Talk:Foveaux Strait

GAN

User:Marshelec and User:Cloventt. I have submitted this article as a nominee - it would be nice if a NZ Wikipedian would review it - I definitely don't want this article to be in a similar situation with the Aoraki / Mount Cook National Park article where it's been waiting for 4 months, any further comments and contributions to the article is appreciated. Alexeyevitch^(talk) 08:10, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

The first thing I notice while reading it is "The". I don't normally hear Foveaux Strait with the definite article when people mention it. Is this a Wikipedia house style thing? Daveosaurus (talk) 08:54, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Looking at the article as it stands today, I think it would not meet Criteria 1 of the Good Article criteria at WP:GACR. Significant work is required to achieve the quality of prose that is expected for GA quality assessment. There are several ways of proceeding from this point. One is to withdraw the GA nomination, and submit the article to the Guild of Copy Editors at WP:COPYEDITORS. However, there is a backlog, and there might not be any response from the Copy Editors for several months. Another option is to work with another editor, perhaps in a series of online meetings, to gradually work through the text line-by-line to discuss and implement necessary improvements. If you think this is a sensible approach, please consider inviting someone to take on this role to support you in getting the article to a standard where it would have a reasonable chance of passing a GA assessment. One point of feedback apart from prose is that usually, a Good Article will have an Infobox. For examples see Cook Strait and Bosporus._Marshelec (talk) 08:56, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

User:Panamitsu made some helpful contributions to the article this eveining... I realized that the Cullen 1967 ref is ideal for the geology section, and I also realized that I mistakenly said it was the Turnbull book citation, so ignore that. Both sources are great for this article. Alexeyevitch^(talk) 10:16, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

As per WP:GACN, infoboxes are not part of the criteria for a GA, but it doesn't hurt to add one.

I think the prose generally does meet the criteria in that it is clear and concise with correct spelling and grammar. A quick skim reveals some possible words to watch, but I don't think it would fail GAN on Criteria 1. David Palmer//cloventt ^(talk) 22:38, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Marshelec has made some necessary improvements on the article today. Also, if your interested in reviewing this article, please consider getting back to me. Thanks. Alexeyevitch^(talk) 02:34, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Lede improvements

In order to get this article up to GA status... we will need a concise lede that summarizes the content well. I will improve content in the lede today - could be expanded, feel free to add and improve content. Alexeyevitch^(talk) 12:11, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Wildlife section

Hello everyone, I'm worried that the wildlife section isn't well-written and is up to a professional standard, which a good article should have. Someone may trim or improve the content that's there already because it's worth covering. I'll improve this section a bit more since we now have the McClellan 2020 ref. Feel free to help. Alexeyevitch^(talk) 05:22, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

I will happily have a go at improving this section. Marshelec (talk) 06:33, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Shipwrecks and tragedies at sea in Foveaux Strait

I think that this article is not complete without a list of the more notable tragedies at sea that have occurred in Foveaux Strait. As one example, the sinking of the fishing boat, The Easy Rider, on 14 March 2012 caused the loss of 8 lives, making it New Zealand's worst maritime disaster since the sinking of the Wahine.[1], [2]. I suspect that there are many, and if so, that a table or list might be better than prose. Is someone willing to search across various sources and build a list ? _Marshelec (talk) 06:43, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Okay, I will work it on my sandbox first before implementing it to the article when suitable. Chapter 12 of Bain (2010) citation has a dedicated section to shipwrecks, which is a good repository to find them then cite more sources about it. Alexeyevitch^(talk) 07:52, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

 Done, I have insterted a wikitable in the article with notable shipwrecks, feel free to add something I've missed. Alexeyevitch^(talk) 09:04, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

