Talk:Elvis Presley/Archive 9

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Incest

I have read allegations that Elvis had sex with his own mother, as well as with Nick Adams. The article should mention this in order to present a balanced picture.

I am glad nobody dignified this with a response... oops! I responded! HighInBC 03:09, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

The allegations are well known and have been around for decades. I suggest you read Dee Presley's book.

Its not a book its an unpublished manuscript, and certainly not a credible source.--Count Chocula 15:36, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

In your opinion.

Discussing the claims by Dee Presley, reputed author Greil Marcus writes in Double Trouble: Bill Clinton and Elvis Presley in a Land of No Alternatives (2000):
"It makes sense," said Jip Golsteijn, pop critic for the Amsterdam Telegraaf. "It's what I heard again and again in Tupelo, years ago. Nobody meant it as a condemnation. Given the way Elvis and Gladys were about each other, it was simply the conclusion everyone drew." (p. 6)
There are similar accounts of Elvis's close relationship to his mother in other publications on the singer, for instance, in Earl Greenwood's book, The Boy Who Would Be King. On p.96, the author says,
When he was ... sharing her bed ..., Gladys told him he was her little man. Not only was Elvis Gladys's son, she also made it clear he was her mate.
On another occasion, when they
were ready to walk out the door, Gladys grabbed Elvis and held him close. "Jus' you 'member, nobody loves you like I do. You always got me." Translated to mean: You best not put any girl before your mama again. ... Gladys wanted to be everything to Elvis and wanted more from him than what was right or healthy to expect. (p.116)
These are original quotes from published books on Elvis. Onefortyone 04:51, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
Nice quotes, but in no way do they prove incest. Any interpretation/translation of these quotes by yourself to make them support your arguements is original research, as I'm sure your well aware--Count Chocula 05:38, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
Here are some further quotes from Greil Marcus's book:
  • Newsbreaks included the National Enquirer's Dee Presley explosion: HIS OWN STEPMOM REVEALS SHOCKING TRUTH AT LAST-ELVIS AND HIS MOM WERE LOVERS. (p.3)
  • About his mother, it's said"—Gladys Presley, who died in 1958, at forty-six, after, if Dee Presley is right, years of bliss with Elvis in her bed, or she in his. "It makes sense," said Adrian Sibley of the BBC's The Late Show. "America has brought Elvis up to date: now he needs therapy just like everybody else. Don't they have twelve-step programs for incest survivors?" (p.6) Onefortyone 05:53, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

So he cites the National Equirer as a credible source? Again, note how none of these revelations were made until after Presley died. Once again user Onefortyone appears to be involved in a concerted effort to cloud this article. This is getting wearisome. Lochdale

I have only cited what a reputed author has written. He is not only quoting from the National Enquirer. Just for your information, here is another source. In his book, Elvis The #1 Hits: The Secret History of the Classics, Patrick Humphries says about Elvis and his mother,
When he entered the Army it marked the longest and furthest distance from her that he'd ever been. For a man who'd slept in the same bed as his momma until his early teens, that was a cruel reality. (p.99)
The author adds on another page of his book,
There is a widely held belief among psychologists that the disappearance of Vernon from Elvis' life when the King was three (Vernon was jailed for passing bad cheques) had a profound effect upon Elvis' emotional development. At that age a child naturally goes through a separation anxiety from its mother, which fathers can often help with. Elvis only had Gladys. They slept in the same bed up until Elvis was a young teen. Elvis loved his father, of course. But a big part of that love was probably based upon his mother's love for the elder Presley. (p.117)
Where are your sources which prove that Elvis wasn't his mother's darling? Onefortyone 00:24, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
I don't have to prove a negative. You are the one who has to prove your accusations. At the moment, you have nothing but innuendo and slander published long after the man had died. This article is a disgrace and it's been disgraced by user Onefortyone and his capricious agenda. Lochdale

