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Bosnia HErzegovina?

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Bosni didn’t partecipe in 2025 Ciao James (talk) 15:05, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I moved Montenegro to other countries

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So, Montenegro just published this [1] ([2]). It's promising news that suggests that Montenegro is planning to return to the contest in 2025. However, I don't think this is enough to include them in the participants list, and this is partly due to how much it reminds me of the North Macedonia thing last year. But I feel like we should create a consensus on what to do, because they're unlikely to make a proper announcement for months. Thomediter (talk) 09:54, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see how North Macedonia last year is relevant here. They planned on participating, it didn't happen. Every year there are 40-ish countries that plan on participating and then do it. Toffeenix (talk) 10:15, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
On Eurovoix, they even state that "While this document is not an official announcement from RTCG, its publication indicates that the broadcaster is intending to return to Eurovision next year.", so I'd say that for now, we shouldn't treat it as confirmation. Mr. Thistle (talk) 10:15, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The list in this article is of broadcasters that "have publicly confirmed their intention to participate", and Eurovoix says that the broadcaster is intending to return to Eurovision. So why is this not good enough? ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 17:27, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Thomediter But the rules say "The Rulebook <...> regulates the procedure for selecting the composition that will represent Montenegro and Radio and Television of Montenegro at the Eurovision Song Contest 2025." I think we can consider this as a confirmation of participation Balandėliai (talk) 10:45, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's just not an official announcement. We had the same issue with North Macedonia last year, which made wikipedia reliability guidelines look very weak. Thomediter (talk) 11:09, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I would say it is no less official than a few of the confirmations from other countries at the moment (Austria as an example. That's just a report from a newspaper saying ORF wants to select an artist internally, which is really no different from RTCG wanting to hold a national final) Toffeenix (talk) 11:45, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I’d also like to add that the situation with North Macedonia in 2024 related to a budget plan that was not once officially confirmed to have been accepted, which is different to the situation we have here with Montenegro, where the broadcaster released a document outlining the rules for a national final that could take place (however states that in the event of the national final not taking place for specified reasons an internal selection will be held instead). All of this combined leads me to say that this counts as a confirmation of participation and carries more weight than what the North Macedonia 2024 budget plan ever did. Violatie (talk) 12:21, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Eurovoix themselves don't consider it confirmation, and that's the current source Thomediter (talk) 12:27, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The source for this is the file from RTCG, and this thread pretty much translates the key information it shares (https://x.com/ESCdiscord/status/1821095825855905978), including song submission closing dates and rules for the contest. I’m not sure why Eurovoix only considers it a partial confirmation given that the actual file from RTCG isn’t worded as an “if things go as planned” scenario. Violatie (talk) 12:34, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Montenegro should be considered fully confirmed considering the rules file is from the official state broadcaster and explicitly states it’s for the national final used to select a participant for the Eurovision Song Contest 2025, as violatie stated it’s not a possible ”if everything goes right” confirmation but an official ”we will participate” confirmation. Bukbunabinars (talk) 12:52, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Just got a comment, asking for a response from me since I started this. I'm not sure what the right way is forward, but I thought I'd make vote to include or exclude for now, just to get a clear picture of what the consensus is moving more towards, even though I can sense an idea of it.
So @Bukbunabinars, @Violatie, @Toffeenix, @Balandėliai, @Jochem van Hees, @Mr. Thistle, and anyone else who wants to weigh in a opinion here, are you Include or Exclude for now.
Personally I am
Exclude Thomediter (talk) 22:37, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In the meantime, I'll leave them out, but the quicker the responses, the quicker we can see if there's a consensus Thomediter (talk) 22:38, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  1. Include — IмSтevan talk 22:38, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Definitely want to include. Bukbunabinars (talk) 05:00, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. For me, Include Violatie (talk) 05:13, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. includilo 82.51.69.158 (talk) 06:47, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Happy to include here. Toffeenix (talk) 02:39, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  6. Include Yoyo360 (talk) 06:54, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Include Balandėliai (talk) 08:46, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Alright, although I still disagree with the decision, it is clear that there is as of right now, more support to include Montenegro as a confirmed participant. As there are no specific guidelines, or any big protest apart from me to exclude the counrty, it makes no sense for me to stand hard on the issue.
Therefore, if the information stays as it is now, I will stop reverting edits which puts Montenegro in the participants lists.
Thanks for participating in the talk, and I am happy it remained largely civil.
Have a nice day Thomediter (talk) 10:21, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
buona giornata 82.51.69.158 (talk) 10:32, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Comment: This is completely different as this document explicitly confirms Montenegro's desire to compete, as it mentions Montenegro's participation at Eurovision 2025 multiple times, including the very header which says "Rulebook on the procedure on the selection of RTCG's representative at the Eurovision Song Contest 2025". Last year, it was reported that North Macedonia was going to return based off a budget proposal which was not adopted, this however is an official document, which has been adopted/stamped, meaning Montenegro confirmed their intention on competing — IмSтevan talk 15:27, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The document explicitly confirms Montenegro's participation. There's no point in arguing there... Yoyo360 (talk) 11:25, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Good evening @Pdhadam, @Jochem van Hees and @Sir Kenneth Kho, I hope are you well 🙂.

