Talk:Ferdinand Magellan/Archive 3

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

mistake

There's a mistake in his early life. Says his father died in 1500 but then says he was 10 (1490) when his parents died and he was made page — Preceding unsigned comment added by 119.161.161.122 (talk) 10:25, 6 November 2012 (UTC) <?php define("FACEBOOK","facebook"); echo constant("FACEBOOK"); ?> — Preceding unsigned comment added by 112.201.52.106 (talk) 01:02, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

Place of birth

The place of birth is either Porto (the same place of Henry, the Navigator) or Sabrosa. If you refer Sabrosa in the vignette, then you should explain more about it because the authenticity of the documentation used to support the claim is under dispute. His family lived in oporto so this is likely the POB. Sabrosa is a remote region in the Douro Valley where his family had a state and some lands. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.179.138.67 (talk) 17:36, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.157.110.11 (talk) 22:11, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

Religion!!

Ferdinand followed the religion Roman Catholic! That is important and MUST be put in his bio!!!

67.49.59.166 (talk)___67.49.59.166 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 15:38, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

"Overwintered"

Why did Magellen "overwinter" from November through March in Brazil? Winter in Brazil is in June, and January is the height of summer. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.116.25.16 (talk) 23:10, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

To reply to this, Magellan didn't overwinter in Brazil from November to March, he did so at Port St Julian from March to October (which was already clear from the article in June 2013). Just to clarify... Moonraker12 (talk) 22:25, 22 August 2018 (UTC)

Edit request on 7 September 2013

In the final paragraph, please change to proper grammar as required for the statement "in the Moon" and "in Mars" to "on the Moon" and "on Mars". Zillylizzy (talk) 00:31, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

Done with thanks, NiciVampireHeart 12:30, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 10 September 2013

Organised is spelled organized.

129.113.50.164 (talk) 19:12, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

Organise and organize are the exact same and neither is more correct than the other.[1] Organize is common in North America and Organise is common outside of North America. Similar to "favorite vs favourite". However if an article is identified as being written in one over the other then we would correct it as such but this is not the case for this article. For an example of a certain style of english see Talk:Prince Harry of Wales. — -dainomite   21:18, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

Introduction and circumnavigation

An editor, I think Mateo Flecha, made ​​a change in one the first few paragraphs, putting the phrase (with ElCano) this way: "Magellan...who became known for having organised the first circumnavigation of the Earth, by Juan Sebastián Elcano". ("To avoid confusion"). We understand, but there was no confusion. The original sentence says "organized" (did not say "made it", but if said, would be well - in great part at least - and did not say "completed") He happened to "completed" it in multiple other trips, but it's another story. Only says "organized".

Understand the point about "organize" and was careful not change the meaning there, but I found it strange (i) that circumnavigation (organization of it) is highlighted in the first (and most read) paragraphs as Magellan's main feat, (ii) that it is also said that his expedition completed the circumnavigation after his death, and that after this there is no mention to who was the one that commanded that expedition to complete that circumnavigation.

Furthermore, how could have Magellan organized (a priori) a circumnavigation trip (the first) if this wasn't his royal commission when leaving Spain? As it is well said (way below) the original purpose of the trip was other more practical (and not this sort of sportive thing) and the circumnavigation was a result of decissions taken after his death, and during the voyage. So I think the article's wording tries again to be precise in saying that "he organized a trip that resulted (should we add "fortuitously"?) in the first circumnavigation".

In other words, I also assume good faith in the Editor, but believe that the introduction of the article, besides being as accurate with Magellan's relationship with the first circumnavigation of the Earth, and granting him no more and no less credit that he deserves, should also name who was the one who really completed this circumnavigation , even if this is explained with more detail below. Otherwise the reader, if not reading very carefully ("organize", "resulted" and other key words) and only reading the first paragraphs may receive the false idea that Magellan was the first circumnavigator of the Earth. In fact I had also to correct the infobox where it said that Magellan was best known for having "captained the first circumnavigation of the world" (was it his ghost who captained the last third?)

Regarding circumnavigations completed with different trips in time and expeditions/ships, it seems an interesting point which deserves better explanation in the article. I am not sure that is what's behind the concept of circumnavigation, and deffinitely as you say it isn't the ciorcumnavigation referred in the article wich clearly is the Magallanes-Elcano one.

In all, Magellan is a great historic figure, with enough everlasting merits, as to make all efforts to avoid confusing the reader with others that aren't his.Mateo Flecha (talk) 19:23, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

Mateo, we are in complete agreement. Obviously I agree with the mention (above or bellow, or both, in the article (the argument was another)) of Juan Sebastian Elcano, completing the circum-navigation and making the circumnavigation. I hope there is no misunderstanding between us. I will back here to this talk page, maybe, with more time. But I think this answer is enough to understanding between us. P.S: Magellan in Moluccas is a matter of controversy. There are at least one or two sources(?) that sustain it, if I remember (Fernão de Oliveira?), but it is controversial. Any way, this is a technically different kind of a world periplus, perhaps, also important.--LuzoGraal (talk) 19:43, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

Luzo, thanks for your constructive/kind approach. I've understood that your arguments were also related, as were mine with Magellan, to the accuracy when referring Elcano's contribution to circumnavigation. I'll be glad to learn more about that possible world periplus, which is of course relevant.Mateo Flecha (talk) 06:45, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