I don't think that salacious nonsense belongs in an encyclopedia. Tom Harrison Talk 23:44, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Sorry. The paragraph you have deleted from the Wikipedia article is mainly on Elvis's close relationship to his mother. There can be no doubt that he was a mama's boy. This historical fact, which deeply influenced the singer's life, is discussed by all Elvis biographers. It must be included in a biography, though I can understand that some Elvis fans are not happy with these facts. The paragraph I have written only mentions in passing that there were also claims that Elvis slept with his mother. This was discussed by Greil Marcus and David Wall, two reputed authors. Onefortyone 23:53, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
I do not believe either author actually alleged Elvis was having incestual relations with his mother. It's more a case of you trying to read into things to justify your position. Further, there have been extensive biographies about Presley (such as Guralnik's) and they said no such thing. Don't you think something like an incestual relationship might have found its way into his 600 page FBI file? Lochdale
Marcus cites two other authors who say that Dee Presley's claims make sense. Why should Elvis's close relationship with his mother be of interest to the FBI? They were interested in death threats made against the singer, a major extortion attempt while he was in the Army in Germany, the likelihood of Elvis being the victim of blackmail, complaints about his public performances, a paternity suit, the theft by larceny of an executive jet which he owned and the alleged fraud surrounding a 1955 Corvette which he owned, and such things. Don't you think that an incestual relationship is possible? There can be no doubt that Elvis slept in his mother's bed until he was a young teen. His father was openly talking about these facts. Goldman and Greenwood are writing on Elvis's Oedipal relationships. Onefortyone 02:21, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
The FBI had its own screwy logic. I believe that it was interested in what the nutball Hoover was interested in. Yes of course an incestual relationship is possible. Questions: What's encyclopedic about the possibility that something happened? Who's interested in this crap other than you, the ghost of Hoover, and simple souls who devour tabloids? What's the significance to his music or movies of what Presley might have done with his dick? Why don't you just go off and create a fork (141HollywoodBabylonopedia?) where you could attract like-minded folk to witter on endlessly about the predilections of dead celebs? -- Hoary 02:48, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
I am only citing what is written in books on Elvis. The biographers are discussing these topics which deeply influenced the singer's life. Many readers are interested in these topics. Therefore, according to the Wikipedia guidelines, they are encyclopedic. You and some other users may add some paragraphs on Elvis's music and other aspects of his life. There is much to be done. What about the late Elvis of the 70s? What about the worldwide Elvis industry? Onefortyone 03:05, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Many readers are interested in these topics. It's certain that you are. Anyone else? Me, I haven't the slightest interest in "the late Elvis of the 70s" or "the worldwide Elvis industry" and very little in Presley's life. I have some slight interest in his earlier music and its immediate impact. I don't have books about this. It seems that you do have books about Presley; I'd hope that somewhere between titillating passages about who he porked and how (and mumbojumbo about the "Oedipal"), they'd find the space to say something about his music. Perhaps you could turn your attention to that. -- Hoary 07:38, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
It's also tabloid journalism. With more than 2,000 books written about him each successive book has to be more outlandish than the last. If there were even a shred of evidence that Elvis had a incestual relationship with his mother then Dee Presley's book would be published. For the record, she barely knew Presley. This just does not belong in an encyclopedia. Lochdale

Mistakes in intro

For some reason, I can't edit the intro without deleting the backend of the article. So I'm putting the info here so that a more technically able Wikipedia user can do so.

The intro currently states: He has had more than 120 singles in the US top 40, across various musical genres, with over 20 reaching number one.

Two of the claims are incorrect, and one is exaggerated. Presley has had 104 Top 40 singles, not "more than 120." They span only a few distinct genres. And 17 hit #1, not "over 20" (18 if you count "Hound Dog," which was once counted but has since been deleted by a change in Billboard's methodology).

Out of curiosity, what other genres are there? Presley had pop, rock, country and gospel hits. That's an incredibly varied pallet and one that very few other artists can come close to.

Also, can you provide a citation that billboard removed Hound Dog as a number one hit? Billboard.com suggests your wrong. http://www.billboard.com/bbcom/bio/index.jsp?&cr=artist&or=ASCENDING&sf=length&pid=5444&kw=Presley

Lochdale

Sure, here's a column from Billboard.com discussing the controversy (scroll down to "HOW THEY GOT TO 17"): http://www.billboard.com/bbcom/chart_beat/bonus_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1001736670

Presley's best-known gospel songs, "(There'll Be) Peace in the Valley," and "How Great Thou Art," did not chart in the Top 100. I may have missed one, but the biggest charting gospel single I can find for Elvis is "Where Did They Go, Lord," a minor #33 entry that helps round out his 104 Top 40 singles list, rather than defining it. ("Crying in the Chapel," though a church-themed hit, isn't much of a gospel song.)

Presley's gospel albums sold well, so I suppose the "various genres" credit could be retained with a small rewrite. However, the distinction between "pop" and "rock" is often blurred, and Presley is no exception. And there are many performers who have had charting singles in as many or more genres-- Bing Crosby, Paul McCartney, Elton John, Louis Armstrong, Madonna, Bobby Darin, Ray Charles, Paul Anka, and on and on. For example, Paul Simon can be said to have had hit singles in the genres of rock, pop, folk, salsa, gospel, world music... and that's not counting his flop Broadway musical. Moderate genre-hopping is not so rare or remarkable that it needs to be emphasized in an introduction, and Elvis Presley certainly doesn't need such a claim to boost his profile or credibility (in my opinion).

That's a good point but Presley had repeated cross-over success whereas I'm not sure most of the artists you mentioned did. Put another way, Presley consistently charted on the country and gospel charts whereas the likes of Paul Simon did not. I think that is a more endearing notation and it should be included in the main article. Lochdale

Contradictions

First off, it says that Elvis was an only child because his brother Jesse Garon was stillborn, and that he recieved the middle name Aron with one 'a' so he would never forget his brother, Jesse Garon. But then in the beginning, and at any other points in which they mention Elvis' middle name, it's Aaron with two 'a's.