I'm writing to ask if any of you three can change the Infobox map back to the one without the colored Montenegro (the Montenegrin broadcaster has not yet officially announced its participation) until an official announcement is made? Unfortunately, I don't know how to do this, hence my request.

And could you also do it on Wikipedia's 2025 Eurovision Song Contest article in French?

Thank you in advance. T931201 (talk) 00:07, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Reverted it for now, awaiting the conclusion of this discussion (the map is on Wikimedia Commons: commons:File:ESC 2025 Map.svg). But I personally do think that the sources we have are ample for putting Montenegro on the list of countries intending to participate. ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 17:32, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
So where is this all going? We have something like 3 to 7 in favour of keeping it. Yoyo360 (talk) 18:52, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In my opinion, the broadcaster does not need to "officially announce its participation", as the wording above the table is "publicly confirmed their intention", which they have done. Sir Kenneth Kho (talk) 21:33, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah I’d agree, it feels like we’re moving the goalposts just for one country because other countries like Malta, Denmark, Finland, and Norway were initially confirmed by their national finals being confirmed to be used for Eurovision again, but these broadcasters didn’t “publicly announce their participation,” they publicly confirmed their intention to participate like you said. Violatie (talk) 21:37, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
anch'io sono d'accordo perchè il documento RTCG specifica "concorso Montesong 2024 selezione per l'eurovision 2025" e ciò significa che hanno in programma la partecipa 82.51.69.158 (talk) 06:16, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I’m seeing a lot of discussion here about how Montenegro hasn’t actually confirmed its intention to participate because they never “announced participation,” however I feel that we need a serious discussion as to what counts as an announcement/confirmation of participation and why a document released by a national broadcaster that specifically states they will participate at Eurovision doesn’t count as an announcement/confirmation of participation.

Some countries included in the current participation list (such as Austria) never properly announced their participation following the criteria we’ve set for Montenegro. In Austria’s case, a newspaper discusses Austria’s selection process and they’ve been added to the article.

As such I believe we should come up with a criteria for what counts as a confirmation or announcement of participation at Eurovision.

