editing sports bios, I recommend looking around for some of these cheesey intros to fix. Duckdid 04:39, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Dwyane Wade picture

Can someone verify if the dwyane wade profile picture currently being used is fair-use and is not a copyright violation?

response:i saw the same picture in a slam mag a year ago ps: spell his name right

Duhon 2 June 2006

Dwyane's new nickname

Is it okay to dubb a player a new nickname in this site?

No. Wikipedia only complies information that already exists and is notable. If the nickname in question were to be dubbed outside of Wikipedia and become famous enough, it could be added to the article. If you're interested in learning more about this concept, may I recommend as further reading the policies Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Verifiability? Do not fret; many new users would not even bother to ask. --Maxamegalon2000 04:40, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Wade County

It's my understanding that "Wade County" is not Dwyane Wade's nickname. It surely is a nickname for Dade County (Miami's county), but is not a nickname for Wade himself --X96lee15 21:32, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

2006 NBA Finals controversy

I probably should have started a conversation about this here earlier, and for this I apologize. I question the appropriateness of an entire section in this article on the officiating controversy. The existence of a controversy is verifiable and relevent, and the edit history will show that I worked to maintain its mention in this article once it was properly cited.

That being said, this is an article about Dwyane Wade, not the 2006 NBA Finals. I thought the first paragraph, once properly cited, was approprate and asserted notability. The second paragraph, a response to the concerns about the officiating, only cemented the inclusion of the information in my mind. However, I'm not sure we need to quote the pieces cited as liberally as some have been, and in the grand scheme of things I don't think more than two paragraphs is warranted in an article about Wade.

On the other hand, I remember the difficulties had at the Super Bowl XL article after that game, and notice that there hasn't been any activity at 2006 NBA Finals similar to what's occurring here. The solution was a separate article, Reaction to Officiating in Super Bowl XL. It is for this reason that I question the good faith of editors that have been placing this information at this article. I recommend that the officiating controversy be limited to a paragraph at this article, albeit one of sufficient size to document both sides of the argument, with the more in-depth coverage desired by some left to 2006 NBA Finals, if not Reaction to Officiating in 2006 NBA Finals.

I just think this article isn't the place for such detail. I've already been warned about too many reverts, so I'll wait for consensus before making any more edits. --Maxamegalon2000 20:36, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

just as long as it's presented fairly, then it's fine. it seems like quotes are allowed in defense of wade and the officiating (like the Wilbon quote), yet quotes criticizing it are immediately reverted (Simmons and Jackson quotes). keep it fair and that would be great.--71.252.166.177 04:20, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

i went ahead and removed the section. yes it was very well cited; however, does that really add to mr. wade as a player? imagine if Michael Jordan had a section had an entry for each time there was some officiating controversy. it would be a book by itself. overall it doesnt add to him and it is more reflective of the league he is playing in. unless that controversy was the definiting moment in his career like O.J.'s evasion of the law. --User:unsure of my ip address

I think a difference between Wade and Jordan is that Jordan's career has ended and can be looked at in retrospect to determine the most notable parts. I think that as Wade's career progresses, the section on his most recent season will become progressively smaller, but that at the moment it is not for Wikipedia to assume as much. I'm going to re-add a paragraph; I think it's just as notable a subject as the rest of the paragraphs in the section on the 2006 season. --Maxamegalon2000 17:35, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

that's a fair view of it. i still suggest that we should keep the article as neutral as possible otherwise wade's article might degenerate into something that happened with Kobe Bryant's entry. basically his entry became a biography and every nick-nack was thrown into the mix despite having tons of references. --User:unsure of my ip address

• The fact is there is a perception at least among the fans I know that Wade gets too many foul calls. Let me just quote fanball (www.fanball.com) from tonight's game as an illustration: "The News. The referees made every call guard Dwyane Wade could ever want in Thursday's win over the Cavaliers. Wade scored 41 points, despite turning the ball over 12 times. The 23 free throws that he hit in 24 attempts helped his cause. Our View. This is one of the lamest 40 point games in history. Wade was a turnover machine, and shot poorly from the field. The referees deserve a good portion of credit for Wade's success on Thursday." Its worth noting. Sorry it might not reflect well on him, but if you want to be objective you need to take it into consideration. NRK 07:11, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't disagree with you. If you can find a source that asserts this tendency over the course of a season or his career, rather than just one game, then I think it does deserve mention. --Maxamegalon2000 17:08, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