Until credibility can be shown for either one, i'm gonna change it back to Aron. -Buddhist- 01:38, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

'Aaron' is the spelling used by his estate. I've seen no source that states that Elvis' middlename was a homage to Jesse garon, only that the name was misspelled on his birth certificate and later changed to the correct spelling of 'Aaron'.--Count Chocula 09:36, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Actually, Elvis was named "Aron" at birth but being a very religious man he later changed his middle name so it would be the same as the Biblical Aaron, the brother of Moses.

There's an explanation for the middle name somewhere, and I believe it's an estate-confirmed one -- maybe on the website? Jason 01:45, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Album Sales ?

(Paul0991 20:12, 10 April 2006 (UTC))how many album sales in units has elvis got to date ?

Not as many as Michael Jackson, who is the biggest seeling solo artist in history and has the biggest selling album of all time.—This unsigned comment was added by 195.93.21.67 (talk • contribs) .

As far as I know, Elvis' global sales have been estimated at over billion by RCA records.--Count Chocula 00:14, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

The official Presley website makes it clear they can only account for half a billion sales.

Where on the site does it say that? I can only see the estimate by RCA of over billion.--Count Chocula 13:11, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Estimates maybe, but they can only account for half a billion. Btw, Bing, Michael and the Beatles have outsold Presley, and they didn't have to steal black music - or commit suicide on the can.

Good grief. I posted a link in the discussion above highlighting the fact that Elvis outsold both the Beatles and Michael Jackson. As for stealing black music, see above. Lochdale

Nope. Michael is the biggest selling artist of all time. Just check his official website. Presley was just a dumb racist hick who had sex with Nick Adams and his own mother.

Nice. So you're saying we should believe Jackson's own website over impartial websites that calculate actual sales? Lochdale

According to the International Federation of the Phonographic Industries in 2006, the Beatles are the biggest popular music act of all time, with 400 million albums sold (50 million more albums than their runner-up, Michael Jackson).

Interesting info about Elvis

During his time when Elvis was feeling depressed, not many people knew that he was a follower of Self-Realization Fellowship. He had close ties with Daya Mata and he subscribed to the lessons published by them. However, he hardly received any as his manager stongly discouraged his involvement with the group. Can anyone who is also aware of this shed further information about this? --Siva1979Talk to me 16:37, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Wow, he was even more of a weirdo than I thought.

Whaaaaaaaaat?????? Are you sure or just strange? Carter Zoll 19:06, 20 June 2006 (UTC)


Religion

Someone has been adding the 'Jewish-American' category to this article. Is there any source for this? I've never seen anything written that says Elvis was Jewish. His parents were both Pentecostal and the biography on the official website states Elvis attended the Assembly of God Church with his family [1].--Count Chocula 04:23, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Also he made a song "Miracle of the rosary" which might suggest that he had Catholic beliefs71.112.224.112

Elvis was a Christian no doubt, as his many references to fans that he was not "King", Jesus was King. That said, he did grow up in a penecostal church I believe and later in life read much in regards to spirituality. He did wear both the cross and star of David however; but was not Jewish - though a quarter or so American Indian or Native American. --Northmeister 15:03, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

New paragraphs

I have now added the following paragraphs on Elvis's close relationship to his mother. All statements are well supported by several independent sources quoted in the text:

Mama's boy

There can be no doubt that the first woman in Elvis's life was his mother Gladys. In a newspaper interview with The Memphis Press Scimitar, of which Earl Greenwood gives a short summary in his book, The Boy Who Would Be King (p.155), Elvis himself was honestly open about the relationship to his mother. "She was the number-one girl in his life, and he was dedicating his career to her." The writer called Elvis "a hillbilly cat ... and Mrs. Presley's son. He poked fun at Elvis's closeness to his mama, implying he was a mama's boy, and insinuated Elvis was talented but simple." Indeed, as Elvis biographer Peter Guralnick confirms in his book, Last Train to Memphis: The Rise of Elvis Presley (p.13), "Elvis grew up a loved and precious child. He was, everyone agreed, unusually close to his mother." His father still openly talked about this fact after his son had become famous. Throughout her life, Guralnick writes, "the son would call her by pet names, they would communicate by baby talk, 'she worshiped him,' said a neighbor, 'from the day he was born.' " According to the reputed biographer, Elvis himself said, "My mama never let me out of her sight. I couldn't go down to the creek with the other kids."