My own criteria would simply consist of the following - Document or statement made by a national broadcaster stating intention to participate, and rules set out for national selection published that state it will be used to select the song and/or artist that will represent their nation at Eurovision. Violatie (talk) 05:12, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I second this. Announcing a national contest in itself is not a confirmation, but if the rules lay out that it will select the Eurovision entry, it counts. That is, if an official document that has been adopted confirms intention on participating in Eurovision, it counts — IмSтevan talk 06:59, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
To clarify, North Macedonia's budget last year that was used as a reference was a mere proposal, so it shouldn't have counted; meanwhile, this is an official adopted document, so it counts — IмSтevan talk 11:41, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Same opinion here. Yoyo360 (talk) 11:25, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Have to add that eurovoix source don't consider it confirmation. Also Eurovisionworld does neither. Thomediter (talk) 12:42, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Is the broadcaster itself not considered a more reliable source when it comes to their participation? — IмSтevan talk 13:23, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Why are you ignoring the fact that the source from the national broadcaster (RTCG) where they explicitly confirm their participation at Eurovision 2025? It almost feels like you’re distorting the information at hand to fit your opinion based on a fan blog that has got the information wrong (which Eurovoix has done before). Violatie (talk) 21:06, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, the wording above the table is "publicly confirmed", not "publicly proposed". Sir Kenneth Kho (talk) 10:43, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Comment: For now, I have commented out all countries which have been included on the same basis Montenegro is excluded on (confirming a national final that will select the Eurovision entry), or that have an even weaker reference, until this is settled, although I think this shouldn't have been a debate in the first place. We should create a guideline that will be followed in the future regarding confirmations of participation. — IмSтevan talk 08:42, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Restored everything including Montenegro, as consensus seems to have been reached — IмSтevan talk 10:40, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I propose using the plain text meaning of the wording above the table "publicly confirmed their intention" which commands presumed consensus. There are four elements:

1. In public, not necessarily official

2. Confirmed, not merely proposed

3. The broadcaster, not anyone else nor leaked

4. Intent for Eurovision, not local

Sir Kenneth Kho (talk) 10:59, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Sir Kenneth Kho I like this suggestion but there's one catch. There's a talk below about France and how the broadcaster has not publicly released anything about their participation. Yet several websites have confirmed French participation because, as said below as well, many fan media contact the broadcasters to get confirmations. So in your criteria, does that count? Because that's not technically the broadcaster publicly releasing the news. And that would change quite a lot of how work is done here. Yoyo360 (talk) 11:46, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think such informal statements count because they are meant for the public and the broadcaster made them, but only if they are worded in a confirming manner. Sir Kenneth Kho (talk) 11:56, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Montenegro

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please add montenegro it confirmed participation https://rtcg.me/upload//media/2024/6/29/15/25/530/1813761/Pravilnik_o_proceduri_izbora_kompozicije_za_Pjesmu_Evrovizije.pdf 109.245.221.217 (talk) 17:30, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

French participation not yet officially confirmed

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Hello everyone. That's good, you've got a sense of humor, @Szyign. Meanwhile, Eurofestivales is a blog just like the one I quoted, and it's no more reliable than the blog I quoted. Besides, I don't make degradations, I modify the article so that it corresponds to reality. Give me a source to prove that France Télévisions has confirmed its participation in Eurovision 2025. I also ask for the opinion of other Internet users @Imsteven, @Violatie, @Yoyo360 … ). T931201 (talk) 22:59, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

