Talk:Ferdinando Paer
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Paër or Paer?
[edit]Grove and Oxford give Paer. Any reason to use the accent? --Kleinzach 05:17, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
- I've changed it to Paer. Please say if you have better information. --Kleinzach 01:56, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
- It seems, however, that most people use the form "Paër" (apart from the Grove and Oxford). Just do a Google Search on "Ferdinando Paer" ( http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Ferdinando+Paer%22 ) vs. "Ferdinando Paër" ( http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Ferdinando+Paër%22 ), the latter wins. This apart, there really seems to be disagreement. I have found a picture of him in his days which was even labeled "Pär", from Vienna, which would be a third form! My guess would be that "Paer" is the original form, and while he was in Vienna, changed the form to "Paër", exactly in order to prevent the German-speaking Austrians (where "ae" is just a spelling variant of "ä") to have him call or spell "Pär". To say, look it's Pa-er, NOT Pär, therefore I write it now Paër. 83.79.133.15 (talk) 18:43, 21 November 2010 (UTC)
- Your guess is correct. Grove's Dictionary (5th ed, 1954) has a note about this spelling issue (Vol. VI, p. 487). They make the point that Paer is an Italian surname, and it's as wrong to write Paër as it is use to use a diareresis on Aida, Boito or Toeschi. They say that Paër is used by French and particularly German writers, "the latter's reason doubtless to avoid the impression that Paer is an alternative spelling of Pär". So that's why Germans spelled it Paër. But we're writing for an English speaking audience, about an Italian composer who spelt his own name Paer. Let's not change it just because some others did. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 20:55, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
- I wasn't aware of the Grove article, but Paer is certainly not an Italian family name, closer examination shows that "Pär" was the real family name from his German-Croatian grandfather the opposite of the suggestion above (though it was what I might have guessed incorrectly too). I have added ref to Hector Berlioz, David Cairns The memoirs of Hector Berlioz 2002 Page 612 to lede. I haven't added that when in Vienna he went under the name of his grandfather "Pär" as I cannot find evidence of the picture mentioned above, but he signed himself "Pär" in Venice in 1792 when applying for printing permit, that can be added. In ictu oculi (talk) 09:56, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
- (ec) Just goes to show how fluid spelling was in those days, even of surnames. There are many examples where umlaut letters are interchanged with their long form (ä -> ae), for various reasons. This one is unusual in that he also used the diaresis, Paër, which is a different kettle of fish and has, in its pronunciation, no relation to the forms Pär, Paer. But who are we to argue with the idiosyncracies of 18th-century world citizens? -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 10:55, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
- Indeed, somewhat surprised to find him using a German umlaut in an Italian application to Venice's censor five years before Napoleon gave the city to the Austrians. Certainly not to be argued with, but noting the Austrian descent is worthwhile. Jeremy Commons in the extensive booklet to the Opera Rara Sophonisba highlights simply says "German" with no further details. In ictu oculi (talk) 11:04, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
- Ahh – nationality in the 18th century. Mozart, anyone? Paer's Austrian descent? Surely you mean Serbian? Or was it Croatian? Never mind – as soon as we will be persuaded to use infoboxes, all these uncertainties will disappear. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 11:19, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
- Pär isn't German either, we both know that if anything it's Slavic, possibly Serbian, unfortunately sources say "German," "Austrian" is a little compromise. Well tedesco growing up in Parma, then welsch in Vienna, and italien in Paris. I sense a tad of irony in the infobox comment, cheers. In ictu oculi (talk)
- Ahh – nationality in the 18th century. Mozart, anyone? Paer's Austrian descent? Surely you mean Serbian? Or was it Croatian? Never mind – as soon as we will be persuaded to use infoboxes, all these uncertainties will disappear. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 11:19, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
- Indeed, somewhat surprised to find him using a German umlaut in an Italian application to Venice's censor five years before Napoleon gave the city to the Austrians. Certainly not to be argued with, but noting the Austrian descent is worthwhile. Jeremy Commons in the extensive booklet to the Opera Rara Sophonisba highlights simply says "German" with no further details. In ictu oculi (talk) 11:04, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
- (ec) Just goes to show how fluid spelling was in those days, even of surnames. There are many examples where umlaut letters are interchanged with their long form (ä -> ae), for various reasons. This one is unusual in that he also used the diaresis, Paër, which is a different kettle of fish and has, in its pronunciation, no relation to the forms Pär, Paer. But who are we to argue with the idiosyncracies of 18th-century world citizens? -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 10:55, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
- I wasn't aware of the Grove article, but Paer is certainly not an Italian family name, closer examination shows that "Pär" was the real family name from his German-Croatian grandfather the opposite of the suggestion above (though it was what I might have guessed incorrectly too). I have added ref to Hector Berlioz, David Cairns The memoirs of Hector Berlioz 2002 Page 612 to lede. I haven't added that when in Vienna he went under the name of his grandfather "Pär" as I cannot find evidence of the picture mentioned above, but he signed himself "Pär" in Venice in 1792 when applying for printing permit, that can be added. In ictu oculi (talk) 09:56, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
- Your guess is correct. Grove's Dictionary (5th ed, 1954) has a note about this spelling issue (Vol. VI, p. 487). They make the point that Paer is an Italian surname, and it's as wrong to write Paër as it is use to use a diareresis on Aida, Boito or Toeschi. They say that Paër is used by French and particularly German writers, "the latter's reason doubtless to avoid the impression that Paer is an alternative spelling of Pär". So that's why Germans spelled it Paër. But we're writing for an English speaking audience, about an Italian composer who spelt his own name Paer. Let's not change it just because some others did. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 20:55, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
The grandfather's home town
[edit]Michael, checked as your edit summary requested: "Peterwardein is present-day Petrovaradin, just a few miles downstream on the Danube River from present-day Novi-Sad in northern Serbia, about 180 miles south of Budapest." thanks for cleaning up edit. Seems good. In ictu oculi (talk) 10:50, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
Birth date: 1 June or 1 July?
[edit]Sources seem equally divided between 1 June and 1 July 1771. Nowhere that I can find is the discrepancy discussed or resolved. Can we get to the bottom of this? -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 23:13, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
- Wolfram Enss(ß)lin writes in MGG: " * 1. Juli (nicht 1. Juni, wie seit FétisB allg. verbreitet) 1771 in Parma, † 3. Mai 1839 in Paris". But, as you noted, many other sources, including Julian Budden and Scott L. Balthazar in Grove Music Online give 1 June. I suggest that it can't be solved definitively and that a footnote about the uncertainty be added.
- As for the spelling of his name (see above), MGG says, "Ferdinandos Großvater Michael Pär, gebürtig aus dem österreichischen Peterwardein (heute Novi Sad, Kroatien) … Ferdinando änderte um 1810 die Schreibweise seines Familiennamens in Paër."
- -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 02:38, 14 August 2021 (UTC)