This sentence (we assume in good faith by the Editor) is in disagreement with all the vast literature on the subject and is ambiguous (not to say "wrong"), giving an image of Magellan as a kind of owner of expeditions undertaken only by others or by another, in the case Juan Sebastian Elcano, giving a "false" or ambiguous image of a somebody without participation in it (I know this is not the intended meaning, I believe), totally in contradiction with the general historiography and the most world historians (ie, per se, it was more than enough for removal or restored without further arguments). But reinforcing: if it was to be more accurate and more in line with the generally historiography, the phrase would be "completed by Juan Sebastian Elcano", but that would be a mere repetition of the phrase or references already placed below in the article. And these are the first paragraphs of the biographical article of Ferdinand Magellan - article focuses obviously on the expedition around the world that gave him worldwide fame - but an article about Magellan, and their personal achievements etc.(if it was an article about "circumnavigation (only) or about the navigator Juan Sebastian de Elcano, and less ambiguous, maybe) - And we speak here in the first two paragraphs of an article (as a whole) not only about a trip or other feats, but on a historical personality.

Magellan was twice in Malaysia regions and the coast of Sumatra (western Indonesia), with Diogo Lopes de Sequeira and Afonso de Albuquerque etc. (If, beyond that, accompanied his friend Francisco Serrão, with António Abreu, to the Moluccas, before his return to Portugal, is still a matter of discussion because there is no survivor mention of his presence in the expedition).

The phrase has in itself the first circumnavigation, referring obviously to the circumnavigation of Magellan-Elcano (no doubt and no other), but as the "first" we have also the "circumnavigation" of Magellan travels or his personal tour around the world, which was the first in fact, being the circumnavigation expedition for Charles V and Spain (or Castile), referred there, in fact, further part of the voyages and life of Magellan (i.e., the personal periplus of Magellan around the world) and being on another plane obviously, in addition to the "first", the "second" on personal "circum-navigations" of the navigators and crew men that completed it, like the great navigator Juan Sebastian Elcano (and still are the third and fourth - for the survivors abandoned by Elcano in Cape Verde, brought by Portuguese later, and some survivors of the nao Trinidad, in the Moluccas, brought to Portugal by the Portuguese via Moluccas and via India, later).

And even confining it only to expedition that ended in Circum-navigation at the service of Spain, why is it so attributed to Magellan by historians and traditional popular culture, to Elcano and others also, but to Magellan? (Good question and controversial, since was Elcano who made it or completed what became a circumnavigation).

1. Because was Magellan who conceived the voyage (was not intended to circumnavigate, but want to get to the Indonesian region, wanted and aimed to reach a region where he had been before (before, by the east, this journey by west), which implied his own (and some companions) circumnavigation, which actually they did. Magellan was fully aware of it, through his plan - and took it out, reaching Asia.

2nd Maybe because Pigaffeta, one of the few survivors of the voyage (and completed it) gives the credit to Magellan (about "circum-navigation"), for the same reasons above.

3rd Magellan was captain general (and who indicated the direction) in about two-thirds of the expedition, and in the unexplored part of the world for Europeans. Elcano, on the other hand, as captain of the expedition (in the surviving ship, opting for the west, contrary to the men of the nau Trinidad), in about one third of the expedition, and only in waters already navigated by Europeans. But Elcano makes a great and brave direct navigation south of the equator in the Indian Ocean, to avoid the most used routes and bases of the Portuguese India armadas and ships, to remember btw, although prior Portuguese expeditions had already also traversed and explored the southern Indian Ocean. --LuzoGraal (talk) 15:51, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

Magellan´s mission was to find a route to the Spice Islands sailing westwards. Elcano was who truly decided to circumnavigate the world. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 176.84.109.154 (talk) 19:01, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

How many crew?

Under "The Fleet", adding up the crew of each of the five ships totals 235. Under "The Crew", it says the crew is "about 270". Under "Survivors", it says "18 of 237".

Which is it, and why the discrepancies? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.93.14.126 (talk) 05:00, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

"Which is it?" The best answer is probably "Nobody knows."

"Why the discrepancies?" The best answer is probably "Differing information gleaned from separate sources. (see e.g., [2] - about 270, [3] - limited to 235 max, [4] - 277).

Also see WP:DUE. This probably ought to be clarified in the article. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 05:24, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

Memorials

Among the geographic places named after Magellan, the southernmost region of Chile should be mentioned. 201.214.215.29 (talk) 17:38, 6 April 2014 (UTC)

I'd like to add my book to secondary sources on this page. *Murphy, Patrick J.; Coye, Ray W. (2013). Mutiny and Its Bounty: Leadership Lessons from the Age of Discovery. Yale University Press. ISBN 9780300170283. {{cite book}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help) Can someone help please?Profpjm (talk) 19:52, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Recent edits to lead

@LuzoGraal:, @Omnipaedista: LuzoGraal, something is not quite right with the text you added:

"Magellan is also known for the first voyages around the Earth, or for his almost complete and preview circumnavigation of the Globe, through his voyages from Europe to the Far East (1505–1512), and from Europe westwards (1519–1521), towards the Malay Archipelago".

I haven't even read the entire article and I know something is wrong.

