Talk:Fostoria Shade and Lamp Company

Question before reviewing for GA

Hi, I'm interested in reviewing this article for GA, but before I do I wanted to ask; why have you not split this article? Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 01:10, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for your interest and excellent question. I assume you are asking why Consolidated Lamp and Glass Company is not in a separate article. I would not have a problem with moving it to a separate article. I left it in because it was essentially the same factory with a new name while the plant remained in Fostoria, Ohio. I also thought it would make the Fostoria Ohio Glass Association happy to keep the Fostoria part of Consolidated in the article—the Association has been helpful and very nice to me. I have written the following articles about Fostoria glass companies: Mambourg Glass Company, Novelty Glass Company, Fostoria Glass Company, Seneca Glass Company, Nickel Plate Glass Company, and this one—Fostoria Lamp and Shade Company (with a section mostly on the Consolidated Lamp and Glass Company while it was in Fostoria). If you think it would be better to separate Consolidated Lamp and Glass Company, I will do it. TwoScars (talk) 18:10, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

If you think it is better to separate Consolidated Lamp and Glass Company, here is how I would work it. I believe I could get it done in one day. The Section that begins "Consolidated Lamp and Glass Company" would be cut out and used to create a new article (that would be missing some information about the Pennsylvania years). I would add a subsection after "Depression" that would contain only one paragraph with no images—and it would discuss how long the new company remained in Fostoria, where it moved to, and when it became defunct. TwoScars (talk) 19:57, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

I think this sounds like a good layout. I support a split. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 13:04, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

Will start split. TwoScars (talk) 14:51, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

This review is transcluded from Talk:Fostoria Shade and Lamp Company/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nominator: TwoScars (talk · contribs) 19:07, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Reviewer: Rollinginhisgrave (talk · contribs) 22:46, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

I'll start reviewing this over the next few days. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 22:46, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

General Comments

I'll be adding issues as I go. These can be responded to immediately, or wait until I am finished/ask for a response. Thankyou for being so good about splitting the article, you've resolved my major issue already. 04:08, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

I've completed a copyedit which I hope you can review. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 04:33, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

All looks good. TwoScars (talk) 00:19, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Prose and content

• Kopp achieved fame for his many glass designs and formulas for various colors of glass, and he is the discoverer of the American formula for selenium-based ruby glass. Put this in the body so it's not just in the lead.

Added to Unusual patterns and Consolidated Lamp and Glass Company sections. TwoScars (talk) 01:23, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

• Change the second paragraph of the lead now that the article has been split to summarize the article contents.

Made changes. TwoScars (talk) 19:21, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

• and possibly break redundant

Change sentence to "The glass product must then be cooled gradually (annealed), or it will break." Also changed to a more available source: Shotwell. TwoScars (talk) 19:33, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

• An alternative fuel, natural gas, became a desirable fuel can you give a date?

Added "In the United States, gas and oil began replacing coal as a fuel for glassmaking in the 1870s—where it was available." TwoScars (talk) 20:09, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

• already blessed with less idiomatic

Changed to: "The city of Fostoria was a desirable location for manufacturing because it was already served by multiple railroad lines. It was close enough to the natural gas field that it could use a pipeline to make natural gas available to businesses in town." TwoScars (talk) 20:18, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

• The gas boom in northwestern Ohio enabled the state to improve its national ranking as a manufacturer of glass (based on value of product) from 4th in 1880 to 2nd in 1890. More concise

Changed to: "Ohio's gas boom enabled it to improve its national ranking as a manufacturer of glass from 4th in 1880 to 2nd in 1890." TwoScars (talk) 20:21, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

• By 1907, electricity still reached only eight percent of the homes in the United States, and the percentage did not reach 35 until 1920. off topic

Changed to: "Demand for kerosine lamps would continue for decades. By 1920 electricity reached only 35 percent of homes in the United States." TwoScars (talk) 20:35, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

