Talk:Football records and statistics in Spain/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

User Coquidragon removing verified information

The user is removing ronaldo's records based on his own personal view. He is stricly and clearly biased against any real madrid player or record. This website clearly says who had how many appearances and ultimately how many seasons to reach 100 goals: http://www.realmadrid.com/cs/Satellite/es/Actualidad_Primer_Equipo/1330091624401/noticia/Noticia/Cristiano_Ronaldo_es_el_jugador_que_antes_llega_a_los_100_goles_en_Liga_en_la_historia_del_Real_.htm The closest to ronaldo were langara and puskas both taking over 4 seasons. All of the ones below them have at least 115 appearances meaning more than 3 seasons . This is a fact.HasperHunter (talk) 00:54, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

Number of season wise:

1. Ronaldo: 2 seasons and 29 games

2. Langara: 4+ Seasons from verified records

3. Puskas: 4+ seasons from his own verified records

All of the remaining have way more appearances which can definitely not be less than 4 seasons, certainly not less than 3. This does not need to be explained.HasperHunter (talk) 00:57, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

Also to note, the user is breaking WP:NPOV when he said in the section above this: "But if you can have an opinion, so can I, and since this is a Spanish league record, I'll believe Spanish sources more than foreign source". So for his personal point of view, only spanish websites are correct and english are always wrong.HasperHunter (talk) 01:06, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

Wow! I have done two reverts. First, you cited no source. I reverted. Second, your source did not support you statement. I reverted. Now, from nowhere you introduce a new source, which partially supports your claim. At the time, my actions were correct. Now, you are incurring in personal attacks and accusing me of being biased. How am I biased? I have shown no biased against RM players or records. If you see the history of my contributions, many times I have exchange arguments defending RM records, specially against FCB. Now, you have in this page comments like "Catalunya sources are unreliable" and "Only a user from catalunya would be desperate to not put ronaldo as fastest". We can see who is biased here. BTW, I am from Puerto Rico, not from Spain. I have nothing against Spain nor Catalunya.--Coquidragon (talk) 01:51, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

As for your new supposed record, it is personal research. No sources, not even your new source, state that CR7 have a record in the number of seasons. They don't mentioned because there is none. Your new source only mentions that CR7 took three seasons. It is true, but it is also true that Lángara took 5 seasons, because like I already stated, mathematically it was impossible for him to do it less. Here is the number of played games by season for Lángara's four previous seasons (18 games, 22 games, 21 games, 20 games), which all add to 81 games. CR7 has no record and you cannot found any source in the media stating "CR7 has a record: 100 goals in less amount of seasons". That is personal research. Still, we can still reach consensus if you are consistent in your personal research. Paraphrase:

-Fastest 100 league goals (38 games in season): 2 seasons and 29 games Cristiano Ronaldo on 2011-12 and then you add

-Fastest 100 league goals (seasons with <38 games): 4 seasons and 1 game Isidro Lángara on 1947-48. What do you think?--Coquidragon (talk) 01:51, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

Wow again, you accuse me of WP:NPOV when you are the one that said "Catalunya sources are unreliable" and "Only a user from catalunya would be desperate to not put ronaldo as fastest"? When I said "Spanish" I wasn't thinking about the language, but the country. These is is very old information on the Spanish (from Spain) league. I would expect that media from Spain might know better than media from other countries, because of having first hand information that might not be available elsewhere. This "opinion" of mine has been put in evidence since your three foreign sources attributed to CR7 the record, while the Spanish (from Spain) sources knew about Lándara, and did not attribute the record to CR7. Also, you are misquoting me, since with the "foreign source" it is obvious I'm not speaking about languages, but nationalities.--Coquidragon (talk) 01:51, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

You can put the information you paraphrased of course. I have never stopped anyone to put more and extensive information. In fact we have to put these because this article has information about club records from the 18 games, 40 games and 38 games format as you can see all over the records in the article. Just do not delete information that someone added. I am totally Ok with you putting that paraphrased info, make sure you mention number of games. Its funny to me you think the 18 games format was harder and CR's record is easier. Any naive of a person would know it is harder to play more games in a season than less. And how is it mathematically impossible for langara? If langara had scored as ronaldo and messi: 4 or 5 goals per match, he would have surpassed all records, dont you think?HasperHunter (talk) 02:03, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

First, I have never said that the 18 games format was harder, nor that CR7's record is easier. That's an incorrect interpretation. I just stated differences in the league's format at two moments in time. The rest was added by you. Second, I'm not naive nor do I think that it is harder to play less games in a season than more. Please, refrain using from comments like "naive" which make reference to the editor, not to the information. Finally, when I say it is mathematically impossible for Lándara to do it in less seasons, I'm referring to his taking 82 games. If it took him 82 games to score 100 goals, and the four previous seasons he only played 81 games, it was impossible for him to do it in four or less seasons. His 82nd game was the first game of his 5th season. It is the same as saying the it is mathematically impossible for CR7 for have done it in two seasons, since the amount of games in the first two seasons only add to 76 games. If it took him 92 games, this has to have occur in the 3rd season. During Lándara's time, since in four seasons there were 88 games played, it would have taken CR7 also 5 seasons to score 100 goals in 92 games, same as Lándara's 82. Or by the same token, under the current format, it would have taken Lándara only 2 seasons and 6 games to score his 100 games.--Coquidragon (talk) 02:33, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

Done! You are more than welcome to rephrase it, reword it etc. Just so you know if you look at this article, there is a record for each and every season format, 18 games 29 games, 40 games, 38 games etc. HasperHunter (talk) 02:17, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. It is always good when consensus is reached. Thank you for you part in it.--Coquidragon (talk) 02:41, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

'Opening goals' records

This is more an observation than a criticism- but the record for 'Most league opening goals in a season' seems a bit contrived/artificial to me- especially since they all appear to favour Cristiano Ronaldo. But then again- maybe there's nothing wrong with obscure facts like that being put up on these 'Lists of records' pages. Any thoughts? Uranium grenade (talk) 03:21, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

Agreed. I am not sure who put these records. Most league opening, closing, these are not even factual records.DBSSHASPER (talk) 23:43, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

I researched this subject and I found out that if this is a "record" like the user who initialized wrote. This record would belong to Messi not Ronaldo. He scored 11 opening goals during 2010-11 season and Ronaldo 10 in 2011-12 season. Which 8 of them were away opening goals, another "record" that does not belong to Ronaldo (5 away goals in 2011-12). Also, in my research I found out that the other "record" for home opening goals does not belong to Ronaldo neither. David Villa scored 6 home opening goals during 2008-09 season. Better than Ronaldo 5 home goals in the 2011-12 season. I hope that you put a stop to the user who is posting this false information. It seems like it is a Ronaldo fan who is doing this. Please, stop this. Thank you. 21:05, 24 May 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gomero12345 (talk • contribs)

Gomero, These records be it Messi, Ronaldo or any other player, none of these opening, closing goals were part of the consensus. So I have removed all of them. Stop putting images of a particular player. And also stop adding ridiculous records.DBSSHASPER (talk) 02:12, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

Reference for most opponent scored as per request

http://www.realmadrid.com/cs/Satellite/en/05_Mayo_Actualidad_11-12/1330104661891/noticia/Noticia/Cristiano_Ronaldo_becomes_first_player_to_score_against_every_team_in_one_La_Liga_season_with_20.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by DBSSHASPER (talk • contribs) 12:52, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

Most goals in a season - all competitions (La Liga Player)

This is the reference for the record. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_association_football_club_records#Most_goals_in_a_season Gomero12345 (talk) 11:51, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

Yeah and its already in the table. so we cannot put this again. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DBSSHASPER (talk • contribs) 20:19, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

If you are going to make your corrections base on that reason then none of the records should be there. Don't you think? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 3pler24 (talk • contribs) 04:56, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Most career league goals (Active Player)

This record is needed for people to see who is near Telmo Zarra. Very important informacion. This is the reference http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_records_in_Spain#Top_ten_goalscorers.2C_still_active_.28Primera_Divisi.C3.B3n_only.29 Gomero12345 (talk) 11:51, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

This is also in the table so stop putting these records. and stop citing wiki itself. we are all aware of that.DBSSHASPER (talk) 20:20, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

Youngest player to score 150 league goals

This is a record in spain. Read the references before deleting something http://www.goal.com/en-india/news/2292/editorials/2012/03/18/2974491/messi-stars-in-barcelonas-win-at-sevilla-but-the-eyes-of-the#

Elcomercio: http://elcomercio.pe/deportes/1389165/noticia-messi-supera-record-raul-como-jugador-mas-joven-anotar-150-goles

Marca: http://www.marca.com/2012/03/17/futbol/equipos/barcelona/1332022246.html

Mundodeportivo: http://www.mundodeportivo.com/20120319/fc-barcelona/leo-messi-pichichi-total_54270786397.html

This is included in the source: "It was a goal that saw Leo break another record as he became the youngest player to score 150 La Liga goals at 24 years and 270 days old."

