Talk:Ensign College

Lede sentence needs to be changed

I recently edited the lede sentence of this article to (a) remove the statement that the college is a "two-year" college and (b) add that the college is a "Latter-day Saint college."

It is not helpful for readers, especially those not familiar with U.S. higher education, to describe this institution as a "two-year college." The most recent graduation data from IPEDS indicate that only 17% of the full-time, first-time students who enrolled in the fall of 2015 graduated in two years; for the fall 2016 cohort, only 11% graduated in two years. So it appears to be very misleading to use the phrase "two-year college" to describe this institution. Instead, it's much more helpful to describe the academic programs (e.g., associate degrees) and that is done in the same paragraph just two sentences later.

It also seems necessary and accurate to include the institution's religious character in the lede description as that is critical information. In fact, the college's mission is to "develop capable and trusted disciples of Jesus Christ." An institution that has this strong of a religious character must have that information included in the lede; we do this for all kinds of religious institutions and we also do this for other kinds of institutions that have specific missions or foundations that permeate the institution. It is not sufficient to say that the college is merely owned and operated by the church; that says nothing about how the religion influences the operations of the college.

@ChristensenMJ: please participate in this discussion. Thanks! ElKevbo (talk) 16:13, 8 September 2020 (UTC)

ElKevbo, technically it is a two-year college. Graduation stats are off compared to other schools because most members serve a mission - they attend for a semester or year or so then leave. But the school will start offering bachelor's degrees next year so the point is kind of moot, wouldn't you say? I think we should just leave it. Why bother having an edit war about it now when next year the question will literally be "academic". Heh, I love puns. :) Banaticus (talk) 01:00, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

In general, the term "two year college" is used interchangably with "offers only associates degrees" (and other certificate). The question that I have is whether students at Ensign will be able to graduate in Fall of 2021 with a Bachelors Degree *or* whether or not in Fall of 2021 the 3rd year of a four year program leading to a Bachelor degree will become available leading to graduation in the Spring of 2023. If it is the first, I have no problem dropping two year as the primary descriptor of the school (though clearly the further information will continue to show the fact that the school heavily oriented toward Associates degrees still). If it is the *second*, then the descriptor should not change until next fall.Naraht (talk) 20:06, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

The two-year college aspect has been addressed well by Banaticus. Each of the Church Educational System's higher education institutions are often going to be skewed by the impact of missionary service when trying to use IPEDS as a measuring stick. To answer questions posed by Naraht, the ability to continue in a bachelor's degree course of study will commence in fall 2021. No students will begin graduating with a bachelor of applied science (BAS) degree until subsequent years. Additionally, it is not at all uncommon for institutions to provide such a degree, but to still be a two-year, or associate degree-granting, institution, even when offering a limited number of bachelor's degrees. So it would not be appropriate to update the college's "number of years" identifier as a primary descriptor even after the BAS are offered. To another topic raised by ElKevbo, as would probably be obvious from my edit history/summaries on this article, I don't think it's necessary, or perhaps even appropriate, to have updated the lede to provide what I believe is too narrow a view in casting it as a "Latter-day Saint college." If it needs to be strengthened to the accommodate the points made above in this talk section, it could be in accordance with its ownership by the church. Having the narrow descriptor now currently in place, as recently edited, could/may imply it's more of a "bible study" or ecclesiastical school, rather than an institution of higher education with the broad range of degree programs offered. It may also lead a reader to believe it's more of a priesthood-development, career pastor-type institution, which it is not. The slogan referenced above is certainly foundational in helping students shape their character in wholesome and integrity-based learning, but is not a preparation for a life in the ministry. ChristensenMJ (talk) 03:36, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

No, the "two-year college aspect" has not been "addressed well." It's simply inaccurate to say that this is a two-year institution when fewer than 1/5 of the college's students earn their degree in two years. We should not be in the business of lying to or misleading readers. To be clear, I would have the same argument against labeling many other institutions as "two-year" or "four-year" colleges or universities; those archaic labels are just inaccurate for many students and many institutions particularly now that the majority of college students in the U.S. are "non-traditional" students. We should include in the lede a brief description of the degrees that the institution awards but that description should be accurate. The college's Basic Carnegie Classification is "Associate's Colleges: Mixed Transfer/Career & Technical-High Traditional;" I recommend using the shortened "associate's college" for this article and others with similar classifications.