Guralnick describes Elvis as a very shy person, as a "kid who had spent scarcely a night away from home in his nineteen years" (p.149) and who was teased by his fellow classmates: "My older brother went to school with him," recalled singer Barbara Pittman, "and he and some of the other boys used to hide behind buildings and throw things at him - rotten fruit and stuff - because he was different, because he was quiet and he stuttered and he was a mama's boy." (p.36) These early experiences had a deep influence on his clumsy advances to girls. According to Guralnick (p.149), he loved playing with the girls and teasing them, but "it didn't go too far. ... In between shows at the auditorium he would peek out from behind the curtain, then, when he spotted someone that he liked, swagger over to the concession stand, place his arm over her shoulder, and drape his other arm around someone else, acting almost like he was drunk, even though everyone knew he didn't drink." Guitarist Scotty Moore attested that Elvis's parents were very protective: "His mama would corner me and say, 'Take care of my boy. Make sure he eats. Make sure he-' You know, whatever. Typical mother stuff." But Elvis "didn't seem to mind; there was nothing phony about it, he truly loved his mother. He was just a typical coddled son, ... very shy – he was more comfortable just sitting there with a guitar than trying to talk to you." Guralnick writes that Gladys was so proud of her boy, that she "would get up early in the morning to run off the fans so Elvis could sleep" (p.280). She was frightened of Elvis even going out of the house: "She knew her boy, and she knew he could take care of himself, but what if some crazy man came after him with a gun? she said ..., tears streaming down her face." (p.346)

On p.117 of his book, Elvis The #1 Hits: The Secret History of the Classics, Patrick Humphries draws attention to the fact that psychologists believe "that the disappearance of Vernon from Elvis' life when the King was three (Vernon was jailed for passing bad cheques) had a profound effect upon Elvis' emotional development. At that age a child naturally goes through a separation anxiety from its mother, which fathers can often help with. Elvis only had Gladys. They slept in the same bed up until Elvis was a young teen." Greenwood says (p.96) that, when Elvis was sharing his mother's bed as a boy, "Gladys told him he was her little man. Not only was Elvis Gladys's son, she also made it clear he was her mate." On another occasion, when they "were ready to walk out the door, Gladys grabbed Elvis and held him close. 'Jus' you 'member, nobody loves you like I do. You always got me.' Translated to mean: You best not put any girl before your mama again. ... Gladys wanted to be everything to Elvis and wanted more from him than what was right or healthy to expect." (p.116) For Humphries (p.99), it is understandable that, when Elvis entered the Army it marked the longest and furthest distance from his mother "that he'd ever been. For a man who'd slept in the same bed as his momma until his early teens, that was a cruel reality." No wonder if this close relationship with his mother would adversely affect the singer's future relationships with girls. In his book, Elvis (McGraw-Hill, 1981), Professor Albert Goldman goes as far as to call Elvis a "pervert" dating fourteen-year-old girls. In his book, The Boy who would be King, Earl Greenwood also confirms (p.239) that Elvis had a predilection for underaged girls, as "with teenage girls, he felt more secure he wouldn't be pleasuring himself with a mother." The author adds (p.254) that home movies were made with these girls. One of Elvis's "favorite things was to watch the girls have sex with each other. The faces changed and each group got younger, until on the final evening there were four fourteen-year-olds ... The movies were Elvis's latest pride and joy. He and his boys watched parts of them every day..." In his second book on the singer, Elvis: The Last 24 Hours, Goldman cites Presley's closest friends and relatives in order to support his view that the star was an undisciplined, self-indulgent hillbilly with a sickly Oedipal relationship with his obese, smothering, mother. Greenwood even suggests (p.245) that "Long-buried Oedipal desires scratched at the surface of his consciousness and threatened to come forth," when Elvis "put Priscilla on a pedestal alongside the gilded image of his deceased mother." Indeed, there were accusations based on claims by the singer's stepmother, Dee Presley, that Elvis may have had an incestuous relationship with his mother. In his book, Double Trouble: Bill Clinton and Elvis Presley in a Land of No Alternativse (2000), reputed author Greil Marcus cites some reactions to the "shocking truth" that Gladys may have had "years of bliss with Elvis in her bed, or she in his": " 'It makes sense,' said Adrian Sibley of the BBC's The Late Show. 'America has brought Elvis up to date: now he needs therapy just like everybody else. Don't they have twelve-step programs for incest survivors?' 'It makes sense,' said Jip Golsteijn, pop critic for the Amsterdam Telegraaf. 'It's what I heard again and again in Tupelo, years ago. Nobody meant it as a condemnation. Given the way Elvis and Gladys were about each other, it was simply the conclusion everyone drew.' " (p. 6) Be that as it may, when his mother died, Elvis was "sobbing and crying hysterically", as Guralnick relates (p.478). "He was grieving almost constantly, the papers wrote." According to several eye-witnesses, "He'd cry all day," and when they had get him calmed down, "the next day it would start all over again." (p.480) Onefortyone 18:17, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

