Talk:Edward V/Archive 1

Archive 1

Prince of Wales

(For a brief period after his birth and before he was officially given the title, he was one of two living Princes of Wales, the other being the only son of Henry VI of England, who was killed in May, 1471.)

I removed this bit because it's not at all accurate - Prince of Wales isn't a title automatically inherited at birth, it has to be awarded. There certainly can't be two of them, by definition. Edward (V) may have been heir to the throne briefly while Edward of Westminster still claimed the title Prince of Wales, but then the throne itself was still in dispute at the time. sjorford →•← 12:28, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

EastShire

To what land does the title 'Lord of EastShire' attain to? No other King/Queen of England seems to have such a title. Lenzar 21:20, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

New file File:King Edward V from NPG.jpg

Recently the file File:King Edward V from NPG.jpg (right) was uploaded and it appears to be relevant to this article and not currently used by it. If you're interested and think it would be a useful addition, please feel free to include it. Dcoetzee 10:05, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Lambert Simnel

If this material about Lambert Simnel is encyclopedic, it would be better dealt with there than here. PatGallacher (talk) 00:45, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

I would definitely consider Smith's work to be encyclopaedic. The initial webpage I linked the reference to is of course just a webpage, but that in turn links to a full article from the Ricardian, which is a reputable journal (in fact I have a paper copy of the original). And Smith presents a very convincing analysis of the jumble of information available in the original sources, which casts serious doubt on both the real and claimed identities of Simnel. I admit that Smith's argument begins to struggle when it tries to suggest that the real identity of Simnel was actually Edward V, so I would definitely agree that the original mention of the Simnel connection needed a reword. However I do feel that the reasonable chance that he claimed to be Edward V deserves a dozen or so words, out of a thousand, in Edward's article. People can go on to read about Lambert Simnel, they can read Smith's article, and then make their own minds up. What do you (and anyone else who's interested!) think?

Lambert Simnel's page itself would indeed warrant a fuller discussion of Smith's thesis, but really that whole article needs to be overhauled, and I don't know where to start! Currently it presents a largely coherent narrative that simply isn't supported by the aforementioned jumble of primary information (accounts of Simnel are much murkier than those of Warbeck), all based on one non-academic source. Interestingly, I note that Smith's article is the sole reference for the material on Lambert Simnel on the German language Wikipedia, but unfortunately, I can't speak German!

Thank you for taking an interest in this otherwise rather neglected page, and I'll look forward to hearing your thoughts :)

Stephen 81.129.2.220 (talk) 19:59, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Thomas More Account of His Death

I think the article should also include this. It might be an invention, but it also might be the true story about his disappearance. The nndb site states: "According to the narrative of Sir Thomas More, Sir Robert Brackenbury, the constable of the Tower, refused to obey Richard's command to put the young princes to death; but he complied with a warrant ordering him to give up his keys for one night to Sir James Tyrell, who had arranged for the assassination. Two men, Miles Forest and John Dighton, then smothered the youths under pillows while they were asleep. The murder was committed most probably in August or September 1483. Horace Walpole has attempted to cast doubts upon the murder of the princes, and Sir C. R. Markham has argued that the deed was committed by order of King Henry VII. Both these views, however, have been traversed by James Gairdner, and there seems little doubt that Sir Thomas Mores story is substantially correct." I'm not sure about this last statement but I still think this version of what happened should appear in the article.82.154.83.186 (talk) 01:49, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

Date of birth

List of English monarchs says he was born 2 November. This article says 4 November in the lede, and 2 November in the info box. Which is the correct date? -- JackofOz (talk) 23:00, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Come on, guys. We cannot call ourselves a serious encyclopedia if we give him different birthdates in different places in the same article. I have no idea which is correct, but somebody must have some idea. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ...

I've changed the date in the lead ~ it now matches that of the info box. I chose that way because that's the date in the reference i currently have at hand, sitting next to my desk. Happy, Jack? Cheers, Lindsay^Hi 06:01, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Yes, thanks very much, Lindsay. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 08:59, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Possible burial in Windsor Chapel.

I have modified the Article's infobox to include the very salient possibility that Edward V together with his young brother was buried at Windsor with his parents. The 1789 discovery of a "secret vault" adjoining that of Edward IV and Queen Elizabeth Woodville, and containing the coffins of two mysterious, unidentified children, is well documented. The tomb was resealed without the childrens' coffins being examined, as the authorities at the time assumed the remains to be those of George and Mary Plantagenet, two of Edward IV's other children, who were known to have been buried in the Chapel but whose graves were lost. However in 1817 their remains were discovered elsewhere in the Chapel. The 1789 discovery is mentioned in the Article, together with all the references. I have also amended the date of death, as there is no evidence to single out the given date (6 July 1483) beyond the fact that that was Richard III's coronation date. October 1483 is, and for many reasons always was, a more likely date. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.161.207.211 (talk) 00:08, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

Unprofessional Edits to the Article

Somebody has edited the Article to say the likely date of Edward's death was 29 July 1483. However there is no evidence whatsoever for this date and the editor provides none. The same editor has also stated that the place of death was the Tower of London (in reality nobody knows) and the burial place to be Westminster Abbey; again nobody knows. This is not professional; certainly not to the standards of Wilkipedia. I have corrected the faults. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.45.92.102 (talk) 22:54, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

Uncrowned monarchs

Lady Jane Grey as an uncrowned Queen of England? --Wetman (talk) 12:34, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree that Wikipedia ought not contain statements that Lady Jane Grey was legally, unambiguously, and without qualification, Queen, without some kind of footnote or "purported" or anything. See my addition to the Talk Page for Lady Jane Grey.64.131.188.104 (talk) 13:12, 13 February 2008 (UTC)Christopher L. Simpson

But what about her DNA...? Basket _Feudalist 20:54, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

Oh look, it's our new friend, editing from a different IP. I wonder how many other alter egos he has? Deb (talk) 22:42, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

Protectorate?