Gomero12345 (talk) 11:51, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

This is not a Leo messi fan page. If youngest scoring records are to be put, it has to be kept for every players. which is not the case here.DBSSHASPER (talk) 20:21, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

You have to read better. There are youngest scoring records for every player. 3pler24 (talk) 20:21, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Improper information, undue prominence of messi

The individual subsection of the La Liga section should only and only include players goalscoring history in la liga, because its inside the main section la liga. every other record follows this, except one. Lionel messi's 73 goal record is written by a vandal and barca fan a few weeks ago. This should be removed immediately as no others players info is mentioned for goals scored in all european competitions. this section should only inlcude la ligas information — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.71.197.17 (talk) 04:35, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Team frivolous records, youth infos and other undue

A user has been putting youth info on the team records without WP:Consensus and other frivolous records like individual not losing a game consecutive when these have never been put and its already on the team info. Since it breaks WP:Consensus, it is removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 49.244.48.66 (talk) 02:11, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

• Its not a youth info ...its much different ..& I'm not breaking WP:Consensus first one at individual level  :

A players with most consecutive wins in la Liga & Players with most consecutive games without losing in a league game its different from the team one , and you can see both of them are referenced,Its just similar to player with most consecutive scoring records ??

2nd : for team one ... its not youth stats !! its barca 1st team scorers,also similar to other records included there .

please dont remove anything unless there is a consensus about it

Adnan Talk 7,25 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Adnan, all other info you added include information about barca's youths players scoring goals, thats not something we add here as all other teams will bring such frivolous records and the article will be a mess. You fail to see that the records are purely records of a team scoring most goals, most wins etc not youth turned pro scoring goals. If we add such info then they will start adding teams with most old players scoring goals etc. So if that is to be added, everyone has to agree.

About consecutive wins in la liga, its the team that wins it and that info abt barca is already in team's record. so its totally not acceptable to add info about player winning consecutive win in la liga, because a player does not win game but a team. Its not similar to player with conescutive scoring because, it is the player who scores so that can be put here. but it is NOT a player who wins, its the team. Please stop reverting as you are about to break WP:3RR and I will have no option than to warn you through and admin.Masterpasa (talk) 02:28, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

Hello , there is a consensus about that at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Football#Football_Records_in_Spain_.

so you please stop reverting as you are breaking a consensus and unless a new consensus about it agreed you dont have the right to change it now . Still, the concept about the team winning the match not the player...its just a record ! like scoring ...and its a national record as the references say so i dont see your point .. and again since a previous consensus agreed you cant change it without discussion it there thank you Adnan Talk 1.9 , 17 November 2012 (UTC)

It is you who added these WP:UNDUE and frivolous records so you need to stop reverting. and there is no consensus for this. a consensus is not agreed until everyone decides it is agreed. so you cant add anything without full consensus there nor here.49.244.125.32 (talk) 01:58, 18 November 2012 (UTC)

I've removed these "records" again. That a large proportion of goals from a given season were from players who graduated from a team's youth system is an interesting factoid, but it is not a "record" of note; the same applies to the various other cherry-picked statistics from the edit in question. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 15:05, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

Please for anyone doesn't agree with these records (which are well sourced as it shows ) don't open a discussion about it here because there was a consensus about it at wikipedia : wikiproject football . so if you think this records aren't needed just open a discussion there without removing the records because there is a consensus accepted about it so unless a new consensus accepted about it , the current one still as the rule for it.

Thank you all. Adnan Talk 17:18, 10 December 2012 (UTC).

You need to stop edit warring immediately, and specious claims of consensus won't wash either. I'm going to start handing out lengthy blocks for any further instances of this idiocy. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 09:15, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

I've had a look at this supposed "consensus" at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Archive 74#Football Records in Spain .: there is nothing there indicating support for these "records". I'll be removing them again shortly, as they are both contrived and trivial: no other league has "records" for "most goals scored by players who came through the youth ranks" or "most players to score in a season". Further warring over this will be met with blocks. If you wish to discuss re-adding particular examples here in order to gain consensus for them, feel free. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 09:26, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

Beat you to it ;) GiantSnowman 10:48, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

Ok first for all MR.Chris lets keep this discussion about football using expression as idiocy isn't best way to keep this discussion productive because after all even if i have an opinion is different from yours it wont be an idiocy & lets not take it personal please . well now lets back into the discussion I agree with the point about player from youth team & number of scorer yeah i see the point about its not existing in any other football records , but the number of player with consecutive wins or without lose(the one of Sergio and another about Insestia)..its a record as referenced in Barca's websites as national record.

Adnan 20:53, 12 December 2012 (UTC).

Protection

I've now protected this page following a request at RPP. Clearly this dispute is not resolved. GedUK  12:27, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

How about streamlining this page a bit?

Currently this page is quite heavy loaded with entries, I propose we streamline it a bit. Particularly I propose reducing excessive entries to make way for more interesting ones, right now this page is to cumbersome, there are to many insignificant entries, particularly under individual records.

For example, we could move all entries regarding individual scoring records to a Spanish Football top Scorers page leaving only the 3-4 most significant ones, that way we could reduce the page a lot, leaving space for Cup entries and European records entries, the latter one still missing completely.

We could also create a page for Spanish football individual records and move all entries to that page only leaving the 3-4 most important ones. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.16.70.181 (talk) 12:11, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 21 December 2012

messi has not 229 matches 192 goals he has 230 matches 194 goals 85.98.163.65 (talk) 23:39, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. --Redrose64 (talk) 15:56, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 26 December 2012

Messi does not have 192 goals in 229 apps for La Liga. Now, he has a record of 195 goals in 231 apps. I would use his Wikipedia profile as a source. Instead, I'll take the Messi's ESPN stats profile as a more reliable source. http://soccernet.espn.go.com/player/_/id/45843/lionel-messi?cc=3888 — Preceding unsigned comment added by AndresSuescun (talk • contribs) 09:28, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

Discussion: Certain record inclusions

there are number of records we aren't agreeing about so lets just discuss it here and after that we decide to remove or keep the record..please no one remove the record before discussing it... Thank you :

-Only Spanish team to score in all away games in a La Liga season , its the same record as Most games with three or more goals in a season?? so which one seems more picky trivia ?? it's a season long record and no other team in the history of la liga did it..so why remove it ? the record should be about something no one else could do it! and this case is clear about that ... adding its well sourced also !

--Only team in Spanish League to have won all away games in the first half of the season : It's a winning record for a set games of la liga !