According to New Zealand Shipwrecks 1795-1975 by C W N Ingram, 5th Edition 1977, the following shipwrecks have occurred in Foveaux Strait (those without fatalities have been struck): 1836, Unidentified wreck; 1864, 'Jack Frost'; 1870, 'Laughing Water'; 1877, 'Halcyon'; 1879, 'Helen and Jane'; 1881, 'Arrow'; 1883, 'Lillie Denham'; 1884, 'Marie Ange'; 1885, 'Champion'; 1888, 'Nellie'; 1892, 'Camille'; 1898, 'Philadelphia'; 1899, 'Aparima'; 1913, 'Iris'; 1923, 'Moana'; 1930, 'Mararoa'; 1937, 'Black Cat'; 1942, 'Horouta'; 1954, 'Sea Mew'; 1955, 'Te Konini'; 1959, 'Reo Moana'; 1960, 'Madge'; 1967, 'Cascade'; 1971, 'Seabird'; 1973, 'Waimanu'; 1974, 'Malibu'.

That's just the index entry for Foveaux Strait. For Waipapa Point the index is: 1843, 'Lunar'; 1876, 'William Ackers'; 1881, 'Tararua'; 1892, 'Star of Erin'. There's another list for Bluff, listing 26 wrecks including 1939, 'Waikouaiti'.

There's a short article on each wreck. I can add each of these to the article, or only those with fatalities (including those with assumed fatalities like the wreck of 1836), or this may be sufficient information to look these up yourselves. I also have the 3rd edition of the book, 1961, which I'm happy to post to anyone who wants it.-Gadfium (talk) 03:47, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Done for those with fatalities, including some from the next edition of NZ Shipwrecks, which I don't have but was summarised in a Southland Times article. I haven't looked at ones indexed under "Bluff".-Gadfium (talk) 05:06, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

@Gadfium: Thanks for your research and offer - that is greatly appreciated as we work to improve this article. I seek your opinion - is it now best to create a new list article for the shipping losses and fatalities, leaving just a summary and/or most notable points in the main article, or do you think it would be OK to expand the list in the main article and include all the additional shipwrecks you have noted ? Tragedies at sea are a big part of the full story of Foveaux Strait, but I wonder if greatly increasing the length of the list might unbalance the article in terms of readability. Your thoughts ??_Marshelec (talk) 06:14, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

The table is already more than 10% of the article. I haven't yet looked to see which of the wrecks listed above resulted in fatalities, but it seems likely that would at least double its size, and I agree that's too much for this article. There is no Shipwrecks in New Zealand article, but there is a table at List of shipwrecks of Oceania#New Zealand. I suggest that I add the content anyway (probably starting tomorrow), and we decide what to do with the table when we look at it in its expanded state.-Gadfium (talk) 06:51, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, that is a sensible approach. We can move the list to a new article when the table is further developed. Creating a summary might be a challenge because it could be hard to know what to focus on. I will wait to see the full table, and then have a go at a short narrative summary._Marshelec (talk) 06:54, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

The table is now over 15% of the article. One option would be to collapse it once you've written a summary.-Gadfium (talk) 05:12, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Cheers Gadfium for the work on shipwrecks.

There were fatalities in the wreck of the Wm. Ackers (I always see the name abbreviated, not spelt out in full, but don't have the shipwrecks book handy), their names may be in a later report.

I know of two sets of fatalities from capsized or wrecked whaleboats at Orepuki a few days apart - three men were lost in March 1875 and another seven were lost from another boat while searching for the bodies in April 1875. The reports are in Papers Past https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/ST18750324.2.7 and https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/ST18750409.2.8 . Daveosaurus (talk) 02:49, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

@Daveosaurus@Gadfium Thanks, I have added two rows for the two whaleboat wrecks and fatalities in 1875._Marshelec (talk) 03:51, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