Could someone please clarify what is meant by the term "protectorate" as used in the section about his reign? It seems to indicate some higher form of regency for very young infants but when I look up "protectorate" the only 2 examples I can really find are protectorates in the international legal sense and the Protectorate Period of English history which has nothing to do with any regencies. 123.243.215.92 (talk) 11:55, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

I think it means that Edward IV left England in the care of a "Lord Protector", ie. his brother Richard. Deb (talk) 12:55, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

It was a form of regency, whereby the Lord Protector exercised the powers of the Crown on behalf of an under-age king, but it seems to have always caused problems for all concerned. Edward III's mother and her lover exercised power until Edward was old enough to overthrow them; Richard II's obvious Lord Protector would have been John of Gaunt but fears of him usurping the throne mean that he was not given the title. Henry VI's uncles shared the powers - Bedford as Regent and Gloucester as Protector - until Bedford's death but that resulted in rivalries. The Plantagenet monarchy was so much based round the power of the king that it never really worked out a satisfactory way of dealing with an under-age king - and indeed the struggle between Seymour and Dudley in the reign of Edward VI suggests the Tudors were also unable to solve the problem. RGCorris (talk) 15:11, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

Ludicrous

The article stated that Edward V died in 1483, and had a category "1483 deaths" despite several RS stating that this is unclear, and the date is unknown. I(and others) removed anything that didn't have a WP:RS, and made it non-OR and non-NPOV. An editor User:Lugnuts made seven edits in less than 48 hours, restoring unsourced information. He/she then requested this article be protected, which it was with the unsourced information intact. Except it's semi-protected, and User:Lugnuts then made his/her eighth disruptive edit, adding a totally unsourced piece of nonsense, that actually contradicts various properly sourced statements in the article itself [1]! 41.133.0.152 (talk) 15:49, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

Please WP:AGF and stop with the personal attacks. This version has been restored before a wave of IP vandalism hit the page in recent days. If you think the categories are incorrect, then please gain a consensus to so. Thanks. Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 17:38, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

It's not "a wave of IP vandalism". It's different people(including me) removing unsourced and OR material. And then you restoring the material without proper tags, breaking the WP:3RR. Followed by the article being semi-protected with the unsourced material intact. And then you making another edit, adding even more unsourced material. It's difficult to WP:AGF under those circumstances. As far as consensus, your "wave of IP vandalism" indicates people agreeing on the postition I take, whereas you and you alone support eh unsourced position. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.132.179.212 (talk) 04:17, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

Well you're blocked now, so I guess I stand by my "wave of IP vandalism" comment. Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 07:59, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

OR in categories, and in main article

Someone has persistently added "1483" to the first paragraph, as well as the information box. And then added "1483 deaths" to categories. He/she has cited that some references in the article state this. However, more references state that the date is unknown. So, if some sources state one thing, while many others dispute this, how can Wikipedia use this one set of dates as definitive? I replaced these with a question mark, but one editor ruthlessly reinstated the POV/OR dates. Worse, the article was locked, and he/she then went further, adding the category "1483" deaths! Certainly the article needs to maintain a Neutral Point Of View, and using User:Lugnuts's edits is taking one side...the very definition of POV, and far from consensus, either on Wikipedia or with historians? A NPOV needs to be maintained, and therefore User:Lugnuts's one-sided POV edits must be undone, or Wikipedia becomes a propaganda tool.41.132.179.212 (talk) 04:55, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

"Believed by some to be c.1483" is tautology, to say the least. A huge majority of historians, and most other people, believe the date of Edward's death to be 1483. The fact that you have placed it in the category of 1480s deaths suggests that you also believe it to be somewhere in the same decade. Thus to estimate it at c.1483 is as valid as any other estimated death or birth date in any other wikipedia biography article, more so than most. Deb (talk) 12:58, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

No, even "1480s deaths" is still OR. but a persistent editor seems to think that's better. The reality is we don't know. Saying he was last seen alive in 1483 may be best. And we could go on pulling up historians claiming different dates. The point is Wikipedia needs to be fair and balanced, and maintain a WP:NPOV. In that case even "c. 1483" is biased. 41.132.179.212 (talk) 13:35, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

If it's a generally-accepted probability, it can't be said to be biased. I think you're taking this to extremes. Deb (talk) 15:28, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

A)Do you have any RS that it's "generally accepted"? Yes, you can find RS that state he died c 1483, but I can find RS that dispute that. Saying it's "generally accepted" is OR at best. And "probability"? So you're NOT saying it's a fact, you're saying it's probable. I agree it's probable, but Wikipedia articles are not written based on probabilities, they are written based on verified sources. I am not taking anything to an extreme. Merely saying that his date of death is unknown, but that some historians claim a 1483 date would be NPOV. As it stands now, it is very much biased in favour of some historians, based on nothing more than a probability. 41.132.179.212 (talk) 15:36, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

Almost all historians agree that he died shortly after his last recorded appearance in public - this is easily verified from the references quoted in the article. However, even those who don't agree that he was killed by Richard III tend to think that he died before 1486. The balance of probability is therefore quite clearly in favour of the estimated date shown. Many of our biography articles, in keeping with those of other encyclopedias, estimate a date as "circa" based on the last date the subject was recorded as being alive. We could, I suppose, use "after July 1483" if you think that is less "biased". Deb (talk) 15:44, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

The point is that there is no consensus on when he died. And again, simply going by what is cited so far in now way means "most historians"! "1480's" would be better. "c.1483-1486" would be better. neither would be ideal, but it's better than saying "!483" or "c. 1483", because in this case those three years are extraordinarily significant. 41.132.179.212 (talk) 16:17, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

"1480's" would be better." You mean like my edit before you went on your revert campaign that got you blocked? And there's no apostrophe in "1480s". Now go back to trolling the Whoniverse article. Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 19:07, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

Oh, there absolutely is consensus on the likelihood that he died shortly after he was last seen alive. Consensus doesn't mean universal agreement, it means general agreement. Deb (talk) 16:22, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