1) If you're going to say "Magellan is also known for...", followed by two phrases, you shouldn't use "or". If anything, it should be "and", unless the second phrase is simply a re-wording of the first, and I'm not sure it is here, or, if it is, the re-wording is unnecessary.

2) I assume when you say, "the first voyages around the Earth", these voyages are different from the ones mentioned just before this sentence. If they are not, then you don't need to say this. If they are, it should be worded as follows:

"Magellan is also known for the first voyages around the Earth ever made", or

"Magellan is also known for the first voyages ever made around the Earth".

3) "His...preview circumnavigation" is rather silly. I don't believe he knew it was a preview, or considered it a preview. If anything, it should be "partial circumnavigation of the Earth", but then it's not really a circumnavigation, is it? You could say that it was a circumnavigation accomplished in stages, and then mention the stages.

4) I wouldn't use "through...".

5) Regarding the last bit, how could Magellan sail "from Europe westwards...towards the Malay Archipelago", without passing between the southern tip of South American and Antarctica? That sounds like the voyage mentioned just before this, so why "Magellan is also known for"?

I guess I need to read the entire article. Then I will be better able to help on this. Perhaps someone who really knows the history can advise regarding the appropriateness of this added paragraph. CorinneSD (talk) 14:46, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

CorinneSD, The sentence should be more clear. I give you reason. I very much respect the encyclopedia, and I like to have more rigor. I apologize if something failed. Anyway, it must be confined to a few short sentences or paragraph (there). And of course his periplus in the text itself, with more detail(up to a certain point).--LuzoGraal (talk) 21:54, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

More clear now. We can clarify or improve more, maybe - and even add a source if it is the case. And please, be free (of course) to also correct and improve what is necessary from a grammatical point of view. Thanks--LuzoGraal (talk) 22:18, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 June 2015

a Portuguese explorer who organized the Spanish expedition to the East Indies from 1519 to 1522, resulting in the first circumnavigation of the Earth.

Smirnov Oleg1997 (talk) 20:36, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. Cannolis (talk) 21:56, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 September 2015 (Spelling Error)

In the first sentence (about Ferdinand Magellan) , "organised" is spelled wrong; it has a "S" instead of a "Z". Please change the "S" to a "Z" because when I tried to type it, it did a squiggly line underneath it , and I happen to find that very annoying. 206.74.53.52 (talk) 14:14, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Not done: See MOS:ENGVAR. The spelling is consistent throughout the article. Both spellings are in the OED. Bazj (talk) 14:29, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 October 2015 (Small Spelling Error)

Under the heading 'Fleet' it spells Concepcion without any acutes on the letters. However, under the heading 'Return', Concepcion is spelt with an ascending acute over the second 'o', so spelt Concepción. Please check these spellings and change the incorrect one. I think it is spelt with an 'ó' JamesChen2003 (talk) 16:44, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

Edit request

In the list of the survivors who returned to Spain there are some mistakes. Francisco Albo de Rodas was from the Greek island of Chios "near Rodes", as is written in the Archives, not any Rodas of Spain. The same for Miguel de Rodas, who also came from Greece. Source: Juan Gil, "Griegos en aquas del Pacifico", Erytheia, 29, 2008 , p. 52. (Edition of the University of Sevilla) [5]. Juan Gil, "Griegos en la expedicion de Magallanes-Elcano", Erytheia, 19, 1998, p. 75, 76. [6]

Thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by Skylax30 (talk • contribs) 15:58, 31 July 2016 (UTC)

Rewriting the article on the voyage

Hello! I am currently reworking the article Magellan-Elcano circumnavigation to be in prose, and be about the journey. I am using several sources, and I am attempting to make it a very good article. I hope you all support the effort: I have previously had work reverted by powerful administrators, although not as laborious and lengthy so I hope all my work is not in vain. I believe the journey should have a separate article than the article on Magellan the person. Do any of you have any objections with me making/converting that article? As I have notified the contributors to the other article, I will keep and expand the timeline at the bottom of the article. Writing here to make sure I won't get a kick in the teeth upon finishing my work, and it being either reverted or suggested to be merged to here. Any comments?--Simen113 (talk) 18:31, 16 September 2016 (UTC)

Finding source for delegation to Pope

In the following statement in Aftermath and legacy, I have tried to find an appropriate citation.

"This caused great excitement at the time, and a special delegation was sent to the Pope to explain the oddity to him."

I have not had much luck. The best I can figure, there was a book submitted to Pope Adrian VI by Peter Martyr D'Anghera in De Orbe Novo. There was also a visits by Antonio Pigafetta to Rome on command of Pope Clement VII and to Venice to meet with "Caspar Contarino" (Gasparo Contarini).

While it may have been a discussion point with Pope Clement VII, there doesn't seem to be a record of it being discussed with the Pope. I would recommend this statement be rewritten to, "It was odd to the crew and Antonio Pigafetta discussed it with philosopher Gasparo Contarini. Word of the oddity was possibly read and discussed with the Popes Adrian VI and Clement VII."

Inomyabcs (talk) 12:28, 10 October 2016 (UTC)

References

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Sentence fragment -- Departure and crossing of the Atlantic

A sentence in this section currently reads:

On 13 December anchored near present-day Rio de Janeiro.

This would be better stated as:

On 13 December the fleet anchored near present-day Rio de Janeiro.