The lead

There is still more content worth adding to the body of this article. As one example, more work is needed on Transport, and the impact of Foveaux Strait and the ferry services on the economy of Stewart Island. It is often the case that content in the body needs to be well-developed before it is clear what is worth including in the lead, so it may be best to hold off work on the lead until the current round of expansion is complete. I suggest we plan on reviewing the lead, so that it only covers the most important and notable aspects of the topic. There is useful guidance here: MOS:INTRO. With regards to the length of the lead, there is guidance here: MOS:LEADLENGTH. The article is currently under 2,500 words of readable prose, so the guidance indicates just one or two paragraphs._Marshelec (talk) 03:57, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Fair point, Marshelec. We also need to make it written up to a professional standard. I will work on the body of this article - wildilfe section could be better. Alexeyevitch^(talk) 04:42, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Sure, but I am also happy to contribute to that section as well, to fulfil my commitment. :) I have been distracted by other things, but might be able to work on this tomorrow. Let's see what we can come up with :)._Marshelec (talk) 06:09, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

I appreciate that. This article has had some really good progress this past week. Alexeyevitch^(talk) 06:27, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Other names

It briefly being called Tees Strait, or the proposal to rename it to Kupe Strait (and other renaming proposals?) could perhaps be mentioned. (https://gazetteer.linz.govt.nz/place/20969) toweli (talk) 00:21, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Seems good, do you think a toponymy section is notable of being included here or merged into the history section? Alexeyevitch^(talk) 01:19, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

 Partly done, I'm not sure where Kupe Strait should be mentioned, maybe at the bottom of the history section since that was in 1968? Alexeyevitch^(talk) 09:13, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Proposing FA

User:Marshelec, I propose we get this article up to "Featured status", this is a genuinely good article but still has some way to go. I was mesmerized by looking at the criteria, and I truly think we can get this article up to FA status. Thanks for your valued contributions. Please reach back out to me if your intereseted or have any suggestions. Alexeyevitch^(talk) 00:53, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

It is great to have a bold and audacious goal 😃. If and when this article is assessed as meeting the GA standard then I would be willing to continue work towards FA. I have only been involved in helping one article towards FA. That was Kereru. The standard required for FA is extremely high. Achievable only with significant efforts probably over several months. In the meantime, there is still work remaining to be done to expand content for GA assessment. I have found many useful sources about the history of the ferry services and will try to develop that later today.

On a personal note, my last 24 hours have been difficult. My rather valuable road bike was stolen from outside a cafe yesterday when a thief cut the cable lock. I reported to the Police, and was delighted to get a phone call late last night that they had recovered my bike and arrested a suspect. I picked up my bike this morning, so it has been a turbulent 24 hours ! Marshelec (talk) 01:26, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

I'm glad that you recovered your bike. :-) I realized that a FA takes substantial amount of work to get the article up to a professional standard, the Kererū article is exceptionally well-written and meets the criteria. I think if this article would be a successful GA it would be a good exemplar to other strait articles (e.g Cook Strait). I will continue improving this article before moving on to the Cook Strait article needs to be significantly improved. Thanks. Alexeyevitch^(talk) 01:50, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Transport section - proposed migration to other articles

I propose to migrate all detailed content about transport from this article into Stewart Island, leaving just a short summary and link in this article to the new Transport section I propose for the Stewart Island article. I will also migrate some of the content about air services to Invercargill Airport and Stewart Island Flights as appropriate, and some content about ferry services into Bluff Harbour. The rationale is that the services are fundamental to Stewart Island and the services are typically named Stewart Island or Rakiura. It seems likely that readers would expect to find detailed content about transport in the article about the island, rather than having to link to this article. However, I propose to retain summaries here with links. I will continue to add further content about transport across Foveaux Strait here for the meantime, but please comment on this proposed migration before I go ahead._Marshelec (talk) 19:43, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

@Alexeyevitch, Gadfium, Cloventt, and Panamitsu: I have now expanded the section on the Ferry service, and will soon start on expanding Air services. However, I am keen to get feedback on whether or not to migrate the detailed content of these sections to Stewart Island, leaving only a summary and link in this article. I am uncertain, and would appreciate your input. Thanks _Marshelec (talk) 08:37, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