There is anything but consensus on that, which is why these discussions recur from time to time without any possibility of resolution - unless at some point the bones in Westminster Abbey are made available for DNA testing. Until that is done - and then only if they turn out to belong to Edward & Richard - there can never be consensus on the year and nature of their deaths. RGCorris (talk) 17:38, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

I'm very surprised that you think that. Yes, there is a large and noisy minority who don't believe the princes ever died, but there is certainly a substantial majority view that they died in 1483 or shortly afterwards, even if there is doubt as to who was responsible. Deb (talk) 12:05, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

A) Can you provide any sort of verification that a "substantial majority" view things a certain way? B) Do you agree that many qualified expert historians(whether they be a "noisy minority" or not) dispute this view that you claim the "substantial majority" hold? 41.132.179.212 (talk) 15:29, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

A. Yes, have a look at the Princes in the Tower article for those who believe the Princes were murdered. B. I can't actually think of any qualified expert historians, certainly not historians of the period, who dispute the view. Deb (talk) 15:50, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

Your comment about a "large and noisy minority who don't believe the princes ever died" is obvious nonsense - there is, however, a widespread view that there are insufficient facts to take a definitive position on whether and when they died in the Tower, and if they did, whether it was from foul play or illness; there is also a view in some quarters that Perkin Warbeck really was Richard of Shrewsbury. As I have already said, the only way the truth will out now, over 500 years later, is if the bones in the Abbey are proved beyond reasonable doubt to be those of Edward and Richard. Unless and until that happens, making dogmatic claims based on hearsay and Tudor propaganda does not get us anywhere nearer an accurate encyclopaedic entry. RGCorris (talk) 22:06, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

Wow, what a biased blanket statement! Whatever may be proved as a result of the testing of bones in the abbey, it is extremely unlikely that the date of death can be established. Yes, there is a view that Perkin Warbeck really was Richard of Shrewsbury, but that's quite irrelevant to the fate of Edward V, which is what this article is concerned with. There are all kinds of "views", widespread or otherwise; but do remember that most of these alternative theories are mutually exclusive. Nevertheless, it remains a majority view among historians that Edward V died shortly after he was last seen, ie. in the second half of 1483, and that is quite enough to justify using either "c.1483" or "after July 1483". Deb (talk) 11:14, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

Subjecting the bones in the Abbey to modern forensic tests would (a) be able to prove whether they were Edward & Richard from DNA analysis and (b) be able to establish their age at death to within a year or so. Anyway, no-one disputes that both Edward and Richard died "after July 1483" which would be a perfectly acceptable formula to use in this article. However, if "Perkin Warbeck" was really Richard of Shrewsbury, it is obviously relevant to the possible fate of Edward V, as it would demonstrate that the Tudor story of both princes being murdered in the Tower was incorrect. Sadly, as Warbeck's bones are no longer locatable, that cannot be proved either way. RGCorris (talk) 18:23, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

Having different viewpoints shows that there is no consensus. Again, you have nothing that WP:V your claim about it remains a majority view among historians. You can say that. You can also provide Sources, just as anyone can provide sources saying something to the contrary. Thus, neither can legitimately be said to be "a majority view". And "after July 1483" could mean anything. Thus, it needs to be reworded to say that some historians believe he may have died in 1483, while others (and far from a tiny minority) believe otherwise. Ultimately, nobody knows when or under what circumstances Edward died, and even "c.1483" can not possibly be stated with any certainty. Sure, one person may provide a source from a historian saying just that, but then someone else can provide an equally valid source from another historian disputing that. There is no consensus, and nobody can realistically or reasonably claim any "majority view". Wikipedia must maintain a WP:NPOV, and for that reason stating Edward's date of death with any sort of certainty, even a "c. 1483", is totally inappropriate for Wikipedia. 41.132.179.212 (talk) 12:44, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

Can't we say something like, Unknown (presumed c. 1483)? Bill the Cat 7 (talk) 13:25, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

What the heck. I'll just be bold. Bill the Cat 7 (talk) 14:58, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

I can't imagine that will satisfy our anon contributor. Yes, there is a definite and substantial majority of historians who agree that the balance of probability is that Edward died or was killed shortly after he and his brother were last seen alive in public. This includes David Baldwin, even though he believes Richard survived. Others who agree on this are David Starkey, Alison Weir, Michael Hicks, Paul Murray Kendall, James Gairdner, Maurice Keen and Helen Castor. Even John Ashdown-Hill doesn't dispute this. I actually can't think of any historian who believes that the elder prince survived beyond the start of Henry VII's reign. The statement "Having different viewpoints shows that there is no consensus" would be factually incorrect even if the sentence were grammatical. The existence of different viewpoints does not show that there is no consensus any more than the fact that lots of people think Francis Bacon wrote the works of Shakespeare shows that there is no consensus as to who actually did write them. Deb (talk) 15:34, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

←-------

I'm coming to this talk late in the day, but I do want to point out something as regards accuracy and encyclopedic writing. First a disclaimer: I have no problem with Edward V and his brothers death date being listed as "Unknown (presumably ca. 1483)" which seems to cover all opinions given the lack of evidence.

But that is actually what any historian consensus is in this case - opinion. The fact is that we don't know if Edward V died at age 12, 62, or 102. It's all conjecture based on when he was last seen by reliable witnesses coupled with the actions of those who might or might not have been involved in his death, if he died during this period.

But I do wonder: why was the disappearance of these two boys not treated in the Infobox as exactly that - a disappearance? Looking at other Wikipedia articles of people who have disappeared (start with Judge Crater and Amelia Earhart for example), no death date is listed at all in their infobox, not even "Unknown." Instead, a date of Disappearance is listed (which for the two Princes would be After Jul 1483). The other articles go on to give a Status that gives a date when they were declared legally dead; in the case of Edward V and Richard of Shrewsbury we cannot give such.

Circa dates are tricky buggers. As a genealogist I have learned not to give a circa date unless I have bookend dates, showing that the event must have happened after X date and before Y date; if I can show a person was on a tax list in 1860 and that his wife is listed in a court document as a widow in 1862, then I have my bookend dates and can safely say that his death occurred circa 1861. With the Princes, we have only one bookend - when they were last seen alive.