I do not understand or agree with the concerns that the descriptor "Latter-day Saint college" implies solely religious education. There are many fine colleges and universities that are operated by or strongly linked to religious groups. When those institutions self-identify as such or have a relationship that strongly and clearly influences the institution's character, including their curricula, we prominently include the religion in the lede sentence. No one believes that our labeling of Notre Dame as a "Catholic research university" means that it's a Catholic seminary or our labeling of Baylor as a "Baptist research university" means that it's a Baptist bible college. This college strongly and clearly identifies with the LDS church with strong claims that this plays a central role in its curricula; it would be a disservice to readers to not make this clear in the lede sentence as it's a critical characteristic of this college. ElKevbo (talk) 05:36, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

I believe it is a significant overstatement to assert that readers are being lied to or misled with respect to the "two-year college" aspect, although I don't disagree that the traditional descriptor of two and four-year institutions isn't all that helpful. I think the spirit of "associate college" is Ok, although the terminology could be improved (along with the aspect that they grant certificates as well), but something like "associate degree-granting institution" seems unduly cumbersome. Perhaps another consideration is what is still out there as common usage. Recognizing the mention of having the same concerns for archaic terminology doesn't mean it's not still commonly used or understood. I actually don't know if there has been a shift there or not. On the religion aspect, similar sentiment since I obviously don't think any disservice or harm is being done to readers to note the church's ownership as the article had long-stated prior to the recent good faith edit. ChristensenMJ (talk) 15:43, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

So many institutions offer certificates and non-credit courses that I think it's not worth considering in terms of specific terminology to describe the institutions.

I feel strongly about including this institution's religious character in the lede because it goes well beyond mere ownership. The religious character appears to be pervasive including significant influences on the curricula. Such a critical fact warrants inclusion in the lede. ElKevbo (talk) 21:45, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

Certainly agree about certificates - of course very differentiated from simply enrolling in non-credit courses - such as those within information technology. Yes, it's apparent there are strong feelings about more being said about the institution's character, although I obviously think that ownership has sufficient awareness of its influence. ChristensenMJ (talk) 22:39, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

I think while "Two Year College" is inaccurate, it is still common usage. In terms of "Four Year Colleges" There are many well respected Colleges offering Bachelors degrees, Masters Degrees and Doctoral Degrees where less than half of the students attending at any time actually earn a degree in 4 years, either because they are seeking a Masters or Doctoral Degree which aren't tied to 4 years *or* because a large number of the students end up spending extra semesters. The only schools that I expect to be 95%+ "Four years to graduate" are the US Military Academies. (My honest guess is in terms of another LDS school, that BYU (Provo) is probably less than 50% four year graduation, but I doubt many would not describe it that way.)Naraht (talk) 21:28, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

That actually supports my point: We don't refer to institutions as "four-year colleges/universities." And I'd be opposed to anyone who would propose that we begin doing that.

(Incidentally, the "best" colleges and universities - rich, very selective, etc. - do have very graduation rates. U.S. News & World Report has a listing of institutions with the highest 4-year graduation rates. But even the military academies barely crack 90%.) ElKevbo (talk) 21:45, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

Given that the official aggregated four-year graduation rate for students attending public colleges and universities across the US is only 33.3% and only 52.8% at private colleges and universities, yet none are listed as "six year colleges", and given that 3rd-party sites define a two-year college as a college that focuses on associate's degrees, I would suggest that a two-year college is not one in which students primarily graduate in two years but rather where the focus is on the "first two years" of an undergraduate experience, i.e. an associate's degree. A two-year college is one where the focus is associate's degrees. A four-year college is one where the focus is bachelor's degrees. While the number of years it takes an average person to graduate can usually be a good gauge of how well university faculty encourage a person to continue attending the school, how much help a student gets, etc., when we're talking about a religious institution that actively encourages its students to stop their education and to go serve a mission, I feel that the "how many students graduate within two years" metric is less than useful.

Banaticus (talk) 01:53, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

With the possible exception of Cappex, those are terrible sources that we would never consider to be reliable. I concede that "two-year" and "four-year" are in the vernacular but we can use expert sources and be more accurate.

And I'm very confused that you appear to be arguing that we should label this institution a two-year college but you're also arguing that the label is especially inappropriate for this institution because it encourages students to pause their studies to do missionary work. ElKevbo (talk) 03:32, 22 October 2020 (UTC)