France TV confirmed their participation in a DM with a user on Facebook, asking if France planned to participate, and if they would be using internal selection again. Not the most high up source but still a confirmation. No idea how to attach an image on here, but the message read:
"Bonjour,
Vous vous interrogez sur le représentant français du prochain Concours de l'Eurovision.
Je vous confirme que Le Concours Eurovision de la chanson est un événement annuel diffusé sur France 2. Néanmoins, il est trop tôt pour évoquer la représentante ou le représentant du concours 2025.
Je vous invite à suivre les résaux sociaux de l'Eurovision France pour vous tenir informé:
Facebook : Compte officiel de l'Eurovision France
https://www.facebook.com/EurovisionFrance/ (MP possible)
X (ex twitter) : https://twitter.com/EurovisionF2
Instagram : compte offciel de l'Eurovision France :
https://www.instagram.com/eurovisionfrance/
Bien cordialement,
Alexandre"
You can translate the whole thing if you want, but the gist of it is saying "Eurovision is an annual broadcast on France 2, it's too early to say who our participant for the 2025 contest will be. You can follow our social medias to stay informed (On how we'll be selecting our artist)" Based on the fact that they're confirming the selection of an artist, I'm going to call that a confirmation of their participation. Defeatedink05 (talk) 03:02, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I would say "Eurovision is an annual broadcast on France 2" is a confirmation. Sir Kenneth Kho (talk) 13:58, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In the specific context of this message, I can't agree. Some countries broadcast without participating, so technically....... Should we consider Netherlands in every year because they're legally obliged to broadcast Eurovision ? Of course not. Yoyo360 (talk) 14:02, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You are correct, the statement is pretty weak. In addition, they only say "it's too early to say who our participant for the 2025 contest will be" without confirming there will be a participant even if it is not named yet. Sir Kenneth Kho (talk) 14:23, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
How they’re legally obligated to do it? They aren’t. They can withdraw if they want. It’s not the same case as French cause they literally said: yes it’s annual broadcast but we’re not sure yet how we will choose representative. So they will, but later. It’s not that deep, you guys have a problem with too shredding everything… Szyign (talk) 19:02, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In the french original there's no actual future tense here. It says something more along the lines of "It is too early to talk about our representative for 2025". Which you can argue is still pretty solid I admit. I was just being technical for the sake of It here. Also, as surprising as it is, the Dutch broadcasters must broadcast Eurovision every year. See here. But that's not the point of the argument. Yoyo360 (talk) 19:43, 9 August 2024 (UTC) [reply]
France TV has generally confirmed its participation to fan blogs and fans in general through social media, so one can assume that this is how Eurofestivales got their article out on France’s participation (given Eurofestivales and some other fan blogs reach out to national broadcasters to make their articles), ultimately this source just depends on if we think using Eurofestivales as a source is reliable enough to be used here. Fan blogs like Eurovoix consider them reliable, it just depends on if we agree or not. Violatie (talk) 05:21, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Defeatedink05 Thank you for the information I didn't have. On the other hand, I'm not sure it's a reliable enough source to confirm French participation in Eurovision 2025, especially since if I follow what you said, the French broadcaster talks about "annual broadcast" and not participation.  And to say "it's too early to say who our candidate will be in 2025" shows that no real decision has been taken on participation in 2025.
@Violatie, what bothers me about the twenty or so sources (Eurovoix, ESCBeat ... ) announcing France's participation in Eurovision 2025, is that they all take Eurofestivales as their source, which itself gives the information without quoting its sources, without putting up a screenshot of the e-mail from France Télévisions confirming this information, or without putting up a screenshot of the said private message confirming participation, hence the fact that I think we should keep a certain reserve and wait for more reliable confirmation. T931201 (talk) 12:10, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah fair enough I can agree to that, it seems like the wording isn’t strong enough to actually confirm participation and the source, while not necessarily unreliable, doesn’t provide information on the supposed “confirmation.” Violatie (talk) 12:42, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And EscToday, Eurovoix and many other outlets put screenshots? No they don’t. But you believe them. It’s so double standards Szyign (talk) 19:06, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not considering Eurofestivales as reliable is just being prejudiced to them, they did report correctly for a long time now… cmon it’s so annoying Szyign (talk) 19:04, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