As I said, I have no real beef with the way the infobox is currently edited, but I write this for the sake of hopefully avoiding any future lengthy argument - to say that in an encyclopedia, until more solid evidence comes to light, the best we can truthfully say is the date of death for Edward V and his brother is Unknown if we are not going to list them as Disappeared. Beyond that, even the best historian is conjecturing. It may be considered good conjecture, it may agree with the conjecture or many or most historians. But it is still conjecture.

History Lunatic (talk) 07:51, 25 December 2014 (UTC)History Lunatic

Not crowned

"Along with Edward VIII and Lady Jane Grey, Edward V is one of only three British monarchs never to have been crowned." Can't be true. There is few others too --Tbonefin 17:32, 13 September 2006 (UTC).

...and they are...? --King Hildebrand 15:24, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

• Edgar Atheling was King of England for two months in 1066, but never crowned.
• Matilda was Lady of the English for a few months in 1141, but never crowned.

So that has answered your question, King Hildebrand. Deaþe gecweald 12:47, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

I think a more pressing issue is that he's referred to as a British Monarch. Britain didn't exist as anything more than a geographical concept in 1483.

- CharlieRCD —Preceding unsigned comment added by CharlieRCD (talk • contribs) 16:05, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

As an alternative to removing uncrowned monarchs only of England from a "British" list, you could add all of the uncrowned monarchs of Scotland (before the U.K.) to the list. It would then include all uncrowned British monarchs.64.131.188.104 (talk) 13:12, 13 February 2008 (UTC)Christopher L. Simpson

The part about uncrowned monarchs is problematic in that it places Edward V and Edward VIII, who though never crowned were both undoubtedly King for a time, with Matilda and Lady Jane Grey, who were never truly Queens. Most every textbook, and even the British monarchy website, simply lists Stephen as King from 1135-1154; simply because Matilda temporarily got the upper hand in the was known as the Anarchy does not mean she was truly queen. Additionally, Mary I is listed as succeeding Edward VI; once again, just because some tried to make her queen does not mean the nine days when they tried meant she was truly queen. To give these two ladies the same place in history as Edward V and Edward VIII, who were truly King and accepted as such, is simply misleading.

" Edward V .... who were truly King... " Edward V never reigned, ruled or had a coronation. His claim to the throne is doubtful. In fact, the only reason why he is listed is because of Tudor propaganda. 162.93.199.11 (talk) 17:46, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

'On a technicality' - what about the "Kings of Mann"? Jackiespeel (talk) 09:53, 2 May 2015 (UTC)

Was he ever actually King?

"Edward V" seems to be something of an anomaly. Past and future de facto monarchs such as Louis(1216) and Jane Grey are generally not included in Lists of English monarchs. Furthermore, he never appears to have even been a de facto King. Likewise, the Titulus Regius declared that he had never actually been King. It is only the Tudor revisionism and styling Henry VIII's son "Edward VI" that meant there then had to have been an "Edward V". In addition even if Richard III did "usurp" the throne, why do we not then recognise Arthur I, Duke of Brittany as ever having been King? When Richard I died, Arthur WAS next in line, yet the crown went to John. The major difference is that when Edward IV died, the throne went to Richard because the so-called "Edward V" was illegitimate, AS A BILL PASSED BY PARLIAMENT CONFIRMED. Arthur was clearly legitimate. Yet Arthur is not listed as a Monarch but Edward IV's bastard son IS? And if he was legitimate, would it not be possible that he died before his brother, in which case his brother would be "Richard III", and Richard III be "Richard IV"? had Richard III's son survived, and Richard III won Bosworth, his son would certainly be styled "Edward V". Likewise, had the Yorkists won the Battle of Stoke, then Warwick would have become "Edward V" also. "King Edward V" is Tudor revisionist fiction. 137.158.152.213 (talk) 11:54, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

Furthermore, if someone states that he was King(which he wasn't), then Titulus Regius would have to follow the precedent set by the Treaty of Lambeth which stated that Louis have never been the Rightful King, hence his actual de facto reign being erased. There is also the case of Edgar The Aetheling who was a King who even held Parliament, yet is not generally recognised due to the circumstances of his reign(which DID exist). or Matilda's reign not being recognised. Yet "Edward V"'s reign is recognised. Why? Simply because the next King Edward of England was made to style himself "Edward VI"? 137.158.152.213 (talk) 12:01, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

We go by what reliable sources have to say. Where are your sources saying he wasn't king, or is this just something that belongs on a forum but not on this talk page? If there is a dispute among scholars, then ok, but otherwise... Dougweller (talk) 12:16, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

He was King from 9th April 1483 until 25th June 1483, in that during that period no-one else in England claimed the throne. Edgar, Matilda, Arthur, Louis and Jane were all opposed by other claimants from the death of the previous monarch. RGCorris (talk) 12:29, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

But according to the current lede, Edward V's life could have ended as far back as April 1483. So, when was the last date he was definitely known to still be alive? -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 08:51, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Louis VIII of France is assimiliar, since he whilst he claimed the throne of England, it always had a physical occupant recognised by the nobility (John, then Henry). But with your other examples, Jane and Edward, the reason, like so much, is political: it was impossible to for Mary to call Jane Queen without drawing her own claim to the throne in doubt; and likewise, it did suit Henry VII to have Edward as a predecessor, because in his case, Edward being a previous monarch did not weaken Henry's position, but rather strengthened it. _Muffled ^Pocketed 15:53, 11 June 2016 (UTC)

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Where is the evidence for attributing the death of the princes to Richard III?