It would be a lot better if you trimmed it down to one paragraph. Having three large paragraphs on his relationship with his mother is just way too much.--Count Chocula 00:36, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

It's way too much for you, Count, and for me; but there's plenty of evidence that certain editors think there can never be too much "information" of the tabloid variety about US celebrities. Perhaps we're missing something and Presley was really notable not for his sometimes good records or for his reliably dreadful but money-spinning movies or even for his hilariously glitzy taste but instead for his sex life (or lack thereof) and drug intake. Perhaps something analogous is true for all celebrities. Or indeed even for you and me! -- Hoary 08:41, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

It probably belongs in the birth and childhood section anyway as well--Count Chocula 00:38, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

These "independent" sources are of questionable veracity. Further, with more than 2,000 books published about the man we're really scraping the bottom of the barrel in order to justify salacious claims such as these. User OnefortyOne has gone from claiming that Elvis was gay to claims that Elvis had sexual relations with his mother. It's a vicious, demaning attack that lessens the entire article. It has no support from any credible sources and it is so far from left field that it should be removed from the article. Additionally, User Onefortyone has a history of distorting secondary sources on this page. For example, he quotes Guralnik and then makes an effort to tie Guralnik's book into Goldman's books (even using the title "Professor" to give some additional credibility to Goldman. Guralnik has never suggested that Elvis had sexual relations with his mother. Instead, user Onefortyone would rather we take outlandish theories as accepted fact. Lochdale

I believe this section should be removed. It's a very serious claim to suggest that someone was having incestual relations with their own mother. User Onefortyone has cleverly tried to link a credible source (Guralnik) with questionable sources. Even Goldman never suggested that Elvis had an incestual relationship with his mother. His 600 page FBI file contains no such suggestion. More than 2,000 books written about the man contain no such suggestion. Numerous articles in reputable periodicals contain no such suggestion. Instead, we have a user who is trying his best to concoct a story that Elvis is either gay and/or having incestual relations. What's next, Elvis owned a dog therefore he is into beastiality? Lochdale

What are you talking about, Lochdale? Truth be told, I have only quoted from Guralnick's book in order to show that Elvis was a mama's boy. There are many other books on Elvis including the same topic. The last part of the paragraph I have written mentions in passing that there was also the claim by Elvis's stepmother, Dee Presley, that the singer slept with his mother. These claims have been discussed by Greil Marcus and David Wall, not by Peter Guralnick. A Wikipedia article should cite what is written in published sources, not what you think should not be mentioned, and Guralnick, Marcus, etc. are reliable sources. Where are your sources which prove that Elvis wasn't a mama's boy? Could it be that you are not happy with this historical fact, and therefore endeavor to remove content you don't like from the article? Onefortyone 23:33, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
Not at all. The fact that Elvis was devoted to his mother is one thing, your effort to make him out to be a "mamma' boy" is another thing all together. Your efforts to then tie that into a notion that Elvis was having incestual relations with his mother is disgraceful. He was close to his mother which Guralnik notes. Guralnik also spends some 700+ pages on other issues. Guralnik never suggested that Elvis was a "mamma's boy" as you so pejoratively put and he never suggested an incestual relationship. At best, this is a one or two sentence addition to this page. Lochdale
Truth be told, Lochdale. On page 36 of his book, Last Train to Memphis, Guralnick writes on Elvis that he was teased by his fellow classmates who threw "things at him - rotten fruit and stuff - because he was different, because he was quiet and he stuttered and he was a mama's boy." By the way, Guralnick is discussing Elvis's close relationship with his mother on many other pages of his book, as most Elvis biographers do. Onefortyone 02:11, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
The fundamental problem with the addition is that it requires tortured logic to reach its conclusion. Put another way, you've gone to tremendous pains and effort to paint a one-dimensional picture about Elvis and his mother. In essence, you have created a strawman by linking disconnected prose to suggest that Elvis was a "mamma's boy". No writer actually alleges an incestual relationship. This sort of conjecture simply doesn't belong in an encyclopedia. Moreover, Guralnik noted that it was a testament to Presley's character that he was able to overcome such teasing and 50's conventionalism to create rock & roll. Lochdale
The fundmental problem is that you are unable to cite sources which prove that Elvis wasn't a mama's boy. You further claim "Guralnik noted that it was a testament to Presley's character that he was able to overcome such teasing and 50's conventionalism to create rock & roll." Where is your original quote? As an Amazon search proves, Guralnick does not use expressions such as "testament", "teasing" or "conventionalism" in the sense you imply in his books. See [2], [3], [4], [5], [6], [7]. Onefortyone 23:32, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
The fact is, however, that Guralnik never suggested that Presley's relationship with his mother was hurtful or that he was a "momma's boy". You are using that term in the pejorative sense. Guralnik says Preseley was teased but never that he was bullied. Perhaps the section could be rewritten to note that Presley was close to his mother but that's really about it. You are taken quotes out of context or using them to support less than reputable sources to promote your agenda that Presley was a "mamma's boy" and/or that he had incestous relations with her. Neither position is suppported by the vast weight of the evidence on Presley. Nothing like this has been noted by any biographer of note and it also failed to appear in over 600 pages of FBI files. Lastly, I don't have to prove anything. You are the one inserting a POV into this article (again and again) despite the fact that no credible evidence supports your position. Lochdale