-Most consecutive games scoring: you are saying other teams are holding the record...even the source is clear about who holds the record and you couldn't provide a source stating otherwise but still keep removing it

-Most consecutive away wins in one season : its not about only ongoing records,its a consecutive record for win in one season..like consecutive wins in one season ! but this one its about away wins

-fastest player to score 100 goals by number of seasons !?! there is one for number of games as all other records ...it's for sure a trivia because there is no other records in whole wikipedia like that ! all just put number of games ! which is clearly Ronaldo doesn't have It's not a record then we are gonna talk about who scored 150 goals in number of seasons then 200 in number of seasons or 50 in number of seasons and then we add who scored in number of minutes ! so lets keep it clear number of games Thank you — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:3878:81E0:481B:B0B1:8EC1:4CB4 (talk) 23:44, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

Your request goes against WP:BOLD --Walter Görlitz (talk) 00:00, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

Well then its the same about deleting whatever I'm adding until i discuss it here to add :) so it goes against WP:BOLD also . for sure . — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:3878:81E0:E048:8F5A:1A95:BEE3 (talk) 05:05, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

No it doesn't. Changing is fine, particularly when it's with a reference, and deleting is appropriate, particularly when it's with a reasonable edit summary. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:21, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

This edit is completely valid. The reference is Wikipedia, which is not a reliable source.

This edit is slightly more questionable. A WP:SECONDARY source would be preferable, but Primary sources aren't bad. This particular source is just peacocking for the team and isn't particularly reliable. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 06:00, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

First record there isnt any Consensus about it as you said look it up for me if there is one!.its more about trivia for a player you are fave so we can't add this one unless we get a Consensus — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:3878:81E0:E048:8F5A:1A95:BEE3 (talk) 07:18, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

• Most games with three or more goals in a season this record is based over mardid website and you refused all above records depending on that ! so this records should go with these records ...if we accept we can put records sourced from the related club then this record and other above can go as that ! but removing just basing some we can and other we can't isnt acceptable one rule for all ! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:3878:81E0:E048:8F5A:1A95:BEE3 (talk) 07:24, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

for the Only Spanish team to score in all away games in a La Liga season:

−

• • In 2010-11 season, 19 games[1]

??? clear record ?? with a clear reference ?? so why keep removing it ?? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:3878:81E0:E048:8F5A:1A95:BEE3 (talk) 07:38, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

Time to request page protection due to your behaviour. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 14:46, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

This edit makes it clear that the page needs to be protected and all editors involved need to start communicating. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:23, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

Please do protect it. That seems to be the only way to stop the IP from adding personal club info and reverting.49.244.24.191 (talk) 15:37, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

well it seems the only way to communicate if they protect the page !you don't seem want to communicate anymroe so i hope when he dose that you can listen then !! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:3878:81E0:ACD7:6FE5:3DBA:365 (talk) 15:43, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

anyway I'm sure any fair person if he looks at what you are doing he can understand me !, like first team to score 100 3 times on row ?? really ?is that even a record ?? then the ronaldo record about scoring 100 by number of seasons ?? its a trivia at best ! not even a record . finally the heavy win record //?? isn't also a trivia !! and most important point ! : this guy has been removing all the records i added because he is saying the source from the related club website !! but look at those last two records !! he refused to measure them at the same way ! the same reason he is convinced about shouldn't apply for records he wants ! plus he doesn't really communicate here ! he just wants to remove whatever doesn't like ! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:3878:81E0:ACD7:6FE5:3DBA:365 (talk) 15:51, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

I had put the 100 3 times in a row just to show you that if you start putting club based barcelona records citing barcelona's own club page, then every club fan will start to put trivia and cherry like these! You need to understand that this article is already referenced by countless real madrid and barcelona website only so either you help in organizing and cleaning up or stop messing up the article! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 49.244.146.211 (talk) 02:09, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

About the sources

Instead of using individual sources from clubs, why not using http://www.bdfutbol.com/en/ for all statistical data, it is already used for several of the entries on this page and it looks much better (cleaner) and less cluttered in the source list when a common source is used.

http://www.bdfutbol.com/en/ is the best statistical online source regarding la liga, is is directly based of official records and dubblechecked against alternative sources for errors, such as match reports in newspapers and printed sources. You simply will not find a better source for la liga, not even the statistical work by Vicente Martínez Calatrava which is listed on this page can match bdfutbol. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.25.47.85 (talk) 16:16, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

we can work on that all together i guess , but lets agree about which records we need to look up please ..because we don't want some records which is really sounds biased or it's just matter of club basis !

so lets start agree about the records please ... we are in dispute about . we don't want to add just trivial stuff

Thank you — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:3878:81E0:4DB1:5DCC:61DB:86CC (talk) 23:25, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

the records we are in dispute about ..

-fastest player to score 100 goals by number of seasons...its a trivia & biased towards Ronaldo...isnt it?? there is no need for such a record..

Not a trivia. If you put youngest player to score 100 goals and fastest player to score 100 goals in this article, then 100 goals by games and number of seasons is clearly acceptable.

-Most games with three or more goals in a season : its just a trivia , because if we are doin that , then next time most games with 4 or more goals in a season or two goalst etc... not needed also ?? what do you think ??

No, It clearly says Most games and the section is for such.

- Only Spanish team to score in all away games in a La Liga season: This record is a La Liga standard not like just who scores more... or making special circumstances for it what do you think ?

This is a trivia and an unwanted fact then. You can clearly see with open eyes that the subection is for Most WINS not only spanish team. you want it to be put based on personal bias for barcelona.

-Most consecutive away wins in one season : shouldnt we have something like that..? because most records belong to the season... ?

barcelona fan talk!

-Only team in Spanish League to have won all away games in the first half of the season : whats your opinion about that please... ?

Barcelona fan talk!

any other records you think we need to discuss ?? any other ideas ?? lets agree about the records so we can start working in finding reliable sources for it

Thank you again — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:3878:81E0:4DB1:5DCC:61DB:86CC (talk) 23:53, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

Why not look at the records of other, similar articles? Football records in England and Football records in Italy are fairly good. If they have a shared (or very similar) category, it's probably a good idea to have it. If it's not there, then you should think twice about adding it. You'll also notice that Germany, France, Scotland, Ireland and Portugal, all strong football nations, do not have such a list. Take from that what you will. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 00:23, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Walter. And i clearly dont see why we would agree to cite bdfutbol when it is well known catalonian fan based webpage. The only credible source seems to be ligabbva which is the official la liga website.49.244.146.211 (talk) 02:11, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

first of all don't add words between my comments without making clear what you added is difference from what i added !! its not acceptable lets be clear ..I'm not here in personal debate with you ! you are trying to make the discussion about barca vs real while I don't care about it as that. I'm barca fan but I'm not too blind to see anything other than that! So yea lets check other records pages its totally sensible solution ! something odd as some records are added we can get rid of it then {{subst:unsigned}}

If you're going to comment in-line, you should 1) indent (that was done) and 2) sign (that was not done) each line, but it's clear which comments are which.

I suggest that rather than try to gain support your preferred statistics, perhaps focusing on those common with other articles would be appropriate. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:04, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

It is clear and the user mentions that the user supports fc barcelona as does the users edits. Thus, such edits from the user breaks several rules including WP:NPOV.49.244.84.20 (talk) 11:52, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

yes ok , none of these records have anything like in pages you suggested , so either we need to vote which we think its acceptable or just refuse them all !!

So its up to us to decide ... the record about fastest 100 goals in number in seasons there is nothing at all like it in all records pages !! it's really just making a special rule for ronaldo to go in what do you think ? also he already agreed the put the record 100 goals in 3 seasons just to show he can be more biased , so we don't need to talk about that i guess from the records i added i agree about winning away should be ongoing record...because it seems as that in other record pages.. i didnt find something like biggest win more than 3 in a season also neither about winning all away games in half of the season so we don't need them both

so the only record i think we can add the only team to score in all away seasons because it seems fit that . and it's a season long record as all records seems in other pages. talk)

First, Wikipedia operates on consensus, not by voting. As long as you understand that it's not a democracy, all of the records are crap and I vote to remove them.