All sources attributing the deaths of the princes, seem to be based on rumour alone. Should this article and any discussions of the deaths of princes leave the identity of the murderer/s an open one? Freedom1968 (talk) 21:52, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

Now that Richard III's last resting place and mortal remains have been discovered, it would also be fitting to put an end to the speculation over the fate of the "Princes in the Tower" and the accusation that Richard had them murdered. An analysis of the "bones" of the princes found in Charles II's day, and a finding that they are not the bones, or that only one of them is (Edward V), could only help to restore the reputation of that much maligned King. Though this is not the place to discuss who was the murderer, I think the ruthlessness of such an act is more probably attributed to another King, Henry Tudor (i.e Henry VII) who had much more to gain than Richard by doing away with them. Henry's treatment of the pretender "Perkin Warbeck" has always puzzled me and could it be that Warbeck really was who he claimed to be? Were it possible to find some of Warbeck's bones and DNA test them the issue would be settled.

We have seen the history books rewritten once, is there a greater rewritting due? Freedom1968 (talk) 21:59, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

Unfortunately it seems that "Warbeck"'s last resting place was in a site that was extensively damaged in World War Two. Even if his bones could be identified and he was proved to be a nephew of Richard III by DNA analysis, that would still not prove that he was Richard of Shrewsbury - he could equally well have been an illegitimate son of Edward IV.

The only thing that is currently certain about the fate of the Princes is that they are not known to have been seen after the summer of 1483. Anything else is speculation, including whether they were murdered, and if so, on whose orders. Hopefully at some stage the bones in the Abbey can be re-analysed, although that may have to wait for a change of monarch RGCorris (talk) 13:16, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

Michael Hicks. You got yourself some competition.Basket _Feudalist 09:46, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

"the ruthlessness of such an act is more probably attributed to another King, Henry Tudor (i.e Henry VII) who had much more to gain than Richard by doing away with them". Talk about subjective! And Richard, not ruthless? Tell that to Hastings, Rivers and Richard Grey, all of whom ehe executed without trial. Deb (talk) 13:36, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Richard was a pussycat compared with Henry Tudor. If you want confirmation of what a sinister and creepy man he was, have a read of Thomas Penn's excellent book "Winter King - The Dawn of Tudor England". Ruthless? well par for the course with late medieval Kings, but at least he acted in the interests of the state. And at least Richard had a personality! Freedom1968 (talk) 18:01, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

The whole issue here (and therfore why it does not merit inclusion in an encyclopaedia) of so-called ruthlessness is completely subjective. Although, in terms of numbers, you are quite correct; Tudor and his son judicially murdered the remnants of an entire dynasty, for the same 'interests of the state'. It's true that no-one can pprove he did murder the lil' princes in the Taahr, but no-one can prove either that he did not, and this is not the place for proving a negative! Or otherwise of course. Good luck! Basket _Feudalist 18:14, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

I've heard Thomas Penn speak and I've got the book. Henry was certainly a pragmatist, which is pretty much what Richard was. But if you have two suspects for a crime, one of whom was overseas when the victims "disappeared" and the other of whom was on the spot and had easy access to them and ultimate responsibility for their physical security, how can anyone possibly say that the former is "more probably" guilty? Deb (talk) 19:22, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

I think it's pragmatism again when you're "editorial director at Penguin Books UK [and hold] a Ph.D. in medieval history from Clare College, Cambridge University, and writes for the Guardian, the Daily Telegraph, and the London Review of Books" etc etc, you can probably say whatever you fffffff'ing like!!! ("LOL", etc) Basket _Feudalist 19:39, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

I just ordered Penn's book last week (on a whim) but it won't be available in the U.S. until March 12th or so. Can someone tell me if the book is worth reading or should I just donate it to the local library? Bill the Cat 7 (talk) 21:23, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

I can confirm that it is definately worth the read, particulary if you are not already acquainted with the life of Henry VII! Freedom1968 (talk) 22:31, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

The only near comtemporary "evidence" of the killer is provided by Thomas More's suggestion that it was Sir James Tyrell wot done the dirty deed, But that seems too neat an explanation. Indeed it seems like another piece of nasty Tudor propaganda, something Shakespeare encouraged in his play.

No one knew what happened to the princes; those who did or might have were dead after 1485. The princes may have been dead by end of Richard's reign, but evidence of the length of time other important prisoners were kept in the Tower of London suggests they could have quite feasbibly and probably did remain there with very few people being given access.

Think "Basket" summing up of Thomas Penn's, not fair. It is a good piece of research worth credit.

Freedom1968 (talk) 22:57, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

I wasn't really reviewing the book (obviously, as I haven't read it), it was more a review of the author (A thoroughly nice bloke, but prone to sweeping visions of history). Basket _Feudalist 13:05, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

The book got very good reviews and I was impressed with him when he spoke at CVHF last year. However, he certainly doesn't suggest that Henry Tudor was "creepy". What he does is to examine Henry's life in more detail and look at what made him tick, showing that he was a much more interesting character than is popularly imagined. Henry and Richard in fact had quite similar childhoods - Henry was fatherless and Richard's father died when he was quite young. Both spent some time in exile on the continent and didn't have a lot of contact with their mothers (who were both strong characters). Both had reason to be suspicious of other people's motives and to worry about their hold on the throne.

Good old Richard, what a nice man - didn't kill his nephews, just kept them locked up for years where no one could see them. His big mistake was not producing them after his own son died - that would have put paid to Henry's chances of popular support. Funny he never thought of it. Deb (talk) 08:43, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Henry VII kept Clarence's son Edward, Earl of Warwick (who, if the sons of Edward IV were either dead or illegitimate, was the rightful heir) locked up in the Tower for over a decade before executing him on a pretence so that his son's Spanish marriage could go ahead. I wonder how often during those years Warwick's continuing existence was confirmed by reliable historians ? RGCorris (talk) 11:41, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

As far as I know, the only time he was brought out of the Tower was in 1487, in order to prove that Lambert Simnel wasn't him. Your argument seems to be that, because Henry VII did some bad things, it was okay for Richard III to do bad things - yet Henry was a BAD person and Richard was a GOOD person. Have I summed that up correctly? Deb (talk) 12:53, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

