Talk:Far-right politics/Archive 14

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Hard-right? PT. 2

Should there be a delineation between "hard-right" politics and "far-right" politics, or should we treat them as the same? I notice, for instance, that The New York Times conspicuously eschews the label "far-right" when discussing people like Matt Gaetz, but does not do so when referring to a presidential candidate in Argentina. I imagine other editors of this page are far more informed than I am on these two terms and their idiosyncrasies, but I figured I'd ask about it. Delukiel (talk) 00:34, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

"Hard right" is one of those sources that can mean different things by publication; in my experience it's not usually synonymous with the far-right, and sits between it and just old regular "right-wing". That said, it's nebulous at best. It's likely that the NYT doesn't consider Matt Gaetz far-right (or is more careful about using that to describe American politicians). In short, I don't think it should be treated as the same. — Czello ^(music) 17:18, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

The extreme right is the same as the hard-right because there are references that indicate it, there is no bibliographic support that says otherwise. AmigodeMassa (talk) 12:59, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

As above, it's not ubiquitous in sourcing. — Czello ^(music) 13:06, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

For example, in this reference from the week, it is indicated that both Cambio and Vox belong to the hard-right, while Javier Milei belongs to the far-right, therefore they are synonyms since I imagine that all people believe that Vox is even more right-wing than Javier Milei, however the hard-right classification is used. With this I want to affirm that they are exactly the same AmigodeMassa (talk) 13:13, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

That's WP:OR — Czello ^(music) 13:32, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

First we have to understand that hard-right is the same as extreme right, something that all the dictionaries in the world say. I attach examples:

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/hard-right

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/es/diccionario/ingles-espanol/the-hard-right

https://www.thefreedictionary.com/hard+right

https://educalingo.com/en/dic-en/hard-right

https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/hard%20right Monito rapido (talk) 15:45, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

Hello Monito rapido, I thought I'd find you here.

I see you've reproduced here some content that you posted during our discussion over your assertion that the Traditional Unionist Voice party was a "far-right" party, viz. TUV Political Position.

Your statement "First we have to understand that hard-right is the same as extreme right " seems to me to fall into the category of what the Wikipedia Manual of Style calls "Instructional and Presumptious language" [1] .

For what it's worth, my own undertanding of the recent increase in the use of the term "hard right" by journalists is that they are substituting it for the term "far right", not because they want to but because their readers are questioning the use of such a term.

My own point of reference when it comes to European political parties and their political nature is the following website: Wolfram Nordsiek, comparative study of party systems in Europe. Here is their own description of what their website is about: "Parties and Elections in Europe provides a comprehensive database about political parties, elections and governments in all European countries. The website contains the results of parliamentary elections from more than 100 countries and autonomous regions in Europe. The parties are classified according to their political orientation. Historical data can be found in the archive.The private website was established by Wolfram Nordsieck in 1997. The editor began his comparative study of party systems, parliamentary elections and constitutional laws in the late 1980s. Thereafter he studied law and history at the Heinrich Heine University Düsseldorf. Today he practices law."

They include such categories as "Far-right politics" , "Right-wing populism", "Nationalism" and "Social Conservatism". BrownBowler (talk) 17:58, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

what is your point? Monito rapido (talk) 18:27, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

Monito rapido, I'm not trying to make a point, I'm just trying to do my best to elucidate a subject and to provide more information for discussion. At the same time, I added an opinion in case anyone was interested in what I had to say. That's what Wikipedia is about. I was criticising your style of discussion, that's true. BrownBowler (talk) 20:19, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

All of them are the same:

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/ultra-right

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/far-right Monito rapido (talk) 15:52, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Dictionaries as sources. Doug Weller talk 18:43, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

I'm not going to use those references for anything, I'm only using those references for saying that the far-right, hard-right, extreme-right and ultra-right are the same and have the same meaning. Monito rapido (talk) 18:48, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

The problem is that the various terms are used inconsistently in reliable sources. News articles, whose writers are not experts, often chose their descriptions for brevity or unconscious bias. Authoritarians we like are hard right, while those we don't are far right. TFD (talk) 18:56, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

You are stating that it is the same. the term must be added equally, or as a synonym, or as a faction of the far right Monito rapido (talk) 19:36, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

No I am not. I am saying that the terms are used inconsistently. Someone could call Hitler and Rand Paul far right. Or they could call HItler far right and Paul hard right. Or they could call HItler extreme right and Paul far right. So they are using these terms differently. They may for example distinguish HItler and Paul or they may group them together. They are both to the right of mainstream politics but far apart within that range. TFD (talk) 23:57, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

I see that Monito rapido has been blocked by admin for sockpuppetry. Here is the comment from the admin clerk "Registered shortly after CulturalHuya and AmigodeMassa were blocked, exhibits precisely the same type of editing, with focus on far-right politics. Like master, seems to use Spanish language. Technical competence from first edit, continued to edit the same articles as master and socks.". No doubt to return very soon. BrownBowler (talk) 10:18, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

I struck through edits of both of the socks. Doug Weller talk 12:05, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

References

"The Far Right Is Growing Stronger—and Has a Plan for 2024"

Title of this article[2]. Note that it says the Overton window has shifted:" Although the alt right collapsed, its goal of shifting the “Overton window”—the spectrum of what is considered legitimate political discourse—succeeded. Today, white supremacist, anti-LGBTQ+, and even antisemitic conspiracy theories have become so prevalent that what was taboo even in 2018 is accepted by many as not only normal but acceptable." Doug Weller talk 15:59, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

The alt-right article points out how even though Charlottesville caused the alt-right to shatter, it had a ripple effect of radicalizing alt-righters into terrorism (Atomwaffen experienced great growth post-Cville). And now Republicans sort of occupy the position alt-right did a few years ago: White Genocide rhetoric is mainstream in GOP, etc.RKT7789 (talk) 16:30, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

There is no consensus on the reliability of the Daily Beast and no reason why the opinion of the journalist who wrote the story has any significance. Notice he says that the mainstream has ignored the growing strength of extremism, which suggests he is presenting a minority view.

I am not saying he is wrong, but I would need a better source to determine that. TFD (talk) 17:59, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

The volume, for lack of a better term, of Far-right rhetoric from the GOP in the mainstream has changed over the years, particularly since Trump's election, and has been been increasingly discussed by academics and scholars since the J6 attack. Finding sources that show some consensus on the subject of the extent to which the far-right is shaping or controlling the GOP platform in the mainstream would be most helpful. Currently we have separate sources that seemingly coalesce, but the GOP's mainstream platform hasn't changed since 2016. DN (talk) 01:08, 21 January 2024 (UTC)