On further review of Guralnik's first biography I note that he does not mention that Presley slept in his mother's bed until he was a teenager. Rather odd that perhaps the most comprehensive biography of the man doesn't mention that fact? Further, Guralnik notes that Presley was being teased for how he dressed and how he wore his hair rather than his relationship with his mother. User Onefortyone seems to delight in focusing solely on the sexual mores of Presley. He clearly has an agenda that is supported by questionable sources and using quotes out of context. It is an agenda that is destroying what could otherwise be a useful article. Lochdale

Would you please stick to the facts. Here are some direct quotes from Guralnick's book:
  • Elvis ... was, everyone agreed, unusually close to his mother. Vernon spoke of it after his son became famous, almost as if it were a source of wonder that anyone could be that close. Throughout her life the son would call her by pet names, they would communicate by baby talk, "she worshiped him," said a neighbor, "from the day he was born."
  • Elvis' own view of his growing up was more prosaic. "My mama never let me out of her sight. I couldn't go down to the creek with the other kids.
  • Many of the other children made fun of him as a "trashy" kind of boy playing trashy "hillbilly" music, but Elvis stuck to his guns. Without ever confronting his denigrators or his critics, he continued to do the one thing that was important to him: he continued to make music.
  • ... a few of the "rougher-type" boys took his guitar and cut the strings ...
  • [his fellow classmates threw] "things at him - rotten fruit and stuff - because he was different, because he was quiet and he stuttered and he was a mama's boy."

Here are some further sources: On page 19 of their book, Elvis Presley, Richard Nixon, and the American Dream, Connie Kirchberg and Marc Hendrickx refer to the "already common 'mama's boy' teasing he had endured since the first day of school, when Gladys walked him to the door." On page 2 of his book, Rockabilly: A Forty-Year Journey, Billy Poore writes that it is "a fact that in 1953 Elvis was a shy, introverted mama's boy in a town full of bullies." In his book, Elvis After Elvis: The Posthumous Career of a Living Legend, Gilbert B Rodman calls Elvis "the dutiful mama's boy" (p.104) and mentions, with reference to Guralnick, "the humble modesty of a Dixie-bred mama's boy: In many ways I am sure that the picture is accurate, and it undoubtedly conforms to the image that Elvis Presley had of himself." (p.142) Onefortyone 03:22, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Guralnik never suggests that Presley's relationship with his mother was anything abnormal.
He clearly says that he was "unusually close to his mother". Other biographers are more outspoken. Onefortyone 12:46, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Guralnik further notes that Presley was often teased for his clothing and his hair. Guralnik is quite clear, however, that Presley stood up for himself. Using your own quotes, a "Dixie-bred mama's boy" is not a pejortative. Put another way, Elvis was respectful and deferential towards his mother. That isn't a bad thing and should not be portrayed as such.
What about including a well-resourced passage in the said section? Onefortyone 12:46, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
This is the way both Guralnik and Priscilla Presley paint his relationship with his mother. The fundamnetal problem with your comments user Onefortyone is that they are agenda driven.
I would say that your deletion tactics are agenda driven. Where are your well-resourced contributions to the article? Onefortyone 12:46, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Your sources are either unreputable or taken out of contest.
This is your false opinion. In line with the Wikipedia guidelines, I have used several independent sources to support my view, among them biographies on the singer. Onefortyone 12:46, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Ask yourself this, why wouldn't the FBI files (over 600 pages) not note an unusual relationship with his mother? Why didn't his wife mention this in her book? Why doesn't Peter Guralnik (widely considered to be Presley's greatest biographer) not focus on this relationship beyond noting that Elvis was a southern boy who was close to his mother (not unusual for an only child)? Why didn't the "Memphis Mafia" members who wrote widely about Presley ever mention anything like this? Instead, you are making an effort to take quotes out of context and support questionable sources by interweaving their quotes with credible sources. The fact is, Presley's life has been the cornerstone of modern tabloid journalism. Even with that, you are still struggling to find anything (other than quoting out of context or inferring something that is not supportable) to support your positions. This is not a NPOV.
Why should the FBI be interested in Elvis's relationship with his mother? (See also my statement in another section of this talk page.) However, the FBI had maintained a file on Elvis since the 1950s when they considered him to be a "pervert" who represented a threat to the moral well-being of young American women, and the file had never been closed. Guralnick says a lot about Elvis's close relationship with Gladys, as most other biographers do. Are you really of the opionion that the Memphis Mafia guys thought that Elvis wasn't a mama's boy? And what about the strategies of the world-wide Elvis industry that have been discussed by Professor Wall? Fans frequently endeavor to suppress information about the life of the singer which is not in line with a positive view of their star. Onefortyone 12:46, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Instead, much like your claims that Elvis was gay etc. you have an agenda. It's an agenda that is not supported by the evidence and should not be supported here. Lochdale
Truth be told, Lochdale, I am not of the opinion that Elvis was gay, as he had relationships with women. But there is some evidence that he had also a relationship with his best friend, Nick Adams. Thus you might say that he had also bisexual leanings. Onefortyone 12:46, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