No, I think you're confusing what RGCorris has been saying with that of Freedom1968 (a scion of Essex University, perhaps?!). I think the point about Warwick's imprisonment RGC was making was the fact that when imprisoned, there were rarely records kept on them. The most common primary sources all of a sudden wouldn't apply; governemnt documents (wouldn't need to mention them), personal letters (possibly banned from sending or receiving them) and household accounts (well, you didn't have much of a household in the Tower!). And the only other common record of someone's life was so often their death- a record of their will being proven, or burial costs from somewhere. In other words- it is perfectly usual for there to be no positive record of a prisoner until his death. The question then, of course, is if the risoner didn't die- what record could have existed? Any I think that's what he means by 'existence confirmed by reliable historians'. Basket _Feudalist 13:03, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Deb suggested that R3 should have "produced" the Princes after the death of R3's son. My point is that, although there are no reliable reports of them being alive in the two years after the autumn of 1483, there may well be periods equally lengthy during Warwick's imprisonment when there were no reliable reports of him being alive. If, say, "Warbeck" had succeeded in overthrowing Henry VII and then arranged for Warwick to quietly vanish, blaming his death on Henry VII, would there have been any evidence to gainsay the story ? No-one knows what happened to Edward IV's sons - whereas Warwick's fate is known. RGCorris (talk) 13:18, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Think we should bear in mind folks, that Dick 3's reign lasted for just over 2 years. That is a very short space of time to accomplish the "murder" of two young lads, kill one rival for the throne (Buckingham), prepare youself to fight off another one (Henry), and then get to grips with ruling a complicated state like England, is it not?

Not being able to show them later like Warwick, would not necessarily mean he had had them killed. Dick's problem was that having declared them illegit he was going to have to think up a "cunning plan" to re-legit them if he couldn't hump his lady wife Anne Neville enough to produce another heir. Sadly for him, she died before he had his chance and with everything else on his shoulders (no offence meant), he didn't have time to find another suitable lady to continue his line, unlike Edward IV who was clearly capable of shagging every woman in sight.

Knowing Ed IV's reputation for spreading it around and producing numerous "love children", you could fully understand that Uncle Dick might have harboured legit doubts that the two boys where in the same league. If he killed them, why did he not start exterminating the rest of the "love child" brood? After all one pretender is as good as the next?

"Basket" you think I am a scion of Uni of Essex? Ho ho ho, if only you knew the truth....! Re creepy Henry. Well Thom doesn't say that I admit, but it is an impression I get by reading about Henry. Each to their own. Freedom1968 (talk) 23:13, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Seriously? How long does it take to bump off a couple of children? About 5 minutes, I'd say. I'm not of course suggesting Richard carried out the murders personally; he may have specifically ordered it, or he may have done a "turbulent priest" act. Whatever the answer, he knew that there were rumours he had killed the princes, so why wouldn't he have shown them in public? The answer to the question of legitimising them is easy, as the precedent had been set with the Beauforts. Either Richard or Henry could have legitimised them in retrospect whilst specifically excluding them from the succession, but Richard also had the option of making them his heirs, which would have removed any reason for Elizabeth Woodville to support Henry. After all, he did make the Earl of Warwick his heir, and Warwick thus had a claim on the throne superior to Richard's own. Deb (talk) 11:53, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

It is usually believed that Richard named his sister's son John, Earl of Lincoln, as his heir after the death of the Prince of Wales, not his brother's son, Edward, Earl of Warwick. RGCorris (talk) 12:00, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

It's true, there are conflicting reports of what happened after his son's death. Deb (talk) 12:11, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Freedom1968 said, "...if he couldn't hump his lady wife Anne Neville enough to produce another heir." You're such a romantic.  :) Bill the Cat 7 (talk) 14:58, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

I think this has turned into a "street cred" competition! Deb (talk) 15:25, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Bill the Cat 7 realise this is hard to believe from my delicate way of describing royal relationships, but I am quite a romantic actually! I think it is generally accepted that romance in those days was all about power politics and marrying the right bit of property! But it is true that Edward IV was a uncontrolled lothario, hence everybody's surprise (and outrage) when he got himself hitched to Elizabeth Woodville - and her grasping family.

Deb understand your points, which are quite fair. The one that bothers me is why Dick 3 didn't show the princes if they were still alive. I think the answer lies in the point you made about Warwick being shown by Henry VII to prove that the pretender Lambert was a phoney. Lambert was by all accounts a very unconvincing pretender and Henry VII probably realised that he was not taking any risks in showing that Warwick was still alive. Lambert of course ended his days as a kitchen boy in Henry's household, which says it all.

Warbeck on the other hand was a very different kettle of fish. Warbeck was a convincing pretender. If the princes were dead by then presenting Warbeck as an imposter should have been quite simple. But if one of them still lived then presenting Warbeck to prove this would have caused serious problems. Henry treated Warbeck quite well at first, but after an attempted escape put an end to him. Why treat him so well if he was just a common imposter? after all he humiliated Lambert? Was he perhaps as previously suggested a real illegit son of Ed IV or was he the real thing? If the former it was judicial murder, if the later it was not just murder but regicide! Freedom1968 (talk) 21:21, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

If "Warbeck" was really Richard of Shrewsbury, he may have arguably been the rightful King (although as the son of a bigamous marriage that could be questioned) but he was not actually a crowned monarch. Ergo his execution was not regicide, any more than was that of Edward Earl of Warwick (who was indisputably the rightful King in the direct line of male descent if "Warbeck" was an imposter or illegitimate). Both "Warbeck" and Warwick were the victims of Henry VII's desire for a Spanish marriage for his heir, and the reluctance of the Spanish monarchs to agree while the Tudor throne was still threatened by those with better claims. RGCorris (talk) 00:01, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

RGC,I personally doubt that Ed IV was bigamous. Most commentators think that Dick 3 made up the story of Ed IV's Marriage/legally binding promise to marry to Lady Butler, in order to justify his (Dick 3's) "usurption" of the crown. Certainly no contemporaries seem to think Ed IV's marriage to the delightful Elizabeth Woodwille was bigamous. It wasn't bigamy which upset them, what they were outraged at was that the Woodvilles were "commoners" hence they felt Ed IV was marrying below his station. In later times this would be called a "Morganatic Marriage". Such marriages meant that the children would not inherit their father's title i.e King. However whilst on the continent this was not unknown, in England it was, so this rule would not have applied.

