Talk:Ella Holmes White

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assumptions are unhelpful. facts are he only thing wiki should concern itself with.[edit]

i posted this on this ladies alleged "partners" page "Why the speculation on her sexuality? what does it matter what her sexual orientation was? do we now go through every other wiki page for passengers and state their presumed orientation? how does this supposition assist us in this page? effectively this being included is an advert for the "historian" mentioned, it is not useful or provable and it adds nothing to the facts either way. I recommend removal of this assumption and I also recommend wikipedia sticks to the facts in future!" same goes here for this particular lady. they may well have been lovers, or life partners, or just friends we don't know we can only assume, and wiki is not the place for assumptions! 82.9.94.243 (talk) 10:18, 27 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

In the sake of LGBT History, this is an important details. Jonathan Ned Katz is a respected historian, and same-sex relationship history is not easy to document. The fact the two ladies were involved in the Titanic, may have put them on a spotlight that otherwise wasn't happening. Removing sourced content for personal opinion is not the way of proceed. The fact is presented, as it should be, as an assumption: they were living together (proved), they considered each other family (proved by the fact one was the main beneficiary of the other). The assumption was brough along by a third party historian, Jonathan Ned Katz. No reason to remove it. Elisa.rolle (talk) 11:06, 27 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This is an interesting question. The assertion is made in the lead of the article and the assertion is related to the fact that Ella Holmes White was a passenger on the Titanic. But I would agree with the question wether this assumption/speculation belongs in the lead. If the relationship is important in the view of LGBT History then this assumption/speculation (which has been made by a person with a notable reputation) is also notable and belongs in the article. IMHO the proper place is in the article itself and not in the lead. Maybe a category is in order?

The question do we now go through every other wiki page for passengers and state their presumed orientation is simple to answer if you know the Wikipedia well. Most people who were known for their sexual orientation and this notable, have this mentionened in the Wikipedia. There are also a lot of speculations when it can not be referenced. I live in a liberal country and I am shocked that on some talk pages, even today, people make derogatory remarks about sexual oriention if it is not heterosexual (even if it can not be referenced, but is sometimes simply inferred).

What I missed in the article was that she was the daughter of Edwin Holmes (which I have corrected) and married a man of substantial wealth. The article does not explain where her wealth came from and how she could leave such a substantial estate.

Another problem I have with the article, and this is not related to LBGT issues, is that I believe that Ella Holmes White was a summer resident of the Briarcliff Lodge where she more or less kept a farm. This is in keeping with the fact that she bought chickens in France, which were also on the Titanic (they unfortunately did not survive). The Briarcliff Lodge also had a couple of greenhouses which she may have used.

JHvW 15:51, 27 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your contribution. If the issue is to move the assumption out of the lead, I'm all for it and will do it now. As for the Briarcliff Lodge, yes, there are newspaper articles of the time stating she was a guest there. What is what you are missing? cause I can try and find the info if necessary. Elisa.rolle (talk) 16:08, 27 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It is an established fact that people of substantial wealth lived in hotels, pensions and the such, where they had permanent accomodation. But it would be interesting to state wether she was a guest or a resident (there is a difference). There has been some speculation about why Ella Holmes bought chickens in France. I do not believe she bought them so that she could eat them. Nor can I believe she would be allowed to keep them in a regular hotel. It has been suggested that she (and Marie Young) had a country retreat near or on the estate of the Briarcliff Lodge. It may be that the lodge had appartments for residents. These appartments may even had their own facilities. I do not wish to be rude but it does not interest me enough to put a lot of time and effort in this matter, even if it does contribute to the article. JHvW 16:27, 27 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

JHvW: she was a resident of the main lodge, her apartment was the Oak Room.Elisa.rolle (talk) 16:54, 27 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, but I was aware of this, because it was pointed out by someone who was curious about the chickens. More specifically what kind of chickens they were and if Ella Holmes bought them for herself or for the farm at the lodge (meaning that she would also know the owners/staff of the lodge quite well).

I see that the link to the Titanic has been moved. This might still be a problem as the article is still inconsistent (although I am not one to enforce the MoS). My preference would be for something like (with the references):

On 12 December 1894, Holmes married John Stuart White.^[1] White died on 19 May 1897.^[2] Holmes never remarried. Until her death she lived and travelled with Marie Grice Young (a piano teacher whose pupils included the children of President Theodore Roosevelt^[3]^[4]) . Ella Holmes White died in New York City on January 31, 1942 whilst living at the Plaza Hotel (with Young).^[5] Her will left to Young, personal effects and life estate in a trust to yield US$250 ($4,662 in 2023 dollars) per month for life.^[6] Historian Jonathan Ned Katz has suggested that Holmes had an intimate relationship with Marie Grice Young, in a time when same-sex relationships were usually kept very quiet.^[7]

References

^ "Marriage Announcement (1) - Thursday 13th December 1894". New York Times. 1894. Retrieved 18 December 2017.
^ "DEATH NOTICE OF JOHN STUART WHITE - Thursday 20th May 1897". New York Times. 1897. Retrieved 18 December 2017.
^ "MISS MARIE YOUNG DIES - Wednesday 29th July 1959". New York Times. 1959. Retrieved 18 December 2017.
^ "Society: Miss Marie Grice Young - Thursday 17th August 1916". Washington Post. 1916. Retrieved 18 December 2017.
^ Cite error: The named reference encyclopedia-titanica was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
^ "Wills for Probate (1) - Friday 6th February 1942". New York Times. 1942. Retrieved 18 December 2017.
^ White, Barrett (2015). "103 years later, OutSmart dives into the lives of LGBT passengers aboard the Titanic". OutSmart Houston's LGBTQ Magazine. Retrieved 8 January 2018.

[New_York_Times_1894-1] "Marriage Announcement (1) - Thursday 13th December 1894". New York Times. 1894. Retrieved 18 December 2017.

[New_York_Times_1897-2] "DEATH NOTICE OF JOHN STUART WHITE - Thursday 20th May 1897". New York Times. 1897. Retrieved 18 December 2017.

[New_York_Times_1959-3] "MISS MARIE YOUNG DIES - Wednesday 29th July 1959". New York Times. 1959. Retrieved 18 December 2017.

[Washington_Post_1916-4] "Society: Miss Marie Grice Young - Thursday 17th August 1916". Washington Post. 1916. Retrieved 18 December 2017.

[encyclopedia-titanica-5] Cite error: The named reference encyclopedia-titanica was invoked but never defined (see the help page).

[New_York_Times_1942-6] "Wills for Probate (1) - Friday 6th February 1942". New York Times. 1942. Retrieved 18 December 2017.

[7] White, Barrett (2015). "103 years later, OutSmart dives into the lives of LGBT passengers aboard the Titanic". OutSmart Houston's LGBTQ Magazine. Retrieved 8 January 2018.

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