My opinion is that because the travel is mainly to/from Stewart Island, as you mention, I agree that the more detailed content should be on the Stewart Island article, as you propose. I do however think that it is important that we cover at least some transport in this article though. ―Panamitsu (talk) 08:57, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

I agree with Panamitsu. Detailed coverage at Stewart Island, brief mention here.-Gadfium (talk) 09:06, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

Agreed, we need to trim/summarize the content in that section and have a more engaging prose. Alexeyevitch^(talk) 09:12, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

Proposed fish farm in Foveaux Strait

@Alexeyevitch. I think a small section is needed about proposed large scale fish farms off the Stewart Island coast in Foveaux Strait. Here is one source about the application being declined, but there will be lots of other sources, including some we have already cited.[3] I think further proposals for aquaculture are likely. Perhaps a project like this might be pushed through using Fast Track Approvals ?? Would you like to write up a short section - perhaps to go beneath Bluff oyster fishery ? Marshelec (talk) 23:47, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Okay, this deserves a breif mention but I don't want to go too off-topic per WP:WIAFA, under the Bluff oyster industry seems appropriate. Can you also please help me work on the prose of the article? good progress has been made so far but I feel like it could be a bit more engaging. We've done a good job today on the Fauna section, I will improve the refs this afternoon, adding archives and maybe finding a sligtly better source for one of them. Thanks. Alexeyevitch^(talk) 00:38, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Another closely-related topic that needs some coverage is fishing in Foveaux Strait (other than for oysters) - both commercial and recreational. Here are some sources: [4], [5], [6], [7] (marginal). Would you like to write up something ?_Marshelec (talk) 03:49, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Good idea - I have started work on this section. Alexeyevitch^(talk) 05:08, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Early history - sealers and whalers

@Alexeyevitch I think it would be useful to have a bit more content in the History section about sealers and whalers operating in Foveaux Strait - perhaps a solid paragraph about sealing and some expansion about whaling. The article mentions the Solanders, but I presume there were significant bases for whaling and sealing in other locations that were inside the area we have defined as Foveaux Strait. The list of citations shows many works that appear to be about the history of sealing and whaling, but we don't have much factual content about those topics in the article at present. I have seen in the National Library catalogue that they have a book: Early Days in Foveaux Strait [8]. This book is already cited in the article, but it is only used at present to support a sentence about geography, not history. This seems odd. I may be able to get to the National Library during the week to view their copy. I will also try to get access to some of the other sources, with the aim of finding something useful to support some expansion. If you have access to some of the other sources, perhaps you may also be able to find something useful to add. On a different matter - but still related to sources, can you please check out the DOI given for Jacomb et al (2010) Review of the archaeology of Foveaux Strait, New Zealand. The doi link brings up an error for me._Marshelec (talk) 09:05, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

I just managed to get access to a full text copy of Jacomb et al (2010), via the Wikipedia Library. I will begin there. Marshelec (talk) 09:24, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Hello Marshelec, I am interested in expanding and improving content related to that, I read one of the sources and the American whaleships seemed like an interesting fact/important to add, more could be added it will need to be relatively concise and well-sourced. I will be able to work on some content here tomorrow, today... I was adding Māori history content to Christchurch neighborhoods that previously had no mention at all! with the help of my "Beattie (1945) Maori Place Names Of Canterbury" book, it's great. In the Foveaux Strait article, I think the geography section should be above the history section, is this a good proposal or not?

I apreciate the work you've done, especially on the fauna (IBA) and fishing, I didn't realize that muttonbirding were as important as the oysters in the strait, it is significant to Ngāi Tahu, I acknowledge that. I also think the current prose of the article is better then before, which is good.

I wanted to get a copy of the Early Days in Foveaux Strait (2020) book likewise, I tried to find a copy online but no luck, seems like a great source to use in this article.