On the question of Ed V not being a crowned monarch, this is not a problem. In the UK when one monarch dies the next takes over so there is no interregnum. The Crowning of a UK monarch is the formal assumption of their sacred status, but they are undeniably Monarch even before that. Ed VIII famously for instance was King even though he was never crowned, and nobody is going to suggest he wasn't are they?

Interestingly a couple of years ago Channel 4 produced a programme hosted by Tony Robinson of Time Team, which appeared to put doubt on the legitimacy of Ed V by producing evidence from a register in a French Catherdral (forget which one it was), showing that Ed V's baptism was not celebrated in the normal manner an heir would be. Working back from the date of the baptism they would able to calculate that Ed IV could not have conceived the child as he wasn't around at the time! Richard's baptism was recorded joyfully and followed by all the usual public celebrations. The conclusion? Ed V not legit and Richard was...

If that was the case, then Ed V was not the true kng but the younger brother Richard was. It is then easier to understand why the "pretender" Warbeck, was so much more dangerous to Henry VII. If Henry had been under the impression that both princes were dead or if he thought he had killed both the appearance of Warbeck would have been deeply probablmatic.

All that said, like many of the comentators, noone at of the end of the day really knows the sequence of events. A start could be made by testing the bones of the "princes" found in the tower in Chas II's day. But do we really want to know the truth, a good unsolved mystery can keep us all tapping away on our keyboards for life? Or should we all get a "life"?

Freedom1968 (talk) 08:01, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

You are confused - the Robinson programme questioned the legitimacy of Edward IV, on the grounds that his father Richard Duke of York was away on campaign at the time his wife Cicely conceived.

The evidence of the pre-contract with Lady Eleanor Butler, as witnessed by Bishop Stillington, was sufficient to convince people at the time, and certainly fits in with the character of Edward IV.

The Woodvilles were not commoners; Elizabeth's father was made an earl and a Knight of the Garter and her mother was the widow of the king's brother and the daughter of a French count. They could, perhaps, be seen as nouveau riche, although no more so than the Tudors. RGCorris (talk) 15:40, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

Ah, so many questions we will never know the answers to. I believe many historians agree that Warbeck was "planted" in the Tower (rather than being executed straight away) as a way of getting Warwick to participate in a treasonous plot that would give Henry an excuse to get rid of both of them whilst preserving an appearance of leniency. It would be interesting to find out who the bones found in the Tower belonged to, but, even if they were found to be those of the princes, it would hardly prove who killed them. I tend to think it would point the finger at Richard (or at least at them having been murdered soon after they went into the Tower) because, if they just died of natural causes, they would have done so at different times and would probably not have been buried together. As far as "rightful" monarchs go, though, you can go back a lot further (or come closer to the present day) and find plenty of examples of doubtful antecendents that would threaten the present Queen's rightful tenure of the throne. The fact that Henry Tudor had no good claim to the throne is why he claimed it by right of conquest, thus hoping to make such arguments irrelevant. (Evidently this didn't work!) Deb (talk) 11:02, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

Just to clarify - "commoners" in terms of the English royal family does not mean people without a title, it means people who aren't members of the royal family. Thus Diana, Princess of Wales, was a commoner before her marriage, even though she had a title. And of course, there is no surviving evidence for the pre-contract with Eleanor Butler, nor any evidence that people were convinced by the testimony of the anonymous priest believed to be Stillington. Deb (talk) 18:53, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

Elizabeth Woodville was a direct descendant of King John (which might explain a lot ;-) RGCorris (talk) 19:23, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I know quite a few people who can prove they are descended from various monarchs! :-) Unfortunately all the ones I know are commoners - so much for any hopes of using my influence. Certain members of the Woodville family were elevated to the nobility, but Elizabeth remained a commoner until she married Edward. Deb (talk) 19:26, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

RGC, I am going to put my hands up here. Re the Robinson programme you are indeed correct, it was Edward IV. I have a full plate of egg on my face and will eat lots of humble pie tonight! I can only claim in my self defence that not having seen the programme and only been told about it by a family member I assumed what I had heard was correct. I think the excitement of this debate temporarily dropped my guard over checking sources, which of course any good investigator should do!

That said I still think that Henry VII was spooked by Warbeck and that Warbeck's execution was not simply to get rid of Warwick as well. Shall we start a petition to get those old bones tested? Freedom1968 (talk) 20:54, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

By the way if you are interested there is another interesting mystery strand on the Edward II page about Edward IIs "death" Freedom1968 (talk) 21:01, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

It's been centuries since the deed was done, by whoever really done it. It's unlikely we'll ever know the truth and to say otherwise is assuming. For the sake of neutrality, to provide neither a Tudor nor a York bias, the best thing to say is that both Richard III and Henry VIi had the same motives. The princes stood in the way of either getting the throne. Henry VII could have been telling the truth or he may have wanted his predecessor demonised. We will simply never know the full truth, so just say it was in the interest of both sides the princes needed to die. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:8003:35A4:1900:A4FB:2536:E8ED:1774 (talk) 23:15, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

References

Proposal to change reign dates

Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_English_Royalty#Reign_dates Jhood1 (talk) 17:15, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

Here are some sources for Edward V reign ending 25 Jun 1483:

• Handbook of British Chronology (Fryde et al) p.42
• Handbook of Dates (Cheney) p. 37

Jhood1 (talk) 20:54, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

Dictes and Sayings of the Philosophers

Reference the image beneath the court of Edward IV, is there clear indication that the image of the boy is indeed crown prince Edward V? Might this be his brother, Richard of Shrewsbury? By sickly appearing features to a boy with regalia in hand "later," it would seem as if a changeling is murdered off by pre-industrial precept within the royal family. Already like circumstances to land upon Edward of Lancaster.