To be honest the edits you have made to this end don't feel like they're being made in good faith. A bunch that were made yesterday were only reverting one part of the article, either the table or the number of countries. This feels, to me, like an attempt to prove some kind of odd point? ESCToday functionally does the same thing every year with confirmations from countries like Georgia and Moldova and that's always accepted as fine. I have no idea what the issue is here. Toffeenix (talk) 13:10, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Toffeenix, all the modifications are in good faith and here, the problem is that the sources you use to add France as a participating country all have the source Eurofestivales which gives the information without giving its sources (no screenshot of the message that would have sent France Télévisions to confirm participation and no link to an official publication on the site or social networks of the broadcaster or the French delegation). As such, traceability is not verifiable and therefore the information does not have to be provided at this time. T931201 (talk) 13:33, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Show me any portal that shows screenshots, this is nonsense Szyign (talk) 19:08, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with Szyign, this is nonsense. You're now reverting any edit that says otherwise, that's absolutely not necessary here. No shame, but drop it now. Toffeenix (talk) 02:52, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Toffeenix This is hardly nonsense and I only cancel information which is not sourced with sources whose traceability is verifiable or for which the remarks are not clear/explicit enough which is the case of France in the current time. Besides, many people agree with me (@Sir Kenneth Kho, @Violatie, @Yoyo360 … ). T931201 (talk) 09:03, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
will look into WP:AVOIDEDITWAR now because this is frankly getting ridiculous Toffeenix (talk) 09:43, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Toffeenix, the behavior of same is ridiculous yes ... T931201 (talk) 10:13, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I know that Eurofestivales reported correctly… because I was the one who asked French broadcaster on Messenger (since they didn’t answer on email) if they will participate, they responded me that they will but don’t know yet how they will choose representative, then I did screenshots in PC and Phone and send it to Eurofestivales. Your blog doesn’t know it cause they didn’t even bother to send a message to them, lol.
there you can see it: https://imgur.com/a/QKvS22O Szyign (talk) 19:00, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Szyign, in the response that France Télévisions gave you, it is marked "an annual broadcast" which proves that France Télévisions will broadcast Eurovision 2025 but not necessarily that it will participate in it. France Télévisions also says that it is too early to mention the representative in 2025, a sign that participation is not official. Pending a more reliable press release, it is preferable not to mention France. And once again, Eurofestivales reported poorly since they didn't even put the screenshot in question. T931201 (talk) 19:18, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@StephenOrsos2024, I invite you to read this conversation. T931201 (talk) 19:20, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Jesus Christ at this point we need to remove the whole list of countries cause they might change their mind on my god! Seriously you should stop trying to find a reason to remove something so badly. No it’s not a sign it’s not official it’s a sign they didn’t start looking for their representative, it’s your deduction which in your reasoning also is non sense. And again, what about Eurovoix, EscToday and basically any other media that doesn’t post screenshots. Why this only works for Eurofestivales? You are choosing who is okay and who is not? What is this about? Szyign (talk) 19:57, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm gonna go from my personal point of view. Before this french confirmation stuff I had never heard of Eurofestivales. Eurofestivales isn't even on Wikipedia:WikiProject Eurovision/Sources so personally I was neutral tending slightly negative. The information has been repeated by others but some are missing, including ESCToday. So I'm not fully confident if some are leaving the info out. The fact that the actual source of this info is you makes it worse. You're actively defending it, which makes sense. But 1. Your screen could have been altered (unlikely but technically possible), and 2. The fact that they didn't get that info themselves makes it even less reliable. Sorry not sorry but you are not a reliable source. Yoyo360 (talk) 20:34, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Then message French Television on Messenger and see for yourself. I also send them info about Latvia and Italy, both got later 100% confirmed. Szyign (talk) 20:44, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Szyign I am not a practicing Christian and the problem here is not that countries can change their minds in the meantime but rather that Eurofestivales does not cite its sources (unlike Eurovoix for example which generally gives as a source the publication of the broadcaster of the country in question on the networks or on the website as in the attached case) and that the response sent to you by France Télévisions only confirms a broadcast of Eurovision in 2025, not a confirmation of official participation. T931201 (talk) 20:54, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It literally confirms participation. I asked them for the participation, they replied yeah it's an annual event in France and we didn't find a participant yet cause get what - nobody does in this part of the year. Your actions are not done in a good faith since you're removing countries which are confirmed by their broadcasters. I don't know what you want from them, they have to write it on their forehead "YES WE WILL PARTICIPATE" and you will be satisfied? You can argue with every single source like that, for example oh no ESCToday posted about Sweden and they didn't put screenshot, they of course lied and now we have to remove Sweden. Stop destryoing the page, for real. Szyign (talk) 20:58, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Szyign No, it's you who's interpreting this reply as an official announcement of participation, but it's nothing of the sort. They're just saying that they'll continue to broadcast the contest as they do every year and that there's no information about a French representative at Eurovision 2025, a sign that the confirmation is nothing official. All my changes are made in good