50.70.104.79 (talk) 18:50, 2 February 2018 (UTC)Andrew, 2 Feb 2018

Semi-protected edit request on 20 May 2018

External links

• Route of the first circumnavigation in Google Maps and Earth Tomasmazon (talk) 06:55, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

 Not done:. The page already links to Magellan–Elcano circumnavigation, which has a properly-licensed image of Magellan's route. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 18:41, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 May 2018

please may i edit this page

Fineeditor321 (talk) 16:25, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: this is not the right page to request additional user rights. You may reopen this request with the specific changes to be made and someone will add them for you, or if you have an account, you can wait until you are autoconfirmed and edit the page yourself. NiciVampireHeart 17:39, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

Crucial error with the name

As verifiable by ANY English teacher from early schoolyears, names are NOT translatable, they are singular and refer to a specific person. His name was Fernão Magalhães, wich the translation above, on top of being translated, is also uncorrect. Ferdinand in portuguese is Fernando, not Fernão. (Those were days where uncommon names were usual, and therefore there isn't a specific translation to all of them in English.) Magellan is an attempted translation made by english people due to their unability to pronnounce the "ã" because it does not exist in their language. (Any immigrant called Magalhães can confirm and verify that.)

Little example: Today we have Donand Trump as US president. Are we going to call him Donaldo Trunfo in Portugal and make a wiki page in Portugal calling him like that? Or write in our history books "Donaldo Trunfo tornou-se Presidente dos EUA". NO! It is a boycott to the actual history and to the person. Translating a persons name is not only WRONG, it is a DISRESPECT to their origins and their achievements. Literally if Fernão Magalães was still alive and you called for him as Ferdinand Magellan, he would not even look in your direction because it is not his name.

One more example: Imagine your name is Scott Raymond. Scott has no portuguese translation, so we read that as "Scote". Raymond has also no portuguese translation, but is similliar to our "Raimundo". So in Portugal we can write about you as Scote Raimundo. Wich is the closest attempt of translation by phonetics. Problem is, that is not even your name! And this is what is happening in this article, there are two names with no translation. What you are calling him Ferdinand Magellan is but a phonetic translation wich can not possibly describe the person as it does not refer to the person in question at all. Same as in the example above.

I will not be the one editing, as I have no experience in doing so, but I am leaving this here so you can correct it.

( Yodakai1 (talk) 13:30, 3 September 2018 (UTC) )

Wikipedia:Article titles, which is a policy of the English Wikipedia, states in the section "Use commonly recognizable names", "Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's 'official' name as an article title; it generally prefers the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable English-language sources)." We therefore named this article "Ferdinand Magellan" because that is the name by which the subject of the article is recognizable to the overwhelming majority of English speakers. We are not in the business of correcting errors in the real world, we are neutrally presenting information that is found in reliable sources (English sources preferred, where available). - Donald Albury 14:44, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

You mention reliable sources wich say he is Ferdinand Magellan, are they actual documents that have his name like that? How about a Portuguese university biography "http://www.fcsh.unl.pt/cham/eve/content.php?printconceito=1152" from Faculdade de Ciências Sociais e Humana, Universidade de Lisboa. How about the Biography of Instituto Camões "http://cvc.instituto-camoes.pt/navegaport/d28.html"

Also on wikipedia rules, Foreign names and anglicization: In deciding whether and how to translate a foreign name into English, follow English-language usage. If there is no established English-language treatment for a name, translate it if this can be done without loss of accuracy and with greater understanding for the English-speaking reader. As I explained before that translation is not accurate.

You say "overwhelming majority of english speakers",however I can assure most who know who he is from history classes are from South America, Portugal, Spain, and Phillipines. Neither uses the name Ferdinand Magellan. The majority of english speakers know him for his actual name. As most that have English as their main language, never even heard of him for the reason specified above.

However, I just don't have more time to waste on correcting the obvious for people that defend themselves with half-baked citations from rules of titles, I was trying to elucidade editers to make wikipedia a more reliable source but since you sir are so fixated in keeping it incorrect, be my guest. Keep spreading incorrect information to the world, making the supposed to be Worldwide Encyclopedia a little worse then it could be. Nothing personal. Have a good day. Yodakai1 (talk) 15:15, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 October 2018

The section "Departure and crossing of the Atlantic" does not mention the lack of Portuguese presence in the Portuguese claimed territory of South America during the arrival of the Spanish armada on December 13, 1519 at the Bay of Saint Lucy (Guanabara Bay). After the first sentence of the third paragraph, "On 13 December anchored near present-day Rio de Janeiro," I would add, "Although in 1500, Pedro Alvares Cabral claimed the eastern most shores of Brazil for Portugal, Portugal did not maintain a permanent settlement there to protect its brazilwood monopoly (the French were able to help themselves to the timber without interference.) Magellan's armada arrived without Portuguese notice." See Bergreen (Over the Edge of the World) 2003 pp. 96-98.