Second, rather than bickering over a few recent additions I think you should focus on bringing this article up to the standard of the other two articles I mentioned. Once it's there, then you can decide if other statistics should be added. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 06:01, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

It should be noted that the user has accepted above clearly that the user is a fan of barcelona, the user's edits say the same. This breaks several rules in wikipeda including the WP:NPOV.49.244.84.20 (talk) 11:52, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Walter. And i clearly dont see why we would agree to cite bdfutbol when it is well known catalonian fan based webpage. The only credible source seems to be ligabbva which is the official la liga website.49.244.146.211 (talk) 02:11, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

bdfutbol is simply a webpage compiling data from official records, I don't see what difference it makes weather is is Catalan, Spanish or from the planet Mars? That page is clearly not biased, as there is nothing to be biased about when compiling competition data, it is also the only really accurate source online beside the single primary official source which is LFP.es.

On the other hand, the page you mention does list unofficial data for its top scorer list. In fact, it uses Marcas Pichichi list which is based of Marcas editors subjective criteria for who scored. The Pichichi list is not official, not recognized by LFP, and it is not used for the EMS european top scorer award. If you want to use an official web page, then the ONLY official online source is LFP.es. LFP it the orginizing body of the competition, they are the only ones that hold official data. ligabbva is the sponsor of the competition but they are not the ones that organize it, that page is completely worthless for compiling records because they don't use official records but instead personal and subjective records for their list, Top Scorers, Assist, Goalkeepers etc.88.25.47.85 (talk) 13:35, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

why 49.244.84.20 can't just concentrate about the article ?? we are not in personal debate here ? why its hard fro you to understand that ?? can you stop acting as Real madrid fan and be honest ?? I'm being neutral !! If I wasn't I wouldn't agree all other records are crap unlike you , you are the one who admitted in one of your deleted edits at this page I had put the 100 3 times in a row just to show you that if you start putting club based barcelona records citing barcelona's own club page, then every club fan will start to put trivia and cherry like these! You need to understand that this article is already referenced by countless real madrid and barcelona website only so either you help in organizing and cleaning up or stop messing up the article! said by 49.244.146.211 (talk)at Revision as of 02:09, 23 February 2013 , you added crap record to prove you can be more real madrid fan should i revert it so you can remember ? So work in improving this article not about proving this article because supporting team doesn't mean im biased towards him and cant use my brain !! because you clearly can't look beyond Real madrid vs barca!! stop that !

Mr.Walter Görlitz If YOU think all the records are crap !! it doesn't make it crap ! because as what wikipedia says Editors usually reach consensus as a natural product of editing. After someone makes a change or addition to a page, others who read it can choose either to leave the page as it is or to change it. When editors do not reach agreement by editing, discussion on the associated talk pages continues the process toward consensus. which we are doing here ! you are saying its not voting ?? but you voted they are crap ?? so they are crap ? how can we reach consensus then ??

finally how about you bring us what records already existed at the current page and tell us which you think aren't up to the standard ? because all of what left they are good just need to fix the source for them and bring a better source !! i mean look at the premier league record page ! they have even much more records don't exist here as longest goal distance and stuff like that. so other than these record we have here in dispute we need to find better sources only !

talk) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:3878:81E0:8829:BAB5:477:A344 (talk) 16:10, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

Edit request for Most goals in a season — all competitions (at least 40 goals)

cristiano ronaldo now has 40 goals and is tied to ference puskas for this season. Please add this entry. Also since it is an active streak, the name should be bold.49.244.170.224 (talk) 05:27, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

Done by other editors in these edits. GoingBatty (talk) 13:34, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

OK, list any disputed entry below here and we'll sort out each and every one

In this section you can list any entry you do not agree with and we will sort it out, IE I don't agree with X entry because whatever is your argument.88.25.47.85 (talk) 12:40, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

I think we should work on finding better source for most existed records but other than the ones we are in dispute about ...I think all records have something similar in other pages just need to have better source and I invite 49.244.84.20 to be helpful and give the source he suggest so we can look at them and if he has some records from the existed right now don't agree with please bring it in

2602:306:3878:81E0:8829:BAB5:477:A344 (talk) 16:10, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

I think the following passage has to be revisited regarding the games, because in one case (most away games scored in) there are the actual games listed and in the other cases there are listed the games for the whole seasons, I guess this should be sorted out, one way or the other. THX in advance: Most league home goals in a season (38 games): 35, Lionel Messi (2011–12) Most league home matches scored in a season (38 games): 16, Lionel Messi (2011-12) Most league away goals in a season (38 games): 23, Cristiano Ronaldo (2011–12) Most league away matches scored in a season (19 games): 14, Daniel Güiza (2007-08) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.63.26.8 (talk) 23:26, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

Do you mean want us to remove these records...?? because I didnt get what you meant exactly...but anyhow...there is similar records in premier league record page...so i think they are fine ??

however the IP 49.244.84.20 made good point about youngest player to score 100 goals...it seems excessive and not needed . so what do you think remove them ?? I mean its fine to leave the youngest player to score one goal but for ever 50 goals ?? its too much :) 2602:306:3878:81E0:8829:BAB5:477:A344 (talk) 10:26, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Well ,the scoring records regarding youngest and fastest X goals are not really significant enough IMO, they can be removed. Then you could remove all Most league home/Away matches/goals in a season as they either already belong to Messi or will belong to him by the end of this season. I don't se a point with any of them to be frankly.217.125.152.64 (talk) 19:51, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

but Most league home/Away matches/goals in a season are records existed in other football records pages... and even if all the records belong to one player it's not a reason to remove them ? 2602:306:3878:81E0:8829:BAB5:477:A344 (talk) 20:28, 24 February 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:3878:81E0:FC0A:5A0D:FA15:29EF (talk)

My intend was to equal the standards for the amount of games. They all should have the same basis. That´s why I highlighted the games. In the case of Guizas record you refered to the actual amount of home games with 19, in the other cases you used the total amount of games in a season with 38. In my opinion you should refer to either one. I would prefer the actual games played and that would be 19 in all of those cases I wrote down. I meant anything but to remove those records. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.63.26.8 (talk) 16:15, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

oh I totally agree about that, but what then now... ?? are we having a consensus about this article about the Individual records ?? ...

which is basically so far..to remove the youngest player to score 100 goals ? plus just actual games of 38 ?? and no record to add to the individual section for the ones already existed ?? also we need to find better reliable sources for them . Finally... about the team records ...it seems a mess ...I think many of these articles should be figured out properly and many other to remove...as example the section about Most effective team in a La Liga season at least 3 goals per game it seems not needed? what do you think... ??

2602:306:3878:81E0:FC0A:5A0D:FA15:29EF (talk) 04:01, 26 February 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:3878:81E0:84BD:E893:3AC4:50B5 (talk)

If I was to opine, I would say remove all those personal records. None of the other league articles have records like most away, most consecutive etc etc etc. This will just create a quarrel between RM and Barca or Messi and Ronaldo fans and vice versa. 49.244.162.228 (talk) 07:44, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Yes, but the other leagues don´t have Messi (Cristiano soon will be for forgotten, once he retires). By the way the "most consecutive goals scored in" section needs an update, he is already at 15. And I´m not sure, but shouldn´t he scored against every opposition by know. Sorry haven´t looked it up, but if he scored against 15 in a row in a league with 19 opponents that is likely to be, right? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.63.26.8 (talk) 12:47, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Wow, I haven't visit this page in a while and saw a big misunderstanding with these new goals being included. Just a point of clarification in terms of number of games. The number of games in parentheses was only needed for "fastest" records when a previous record was broken, under a different league configuration. The (38 games) refers, not to the record or the number of games by player, but to the season. As the number of teams has changed since the beginning of the league, the number of games for each season has also changed, and the record needs to have this in consideration. For example: Most points in a season (2 points for a win, 18 games), Most points in a season (2 points for a win, 22 games), Most points in a season (2 points for a win, 26 games), Most points in a season (2 points for a win, 30 games), Most points in a season (2 points for a win, 34 games), Most points in a season (2 points for a win, 38 games), Most points in a season (2 points for a win, 44 games), Most points in a season (3 points for a win, 42 games), Most points in a season (3 points for a win, 38 games). Another example, fastest 100 league goals (38 games in season) vs. Fastest 100 league goals (seasons with <38 games). This last record was a consensus after a Real Madrid fan was relentless in giving this record to CR7, who did it in 3 seasons, and taking it from Alcántara, who did it in five seasons. At the end of the day, the record was Alcántara's and only his, since he needed less number of games to achieve it, but since his seasons had less number of games, it took him more years to achieve it. The other editor did not see that Alcántara did it in less games, but only paid attention that Ronaldo did it in less years. Many of the number of games being added are unnecessary.--Coquidragon (talk) 13:26, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

About the ronaldo consensus, if it already was added through consensus then it cannot be removed without another consensus as per wiki rules?!49.244.118.202 (talk) 08:58, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

There isn't any consensus before about Ronaldo record,provide where or when the discussion was made about it?