• A second announcement said that the new glass works would be managed by someone with "a reputation for making fine colored ware second to no man in the glass trade".[31] The plant superintendent was later identified as Nicholas (Nick) Kopp Jr, who had been working as the chemist at Hobbs Glass Company in Wheeling, West Virginia. this can be one sentence, even just with trade",[31] The plant superintendent was later although preferably more concise

I'm going to need some examples/suggestions for this. It is important to have the part about Kopp being the chemist at Hobbs Glass because that was one of the most prestigious and innovative glass companies in the U.S. In the 1860s, the Hobbs chemist (William Leighton Sr.) discovered a new formula for crystal that revolutionized glass for fine glassware. Numerous former Hobbs employees, including Michael Joseph Owens, were involved with startups of other glass factories. See List of Glass Companies Led by Former Employees of Hobbs, Brockunier and Company. I'm not sure how to concisely combine those two sentences while still mentioning Hobbs. TwoScars (talk) 15:58, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

I'm going to write a user essay about this I think to point editors to. I am not a strong writer, hence why I try to flag issues more than rewrite, but:

"Nicholas (Nick) Kopp Jr was hired as plant superintendent, who had been working as the chemist at Hobbs Glass Company in Wheeling, West Virginia."

We don't need to mention that they announced they were going to hire him and then that they publicly revealed that they had hired him. That quote is nothing unfortunately; investors describing the man they're hiring to the public as one of the best glassmakers is... they're not a RS to say the least, and even with attribution it takes more than it gives. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 17:40, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

Made change using that exact sentence (I think it is a little odd as one sentence). Dropped quote and footnote about sources for announcement of second to none etc. TwoScars (talk) 18:24, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

• Same with . Eventually, the ruined factory site was

Changed to "The Buttler Art Glass site was offered for sale on February 20 and eventually sold to another group of investors (including Foster) that formed the Novelty Glass Company." TwoScars (talk) 16:02, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

• , unproven, redundant

I find the definition of "lore" as "the body of knowledge, esp. of a traditional, anecdotal, or popular nature, on a particular subject". It does not say the body of knowledge is possibly untrue or doubtful. Here is what the source says: "When orders became so heavy at Fostoria Shade and Lamp for Kopp and he was required to have three shifts of men, he tried not to mix languages. Instead, Kopp had one shift speak French, another German and the third English. An interesting local story: it may even be true." That is why I think it is important, and not redundant, to have "unproven" in the sentence. For now, I have removed "unproven"—but if I have convinced you it should be back in, let us put it back in. TwoScars (talk) 16:45, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

Add it back in. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 17:40, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

Added back in. TwoScars (talk) 18:24, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

• What are jobbers?

Wikilinked to Jobber (merchandising). An alternative would be to replace "jobber" with "wholesalers and resellers", but the source uses the term "jobber". TwoScars (talk) 16:45, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

I think just substitute it. Archaic terms should be avoided, and having to hover or click blue links breaks the reading experience. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 17:40, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

Substituted. TwoScars (talk) 18:27, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

• As the largest lamp producer in the United States, and with a plant run by a famous chemist, Did Kopp gain fame here or earlier?

Earlier, "here", and later. In the Beginning section it was established that announcements described him as someone with "a reputation for making fine colored ware second to no man...". He was chemist at one of the best glass companies in the world: Hobbs. Paquette, on page 203 (part of the citation), says "Kopp continued to develop, produce and introduce to the trade...an increasing variety of ware in infinite shapes, sizes, styles and colors." The Consolidated Lamp section mentions that in 1894 he developed a formula for making ruby glass using selenium instead of gold. More on that will be in the Consolidated Lamp and Glass Company article: the lower cost red glass "arrived" at the time the auto industry was beginning to grow. TwoScars (talk) 16:45, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

Referring to my earlier comment. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 17:40, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

Dropped the ", and with a plant run by a famous chemist" part. TwoScars (talk) 18:31, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

• for the set redundant

Dropped "for the set". TwoScars (talk)

• and bringing deflation and a high unemployment to the nation redundant

Dropped. TwoScars (talk) 16:54, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

• Note 1 duplicates material already in the article.