This third paragraph also does not mention the sexual encounters in which Magellan's crew partook at Rio de Janeiro. The Spanish armada arrived at the end of a two-month drought in the region, and so the native people thought of the Spanish arrival as favorable. Although the sailors were fearful of rumors of the cannibalistic nature of the natives, they were able to trade knives for sexual favors and enjoyed "moonlit orgies." After the second sentence of the third paragraph, "There the crew was resupplied, but bad conditions caused them to delay," I would add the following, "The Spanish armada arrived at the end of a two-month drought in the region, and so the native people thought of the Spanish arrival as almost divine. Although the sailors were fearful of rumors of the cannibalistic nature of the natives, they were able to trade knives for sexual favors and enjoyed moonlit orgies." Again, see Bergreen (Over the Edge of the World) 2003 pp. 100-101. Smellyshirt5 (talk) 21:30, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

 Partly done first proposal done but "sexual favors" is not clear enough. L293D (☎ • ✎) 12:52, 17 October 2018 (UTC)

New bibliography on Magellan

Please take note of the following new bibliography on Magellan and the first circumnavigation. It might me usefull to anyone interested in the topic. The bibliography is written in English and can be downloaded from the following address: https://www.chbeck.de/media/3113/magellan_bibliographie.pdf. Thanks!

Well noted, very didactic and comprehensive bibliography. I agree with the author that Juan Gil's book of 2009 sheds much new light on this expedition and has been rather overlooked by historians. Thanks! --Hispalois (talk) 01:00, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

Moving most circumnavigation content to Armada de Molucca

Right now we have an article dedicated to the circumnavigation at Armada de Molucca (maybe not the best name, but that's a separate issue). Per WP:SUMMARY, I'd like to eventually get to a state where that article has the most comprehensive coverage of the expedition, with Ferdinand Magellan having a short-ish summary, along with some more detailed coverage of aspects of the expedition that relate specifically to Magellan the person, e.g.:

• How he treated his crew and officers, and how they viewed him. The accusations that were levelled at him by the men who returned to Spain (torture, disloyalty to the king)
• How his Portuguese nationality affected the dynamics of the expedition. Whether the Spanish officers 'had it out for him'. Whether he gave preferential treatment to Portuguese crew members.
• Significant decisions he made during the voyage, especially cases where he went against the wishes of his officers/crew (route across the Atlantic, continuing through the strait rather than turning back, protracted involvement in the Philippines rather than continuing to Moluccas)
• More detail on his death in Mactan
• Effect on his reputation (and his family/friends) of the accounts given by members of the expedition who returned to Spain (first from the San Antonio, then the Victoria). How his reputation evolved based on subsequent historical analysis.

As of a month ago, the content at Armada de Molucca was actually significantly shorter than Ferdinand Magellan#Voyage of circumnavigation. And most articles that referred to the circumnavigation linked to the latter (via the redirect at Magellan–Elcano circumnavigation). I've beefed up Armada de Molucca considerably since then, and soon hope to start summary-styling the circumnavigation content at Ferdinand Magellan.

Anyways, just a heads up in case anyone has any comments/suggestions/objections. (btw, User:Simen113, I see that you indicated above an intention to do something like this in Sept 2016. I'm guessing you just never got around to it? Or did something make you reconsider?) Colin M (talk) 19:55, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

Update: Here's a rough draft of summary content to replace the Voyage of circumnavigation section. Still need to add (cannibalized) references, but it should give a rough idea of the length and level of detail I was thinking of. (If anything, I think it might be a smidge too long). Mind you, before inserting this, I have a lot of work to do in transplanting any useful existing content to Armada de Molucca (or possibly other articles where it might fill in gaps). Also, I'd like to preserve the current Death in the Philippines subsection in some form, but move it to a top-level section. I'd also like to add a section called something like "Relation with crew", or "Mutinies and relation with crew" or "Mutinies and treatment of crew" or something. There's a lot of salient stuff about this which is probably a better fit for here than Armada de Molucca, given how it centers on the character of Magellan himself, moreso than the voyage. Not sure the best place to slot in such a section though. Colin M (talk) 18:54, 24 May 2019 (UTC)