2602:306:3878:81E0:8829:BAB5:477:A344 (talk)15:53, 3 March 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:3878:81E0:E14D:F730:3FE7:E01C (talk)

I´m absolut aware of what the number of games mean, but thanks for clarification anyway, but my point was the following one: In the section, wich I pasted a bit further up, regarding most away goals etc., there is once the actual number of away games (Guizas record) with 19 while all the other records refer to 38 games. I didn´t mean the actual games played by a certain player, but you should stick to one logic. It´s either the whole season (38 games) or the actual games (19) wich is of course the number you get when dividing 38 through 2. For me personally, it makes more sense to write down 19 in any of those cases, but anyway they should follow the same logic; either whole season or actual home/away games. Thanks for your work. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.63.26.8 (talk) 15:35, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Ok looked it up. Messi has only scored against 18 teams so far this season, he has to score against Celta de Vigo in about 3 Weeks time to complete sharing the record for "most teams scored against in one season" with the both Ronaldos. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.63.26.8 (talk) 15:51, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

you are totally wrong 84.63.26.8 its not about real vs barca!! so please don't argue basing on that :) and for 49.244.162.228 : if you check the premier league records and statistics you can find they have kind of the same records we are debating here after all .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premier_League_records_and_statistics they have the same kind of records about away goals , home goals etc... so what do you all think ? probably removing the fastest and youngest x goals should be removed because its not really important agree ?? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:3878:81E0:84BD:E893:3AC4:50B5 (talk) 17:56, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Never said it was, sorry mate. If you refering to the "...don´t have Messi..." line, that wasn´t too serious, thought you would get it, but I know, these kind of little jokes never work on the internet, sorry for misguiding, Anyway the page still isn´t up to date regarding Messi´s run of consecutive games scored in and obviously no descision has been made for the number of games or does it just stay in the current form? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.63.26.8 (talk) 22:07, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Ok lets make the vote about it... Remove the youngest , fastest player to score X goals in La liga remove it or keep it ?? :

I say remove it ! you all ?

I say keep them. Let those others league pages follow. Sooner or later they will. Why take steps back, it´s completly against the spirit of Wikipedia. For me, it´s very understandable how these records are structured. If they are accurate and confirmed, they should stay. Who are we to decide, which part of this page is interesting for whomever with whatever reasons? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.63.26.8 (talk) 19:09, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

• Remove, but we don't vote. Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:14, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

""" Ok..So most of us are saying remove them...or think they are not needed records...(even if its not a matter of voting ) ... Do we move on and just remove them...?? what is next ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:3878:81E0:68D4:96B9:34FF:D41E (talk) 18:48, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

So the following records are present on the Football_records_in_England page, do we agree with keeping these and removing the rest (they can always be moved to the individual players page)

• Most career league goals
• Most goals in a season
• Most goals in a game
• Most hat-tricks in one season
• Most career hat-tricks
• Longest goalkeeping run without conceding a goal
• Youngest goalscorer

Any additions? I propose also keeping Most clean sheets as I think it is a significant record.88.3.145.47 (talk) 11:43, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

well you missed many of records existed in england page ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premier_League_records_and_statistics

check it here ... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:3878:81E0:1587:C2E1:A335:C0AE (talk) 20:38, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

Instead of just referring to another page can't you just list the records you think should be included? I have my proposition, now you can list your, then others can list theirs. From there on we can try to reach consensus. If everyone follow their own agenda then we'll be stuck in this editing war for ever. 88.25.0.156 (talk) 13:15, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

ok lets add all the following (which are most the records existed ) :

Individual :

• Most career league goals
• Most league goals in a season (38 games)
• Most league home goals in a season (38 games)
• Most league away goals in a season (38 games)
• Most league matches scored in a season (38 games)
• Most league home matches scored in a season (38 games)
• Most league away matches scored in a season (38 games)
• Most opponents scored against in a season
• Most goals in a game
• Most consecutive league matches scored in
• Most league hat-tricks in a season
• Fastest hat-trick in La Liga
• Most consecutive hat-tricks in one season
• Youngest goalscorer
• Longest goalkeeping run without conceding a goal
• Most clean sheets in a season
• Most clean sheets

  So my removed Records from the current existed one in this page : 

• Most consecutive away league matches scored in
• Youngest player to score X league goals
• Fastest X league goals
• Best conceded goal quota in a season

--Also at Most goals in a La Liga season (at least 100 goals) :

remove : First team to score at least X goals in a season

we already have the list of teams scored more than 100 goals which is good so we X goals thing is excessive .

-- the same for Most goals in a season – all competitions (at least 140 goals)

only leave the list and remove all the rest .. stuff suggested to be removed :

• First team to score at least 100 goals in a season

It should be noted though that a number of teams managed to score over 100 goals in a season during the 1930s when the national league and cup were played alongside the regional leagues. Most prolific among those was the Athletic Bilbao team of the early 1930s scoring 126 goals in 1929-30, 137 in 1930-31, 127 in 1931-32, 127 in 1932-33 and 115 in 1933-34, others include Real Oviedo scoring 114 in 1933-34 and 110 in 1935-36.

• Most goals in a season besides Real Madrid and Barcelona: 112 in 54 apps by Sevilla in 2007/08

-- the list Most effective team in a La Liga season (at least 3 goals per game) I suggest its not needed...

final thing.. at Cup section then Individual

Remove :

• Most consecutive finals scored in

that is my list... any consensus so we can move on and working into finding the sources !! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:3878:81E0:3CB0:CB6E:6CB:E072 (talk) 21:12, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 19 March 2013 about Most league away matches scored in a season (38 games) its wrong ...

The last updated information about Most league away matches scored in a season (38 games): 15, Lionel Messi (2012–13) is updated wrongly...Messi doesnt hold the record...Barca already just played 28 games (14 home + 14 away ) only ! http://www.fcbarcelona.com/football/first-team/calendar and messi scored in 13 games of them since he didn't score in away match to Seville ...So the last record by Guiza still stand by 14 . 2602:306:3878:81E0:85CF:6250:B208:ED78 (talk) 15:12, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Done Apparently in 13 games ([2]).

Edit request on april 24, 2013

Update required on the Most goals in a season — all competitions (at least 40 goals) in the subsection individual records. Messi's 2012-13 has 57 goals but the apperances in 47 now. please change it from 45 to 47 and the ratio too. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 49.244.27.109 (talk) 07:59, 24 April 2013‎ (UTC)

Done

Edit request on april 28, 2013; Re-edit May 1 & 5

Messi's consecutive goals run hasn't ended just yet, because he didn't participate in the games of Barcelona from matchday 30 to 32 due to injury, logically he wasn't able to score. At his return for Barca he scored (matchday 33 in Bilbao), so he should stand at 20 cons. games in total and 13 at the away games. Thanks.