There has been talk throughout history that every superstar from Larry Bird, to Michael Jordan, to Tim Duncan etc gets foul calls from refs. It's common for opposing fans of every team to say this, find evidence that Wade somehow stands out. I'm sure I could find hundreds of articles on the internet on superstars from Oscar Robertson to Dirk Nowitzki supposedly getting calls. Oh and the guy he was playing against has had that said about him plenty also. Quadzilla99 17:49, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. I don't know of any sources off hand. I will look into it though. I do agree that it needs to be a consistent theme and not just a handful of games that people complain about. And Quadzilla, while you're right, there have been complaints, it was definitely never to the point that Wade was in my opinion. NRK 18:52, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

I couldn't disagree more. Two things: First, there have been accusations of star treatment for years and years in the NBA (going back to the 1940's) it's pointless to start a section for Wade, if you do you then need to start a section for every star player in Wikipedia. I'm 100% sure I could find sources for just about any star. You also said "there have been complaints", there's been outrage over and over again from fans all over the league at the end of every playoffs. There was complete outrage by Sacramento's fans after 2002, the Spurs fans after Bowen got called for a foul on Nowitzki after game 4 (they've won championships so the complaining was a little less), Bulls fans after the Hubert Davis foul in 1994, etc. You're saying that you can't remember any is refuted by my saying I can (very clearly) and you know what? They died down. Second, technically including it in the Wade article, except in passing, is totally incorrect. Wade is not responsible for the foul calls, so it's not really about Wade. The criticism is of the NBA and it's refs the criticisms should go to the article on the NBA (start a star treatment section) or the 2006 NBA Finals article with a one sentence description linking to them in this article. Going into long detail on foul calls serve to put a little disclaimer on Wade. Trust me though if you follow basketball like I do after the playoffs are over this year assuming the Heat don't repeat the NBA will be on to it's next thing, this big thing is small compared to the hailstorm of complaining coming out of Sacramento in 2002 and I see no signs of that on the Kobe or Shaq articles. Quadzilla99 23:19, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

While I do agree with a lot of what you said, my view on the situation is not that a certain group of fans (i.e. - Sacramento fans, Bulls fans, etc.) have mentioned it but that in general basketball fans have. I know its hard to conceptualize and even harder to put into a Wiki entry, which is why I haven't even considered editing the Wade entry. Unfortunately my opinion counts for nothing when it goes into doing Wiki entries, but my belief is that Wade's treatment has been worse/better (depending on how you're looking at it) than most of the other stars from the past 20 years (all I can really speak for). Don't even get me started on Bowen! I do however, think that a good approach to it would be in NBA star treatment. NRK 18:06, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Like I said it goes into an article about the NBA with no more one sentence linking to that going here. Such as "Some fans and media members have questioned the amount of foul calls or preferential treatment Wade gets from NBA referees." Then link some some of those questions to a reaction to the 2006 NBA Finals article or even better a section in the NBA article that questions refs decisions over the years. Oh boy are you mistaken if you think this is the worst refereeing scandal in NBA history let's have a little perspective here. Quadzilla99 07:16, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

No sorry, I should have been clear, I don't think its the worst refereeing scandal in NBA History, though thats an interesting side topic. To date, I haven't found anything extensive on Wade to be supported in his bio. Though I did discover that he's #10 all time in Free Throws Attempted /Game. Interesting. [2] —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nkowal (talk • contribs) 21:07, 11 February 2007 (UTC).

• Goodness. Dwyane has only played 3 years in the league, he's not All-Time anything in that respect. You need to play a minimum of 10 years (maybe slightly less) in the league before you consider a stat like that, or something like PPG average to be on the All-Time list. If not, someone who had a very good year (Averaging 28ppg) could be considered what, number 4 all time in points per game. There are minimum requirements that need to be fullfilled. It's amazing how that is the only thing people seem to be so stuck on about Dwyane, "he gets to the line too much." So what? He does that better than almost anyone in the league (Allen Iverson has been doing it for 10 years now, and no one notes how many free throws he's attempted). Who cares, he's one of the few players I've seen who drive hard to the basket on a consistent basis* [because of his poor outside shooting] (along side LeBron, who finished last year first in traditional three point players, and I didn't hear anyone complain about that). Zodiiak 04:30, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Aren't some of these "milestones" a bit too specific?