Draft of summary content for Voyage of circumnavigation

Voyage of circumnavigation Background and preparations After having his proposed expeditions to the Spice Islands repeatedly rejected by King Manuel of Portugal, Magellan turned to Charles I, the young King of Spain (and future Holy Roman Emperor). Under the 1494 Treaty of Tordesillas, Portugal controlled the eastern routes to Asia that went around Africa. Magellan instead proposed reaching the Spice Islands by a western route, a feat which had never been accomplished. Hoping that this would yield a commercially useful trade route for Spain, Charles approved the expedition, and provided most of the funding. Magellan's fleet consisted of five ships, carrying supplies for two years of travel. The crew consisted of about 270 men. Most were Spanish, but around 40 were Portuguese. Voyage The fleet left spain on 20 September 1519, sailing west across the Atlantic toward South America. In December, they made landfall at Rio de Jainero. From there, they sailed south along the coast, searching for a way through or around the continent. After three months of searching (including a false start in the estuary of Río de la Plata), weather conditions forced the fleet to stop their search to wait out the winter. They found a sheltered natural harbor at the port of Saint Julian, and remained there for five months. Shortly after landing at St. Julian, there was a mutiny attempt led by the Spanish captains Juan de Cartagena, Gaspar de Quesada and Luiz Mendoza. Magellan barely managed to quell the mutiny, despite at one point losing control of three of his five ships to the mutineers. Mendoza was killed during the conflict, and Magellan sentenced Quesada and Cartagena to being beheaded and marooned, respectively. Lower-level conspirators were made to do hard labor in chains over the winter, but later freed. During the winter, one of the fleet's ships, the Santiago, was lost in a storm while surveying nearby waters, though no men were killed. Following the winter, the fleet resumed their search for a passage to the Pacific in October 1520. Three days later, they found a bay which eventually led them to a strait, now known as the Strait of Magellan, which allowed them passage through to the Pacific. While exploring the strait, one of the remaining four ships, the San Antonio, deserted the fleet, returning east to Spain. The fleet reached the Pacific by the end of November 1520. Based on the incomplete understanding of world geography at the time, Magellan expected a short journey to Asia, perhaps taking as little as three or four days. In fact, the Pacific crossing took three months and twenty days. The long journey exhausted their supply of food and water, and around 30 men died, mostly of scurvy. Magellan himself remained healthy, perhaps because of his personal supply of preserved quince. On 6 March 1521, the exhausted fleet made landfall at the island of Guam and were met by native Chamorro people who came aboard and took items such as rigging, knives, and a ship's boat. Magellan sent a raiding party ashore to retaliate, killing several Chammoro men, burning their houes, and recovering the stolen goods. On 16 March, the fleet reached the Phillipines, where they would remain for a month and a half. Magellan befriended local leaders on the island of Limasawa, and on March 31, held the first Mass in the Philippines, planting a cross on the island's highest hill. Magellan set about converting the locals to Christianity. Most accepted the new religion readily, but the island of Mactan resisted. On 21 April, Magellan and members of his crew attempted to subdue the Mactan natives by force, but in the ensuing battle, the Europeans were overpowered and Magellan was killed. Following his death, Magellan was initially succeeded by co-commanders Juan Serrano and Duarte Barbosa (with a series of other officers later leading). The fleet left the Philippines (following a bloody betrayal by former ally Rajah Humabon) for the Moluccas, arriving 8 November 1521. Laden with spices, they attempted to set sail for Spain in December, but found that only one of their remaining two ships, the Victoria, was seaworthy. The Victoria, captained by Juan Sebastián Elcano, finally returned to Spain by 6 September 1522, completing the circumnavigation.

Update 2: I'm going to pull the trigger on replacing § Voyage of circumnavigation with a summary (similar to the one above). I carefully reviewed the current content and tried to incorporate any information into Armada de Molucca that wasn't already there (providing it was sourced, or if not sourced, at least plausible and not conflicting with sourced information in the article). I haven't touched § Aftermath and legacy yet, but would like to eventually integrate some of the content into Armada de Molucca (and add some content specific to Magellan himself rather than the expedition). For reference, below are a couple chunks of (unreferenced) text that I ended up not including, in case anyone wants to try to rescue them at some point:

Pigafetta had been jotting down words in both Butuanon and Cebuano languages – which he started at Mazaua on 29 March and his list grew to a total of 145 words. He continued communications with indigenous peoples during the rest of the voyage.

Reduced to Trinidad and Victoria, the expedition fled westward to Palawan. They left that island on 21 June and were guided to Brunei, Borneo, by Moro pilots, who could navigate the shallow seas. They anchored off the Brunei breakwater for 35 days, where Pigafetta, an Italian from Vicenza, recorded the splendour of Rajah Siripada's court (gold, two pearls the size of hens' eggs, porcelain from China, eyeglasses from Europe etc.). In addition, Brunei boasted tame elephants and an armament of 62 cannons, more than five times the armament of Magellan's ships. Brunei people were not interested in the Spanish cargo of cloves, but these proved more valuable than gold upon the return to Spain.

Colin M (talk) 23:09, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Armada de Molucca which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 22:16, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

Proposed change to lead section

I find the following fragment of the lead section problematic:

Commanding a fleet of five vessels, he headed south through the Atlantic Ocean to Patagonia, passing through the Strait of Magellan into a body of water he named the "peaceful sea" (the modern Pacific Ocean).[3] Despite a series of storms and mutinies, the expedition reached the Spice Islands in 1521 and returned home via the Indian Ocean to complete the first circuit of the globe. Magellan did not complete the entire voyage, as he was killed during the Battle of Mactan in the Philippine islands in 1521.

The first issue is that the mutinies (and also, as far as I can remember, the storms) mentioned in the second sentence took place before the arrival at the Pacific Ocean, which is however described in the first sentence. The second issue is that the order of events in the second sentence is confusing: in fact, when the expedition reached the Spice Islands, Magellan was already dead.

I would thus propose the following modification:

Commanding a fleet of five vessels, he headed south through the Atlantic Ocean to Patagonia. Despite a series of storms and mutinies, they made it through the Strait of Magellan into a body of water he named the "peaceful sea" (the modern Pacific Ocean).[3] The expedition reached the Philippine islands, where Magellan engaged in warfare and was killed during the Battle of Mactan. The expedition later reached the Spice Islands in 1521 and one of the surviving ships eventually returned home via the Indian Ocean, completing the first circuit of the globe.

Looking forward to your comments. --Hispalois (talk) 20:34, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

You raise excellent points. I think your proposed modification looks great. Only nitpick: "engaged in warfare" reads a little awkwardly to me. I might cut that part, or expand it into something like "where Magellan became embroiled in a local conflict and was killed during the Battle of Mactan". Though that could imply there was a pre-existing conflict he fell into, which isn't quite right. Maybe "The expedition reached the Philippine islands, where Magellan began a campaign of Christian conversion. One group's refusal to convert led to the Battle of Mactan, in which Magellan was killed."