Don't know, if anyone is reading this, but here's a source that sees it the way I do, so maybe somebody would change it, if agreed. Thanks, again. Messi's streak at 20

Thanks for adjusting. But there is still the matchday wich needs fixing. Sorry, if I am to demaning. Regarding Forlan, there has been a change of the numbers on his Wiki-page, but the new ones still add up to 133, so he also should be included on the list. Like always, thanks in advance

One more update to "Most consecutive league matches scored in". Messi scored two goals on matchday 34 against Real Betis, so "Most consecutive league matches scored in" should be changed to 21 for him. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.210.147.223 (talk) 21:32, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

The source given above is wrong (or to be more precise - a journalist was wrong) !! This streak is not for Messi`s league matches that he scored in but for consecutive matches (without any break) that Messi (or any other player) was able to score in. It`s visible in paper version of Guia Marca de la Liga (and I believe pretty soon will be updated in http://www.rsssf.com/players/scoringstreaks.html) Messi`s streak has ended when he didn`t come on the pitch. It cannot be otherwise because there`s no data available for players in past 80 years who had similar breaks in such streaks (e.g injuries).

Would You also consider a streak for the hypothetical player who would move from Spain to another league and came back after a season or two ? If he would be scoring again his streak wouldn`t be ended also ? ;)

Changed back to previous stats.....

Not done: please make your request in a "change X to Y" format. Mdann52 (talk) 10:49, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on May 1, 2013

Another request: Shouldn't Diego Forlán be included on the 30 highest goalscorer list, because on my count he has scored 155 goals in spain. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.63.44.247 (talk) 16:54, 1 May 2013‎ (UTC)

Not done: 155 in Spain, but 128 in La Liga.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by SojerPL (talk • contribs) 12:01, 6 May 2013‎ (UTC)

Alright, then the stats on his Wiki-page are still wrong:

2004–2007 Villarreal 106 (59) 2007–2011 Atlético Madrid 134 (74)

The page was previously changed from (96) to (74), so I changed the request from 155 to 133. But regarding to your 128 goals it has to be changed once more.

By the way: The total goals for teams has to be changed as well, because Barcelona has reached 105 in scored goals. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.63.44.247 (talk) 20:11, 6 May 2013‎ (UTC)

The biggest points difference between the first- and second-placed team at the end of the season:

The user SupernovaeIAlkeep removing The biggest points difference between the first- and second-placed team at the end of the season , saying it's not needed even though its just the same as any other info included there about points .... If any of you guys agree with him just mention it so we remove it ! otherwise we are going to leave it

Thank you

Adnan_n2 (talk) 03:13, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

You mean "SupernovaeIA" user. Information is unsourced.--SojerPL (talk) 07:11, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

No..I meant he was just removing it,but you are right..It should be sourced..and now I added source for it..so It's fine now isn't it??

http://www.totalbarca.com/2013/statistics/22nd-la-liga-in-numbers/ [User:Adnan_n2|Adnan_n2]] (talk)20:20, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Records in bold and Spanish Super Cup records?

Anyone oppose to change the formatting to bold as is used on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_records_in_England, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_records_in_France, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_records_in_Germany, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_records_in_Scotland, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_records_in_Sweden ? I think it is easier to distinguish individual records when they are displayed in bold font.

And also should we ad the spanish super cup records in the way FA Charity / Community Shield records are displayed on the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_records_in_England page ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.27.194.86 (talk) 10:21, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

It's an incorrect use of bold, so don't do it. Walter Görlitz (talk) 13:30, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

Incorrect or not, for consistency I think all peages should have a similar layout and style. Then we should change the other pages according to you? It makes no sense to have a different style between two pages with the same topic.88.27.194.86 (talk) 09:04, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

Youngest goalscorer 50, 100, 150, 200

This has been talked before: Talk:Football_records_in_Spain/Archive_2#Youngest_player_to_score_150_league_goals. Last time the argument in favor to remove these records were "This is not a Leo messi fan page." As seen in earlier discussion, both "youngest to score 150" and "200" were in the media [3] [4]. Also, EPL youngest to score 150 was in news: [5]. If you want to remove these stats, please give better reason. Kahkonen (talk) 21:07, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

Youngest to score is one thing and this has been agreed to be put in the article and has always been there. but youngest to score 1 10 50 100, these are frivolous records. No football reords article are allowed to put such records. Fastest to score is based on appearances and goals- which is a factual record. Youngest for certain goals is not! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.108.158.217 (talk) 23:54, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

Fastest to score random amount of goals is equally random stuff. No football records article has them listed. 88.113.243.231 (talk) 22:10, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

More trivia. Fewer references.

We're back to meaningless "records" and they don't have references. I'm also seeing that people are updating totals without references. This has got to stop. Walter Görlitz (talk) 02:53, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Since there has been no discussion, I will be removing unreferenced records shortly. Walter Görlitz (talk) 16:07, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Done. Walter Görlitz (talk) 14:23, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

And so now we have User talk:Edamian edit warring over this and not discussing. Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:55, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

You are beating a dead horse, this has been discussed over and over. No matter how many times you remove "trivia" people will put it back again soner or later. I have proposed to move all "trivia" to sub pages. This page should be modeled after https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premier_League_records_and_statistics for consistency between european football league statistics pages. It is pointless to enter editing wars over what is trivia or not, everyone has their own definition, just move it to a sub page.88.8.66.119 (talk) 19:06, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

Not beating a dead horse, no. It should be modelled after the Premier League or other records not only for consistency, but in this case, we'll start by removing the unreferenced material. I see no objections to it here. Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:26, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

Stop your war Walter Görlitz 85.221.143.112 (talk) 10:33, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

The problem is that you remove what you consider meaningless "records" that others consider very important records, perhaps the most important records, so in effect you are just running your own agenda without consensus which end up resulting in other people puting back what you have just removed. This ends up in an endless editing war that will never stop, in fact it has been ongoing on this page for the last 4 years. I propose a middle ground aproach, to make the page more readable and less cluttered, just move all the trivia to sub pages. In that way whenever anyone add trivia it can simply just be move to the sub page.81.44.93.245 (talk) 13:00, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

I have no war and I didn't remove what you believe I removed. I removed what was unreferenced. I still feel that there are meaningless records in the article. The only way to correctly deal with trivia is to leave it on the sites where the trivia is "referenced" such as fan sites, etc. Walter Görlitz (talk) 16:34, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

According to me, Walter Görlitz have no right to decide alone what is trivial or not especially that he is not able to define standards which could be the criterion of judging. Edamian (talk) 16:52, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

I'm sorry. You realize we're not talking about trivia at this point but rather only referenced v unreferenced material, right? Walter Görlitz (talk) 16:54, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

Continuing to restore unreferenced material is not appropriate. I restored the hat trick material but the reference, http://www.bdfutbol.com/en/c/rankingHT1.html, is not a reliable source. Walter Görlitz (talk) 16:58, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

So in the end we will argue over what is a reliable source, I argue that no matter what source you use for simple statistics as is the case of this page, you will end up arguing agains it as unreliable, so in effect we should delete the whole page because there is no reliable source than can verify anything on this page. So instead of debating over sourced or unsorced, we should just delete the whole page as it is completely unreliable no matter how we do.

