Talk:East Bergish
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Concept of East Bergish versus other concepts
[edit]The German reference used in the article is based on few isoglosses. https://bergischplatt.de/wie-men-te-fut-met-der-iserbahn-reist/ is an example of Bergish. https://www.mijnwordsboek.nl/dialect/Tiens is an example of Westgetelands. Both are South Low Franconian according to the definition, but the difference is big. Sarcelles (talk) 15:14, 17 December 2021 (UTC)
- Indeed: bergischplatt.de has an example of "Bergish", which is an ambiguous and variously defined term (cp. Bergish dialects#Classification). As the text from Schöller has ech (= ich, I), it's south of the Uerdingen line and hence not East Bergish (cp. [1]). Which means: It's off-topic for this article. --10:21, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
@Sarcelles: Do we really need a standalone article for a concept that might have a quite impressive web presence due to its use in LVR-related sites, but which essentially goes back to the work of one scholar and which is based on three crude criteria? I fail to see it passes WP:GNG.
In most other sources, East Bergish does not form a unit, nor are its dialects assigned to one larger unit. For Wiesinger (who is not infallible, but at least goes by structural relevant criteria), the northern block of East Bergish can be assigned to the Ripuarian-Low Franconian (or Ripuarian-Low Rhenish) transitional group (= South Low Franconian), while the southeastern dialects all the way to Bergneustadt are grouped as Low German (specifically South Westphalian). Also for Lameli, the most basic structural demarcation cuts right through East Bergish. In other sources, the dialects from Lennep to Neustadt are variously assigned to Westphalian or Low Franconian. But most authors agree that whatever makes them look different from neighboring Ripuarian dialects is of a Westphalian nature (such as the unshifted tenues (exceptionless, thus ik) and the South Westphalian vocalism as in daip 'deep') or Low Franconian (again, unshifted tenues). No one really thinks that they have a special link to Kleverlandish just because they use ik and have 1p and 3p verb endings in -en (actually an Einheitsplural).
I suggests to turn this into a redirect to Bergish dialects, which has a short mention of the LVR classification. –Austronesier (talk) 11:13, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
- Would it be possible to create a kind of disambiguation given that it cuts across different varieties? Sarcelles (talk) 19:37, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
- Well, a disambiguation page in the classic sense seems hard to apply here. Maybe we can focus on two things in this article: first, Cornelissen's concept of Ostbergisch and the crude features that it is based on; second, how these diverse dialects are treated in the extant literature from Wenker to Wiesinger (and Lameli). There is quite much written about the northern dialects of this belt (not only by Wiesinger), but it is much harder to get information about the southern Upper Bergish strip. As mentioned above, Wiesinger assigned them to Low German in spite of the -en-Einheitsplural, and so did Wenker. Frings mapped some isoglosses for the Oberbergisches Land, with data points for Wipperfürth, Gummersbach and Bergneustadt, but did not explicitly classify their dialects as Low Fronconian or Low Saxon. (OR alert: to me they appear like Westphalian (vowels, pronouns like fi 'we', unshifted tenues) with a Ripuarian flavor (velarisation), based on Wipperfürth texts in bergischplatt.de and listening to YouTube videos of platt speakers from Bergneustadt). –Austronesier (talk) 20:41, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
- I support a redirect to Bergish given that it is a doubtful stub. Sarcelles (talk) 22:52, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
- Well, a disambiguation page in the classic sense seems hard to apply here. Maybe we can focus on two things in this article: first, Cornelissen's concept of Ostbergisch and the crude features that it is based on; second, how these diverse dialects are treated in the extant literature from Wenker to Wiesinger (and Lameli). There is quite much written about the northern dialects of this belt (not only by Wiesinger), but it is much harder to get information about the southern Upper Bergish strip. As mentioned above, Wiesinger assigned them to Low German in spite of the -en-Einheitsplural, and so did Wenker. Frings mapped some isoglosses for the Oberbergisches Land, with data points for Wipperfürth, Gummersbach and Bergneustadt, but did not explicitly classify their dialects as Low Fronconian or Low Saxon. (OR alert: to me they appear like Westphalian (vowels, pronouns like fi 'we', unshifted tenues) with a Ripuarian flavor (velarisation), based on Wipperfürth texts in bergischplatt.de and listening to YouTube videos of platt speakers from Bergneustadt). –Austronesier (talk) 20:41, 6 November 2023 (UTC)