I have removed the paragraph calling Presley a "mama's boy" until we can agree as to what being a "mama's boy" actually means. Further, the paragraph contained the POV language that Presley felt "inadequate" and thus needed beautiful women around him. I guess every man on the planet must not be considered inadequate. It isn't written as a NPOV and, again, goes to User Onefortyone's agenda relating to this article. Lochdale

Your removing strategies are not acceptable, as my contributions are well-sourced. The passage that Elvis felt "inadequate" and thus needed beautiful women was not written by me. Perhaps this was Ted Wilkes's contribution to the Relationships section. What we need is a balanced view of the singer's life which does not exclude critical voices. Onefortyone 12:46, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

In his review of Guralnick's book, Careless Love, Ted Drozdowski shows how Elvis's unusually close relationship with his mother influenced the singer's life:

Right up until his own death, Elvis could not make peace with his mother's having died in 1958 -- and somehow that fueled a chain of insecurities leading back to his childhood as a loner and mama's boy. He grew up afraid of the night, which kept him from sleeping and gave him an excuse for his pharmacological intake. And the drugs, though they might initially put him out, would also wake him as their conflicting chemistry did battle within his body. See [8]

It may be added that his experiences as a mama's boy also explain in part why Elvis could be manipulated by his manager, Colonel Parker. Onefortyone 14:23, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

The removal is entirely consistent. Firstly, why not quote from Guralnik's book itself rather than a review? Are you suggesting that a writer as good as Guralnik would miss something like this? That publications such as Rolling Stone, Time, Newsweek, New York Times are so blind that they didn't notice it either? That the FBI failed to figure it out? With more than 2,000 books published on the man you can barely find two that allude to an incestousrelationship? This simply does not rise to the level of credible sources. Here is a good critique by a Professor of Physchology at the University of California (Davis)[9] of Goldman's book. An sample of the critique:

" Goldman holds firm to elitist academic attitudes, but charges ahead without the slightest sign of scholarly biographical skills." or "Lacking both in detailed citations of sources and in clear criteria for judging the validity of biographical evidence, Goldman's narrative becomes impossible to trust on virtually any point of fact."

Your sources are not credible. Further, given the de minimus number of your sources versus the overwhelming evidence to the contrary I feel comfortable in deleting your edits. Feel free to take this arbitration so we don't continue to go around in circles. Lochdale

Reviews of Goldman's book make it clear that it simply isn't a credible source: [10]. Peter Guralnik's dismissal of Goldman's book [11] (dismissive of Goldman's research regarding Presley's sexuality). From the Dallas Observer noting that Goldman's book was highly biased whereas Guralnik actually made a journalistic effort [12] Lochdale

Goldman's critical study can be called the first book on Elvis which was not written in the vein of the world-wide Elvis industry. Certainly it has raised a lot of controversial discussions among Elvis fans, as it was not constantly singing the praise of the star. By the way, this book was also one of the sources Guralnick has used for his publications on Elvis. You certainly know that there are also positive evaluations of the book. As for Guralnick, even he has been criticized for all too uncritically citing from books by the Memphis Mafia members. Be that as it may, as everybody can see, I have mentioned Goldman's book only in passing, but his critical remarks should be mentioned. Did you realize that I have quoted from many other independent sources? What I have written is clearly sourced from published books with named authors and so it belongs in the article. It is a fact you cannot deny that all of my contributions are based on material to be found in published books and articles on Elvis. There is more than enough to warrant inclusion. If the Elvis article would be an academic publication, the many quotes and references I have given would make reporting of Elvis being a mama's boy automatic. Indeed failure to mention something with so many sources would be looked at as either incompetent research or agenda-motivated censorship. This is what a Wikipedia article needs: a balanced view, based on several independent sources - not only stories an enthusiastic fan wants to read. According to the Wikipedia guidelines, valid facts which are well sourced should not be removed from an article. You are repeatedly deleting paragraphs I have written which are well sourced. This behavior clearly shows that Professor David S. Wall is right with his statements about the activities of the world-wide Elvis industry. Where are your contributions to the Elvis article which are based on direct quotes from books on the singer? All you can do is criticizing other users, denigrating the sources they have used and deleting content you don't like. Interestingly, this is the same strategy multiple hardbanned editor Ted Wilkes has used in the past. This is not NPOV. Therefore, would you please refrain from removing paragraphs which are not in line with your personal view. Onefortyone 16:35, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
It has nothing to do with my POV. You are introducing sources and notions that are not NPOV. This "Elvis industry" that you talk about wasn't so effective that they could keep his philandering and rampant drug abuse now did they? You quote Griel Marcus to support your POV when he destroyed Goldman's book pointing out the numerous factual errors in the book itself. The indpendent sources that you quote from are rebutted by the overwhelming number of sources who do not support the notion that Elvis had an incestual relationship with his mother. For example, Marcus quotes Elaine Dundy's book "Elvis and Gladys" [13]which destroys the notion that Elvis was a "mamma's boy" much less that he had an incestous relationship with his mother. Your sources are also misquoted. Marcus does not consider Presley a "mama's boy" rather a man who could not control his own urges which went against his upbringing. Lochdale