The Primary Source LFP.es is no go because of wikipedia rules, the secondary sources are all completely biased and useless as is the case of any spanish printed media. The third-party sources are useless because they are outdated by atleast a decade if not more and even they are full of errors. So the only thing that remain to do is delete the whole page.88.16.64.252 (talk) 21:10, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

There's no need to argue over what a RS is or isn't, because that's already been defined: WP:RS and we can appeal to WP:RSN to any source that we feel is not reliable and have it removed. A source may be reliable for one thing, such as match results, but not another, overall statistics. That's what is discussed at RSN. And I don't care what you think I will and won't argue for or against since you don't know me. And I'm sorry, there are no "simple statistics" on this article either. They are rather complicated. Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:27, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

There is nothing on this page that is verifiable with a reliablbe source, not a single entry. Hence the whole page should be deleted. All sources listed are useless per wikipedia rules. I've read all the descussions on RSN and the conclusion is that unless there is an updated source (2014) in printed and published format, it is worthless.88.16.64.252 (talk) 22:50, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

And the restoration of material as "vandalism" has begun again. A discussion would sure be nice and name calling and mischaracterization should be avoided. Walter Görlitz (talk) 00:59, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

How can adding a citation needed tag to an unreferenced item be construed as vandalism? Seriously! Walter Görlitz (talk) 01:01, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

How is the trophy table not sourced? It is. So are the vast majority of the records mentioned. 99% of the data is from the Spanish Wikipedia version which uses Spanish sources and they cannot be used on the English version of Wikipedia if I am not mistaken.

Deleting all of the very useful material that has been updated regularly is wrong IMHO.

--Suitcivil133 (talk) 01:17, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

I don't think I originally deleted the trophy table and the anon above did. I believe that links to referenced season articles serve as references.

Spanish-language references can be used on English Wikipedia by using language=Spanish and transtitle= in the reference. See Template:Cite web for the documentation on those two parameters. Walter Görlitz (talk) 01:26, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

So now we are relying on "known to be correct"? This has got to stop. Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:47, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

refocus discussion

Since some editors don't seem to get it and have been edit warring, I will suggest a different approach, I will mark the material as requiring references and do so in this manner:

Dubious material that has a reference somewhere, but not here..

I plan to do this within two days unless references appear before that. Walter Görlitz (talk) 16:36, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

Valid Sources

Let's debate here what are valid sources because since the data on this page is constantly being updated, there are no static data sources that are useful. Since this page has a source problem and no one here can agree on what are valid sources, the editors of this page can propose their own solution here. My proposition is that LFP.es is approved as a valid source, it contains the only official data on la liga and has in its database every result of every match ever played in la liga including full match data going back to the very first round played on the 10th of February 1929, it is also constantly updated to the latest match played. If LFP.es is approved, it can be used as a source for pretty much every statistic displayed on this page regarding wins, draws, losses, goals, games played, on both team and individual level, at least it contain all that data. Printed news media in Spain is extremely unreliable, they get everything wrong all the time, they can't even get the numbers for Ronaldo and Messi right even though they write about them every single day. I'd say, AS, Marca, MD, Sport, El País, El Mundo, or any other Spanish news media should not be used as a source, they are always full of errors.88.9.45.26 (talk) 16:42, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

For example, http://www.rsssf.com/tabless/span2012.html supposedly supports "Most wins in a season" of 32 for Real Madrid. What it shows is "Final Table: 1.Real Madrid CF 38 32 4 2 121-32 100 Champions". No commentary on that being more wins that season than any previous season or any season since. Removing it again. However http://www.bdfutbol.com/en/c/rankingPGD1.html does support that. Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:13, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

Most prolific goalscorers, all-time, all competitions

[6] May 1, 2014 by 85.221.166.252

I don't understand this section. It only contains Madrid and Barcelona players and there is no clue how do you read 'all cometitions'. Is it all cups, all lower leagues while paying in Spain? Is it all club goals while playing in la liga? Why there is no Guillermo Gorostiza if he scored 290. Or Villa who scored 300 in Spain. --SojerPL (talk) 07:00, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

This is the problem with the unsourced material, but it does read "all competitions". Walter Görlitz (talk) 08:36, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Assists

It would be nice to have all-time leaders in assists. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.139.94.140 (talk) 15:23, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

Dispute regarding the number of times that FC Barcelona has won the Copa Eva Duarte trophy

The user "Imperial HRH2" is removing the last (the one won during the 1952-1953 season) of the 3 Copa Eva Duarte trophies that FC Barcelona has won in total on the FC Barcelona page, this page and the Football records in Spain Wikipedia page.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FC_Barcelona

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_records_in_Spain

He is using the official webpage of FC Barcelona (the English version) as a source here but that webpage has no authority when it comes to official trophies won. It's the Spanish Football Federation (RFEF) that decides who won which trophy and when as they are the founders of those tournaments in place. In this case the Copa Eva Duarte trophy. In other words they are the highest authority.

The Spanish and Catalan Wikipedia versions of the Copa Eva Duarte trophy agree with that opinion and so do the Spanish and Catalan versions of the FC Barcelona page here on Wikipedia.

Most importantly RFEF itself recognizes it on their official webpage which must be regarded as a bigger authority on this matter than FC Barcelona's English webpage. To me it seems that they have just forgot to include the last Copa Eva Duarte triumph. If somebody contacts them to make them aware of this omission they would probably correct it the day after. Yet he bases it solely on what the FC Barcelona webpage says on their "trophy honors" list.

Here is the link to the official RFEF website.

http://www.rfef.es/noticias/supercopa/conoce-antecedentes-supercopa

In fact every source that I could find says that the Copa Eva Duarte was abolished in 1953 and that FC Barcelona won it in 1953 as they won the double that season (La Liga and Copa del Rey) just like they did the previous season where they were also awarded the Copa Eva Duarte trophy.

Please take a look at those 3 pages that I have linked to and give your opinion of this current dispute if you have the time.

Regards,

--Suitcivil133 (talk) 17:43, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

No opinion is required. This matter was solved months ago. No where in your rfef reference it says that copa argentina or any other preceding cups are considered official. Period! Stop reverting.SupernovaeIA (talk) 18:07, 20 December 2014 (UTC) This is the official source for Barcelona's cups.. its own official website! http://www.fcbarcelona.com/football/detail/card/honours-football SupernovaeIA (talk) 18:23, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

You are no authority on that. Let's get that straight first. Besides you are obviously a sockpuppet which is illegal on Wikipedia. Otherwise explain to me why 3 "different" Wikipedia users are discussing this with me on my talk page and why they all use the same ridiculous "argument" and all have reappeared in the past 2-3 days.

This discussion has not been discussed anywhere. At least not on this talk page which is where disputes are supposed to be discussed and solved!

FCB won the CED on 3 occasions (1948, 1952 and 1953). Those triumphs have nothing to do with the Copa de Oro Argentina which was only held for one season (1945). Please don't spread more nonsense then necessary!

The conclusion is that you did obviously not read my message. My references/sources are not Wikipedia. I just merely stated that the Spanish and Catalan versions on this regard agree with my view and present sources for that view.

My primary reference is the RFEF which is the Spanish Football Federation and the football organization that organized the Copa Eva Duarte trophy.

http://www.rfef.es/noticias/supercopa/conoce-antecedentes-supercopa

Let me quote that article;

"Con la Supercopa de España nacida en el 82, la RFEF recuperaba el precedente oficial inmediato conocido como la Copa Eva Duarte que no se disputaba desde el 53."

"La temporada 1952/1953 fue la última en la que se disputó esta competición como consecuencia del fallecimiento de Eva Duarte de Perón."

The Copa Eva Duarte became a official trophy organized by RFEF in 1947. In 1948 FCB won their first Copa Eva Duarte trophy defeating Sevilla in the final. In the 1951-1952 season FC Barcelona won the domestic double (La Liga trophy and Copa del Rey trophy) which meant that they were handed the trophy. They repeated the same the season after (1952-1953) where they won the domestic double and were awarded the Copa Eva Duarte trophy. This was the last edition of the Copa Eva Duarte. In 1982 the RFEF founded the current Spanish Super Cup.

Read the link I provided from the official webpage of RFEF and if you do not understand Spanish make a senior Spanish moderator or admin confirm what I have written.

