Talk:Eric Illsley

This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.

If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page.

Biography: Politics and Government

	Biography portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles
	This article is supported by the politics and government work group (assessed as Low-importance).
	An editor has requested that an image or photograph be added to this article.

British crime (defunct)

This article is within the scope of WikiProject British crime, a project which is currently considered to be defunct.British crimeWikipedia:WikiProject British crimeTemplate:WikiProject British crimeBritish crime articles

Crime and Criminal Biography Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Crime and Criminal Biography articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Crime and Criminal BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyCrime-related articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Organized Labour Low‑importance

	Organized Labour portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Organized Labour, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles related to Organized Labour on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Organized LabourWikipedia:WikiProject Organized LabourTemplate:WikiProject Organized Labourorganized labour articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Politics of the United Kingdom Mid‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Politics of the United Kingdom, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Politics of the United Kingdom on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Politics of the United KingdomWikipedia:WikiProject Politics of the United KingdomTemplate:WikiProject Politics of the United KingdomPolitics of the United Kingdom articles
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Yorkshire High‑importance

	Yorkshire portal Eric Illsley is within the scope of WikiProject Yorkshire, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to Yorkshire on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can visit the project page, where you can join the project, see a list of open tasks, and join in discussions on the project's talk page.YorkshireWikipedia:WikiProject YorkshireTemplate:WikiProject YorkshireYorkshire articles
High	This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.

His own perspective (worth including)[edit]

[1] Kittybrewster ☎ 11:39, 12 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

pleaded/pled guilty[edit]

I changed the "pleaded guilty" to "pled guilty" as "pleaded sounded wrong to me and I assumed it was the US version.

It turns out that "pled" is the more common Scottish term, which has also found high usage in US English (but is controversial in US).[2] That's why it sounds better to me as a Scot - I never hear "pleaded". See also "bleeded- bled" "speeded-sped" etc.

However, it does appear that "pleaded" is more common in English-English, and so given the subject of this article, it should probably stand.--Scott Mac 13:17, 15 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I reverted Scott - pled sounded American to my westcountry ears. Chambers has pled as Scottish, US, and dialect, with pleaded as the usual form. DuncanHill (talk) 17:15, 15 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Category:English fraudsters[edit]

He's a convicted fraudster from England. There is no violation of BLP. Scott appears to have a highly idiosyncratic understanding of English. DuncanHill (talk) 22:20, 10 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Related discussions here at the BLP noticeboard archive, here, for a discussion of the ctegory name, and last three threads here, discussion with Scott MacDonald about his approach to this category. DuncanHill (talk) 22:40, 10 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Since others have shared my concerns, it isn't by definition idiosyncratic. See the discussion on the BLP noticeboard.--Scott Mac 22:46, 10 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Dictionaries, which are considered authoritative sources for the definitions of words, do not support the view that "fraudster" only applies to career criminals. We cannot make up definitions of words and then edit on that basis. Will Beback talk 23:55, 10 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No one has yet provided a dictionary source with the level of nuance to settle this. But we err on the cautious side on BLPs.--Scott Mac 00:09, 11 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That's because the "level of nuance" doesn't exist. You can't assert something base only on your personal view and call that a policy. BLP doesn't say, "if an editor thinks, without any proof, that a term is derogatory or incorrect then it must be removed". Rather, it says that all negative material must be sourced. It is sourced that the subject committed fraud, and we have sources that say people who commit fraud are called fraudsters. Therefore there's no violation of BLP. Will Beback talk 00:28, 11 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There is also a fair bit of support for Scott's position, me included along with many others at the cat discussion. Off2riorob (talk) 00:37, 11 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

If there are sources to support your position then that'd be helpful. I don't see how three or six Wikipedia editors can decide the meaning of a word that is already clearly defined in standard dictionaries. (Maybe that number of Wiktionary editors could though). If editors know of a better category to reflect the subject's crime then that's fine too. Will Beback talk 01:02, 11 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yea, clearly he is "a politician convicted of fraud" # Off2riorob (talk) 01:05, 11 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I've subcategorised Category:British politicians convicted of crimes to Category:British politicians convicted of fraud. OK?--Scott Mac 01:11, 11 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds like a solution to me. Off2riorob (talk) 01:14, 11 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Whatever floats your boat. Will Beback talk 04:14, 11 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]