For example, One of five NBA players to have at least 35 points, 10 rebounds, 4 steals, 3 blocks, 5 assists and 50% shooting accuracy (10/18 field goals) in an NBA finals close-out game. is much too specific to be considered a true milestone. They are so ridiculously convoluted that they effectively mean nothing instead of having some importance. DaBears34 02:10, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Probably. The one you quote is, I guess, the most quantifiable way of saying Had one of the best NBA Finals-clinching performances of all time. --Maxamegalon2000 03:03, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

• Yeah, I actually agree with this. I'm considering removing some of them, but I do not want to upset some of the other WikiEditors who work hard on maintaining this article, such as Quadzilla99. I agree that some are important, and others are just really specific (And yes, I realize this question was asked over a year ago, but I'd rather add to this, then start a new discussion based on it). Zodiiak 21:41, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Number 3

I added the following statements to the trivia section of this article: "Wade chose number 3 because it represents the Holy Trinity. He tithes 10% of his salary to a church in Chicago."

I realize that claims such as these are likely to be challenged. I'm not sure exactly how to cite sources, but I did find these comments on page 14 of "Sports Illustrated Presents Miami Heat Special Collectors Edition." JNeal 23:34, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Major work done

Okay I found some bulletproof photos for him, improved the infobox photo for him by cropping and contrasting it, sourced everything in the article per WP:Cite, incorporated the trivia section into the body of the article per WP:Trivia, copyedited it, expanded the lead section, and wikified it. It's pretty close to Good Article status now. Not bad for a day's work. Quadzilla99 02:11, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Indeed. Good job. --Maxamegalon2000 02:34, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Good article nomination

Hi, I'm going to place this article on hold. I don't think that the issues I've got are big enough that a straight fail is necessary. Hopefully you can address these issues in the next week. Here is my review that I've split up based on the Good Article criteria:

1

• The prose needs work, there are lots of run on sentences, for example: "Wade attended H. L. Richards High School in Oak Lawn, playing for the Bulldogs." These need to be fixed.

I believe that's done have a look-see. Quadzilla99 04:35, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

• Some sentences need to be rewritten, they are just to hard to read, especially the long ones with lots of statistics, for example: "In the first round of the 2005 NBA Playoffs (a sweep of the New Jersey Nets), Wade became only the seventh player in league history to average at least 25 points, eight assists and six rebounds while making half his shots in a playoff series, averaging 26.3 points, 8.8 assists, and 6.0 rebounds at 50% field-goal shooting (the other players to accomplish this are all members of the Basketball Hall of Fame: Bob Cousy, Oscar Robertson, Wilt Chamberlain, Larry Bird, Magic Johnson and Michael Jordan)."

Done, I removed pretty much all of them as I was unable to find sources for most of them and some of them were just silly. If you choose abitrary cutoff points to use a reference point you can make a lot of silly references. For instance last year Tony Parker became only the third point guard to shoot 55% and take over 1,000 shots. The other two? Oscar Robertson and Magic Johnson, is he in their league? Hell no, it's debatable he's even in the top five point guards in the league. Those kinds of lists are misleading and fancruft (Parker is awesome by the way, just not nearly that awesome). Quadzilla99 03:22, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

*The lead needs to be expanded a little, please see WP:LEAD.

Done. Quadzilla99 04:26, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

• Jargon, this is pretty bad. I'm someone from outside the US, and know a little about Basketball (I watch it occasionally). There is a lot of Basketball, and American jargon throughout this article. It's fine to have it, but it needs to be wiki-linked to an article explaining what it means. Here are some words that will need it (this is not a complete list):

Done, see my comments below. Quadzilla99 03:13, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

*sophomore, junior year, assists,

Done. Quadzilla99 11:43, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

• The jargon can especially be intimidating for someone unfamiliar with basketball, and as there is a large amount of statistics in this article that could become a real problem.

Done. Quadzilla99 03:13, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

• Also with jargon, don't have an abbreviation like "PPG" unless you have already said it in full, then followed that by the acronym in brackets; "points per game (PPG)", also NCAA, AP, etc

Done. Quadzilla99 11:06, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

• Wiki link dates, September 28 for example, this means that someone who prefers 28 September sees that, rather then September 28 (this is controlled by ones account preference settings).