faith and I'm only deleting countries whose broadcasters haven't yet confirmed anything (in this case France) and many people agree with me. It's you who's destroying the article by to add information (because you're involved in this massive dissemination of unofficial information) and which you're misinterpreting. T931201 (talk) 21:18, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Who's the many people you talking about? Are they in the talk page with us? I don't see them at all. You have a serious problem I believe. You forgot to remove half of the page and find some reasons to do so. You're misinterpreting them by adding your own words to them. Hope you will stop destroying the project because you're doing nothing great but the chaos. Szyign (talk) 21:22, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We can cite @Sir Kenneth Kho, @Violatie, @Yoyo360 etc. so no, I don’t have problem (by the way, you will avoid insulting me). I am not deleting the entire article or even half of the article but simply the information for which the traceability of the sources cannot be verified and/or whose sources are not explicit/clear enough. I am not adding any words, I am taking the answer that was given to you word for word. And it's you who must stop destroying the article. T931201 (talk) 21:31, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You must stop destroying the article. Chceck sources for Sweden, Germany, Latvia, Italy and many others. They work the same way. But you don't care cause you want to remove France so badly. Get some job. Szyign (talk) 21:36, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You won. I'm so done reverting your vandalism, do what you want, destroy the page as hard as you want. You're acting like a child doing it all over again. I have better work to do then fight with you. Have fun! Szyign (talk) 21:38, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Szyign That's it, stop modifying the article if it means destroying it like this. T931201 (talk) 21:39, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sweden, Germany, Latvia, Italy are all backed with sources saying the specific broadcaster confirmed its participation. French source is only including France in a list, without further elaboration, with two people in the comments arguing against it, and with me and @Violatie eventually arguing against it after examining the specific wording. Sir Kenneth Kho (talk) 21:59, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I really don't understand why you want to remove France when Latvia and Italy were confirmed the same way. Can u explain? Kwintesencjax (talk) 21:44, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
this discusion is pointless Szyign is right. France will take part in ESC 2025 use your logic please not everything must be written directly and u should and stop creating chaos. Chaos is just what you are doing at the moment. give in, stop arguing and let us type France. Aaestikk (talk) 21:50, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Aaestikk This space is for discussion so no discussion is useless, regretting contradicting you. There is certainly a strong chance that France will participate in Eurovision 2025 (France has always participated in Eurovision except in 1974 and 1982) but there is no confirmation of participation in the response from France Télévisions, simply a confirmation of the broadcast of Eurovision 2025. Except on Wikipedia, each information added must be accompanied by a source clearly explaining the information and whose traceability can be verified which is not the case (yet) for the France. So before writing, read France Télévisions’ response more carefully! T931201 (talk) 22:00, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"because you're involved in this massive dissemination of unofficial information"? What the hell. Yeah, France Televisions lied now. You're seriously acting crazy. Just accept they confirmed it, I don't know what they did to you, but you're really trying hard to remove them from the page i see. You don't care about Sweden, Italy, Germany and many other countries that got confirmed the same way, interesting. Szyign (talk) 21:30, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
France Télévisions did not lie, it answered you and you misinterpreted its answer, nuance. You are the one who needs to stop destroying articles, there are many people who agree with me so Stop. T931201 (talk) 21:38, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
U see what u want T931201, some other countries have the same way confirmations of participation on the English wikipedia. making pointless changes don't have any sense Aaestikk (talk) 22:01, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Aaestikk the difference between the other countries and France is that the other countries were accompanied by sources (whose traceability and reliability are proven) to confirm that the broadcasters had confirmed which is not the case for France. My modifications are not useless unlike your attacks. T931201 (talk) 22:06, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
btw "NOT YET" doesn't mean "won't". And stop behave like child bc you've deleted part of our discussion Aaestikk (talk) 22:16, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Aaestikk Not yet does not mean that they will not actually do it, but that they have not yet done it and therefore we must wait. And if you want me not to delete parts of the message, stop provoking unnecessarily. T931201 (talk) 22:21, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
when we were kind for you, u was like "i'm not gonna stop deleting french participation" i may be nicer but pls stop doing the same thing one milion times Aaestikk (talk) 22:28, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Aaestikk Deleting the French participation is not nice or mean, it is just modifying the article so that it corresponds to the reality of things. Furthermore, avoid provoking because it will get you nowhere at all. T931201 (talk) 22:38, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