Removed note. TwoScars (talk) 16:57, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

• The 1890 Annual Report of the Geological Survey of Ohio agreed that the fuel for the new company was natural gas, but listed the furnace as 16 pots. Why but?

Changed to "The 1890 Annual Report of the Geological Survey of Ohio lists the fuel for the new company as natural gas with furnace of 16 pots.[2] This differs in size from the 10-pot natural gas furnace cited by Paquette, who used the Fostoria Review as his source." TwoScars (talk) 20:48, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

• Note 4 goes into too much unnecessary detail, can be cut.

Changed to "The J.H. Hobbs, Brockunier and Company was reorganized with name changes multiple times over a period of about 50 years. Each version of the company name included "Hobbs"." TwoScars (talk) 20:58, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Suggestions

• More subheadings in the background section

Inserted "Glassmaking" and "Ohio gas boom" as subheadings TwoScars (talk) 15:34, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

• Consider using Template:Inflation/fn

Would be good to know about this template. Where is an example of it being used. In the Fostoria Shade article, the term "inflation" and "deflation" are no longer used, so I'm not sure where this template would be useful. TwoScars (talk) 17:00, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

Costello's#Inflation. You can use it where Template:inflation is used: rose shaker prices, "Originally, this lamp sold for $4". Not part of GA criteria, up to you. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 17:40, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

So it generates a footnote that tells how the current dollars figure was derived? I will play around with it in a sandbox. TwoScars (talk) 18:41, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

Source review

• Is Allison Sheridan (ref 21) a subject matter expert?

She (through a university) is used for one sentence, which is not a very disputable one. I added two more sources to that citation, although the third source (American Oil & Gas Historical Society) has ads at the bottom. Should the AOGHS be removed? TwoScars (talk) 19:59, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

Spot check:

1) The city of Fostoria, already blessed with multiple railroad lines, was close enough to the natural gas that it could use a pipeline to make natural gas available to businesses. N

Unsure what Sabine is adding.

The Sabine map shows the five railroads running through Fostoria. Fostoria is in western Seneca County, and has small parts in eastern Hancock and Wood counties. All glass companies were located on waterways or railways. TwoScars (talk) 20:13, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

The text reads that the multiple railway lines make it particularly desireable, when a comparison with other sites is not made in Sabine (i.e. is that unusual?). Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 03:43, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Consider linking the Internet Archive's copy of Paquette

Linked. (I did not know the book was in the archive—I have my own copy.) TwoScars (talk) 13:17, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

I don't see anything in the Paquette page about rail.

Added page 171 to Paquette citation. It says, while discussing Fostoria before the glass companies, "...and, most importantly, trunklines of several railroads, which enhanced its growing grain shipping enterprise."

2) Less than a week later, Brown announced that he, Graham, and other Buttler Art Glass investors would build a factory to manufacture colored shades, lamps, and novelties. Y}

3) Despite the news releases about the new glass works, the Fostoria Shade and Lamp Company was not formally organized until after it was announced that Kopp was hired. Y

4) By August, one journal reported that the company's beautiful pressed lamps were selling "like hot cakes". I can't access the source, AGF offline source Y

5) A publication released in 1998 valued a rare pair of these rose shakers, with a holder, at $710 to $730 (equivalent to $1,346 in 2023) for the set. I can't access the source, AGF offline source Y

Other

• Broad, neutral, stable (would be funny if I penalized this) Y
• Images appropriately tagged Y

Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 04:33, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Almost caught up. Will look for replacement for Sheridan. Sabine shows multiple railroads in Fostoria, but will look for a source (probably Skrabec) that mentions them. One or two items (unproven, Kopp) need your thoughts. TwoScars (talk) 17:06, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

I think I am caught up for now. TwoScars (talk) 20:14, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

I think I am caught up. TwoScars (talk) 15:58, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Excellent article, a joy to review. I'm stepping away from GAN, so I apologise for the delay at closing the review. One last comment, but not enough to hold the article up, and I trust you to address as you see fit. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 03:45, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.