Moreover I provided this page as well which also confirms that FCB won the Copa Eva Duarte trophy in the 1952-1953 for the reasons that I explained.

http://www.rsssf.com/tabless/spansupcuphist.html

FC Barcelona's English webpage obviously forgot the last trophy won by the club. If somebody contacted them and told them that they forgot the CDE won during the 1952-1953 season they would have corrected it. Why? Because the RFEF already recognizes them as winners during that season and every other source that I can find.

--Suitcivil133 (talk) 20:23, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

Someone please solve this. Barcelona's official page disagrees. And on your link from RFEF, it simply says that the last one was held in 53, thats all. Imperial HRH2 (talk) 22:22, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

Another issue, should this even be considered an official trophy? I cannot find "official" in any sources and FIFA doesn't recognise it as a major honour, neither does another source. Should this just be removed from both the FC Barcelona and Real Madrid trophy count to prevent pro Barca vandals and other from switching the count from 2 to 3 and vice versa?Imperial HRH2 (talk) 07:58, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

I add one more ref to support that very recent one.. http://www.marca.com/en/2014/12/21/en/football/real_madrid/1419183209.html?a=GI3bbdffe5f5a14f0d7e46d97f47d1ec5c0&t=1419189663 2A01:240:FE3D:4:9CBC:FE96:5CD8:C6DE (talk) 19:23, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

So, based on the discussion from FCB's talk page, can we go ahead and add Eva Duarte back to the list?--Coquidragon (talk) 18:32, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

You could, be our guest. But this is not a semi-protected page and I'm pretty sure you are going to be involved in a few edit wars. Good luck.

P.S. - Just add the two for now, so its 80 trophies each and thus reflects the Barcelona and Real Madrid page (until we figure out the last Eva Duarte). Imperial HRH2 (talk) 18:47, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Intertoto

This is the exchange that I had with Dantetheperuvian (talk) about the UIC record.--Coquidragon (talk) 00:33, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

---

Greetings, I saw the two changes you did for Atlético and Deportivo for 2007 and 2008 respectively. Although you are right, they were not outright champions of UIC those two years, there was actually none. They were regional competitions and each Atlético and Deportivo each became the champions for their respective regions, earning this way each a spot in the UEFA Championship. Later, based on averages, an "titular" champions was calculated. Yet, from 2006 to 2008, those 3 years, there were 11 Regional UIC champions each, Atlético and Deportivo being two of the 33 Regional champions. Thanks for your regard on this matter.--Coquidragon (talk) 04:37, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

You are wrong. In principle the UIC was "continental", not "regional" and UEFA made it clear in its rules for the last 3 editions who was proclaimed champion and neither Athletic nor Deportivo have complied with the requirements of UEFA at the time.--Dantetheperuvian (talk) 00:29, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

No, I'm not wrong. Read the articles for the 2007 and 2008 UIC tournaments on this wiki, which are well documented, or even the general Intertoto article. If you need external reference, here is the link to UIC at UEFA.com. Please look at the dropdown box for Previous seasons winners. You'll see both Atlético and Deportivo. Here is the Link. You say that "UEFA made it clear in its rules for the last 3 editions who was proclaimed champion." Yes, the last three seasons of UIC had 11 champions/winners each. Of the 11 teams, that team which progressed the further in the UEFA championship was declared a posteriori the outright winner, but only titular champion. It is well documented. My "regional" label was misused, since they were the winners of the third round of the tournament. I apologize for the misunderstanding.--Coquidragon (talk) 10:16, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

What do you think it means to be "outright winner" or, as you say, "titular champion"? Obviously, because the tournament regulation says, UEFA recognizes that team (ie one of the eleven who qualified for the UEFA Cup) as the competition's winner, therefore, can not say the same of the rest. This link is even more explicit: "In the UEFA Cup campain 2007/2008, the best performing team was the German team Hamburger SV." (and the website was powered by UEFA and the Europan Football Pool).--Dantetheperuvian (talk) 19:00, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

With your last message, I see where are you coming from. You only count the team that got the trophy. Yes, they are the champions. What I am trying to communicate is that although there was one outright champion (per discussed rules), there were 11 winners. Here I leave you the profile for Atlético de Madrid at UEFA.com. Although they don't have the trophy for 2007, please see how in the list of honours, it does list UIC 2007. They were winners of UIC, there were 11 winners, since the purpose of UIC was qualify to UEFA Championship. Thanks for your consideration on this matter.--Coquidragon (talk) 00:26, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

Adding new content

This article has a history of being tampered by several fan sections. So it was decided years ago, that any new content has to be first fully agreed upon talk and then put in the article. If there are new sections to be made, please state what and why here: — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A01:240:FE3D:4:D071:9CBB:6752:EA8E (talk) 22:47, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

It is wikipedia, there is no rule or whatever previous consensus can prevent sourced information from being added , if you don't like it and want to challenge it , provide a reason why you want to remove it , but don't just remove sourced information without a valid reason for this. Thank you Adnan (talk) 03:48, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

It is wikipedia like you just said, THEREFORE there is no rule biased and frivolous unreliable sourced information can be removed anytime like the way its added. If you want to add anything, you need to provide a reason yourself why it should be added. Thanks SupernovaeIA (talk) 18:39, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

sourced information has been added , seriously the whole article is about SPANISH football records ,so to call a sourced information about player with most major trophies in Spanish football is biased or frivolous because you don't agree with doesn't sound right :) so chill out and calm down bud it doesn't worth it , have a good one Adnan (talk) 22:06, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

EDIT

I cannot edit the article. what's going on? Կարեն Վարդանյան (talk) 22:29, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

It's been protected to prevent edit warring. Take a look at the page history to see what's going on. If there's a change you want make, you can post an edit request instead. Sir Sputnik (talk) 22:39, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

I do not know how to do it. The games of the day had been finished and I want to change data. Կարեն Վարդանյան (talk) 22:48, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

There are instructions at WP:Edit requests (which is why I linked that page above), though for simple updates, you're probably better off just waiting until the protection expires and including the relevant matches in next week's update. Sir Sputnik (talk) 23:07, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

This is the second round impossible to edit. Do something, please!!! Կարեն Վարդանյան (talk) 22:33, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

ICFC non inclusion

Ok, this has been discussed a million times before and the consensus was not to put ICFC in the Spanish club records and trophy tally. I have reopened this topic with this new section explaining WHY ICFC is neither official nor can be kept in the trophy count list.

1) First and foremost being, ICFC was NOT organized by neither UEFA NOR FIFA. It was solely created by non UEFA/FIFA representatives, (in general words: civil society) for the mere purpose of promoting trade fairs. This single reference is good enough to explain what ICFC reaaly was: http://www.uefa.com/uefaeuropaleague/history/index.html It is crystal clear written that some guys created this tournament for representative sides from European cities that regularly held trade fairs. (examples are London XI, Basel XI, Lausanne etc which are not even a UEFA or FIFA affiliate club). For second ICFC fairs friendly tournament, teams still had to come from cities staging trade fairs. This means this is NOT an open to all tournament (to more than 95% of clubs here and of RFEF Spanish clubs, they never participated in this friendly trade city football)

2) UEFA cup is a completely different thing, and if you go to the section called UEFA cup in the article, it mentions why UEFA is an official title as it was no longer related to trade fairs cities. So, ICFC was a tournament held before UEFA cup but has absolutely NO official relations with ICFC. ICFC is not an official compeition. Again, neither organized by UEFA nor by FIFA.

3) This article has been vandalized by pro-barca fans and clearly to skew the clubs trophy count as it has won this friendly compeition more. This is not a valid reason to keep ICFC(not organized by RFEF, UEFA or FIFA) in the trophy tally which includes official open-to-all club compeitions organized by those three bodies. Please do not vandalize until we reach consensus (again!). SupernovaeIA (talk) 18:31, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

What is happening?

I cannot edit again. Կարեն Վարդանյան (talk) 09:34, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

Protection

You protected it, now keep it up to date, will ya. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.94.42.98 (talk) 12:45, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

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