I realized I am getting the same error, I originally got the source from here see: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/259834341_Review_of_the_archaeology_of_Foveaux_Strait_New_Zealand I think it's a typo from them, correct the doi if I am wrong. I personally use Research Gate far more then using news sources, it seems easier to find encyclopedic content on there. Alexeyevitch^(talk) 09:36, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

I just realized that it generally shouldn't be used so... I'll find a better ref for that, although I have seen featured articles in the past use it as a citation. Alexeyevitch^(talk) 10:01, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

That's been published in the Journal of the Polynesian Society, which is peer reviewed according to its website, so it should be fine. ―Panamitsu (talk) 10:09, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Order of sections

@Alexeyevitch I have created a Scope section to describe the extent of Foveaux Strait, and added this as the first section. I think it is helpful to have the Toponymy and History sections immediately adjacent because of the connection between the content, and also for Geography to be followed by Sea conditions. However, some small expansion in Geography is needed that gives a bit more background to why the waters are so rough. I will try to find something useful. I looked at article templates for some guidance about section order. There aren't many templates, and most are not particularly relevant, but I did find Template:Article templates/River has History first, then the course of the river. Template:Article templates/Park has Description and then History. Template:Article templates/City has Entymology, then History, then Geography. So there is little consistency. See what you think._Marshelec (talk) 20:56, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Okay, looks reasonable. Alexeyevitch^(talk) 21:43, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

What's missing ?

@Alexeyevitch As is usual with work like this, the most difficult thing when you get to this stage is identifying what is missing. Does it provide the reader with good coverage of the topic (sufficient to clearly meet the criteria in Wikipedia:Good article criteria).? It is easy to critique and review what is written, but much harder to work out what is not there, but should be. At present, I think that the coverage is now close to meeting the GA #3 criteria (hopefully it is not far off from the "comprehensive" standard required for FA. However, the early history section still needs some expansion. More can be taken from Jacomb et al (2010) on the evidence of early Maori occupation around the shorelines, and for sealing and whaling, it would be useful to include some of the major "stations" on the shores of Foveaux Strait, if we can find suitable sources. I will take a break for a day or two to reflect and see if I can come up with anything else that should be covered._Marshelec (talk) 05:52, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

I wasn't able to find any more info in Jacomb et al (2010), this: https://docs.niwa.co.nz/library/public/NIWAis76.pdf is a good source to use for whaling info, I think we already cover the multiracial communities between sealers and Kāi Tahu, I think the prose is engaging in the history section at the moment. I was able to find a Te Ara source that may be useful to you see:https://teara.govt.nz/en/map/20100/whaling-in-foveaux-strait-1820s-to-1840s about the "stations" may be mentioned, seems like whaling is more notable than sealing, since the sealing industry was no longer economically feasible (which is a major fact IMO). I think the American whaleships in the Solanders is paticulary notable and should be kept, I think this article does a good job covereing Māori currently. The prose looks pretty good, but could be tweaked slightly so it's more engaging. Alexeyevitch^(talk) 06:30, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

I will analyze this article tomorrow - a bit of copyediting in the history section and I will need to decide where the SS Tararua image is appropriate, currently it might need to be replaced with more relevant media. I plan to attend an edit-a-thon on Saturday and will focus on other articles throughout the day. Hopefully someone is willing to review it soon. Alexeyevitch^(talk) 06:43, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

I have looked at several other articles about Straits, and identified a gap in this article. We need something brief about shipping, cruise vessels, tankers etc using Foveaux Strait. Here is one source: [9]. With regards to getting a GA review done, this may take a considerable period. My perception is that people volunteering to undertake GA reviews will (understandably) select articles that have been written/nominated by editors who already have a good track record with a substantial number of successful GA nominations, and/or have completed a substantial number of GA reviews. This means that your nominations may be passed over by many potential reviewers because they will see this is your first. I might be wrong in this assumption, but it seems likely to me. I suggest an alternative to just waiting ... that once we are both satisfied with the state of the article we approach some NZ-based editors individually and ask them if they would be willing. I know of a few that could be tried._Marshelec (talk) 08:06, 15 May 2024 (UTC)