My 2c is that we have confirmation from a perennially reliable source in Eurovoix, so this should be included. It doesn't matter if it's citing another source, Eurovoix in themselves are a reliable source and as Eurofestivales are not directly an unreliable source (just an unknown quantity), this isn't an issue. Also, a lot of the behaviour here is a clear violation of Wikipedia rules.

I hope never to have to see a discussion that's descended to this on this talk page again. ser! (chat to me - see my edits) 10:34, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Ser! Insults against me are certainly not comments in good faith, hence the deletion. As for Eurovoix, it cites as a source Eurofestivales which itself takes as a source an alleged message from France Télévisions in which it only confirms the broadcast of Eurovision 2025 so neither Eurofestivales nor Eurovoix are reliable sources in the present case. Please analyze the situation better before attacking me. T931201 (talk) 10:37, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Did you even read the link I sent? You removed comments by another user asking a question about why France wasn't on the page - there were no insults by StephenOrsos2024 against you. That's not your place to do. This isn't an "attack" on you, this is asking you to follow basic Wikipedia guidelines... ser! (chat to me - see my edits) 10:39, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Ser! Yes I read it and the reason why I deleted it is a simple mistake, because I wanted to delete an insulting comment towards me and I included the question without doing so on purpose, I apologize for that. On the other hand, I do not behave like a God, I asked for advice beforehand here by presenting my arguments in a polite and respectful manner and many people agreed with me, hence my modifications. T931201 (talk) 10:52, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
T931201, You’re not the one who is deciding when source is reliable and when is not. Eurovoix is counted as reliable source so it should be included. Szyign (talk) 10:47, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Szyign It's not just me who decided but many Internet users, and Eurovoix is ​​reliable in most cases but not in this case. T931201 (talk) 10:57, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Who are they many internet users were talking about. It’s only you who constantly revert it. And I’m not the only one who thinks France is confirmed, you reverted 11 times during 24 hours, that should show you that you’re wrong. Szyign (talk) 12:05, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I apologize for saying that. It was just frustrating that T931201 was constantly reverting everything because he’s acting like a God who is always right. Szyign (talk) 10:45, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
For what it's worth if you encounter an editor like this ever again, you'd be as well going to either WP:3RR if they revert more than 4 times in 24h or WP:ANI if they're just being disruptive without violating that. Admins will usually handle them pretty quickly. ser! (chat to me - see my edits) 10:52, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Ser! I wouldn't call it a violation because many people agree with me and I tried to defuse the disagreement before applying my changes. Plus, the violation works both ways... T931201 (talk) 11:00, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Where are the many people you’re talking about. Only you remove it. Leave your bubble. Szyign (talk) 12:06, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Kosovo🇽🇰

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Kosovo will not participate in Eurovision 2025 82.51.69.158 (talk) 08:12, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Croatia

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Why is Croatia still included when the reference doesn't support its inclusion?

"Štengl said that the new process starts as soon as they rest a little. We are going to work on new contract proposals, open a new competition with the hope that performers of all different types of music, young and old, will apply for the wave LET 3, Baby Lasagna. Whoever has a good product should apply, he said."

That statement not a confirmation of participation, only that there will be some sort of a national contest, likely Dora — IмSтevan talk 20:23, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Just because he didn't use the word "Eurovision" in that sentence doesn't mean he wasn't talking about Eurovision in the overall context. The whole conversation is about Eurovision, not about Dora directly. On top of that, he even emphasized the success of the last two representatives, this success is an obvious reference to the result at Eurovision. It's obvious that the "new process" refers to the next choice of representative. Really looking for forceful reasons has nothing to do with taking care of this article, but only damaging it by removing correct information. Szyign (talk) 21:04, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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