Done. Quadzilla99 02:52, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

• Overall I find that what has been written can be a little daunting, there are a lot of statistics, and unless it's well written, it's easy to "switch off". You may want to try and make it a little less intense on the numbers side, just for people like me! (ie non-basketballers)

While I do agree it would be nice to have more general human interest stories unfortunately, and I do agree with you, as long as something is in the proper format it qualifies as a GA or FA no matter how boring or bland it is. See this review [3] where myself and two other editors complained about a short bland numbers driven article about a Hurricane that had absolutely nothing at all that made it stand out yet it was still promoted to FA. That said I will search the internet for stories to make it more interesting to the general reader. Quadzilla99 03:13, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

2

• You need to add more references. It's good to see them in there, and clearly a good start has been made. However there are disputable statements in here that need referencing. Please reference any statistics for one, where did you get these numbers from? Look at the 'Olympic career' section, only has one reference.

I looked over every stat and everything is cited. It has been decided in other articles such as Wayne Gretzky, Bill Russell, and Gilberto Silva that when a list of stats is compiled to have one or two sources at the beginning of the sections to act as a source for the section (such as a player's stat page on a web site which has all the stats being listed) so that the article doesn't become ugly and cluttered with citations. If anyone individual stats are disputed then someone can look them up and see for themselves. Quadzilla99 04:45, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

• Also, please clear up the citation templates. You need to include the author, and date of the articles if you can. Not just the url, title, and accessdate. Also, some should be news, rather then web templates. See WP:CITET.

That is a personal preference and not a requirement see Wayne Gretzky among others. In WP:CITET is states "The use of Citation templates is not required by WP:CITE and is neither encouraged nor discouraged by any other Wikipedia citation guidelines.". Quadzilla99 04:29, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

3

• The article does well here. Good work.

4

• Unfortunately this article has quite a few statements that are POV. There is editorialising throughout the article; let the facts speak for themselves! I don't need to be told he's dynamic in the lead, because he was the Sports Illustrated Sportsman of the year. I'm going to list a few examples. Please rewrite these, or even removed them:

Done. Quadzilla99 03:17, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

• "Wade has established himself as one of the most dynamic young players in the NBA today"

Done. Quadzilla99 11:27, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

*"Perhaps Wade's most memorable collegiate moment" Perhaps? says who? memorable is a poor choice of words anyway. Whose memory are we talking about?

Done. Quadzilla99 10:58, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

*"Wade's strong play in the tournament caused his draft stock to increase significantly" get a ref for this.

Done. Quadzilla99 11:03, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

• "He further distinguished himself with outstanding performances in the 2004 NBA Playoffs" find a ref (needs to be notable)

Done, his nba.com bio lists several accomplishments he achieved during the 2004 NBA Playoffs that hadn't been done by a rookie in almost 20 years. Quadzilla99 11:16, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

• "and owing to this the Heat were picked by many as title contenders."

Done. Quadzilla99 11:37, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

• "Wade continued to display his great ability."

Done, I must have removed that because I can't find it. Quadzilla99 05:17, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

• "Despite the all-star talent, the team only won a bronze medal." don't even get me started!

Done. Quadzilla99 11:05, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

• "established himself as one of the quickest and most difficult to guard players in the NBA" i see no mention of speed in the reference.

Done, you have to pay for the service to get the entire review but it still qualifies as a source like any magazine or any other publication that charges for it's purchase. NYTimes, Time magazine, NYTimes.com, etc. Quadzilla99 11:41, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

• "he is now also widely recognized as a premier clutch player." btw, whats a clutch player?

Done. A clutch player is a player who doesn't wilt or choke under pressure. He comes through in the big games, the championship moments, like a Roger Federer or a Michael Jordan. The statement is cited and his 2006 NBA Finals MVP is also evidence he performs in the clutch. Quadzilla99 11:27, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

• Anyway I'm stopping now, but there may be more.

5

• No probs here

6

*The images are good, but please wiki-link "Milwaukee Bucks" in one caption.