D. L. Ashliman points out in his essay 'Changelings' that changeling tales illustrate an aspect of family survival in pre-industrial Europe. A peasant family's subsistence frequently depended upon the productive labor of each member, and it was difficult to provide for a person who was a permanent drain on the family's scarce resources. "The fact that the changelings' ravenous appetite is so frequently mentioned indicates that the parents of these unfortunate children saw in their continuing existence a threat to the sustenance of the entire family. Changeling tales support other historical evidence in suggesting that infanticide was frequently the solution selected.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Changeling#Description

One is free to judge by the circumstance of biography. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.91.221.150 (talk) 18:53, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

Sorry, can't understand what you are trying to say. Deb (talk) 20:16, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

Attempt to read Early Life section of this article for yourself. Yours truly.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_V_of_England#Early_life

"Simple charms, such as an inverted coat or open iron scissors or luminaries left where the child sleeps, were thought to ward them off; other measures included a constant watch over the child."

To understand that the goblins of French lore are a linguistic form of ghosts, the apparitions of the brothers, sons of Edward IV are said to recur in the Tower of London by knowledge of the history.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2549594/mum-claims-tower-of-london-snap-ghost-edward-v/

One facade which tends to appear assumed to be Edward V, if Richard of Shrewbury.

Would these two individuals beneath one persona even be the same person?

What is the very meaning of a stylized representation of an older boy bearing regalia? Merely appears a sickly specimen which falls beneath known descriptions of a sighted fairy changelings, need the image of a younger boy beneath a father's court contrast. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.91.221.150 (talk) 00:08, 22 December 2018 (UTC)

Sorry, can't understand what you are talking about. Please don't use machine translation. Deb (talk) 18:23, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

The Bones and The Velvet

An edit was just made to insert the idea that velvet scraps were found with the 1674 bones now in the urn at Westminster Abbey. I looked for a citation of where this idea came into being since there were no velvet scraps noted in the urn in 1933. I keep coming across "unknown," " uncited, " and "anonmyous." The Richard III Society has the most thorough information:

'A third account from an unnamed writer who purports to be an eyewitness appears questionable. It was reported by Richard Davey in 1910:

"In the margin of one of the pages of a curious manuscript on Heraldry inherited by this writer from his grandfather, the following note in an ancient handwriting appears: 'This day I, standing by the opening, saw working men dig out of a stairway in the White Tower the bones of those two Princes who were foully murdered by Richard III. They were small bones of lads in their 'teens, and there were pieces of rag and velvet about them. Being fully recognized to be the bones of those two princes, they were carefully put aside in a stone coffin or coffer. "

The above was taken from http://www.richardiii.net/downloads/maurer_bones_part2.pdf

The essay goes on to say that if Davey can be taken at his word, the document was lost, neither Tanner not Wright could trace it, its language is suspect (teens?), and its facts contradict not only other contemporary reports but also contradict the known work going on at the Tower ("dug out of a stairway in the White Tower. ")

I could find no other references to velvet scraps, no mention is made of them being put in the urn - and as the essay points out, any such scraps would have surely been treated as holy relics - nor was any velvet found when the urn was opened in 1933. So I would classify this as single-anonmyous-source rumor, not as fact. Shall we remove it, or include it but report it as rumor unproven with the citation? History Lunatic (talk) 07:44, 17 October 2019 (UTC)History Lunatic

I think it should be removed. Keeping the claim here gives it a prominence that it does not deserve. Celia Homeford (talk) 08:14, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

Agreed. I've removed it as unsourced. The mentalfloss.com cite relates only to the expense of the colour purple and has absolutely nothing to do with Edward, and Steane's book makes no mention of any velvet. Factotem (talk) 08:39, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Edward IV of England which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 10:02, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

Untitled

Is there contemporary evidence that Richard had his brother declared illegitimate? From my understanding, this is more Tudor propaganda. Richard was devoted to his mother, and to declare her as cuckolding his father is rather unthinkable. -- Zoe

Besides which, the old girl was still very much alive and would have had his guts for garters. But there are indications that was one of the stories Clarence was spreading to enhance his chance at the throne and, therefore, the reason their mother didn't hold his execution against Edward and Richard. But it was definitely the Tudor propagandists who said it in public and attributed it to Richard. -- isis 31 Aug 2002

Contemporary accounts of what was said vary. Mancini, who is often quoted by Richard's supporters, is one of those who said that Edward IV himself was declared illegitimate.

I don't think that replacing reasoned argument with non-NPOV stuff is going to help resolve the issue. --Deb

What issue? Nobody ever declared Edward IV illegitimate, so there is no evidence that anyone did. Edward's children were declared illegitimate, by Parliament, in Titulus Regius. Those are facts, and there's a huge difference between NPOV and revisionism. -- isis 31 Aug 2002

There is also no evidence of Edward IV's pre-contract. However, there is a big difference between listing all available evidence and selectively listing the bits you prefer to believe in. Even the Richard III Society website is more objective than the article as it stands. Deb

Yes, there was evidence of the precontract, namely, the Bishop's eye-witness testimony, and it was credible enough to convince Parliament. --isis 31 Aug 2002

Are we really going to descend to repeating all these tired old for-and-against-Richard III arguments? I did my best to make the article NPOV and objective. You have chosen to present only the evidence you find palatable. I can't be bothered to continue the debate --Deb

No one doubts you did your best, and no one doubts your intentions. This is just one of those cases where the consensus of the Wikipedian community went the other way. It happens. --isis 31 Aug 2002

I don't see anything NPOV about what's on the subject page. -- Zoe

Richard was only 'next in line for the throne' if qualifiers are added

"Richard's other brothers, Edmund and George, Duke of Clarence, had both died before Edward, leaving Richard next in line for the throne." This statement is only true if you also add that the Duke of Clarence's children were barred from the succession by their father's attainder. Historians are unclear on this (as was Richard III probably). The statement should probably be altered slightly to reflect this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 136.250.232.88 (talk) 14:18, 22 February 2006 (UTC)