Citing conjecture by one author does not make it fact. To accuse someone of an incestous relationship without any real proof is not appropriate for an Encyclopedia. Again, how do legitimate biographers such as Guralnik fail to note any such relationship? Moreover, Greenwood's book itself is riddled with inaccuracies and an inability to cite to actual sources other than "the Memphis circle". Lochdale

One of the problems with Earl Greenwood's book is that Greenwood barely knew Evlis and certainly didn't live with him. Again, we're raising tabloid journlism to the level of conjecture when there is no support of such conjecture. Adding utterly unproven claims of incest to this page does a disservice to the Encyclopedia as well as to the many reputable journalists who have covered Presley. There are over 2,000 books on the man, perhaps a million articles and a 600 page FBI file. Other than the ones mentioned by User Onefortyone, none of these have ever alleged or even suggested incest. There hasn't been a refutation of these allegations because they hasn't needed to be. Greil Marcus, who utterly destroyed Goldman's book in the Village Voice, noted how Elaine Dundy's book "Elvis and Gladys" removed any lingering myths about Presley's relationship with his mother. All we are left with is tabloid journalism on the most covered celebrity in human history. Are we now to give some legitimacy to that type of hackery? When reputable biographers like Peter Guralnik fail to mention anything about this, when Presley's wife and best friends fail to mention this then I think it's safe to say that it should not be detailed in an encyclopedic entry. Lochdale

Are you sure that Elaine Dundy's book Elvis and Gladys "removed any lingering myths about Presley's relationship with his mother", as you are claiming above? Here is what the book says about Gladys's close relationship with Elvis:
it was agony for her to leave her child even for a moment with anyone else, to let anyone else touch Elvis. Maternal love was not for Gladys a prettily sentimental attachment. Rather it was a passionate concentration which deepened into a painful intensity when her son was not there, directly in her sight. She imagined all sorts of horrors. She imagined he was being tortured and she was not there to stop it. It was physical torment for her to be separated from him. Maternal devotion is constantly misrepresented as either grasping, clinging, stifling or pathetic. It is none of these things. Every mother of a very young child has the primordial conviction, deeper than reason, that as long as her child is within her eyesight she will be able to protect him from all harm. Generally the mother outgrows this as the child grows up but Gladys all her life remained anxious over each one of Elvis' separations from her. (p.71)
Does this sound like a usual relationship between mother and son? I don't think so. Onefortyone 22:33, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
On page 109 of his peer-reviewed study, Theorizing About Myth (University of Massachusetts Press, 1999), Robert A. Segal calls Elvis "a consummate mamma's boy who lived his last twenty years as a recluse in a womblike, infantile world in which all of his wishes were immediately satisfied yet who deemed himself entirely normal, in fact 'all-American.' " Onefortyone 21:29, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
Interestingly, Joe Harrington, on p.166 of his book, Sonic Cool: The Life & Death of Rock 'n' Roll calls Elvis's "Kissin' Cousins" an "incestuous Rock n Roll song." According to Jim Green, the record, The King and Eye "incisively portrays Elvis's life and work as a misguided abandonment of innocence in favor of a sad yet comedic Oedipal journey" (quoted in George Plasketes, Images of Elvis Presley in American Culture, 1977-1997: The Mystery Terrain, p.37). Onefortyone 22:47, 8 May 2006 (UTC)\

I've edited the section 'Mama's Boy' due to the over editoralizing by User Onefortyone. In addition, he cites Earl Greendwood's book which was published after Presley died. Greenwood is a distant cousing of Preley's who never lived with the Presley's. It is the sole source of the comments in the section and it's credibiltiy could be described as dubious at best. Lochdale

As everybody can see, I have quoted from Elvis books by Earl Greenwood, Greil Marcus, Albert Goldman, Peter Guralnick, Elaine Dundy, and Patrick Humphries. Onefortyone 23:49, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

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