Done. Quadzilla99 11:10, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

OK, done. I think my "review" looks worse then it is. The main things are run-on sentences, jargon, adding some citations, removing POV stuff, and fixing up the references. This is less work then it looks like I think. I'll put it on hold. Any questions contact me at my talk page. - Shudda ^talk 05:53, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Hey, looks like lots of work has been done. I'll have a proper read through later, I've just had a very quick view so far. My only concern is the refs, please changed them to WP:CITET format. For example {{cite news| url= |title= |date= |last= |first= |publisher= |accessdate= }} I'll have a closer look by the end of the day. - Shudda ^talk 22:32, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

I've already commented on that, that is a personal preference and not a requirement see Wayne Gretzky among others. In WP:CITET it states "The use of Citation templates is not required by WP:CITE and is neither encouraged nor discouraged by any other Wikipedia citation guidelines.". Quadzilla99 06:31, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Dwyane Wade Career Achievements

In order to trim down the fancruft in this article I created this page. Much as was done in the Michael Jordan and Wayne Gretzky articles. For two reasons: 1) the article was becoming long as it was 30 kb and he is only in his 4th year (imagine it at this pace in 10 years), and 2) User:Shudda.nz raised a good point, namely for non-basketball fans it will probably become very boring after a certain point. Anyway have a ball over there with the "only the (xth) player to average (x) and (x) and (x) for so and so number of games" stats. Don't expand the Career Achievements section in this article anymore except for really important accomplishments. Quadzilla99 07:16, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Quadzilla99 13:45, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

• As always, great work Quadzilla. Zodiiak 19:25, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Thanks. Quadzilla99 21:40, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

GA passing

I've passed this for GA. I still have a few comments though.

• First, before I forget, good work on the records section, it was way to long not to be turned into an article, although the name may need to be changed (check the naming conventions, but maybe should be "List of Dwyane Wade achievements"). The record section could maybe be delisted as well; converted into a couple of paragraphs instead of a list.

Comment Because so few of those are records it can't be records like Wayne Gretzky's records so I used the same name as Career achievements of Michael Jordan if another better name can be come up with I'll be fine with it. I think it's alright currently though. Quadzilla99 14:31, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

• Other comments, be careful of NPOV statements. Instead, maybe have things like "according to the NY Times, Dwyane Wade was the most blah blah blah of this season", etc etc.

Comment most editors keep a good eye on this, there are a few fans who post here (mostly anons) who just post fancruft and blow him kisses. The article has to be watched closely. Quadzilla99 15:13, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

• Consider expanding the lead.

Comment It does need to be longer I or maybe anyone else who is willing to work on it should try to expand it. Quadzilla99 15:30, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

• Wiki-link steals and recruited (when recruited is used in NZ, it means you were hired or you joined, not you were asked to join or whatever).

Done. I added a section describing sports recruiting to the page titled recruitment and wikilinked there. Quadzilla99 13:22, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

• Change "On 28 September 2006, nearly 3" to "On 28 September 2006, nearly three"; "Game 5" to "Game five"; "game 6" to "game six" - also, why is first "Game" then "game"? This should be the same.

Comment I changed the "3 years" wording however in America sports articles are written in the current format ie: game 6 and game 5 is mostly used, see these news articles as an example:[4][5][6] As you probably know the grammatical conventions of the article topic's country of origin are followed, like in British articles where honor is spelled honour etc.

*Change "3rd" to "third"

Done. Quadzilla99 14:48, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

• Please avoid the term memorable, its everywhere, and a little POV.

Comment I can't think of another less POV way to mention/bring up a game or performance of his that stands out. You have to bring it up somehow, suggestions are welcome.

*Find a ref for 'The team won a bronze medal, which disappointed many USA fans who had hoped for a return to the days of the original "Dream Team".' Otherwise remove it!

Done. Quadzilla99 14:48, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

• "and thus there have been overtone comparisons with him and Michael Jordan." add a ref here

Done, removed. Quadzilla99 13:39, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

• "At the age of 25, it is yet to be seen whether or not Wade's body will be able to handle this bold style of playing during his career." seriously consider removing this.