Regarding the order of events, yeah, the worst storms were in the Atlantic. The most significant mutiny was the Easter mutiny in Patagonia, but there are several others that could be described as mutinous (and are, by some authors), but carry some ambiguity, starting from early in the Atlantic crossing, up to the Battle of Mactan itself. Colin M (talk) 21:11, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

I agree about the "engaged in warfare" phrase. It is also rather redundant, as the text immediately adds that Magellan "was killed during the Battle of Mactan". I would simply cut the phrase out. --Hispalois (talk) 22:33, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

Sounds good! Colin M (talk) 01:16, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

Done. Thanks. --Hispalois (talk) 06:17, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

Wrong born place!

Ponte da Barca, Portugal, spring of 1480

He was not born on Sabrosa. That was fake news. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 176.79.110.105 (talk) 21:45, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

Depictions in popular culture section - remove?

§ Depictions in popular culture is not very useful or informative as it stands. We could try to rework it (perhaps into prose form, rather than a list, as mentioned in MOS:POPCULT) and give more context around the significance of these depictions. But my suspicion is that the significance is just not there. Only one of these works has a blue link (Amaya (TV series)) and Magellan is just listed as a "guest" character. I'm inclined to just remove this section, but wanted to give a heads up in case anyone has an idea for rescuing it. Colin M (talk) 23:41, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

I support the idea of removing the section entirely. The entries are extremely trivial and offend the WP trivia policy. sirlanz 06:54, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

@Cesiumfrog: Note you took a similar view way back when. Any view on this proposed section deletion now? sirlanz 07:19, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

I also support the removal of the Depictions in popular culture section. Unanalyzed trivia that adds nothing to the article. - Donald Albury 15:20, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 September 2019

103.43.77.138 (talk) 04:04, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 20 October 2020

ТОЙ Е ТЪП 82.146.28.219 (talk) 15:57, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Asartea ^{Trick | Treat} 16:03, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 January 2021

Change Where he was born in from Sabrosa to Great Porto, it's been proved that the documents that claimed he was from Sabrosa were faked, it is more probable that he was from either Porto or Vila Nova de Gaia, places where his father had government roles (this article explains some of it https://www.publico.pt/2008/01/31/jornal/afinal-sabiamos-muito-pouco-sobre-fernao-de-magalhaes-247257 Also change his dad's name from Pedro to Rodrigo. Siavon (talk) 01:30, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. The current place of birth is sourced to a book by a competent historian. Such a change should ideally also be reflected in academic sources. Can you find one? RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 18:43, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 March 2021

216.230.22.3 (talk) 19:34, 4 March 2021 (UTC) he was a good man i hate wikipedia

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Twassman | Talk | Contribs 20:02, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

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Mistake in name

There's another mistake on his name. Its actually Fernão Magalhães, I dont know what they keep translating a name. Names cannot be translated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Helvanx (talk • contribs) 14:12, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

That name is listed in the lead of the article. The name of the article uses the form of his name that is commonly used in English., per the policy at Wikipedia:Article titles. Also, please note that new comments should be added at the bottom of a talk page under a new heading. I have moved your comment to the bottom of the page. - Donald Albury 00:36, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

Nationality: Spanish

Magellan was rejected by the King of Portugal. He went to Spain. He received the habit of the Castilian order of Santiago, a way of the time to make him a subject of the King of Spain, that is, to nationalize him Spanish. Like Columbus, the navigator became Spanish by voluntary choice to serve Charles I, future Holy Roman Emperor Charles V, in a company financed by the Emperor. --Wikipedio~commonswiki (talk) 20:51, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

You will need to cite a reliable source for that claim in order to add it to the article. Please show such a source here to see if there will be a consensus that it can be used. - Donald Albury 22:10, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

Consider this source for nationality. Page 20 is quite clear: Bergreen, Laurence (2003), Over the Edge of the World: Magellan's Terrifying Circumnavigation of the Globe, William Morrow, ISBN 978-0-06-093638-9 206.217.0.210 (talk) 03:53, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

Working for the Spanish Crown does not equate Spanish nationality at all, especially during this period in history. Cristiano Tomás (talk) 08:21, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

Perhaps this can be resolved by noting that he was a Spanish Subject and citing Page 23 of the book offered above as a supporting source. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 09:15, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

To call him even a Spanish subject is a political statement and conjecture. At the time Portuguese, Castillian, Aragonese, Genoese and others freely served in the expeditions of each other's countries and could serve entire lifetimes outside of their native country but never be considered anything other than what they were. Américo Vespucci is not described as a Portuguese subject, Giovanni da Verrazzano is not described as a French subject, and endlessly on and on. It's a complete anachronism to try to apply a dichotomy between nationality & citizenship as nationality & subjecthood to personalities of this era. All that need be stated is his service to a Spanish king on a specific expedition, as is already done. The book cited is a novel, albeit on a historical event. It mentions no sources of any documentation or sources as is standard in historical studies on Age of Discoveries era explorers. Cristiano Tomás (talk) 09:59, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

