Talk:Fourth International (ICR)

Sections

Are there any references for this? --Duncan (talk) 15:38, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm quite sceptical about the large number. 44 sections makes them bigger than the CWI (42 sections) for example, which is broadly seen as the second largest international Trotskyist organisation after the Fourth International (59 sections and supporting organisations).85.147.184.31 (talk) 07:07, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Yes, that is how many were represented at the last World Congress, the 7th World Congress of the FI. I even left a few out because I wasn't sure of their status, especially in Francophone Africa. The sheer number of sections is really irrelevant, it's where, IMO, they are that counts, and, of course, what influence or how active the are. For example...the USFI has...4 sections in Japan? Two full and two symp? I may not be reading it right but it looks like division of a whole. Also there are groups close to the FI (La Verdad) that are not listed, in some cases, for security reasons.

The CWI claims these 42 affilates, for example, and I have no reason to not to believe them. However, on their web site, barely 30 are mentioned. The IMT, same.

What's more interesting, and I might brush up this FI ("ICR") page but we should all consider this for all the various trotskyist internationals, are the size and influence of their important sections. For example, the very large Pakistani group of the IMT is both influential and numbers well over 1500, even after the recent split. The CWI has a large Nigerian section and the FI (ICR) has large sections in France, Algeria and S. Africa. Of course these things *change* regularly with splits and failures, new groups growing etc. The LIT, which at one time WAS the biggest Trotskyist tendency internationally was based almost entirely in two countries. How current should we keep wiki entries?DavidMIA (talk) 23:26, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Just to add another point about this, Duncan, is that the FI (LaVerite) A better name since they keep that as a theoretical journal and since the article correctly states there was no more "ICR" after 1993, we ought to change the name somehow. Anyway, the point: the reason you doubt the existence of the 44 sections is because unlike the USFI or the CWI or IMT, the FI clearly has a very low and almost non-existent Internet presence. Their largest section, in Algeria, has one very old, barely updated web site. It's easy to 'count' when the web sites have all these nice listings and professional web sites.

Secondly, many of these sections are in countries that have no other organized Trotskyist presense at all BUT the FI La Verite. The CWI, for example, has members only in Nigeria, that I'm aware of. Maybe S. Africa too. Have the people in Burundi? Togo? Chad? So what is "broadly seen" is actually quite narrowly seen. Here is another example. In S. Africa the FI has a large group in the Socialist Party of Azania. They are, however, geogrpahically isolated in a few townships and cities. I once ask these comrades if they heard of the Workers International Vanguard League. The WIVL has actually about 200 members in S. Africa and also located in townships. To this day neither the WIVL nor the Trotskyists in SOPA have even heard of each other except through me! I thought this was rather funny but it's true. Thus most everyone else will not run, ever, into these other apparently geographically isolated Trotskyists.

More you noted that the NSSP might be the largest of the USFI groups. I believe you. You could never really tell as their web site has so little news about them, is years old, is poorly designed it almost looks abandoned. Yet clearly they are far more focused on other things than the internet. 'nff said. DavidMIA (talk) 05:41, 8 December 2009 (UTC)