I sourced it as it is a common concern regarding him. He does seem to play with a style that is reckless in a good way. He even has a commercial that comments solely on this called "fall down seven times get up eight" which shows him falling down over and over throughout his career but continually getting up. I removed bold which is probably POV. Quadzilla99 13:46, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Actually you're right per WP:Crystal and I removed it. Quadzilla99 13:47, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

• Wiki-link "February 4th, 2002" to "4 February 2002"

Done. Quadzilla99 13:45, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

*Add a ref for "His nicknames include "Flash" and "D-Wade"." Also, add any information in the lead into the article somewhere. The lead is a summary (if I've been writing an article for some time, usually I do the lead last, because it's a summary of everything else).

Done. Quadzilla99 14:29, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

• This is only a suggestion, but you may want to have all the refs at the end of sentences, rather then after commas. It could make it easier to read, I find them distracting, but it's entirely up to you.

Comment many FA's such as Wayne Gretzky, Metal Gear Solid, Influenza, and many others have the current format. I think it's preferable academically and in some cases can't be avoided. Quadzilla99 14:29, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Academically I don't think it matters, which is why it's up to you to change it or not. However I do find it distracting, although I read many journal articles that have footnotes throughout a sentence, they aren't as intrusive (mainly because they are not blue). Like I said it's up to you, but I do find it makes it harder to read. It's a moot point though. - Shudda ^talk 23:41, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

My view on the refs thing, if you use the templates then everyone that adds refs will do so in the same format. Without the universal format, if someone, in 6 months, adds a ref, it may be formatted differently from the others. This is obviously a bad thing. So you may want to consider converting them to templates, it has it's advantages. Only other thing is prose. Some people may not like it that much, it could be better, but my prose is usually pretty average (so I can't preach). I'll pass for GA, but if none of the above has been fixed within a week, I'll nominate for GA review. So please do it. Good work on the article though, it looks much better now. - Shudda ^talk 10:26, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Templates are disliked by many editors myself included, the amount of clutter it creates is aggravating and it's more cumbersome than helpful (imo obviously). Any individual suggestions as to the prose I'll address. Quadzilla99 15:17, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Nowitzki comments and Pro D-Wade stance of the article

I took out the Nowitzki comments as, unless they meet in the finals, this will probably be forgotten about in a short time. Considering how young he is and how long the article already is (30 kb) we have to filter the material coming in and decide what merits space. Before the recent work done to make it a GA it had a ton of unnecessary information in there. Please feel free to comment on the matter here and let us reach a consensus. Quadzilla99 23:11, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Correction I just checked and it was whittled down to 26.6 kb. Quadzilla99 23:13, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

It is not worth an edit war for me, just felt that it is the first real controversy he has been involved in. I figure it is better than only having PPOV in the page. IMO of course, CodeCarpenter 03:56, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I am aware that this article doesn't take much time criticizing him, but in general he is seen as a good person. I mean if the article on Lou Gehrig is seen as positive it's for a good reason (namely, he was a fine human being).

I'm glad you brought up the pro Wade style of the article though as people keep bringing up his perceived favoritism from referees. The people who criticize him for getting a lot of calls are really criticizing the NBA if you think about it. I would be in favor of someone creating a "criticism of the officiating" section in the NBA article or a "criticism of the officiating in the 2006 NBA Finals" article similar to the one they have here for Super Bowl XL, with no more than one sentence in this article referring to it. Unless you're going to blame Dwyane Wade for getting the calls that's the way to go (Assuming you don't have evidence he or the Heat payed off the refs. I mean what's he supposed to do?-turn down the free throws when the refs blow the whistle?). The problem is no one's gotten off their lazy ass to do that, instead they just sit around complaining here. Quadzilla99 04:55, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

• Not to draw any comparison between the two, but MJ was known to get to the foul line as much, Magic Johnson use to joke about it all the time. In addition, if the Quote is that meaningful to anyone, they can always pop it in the WikiQuote section, making sure they keep it within context, and correctly cite/source it. But again, I think it's just bitter fans being petty Zodiiak 05:06, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

In this case, it was not a bitter fan tossing in the quote, it was me. I have been a Heat fan for YEARS, season tickets for season 1, I still have the newspaper from loss #17, and win #1 in game #18. I suffered through Lew Shaffel closing down the original Miami Heat Fan Club, to create a team owned "Miami Backboard Club" and wrestled with the original Burnie. We used to (to show how things have changed) be allowed to go on the court before the Heat games and get autographs from opposing players. So even though Bird's back was out, I still got his name (I was a Celtics fan before the Heat existed). I even got to see how tall real tall is when I shook hands with Kareem. I added the comments in both the DWade and Mark Cuban pages, and though I was attempting to be impartial on both, I think my reasoning should clearly be not that of a bitter fan. As a side note, I still recall that "* NBA All-Star Skills Challenge Champion 2006" was a big deal, beating King James in the process, so I think it should be re-added. However, I will leave that up to you and Quadzilla99 to decide. CodeCarpenter 19:17, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