You should read Magellan's diary, he called himself Spanish. In fact he had Spanish citizenship. In fact, to sail on a Spanish navy ship like this, you have to renounce your previous nationality, something that Magellan did a long time before. Magellan was Portuguese until 1508, then Spanish from that year, Magellan was Spanish. Officially his name was Fernando de Magallanes and he identified himself like this

I guess this discussion is now closed, and I am not disputing that Magellan was Portuguese, but I would like to make a comment on the statement by Cristiano Tomás. Amerigo Vespucci was a Florentine citizen by birth and in the years around 1500 served in Castilian and Portuguese expeditions as a Florentine. However, in 1505 he was granted Castilian citizenship by the Crown, so it is legitimate to call him a "Castilian cosmographer" from that date on. --Hispalois (talk) 20:23, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 June 2021

Fernando de Magallanes did not sail the Nao Victoria Magallanes sailed La Concepción. Jose Maria El Cano Sailed the Nao Victoria and finished the first dail round the world. 2020 is 500 years Cieza1990 (talk) 17:36, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:42, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 November 2021

Change "The fleet left Spain on 20 September 1519," into The fleet left Spain on 20th August 1519, 106.215.88.223 (talk) 14:43, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:57, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

His name isn’t Magellan.

We can’t simply go changing people’s names just because we can’t pronounce them or spell them correctly. It’s wrong, a bad example of language supremacy. 2A00:23C5:E580:9201:6C51:910E:FDED:D673 (talk) 22:34, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

The English-language Wikipedia uses the most common name in use among English-speakers for the title of an article. Please see WP:COMMONNAME. - Donald Albury 23:23, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

First European navigation between Atlantic to Asia was done by Vasco da Gama in 1498

It says on the article: "And achieved the first European navigation from the Atlantic to Asia". This is false. The first European navigation from the Atlantic to Asia was done by Vasco da Gama, more than 20 years before Magellan, in 1498. What Magellan completed, was the first European navigation from the Atlantic to Asia via the West (the Pacific), since the Portuguese had already completed that before via the East, reaching India in 1498, South East Asia in 1509, and China in 1514. Magellan showed the Spanish how to reach Asia via the West. 95.93.39.10 (talk) 19:57, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

Name

Why this article is about Ferdinand Magellan ? His real name was Fernão de Magalhães. How difficult is to English speaking people to get foreign names as they are ?Korina (talk) 18:46, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

See the answer to the section titled "His name isn’t Magellan." above. HiLo48 (talk) 23:58, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Lapu-Lapu Monument.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 08:22, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

Not the first European to navigate from the Atlantic to Asia.

In 1497-1499, Vasco Da Gama completed a voyage south through the Atlantic, around the Cape of Good Hope, and terminating in India. This was 20 years before Magellan’s voyage. Magellan’s page should clarify that Magellan was the first to travel WEST from the Atlantic to Asia. 2601:199:880:B9A:F988:4C7E:723B:AE10 (talk) 19:12, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

Relationship

This is actually kinda important since Duarte Barbosa and Serrano refusing to honor Enrique of Malacca's manumission (a) was based on preserving his 'value' for the widow, (b) led directly to a ton a dead Spaniards and a lost-in-the-wind Enrique, (c) which might've made him the world's first circumnavigator and (d) together make the sexiest part of the story aside from the w3Lakʃjuəllymagellandiedhalfwaythrough/civilizationisalie.

This main article on the topic says Magellan married Barbosa's daughter(?)/stepdaughter(?) based on "geneall.com", which certainly doesn't sound like a WP:RS even if I could get it to load; Barbosa's page says it was his sister based on a much stronger source

{{citation |last=Barbosa |first=Duarte |author-link=Duarte Barbosa |display-authors=0 |url=https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.47302/page/n5/mode/2up |title=The Book of Duarte Barbosa: An Account of the Countries Bordering on the Indian Ocean and Their Inhabitants, Written by Duarte Barbosa, and Completed about the Year 1518 A.D... |volume=I |editor-last=Dames |editor-first=Mansel Longworth |location=London |publisher=Hakluyt Society |date=1918 |series=''Series 2, No. XLIV'' |p=[https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.47302/page/n47/mode/2up xlvi] }}.

and the Spanish Royal Academy of History + Google Autotranslate (sure I know...) says it was Barbosa's cousin

{{citation |contribution-url=https://dbe.rah.es/biografias/94240/duarte-barbosa |contribution=Duarte Barbosa |url=https://dbe.rah.es/db~e |title=Diccionario Biográfico Electrónico |publisher=Royal Academy of History |location=Madrid |lang=es }}.

1) It would be good if we could get some good recent scholarship to nail down the exact relationship and use it across the project, certainly on this page at least. 2) Failing that, we need to be presenting the mess in the surviving sources with some context about why it's this messy. — LlywelynII 17:22, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

Eh?

The accusations were proven false, but he received no further offers of employment after 15 May 1514. Later in 1515, he was offered employment...

So two different editors are contradicting themselves? or someone a word? — LlywelynII 13:58, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

Crew list

here doesn't match other entries. There's a cite to Bergreen that I can't check online but seems dubious. The actual source for the nationality numbers seems to be the blog entry by Serrano, which isn't bad for what it is but what it isn't is a WP:RS. — LlywelynII 14:12, 1 February 2023 (UTC)