• I agree with the Skills Challenge Champion, only because it seems to be getting more and more popular, with the pool of competitors growing bigger and bigger, Steve Nash (Replaced by Chris Paul), LeBron James (second appearance), and Kobe Bryant...i think it's worth noting he was the 06 Champ. The quote, however, I don't think is a big deal, unless it leads into something bigger, otherwise, i think it's something that can be noted in WikiQuote Zodiiak 19:48, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I disagree completely obviously but so far the consensus is to include it. Quadzilla99 10:44, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Note: one thing you just said may have been an error on your part if I understand you correctively. The size and quality of the players in the skills challenge is not a result of it's popularity among the fans or the players. When the NBA signed the new collective bargaining agreement they gained the right to assign any player in the league to do any all-star weekend activity other than the slam-dunk contest. In addition if any player does not participate in an assigned activity they are ineligible for the All-Star game:[7] Basically they're forced to do it. Nash himself recently complained about it before his injury. Quadzilla99 14:11, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

• • I didn't say they WANTED to join the competition, i said the pool of competitors is growing larger and larger. For that reason alone, i think it's worth noting that he won the skills contest--against James and Nash, no less. Whether or not the skills competition will become something as popular as the Dunk competition remains to be seen (I think it's a LONG way from there, and if it doesn't gain it's popularity soon, it'll probably be done away with). But, sine that future of the skills competition remains to be seen, I think right now, it's worth nothing. If it becomes more popular in the future, (in whatever unlikeliness that may be), some might look at as a 'Nique vs Jordan type of thing...who knows. Zodiiak 21:20, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

I just disagree and was stating my reasons in case anyone else wants to chime in. As of right now it's consensus (2-1) to keep it in and I disagree with keeping it in obviously. Just a friendly disagreement though, nothing for either us to get too upset over. If we both keep working on this article over time we're bound to disagree on some things. Quadzilla99 03:22, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Agreed =) Zodiiak 03:33, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Wades injuries

An anon IP suggests that Wade's injuries do not count. He jumps from section to section, making accusations, and then disappears. I will respond to his comments here. If the injuries keep him from playing (see ECF Game 6 in 2005), costing the Heat the game, how can you say they are fake? Then, if he plays through the injury, it is definitely worth noting. Since he has done this more than once, it is even more notable. To then claim the Miami Heat cannot be the source for injury reports on Heat players shows a definite anti-Heat bias in your comments and goals, not very encyclopedic, IMO. CodeCarpenter 14:58, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes I agree. Also his claims that there is pro-Wade bias in the article implies there are some obvious complaints about Wade we're leaving out. Being as the foul call complaints are aimed at the NBA and not Wade and people have no evidence that he is faking injuries, I don't see what we're leaving out. He is generally considered to be a good person. On the Michael Jordan page his gambling problems and his affair are mentioned. Wade hasn't had any extra-marital affairs or off the court problems. So I don't see what specific criticisms of Wade we're supposed to mention here. Quadzilla99 03:17, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

• Athletes often play through injury or mild sickness. Is it necessary to point out that in an individual game Dwyane Wade was playing with "intense pain," or with "flu-like symptoms?" Dwyane Wade has a reputation for playing through injuries, and that should be noted in the article. It is not necessary to mention every documented case where this occurred. Also, the use of the word "intense" in itself is excessive. If the pain Dwyane Wade was experiencing while willingly playing a fast-paced, physically demanding game is called intense, what adjective is left to describe the pain felt by a burn victim? Not to mention the fact that nowhere in the cited article (#22) is the pain described as intense.Tamu1876 02:31, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Wade's Myspace

It violates the talk page guidelines to say this, as this isn't a forum but, if this really is Dwyane Wade's myspace page, I thought that people here would find it interesting that he uses Wikipedia for his biography. Not that any of that is notable for the article just interesting. Quadzilla99 05:05, 17 February 2007 (UTC)