Talk:Freeview (UK)/Archive 1

ITV or ITV 1

Just a note to say that Channel 3 is officially ITV, ITV1 only exists in England and Wales where a separate company ITV Plc Operates the franchises. keithgreer

Page now tweaked to reflect the distinction. --Spliced 14:49, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

The point is ITV1 as part of the national Network, ITV. It could possibly read something like "ITV (Regional); England & Wales (ITV1), Northern Ireland (UTV), Central Scotland (Scottish TV), Northern Scotland (Grampian TV), and Channel Islands (Channel TV)." If you make a distinction about ITV1 then I think you need to point out all the other regional broadcasting companies.Keith 15:10, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

The entry inevitably compromises between brevity and detail. I think your suggestion above errs on the side of excessive detail for a list entry, although I can see its logical consistency. My entry aims at a practical balance that reflects that 80% of the audience get ITV1, while a large minority get something else that falls under the ITV umbrella, and is short enough to fit in a single line of text on typical diplays. Those who want to know more can click on the links. BTW, there are no DTT transmitters on the Channel Islands yet AIUI. --Spliced 15:59, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

That is why I thought that just having a simple "ITV (Regional)" would cover all regional franchises which broadcast on the Channel 3 network in their relevant areas of the UK. The way it is currently worded is over complicating things suggesting at in Scotland & NI, they get a channel called ITV, which they do, but only as much as people in England and Wales do. But if you feel it is important to identify the regional name of the channel in England, I have changed the wording slightly to give prominence to the National Network. Keith 19:27, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

That will do nicely. Thank you. --Spliced 20:22, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

I hate to ruin your agreement, but the channel is officially called ITV1 according to OfCom. All the regions agreed to rename the channel ITV1. The decision was not taken by Carlton or Granada (who are now ITV plc), but by the ITV Network Limited, which is made up of all the ITV companies. The fact that Scottish, Grampian, Ulster and Channel choose not to use the ITV1 name onscreen is irrelevant (they don't use ITV either). Furthermore, in Wales (which is only half an ITV1 region), it's called ITV1 Wales. Since we are listing the national name for the channel, it should be ITV1. Furthermore, the ITV1 article that it links to has all the information about the channel, whereas ITV is purely historical. - Green Tentacle 15:49, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

Erm... Sorry, but I'm not sure where you are getting "the channel is officially called ITV1 according to OfCom". Ofcom work according to the 1990 Broadcasting Act and so call it "Channel 3" See: http://www.ofcom.org.uk/tv/ifi/tvlicensing/c3/ for an "offical" example. When they use "ITV1" they are generally speaking unofficially about the brand for the channel rather than being official. I think it probably should link to ITV1 as that is where the information about the channel is held, but we probably ought to think about tidying up the set of pages to make it clearer to all. MrWeeble 16:24, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, I worded it badly. I known that Ofcom call it Channel 3. I meant that in their reports etc. they always call it ITV1. - Green Tentacle 16:29, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

What they may or may not have "agreed" on is irrelevant - can you prove it in the first place? - but they aren't called that. On air, or anywhere else. Even if they may all change to being called "ITV1" in the future, WP:NOT a crystal ball

Currently its ITV1, Scottish, Grampian and UTV. Not just "ITV1". And the legal name for the network is Channel 3. Either Channel 3 or the current situation should be used, not ITV1. --Kiand 16:11, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

I thought this was sorted out las year, but obviously not.

The national name for channel 3 is 'ITV1'. It was previously 'ITV'. Back when it was ITV, none of the regions used the name ITV on air (they used their own name), but everyone knew and seemed to agree that that was its national name. In 2001, ITV Network Ltd (which is made up of all the ITV companies) made the decision to rename the channel 'ITV' (correction: ITV1). The decision was not taken by ITV plc because ITV plc did not yet exist and even now they do, they cannot make any changes to ITV1 without the others agreeing. This made absolutely no difference to the on-screen names because all the regions were using their own names. Since then, ITV plc have taken the decision to brand their regions simply as 'ITV1'. The other regions chose not to and carried on using the regional names that they had been using for 50-odd years.

Therefore, it is obvious that the national name for the network is 'ITV1'. Even Scottish TV call it this. Look on page 37 of this report. In a channel list, the name of the channel should be used, not any particular branding. We don't list BBC One as 'BBC One (England and the Channel Islands) / BBC One Scotland (Scotland) / BBC One Wales (Wales) / BBC One NI (Northern Ireland)' even though it is always known by those names on air. Why should we for ITV1?

Furthermore, listing the regional names separately makes it look as those they are separate channels, when they are not. Also, try watching ITV1 in Wales - it's not branded 'ITV1' there either.

So the name should be listed as 'ITV1 (regional)', which gives the name of the channel and also indicates that it is a regional service. If a reader wants to know more about the channel, they will click on its name and arrive at the ITV1 article where they can find out about the regional structure and various branding used in the different regions and, also, at different times of the day.

Also, Kiand, please don't imply that I said that the 'ITV1' brand would be used on-air in the other regions in the future. I said no such thing. If I was going to predict the future, I'd say that both Scottish and Grampian will soon be rebranded as STV on-air. - Green Tentacle 17:38, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

There was nothing "sorted out", the only person proposing ITV1 name-assimilation was -you-. The name of the network is ITV, the Ofcom name of the channel is Channel 3. Nowhere, no way, no how is it "ITV1". SMG using the term in a report means nothing. You even yourself say that ITV Network limited renamed it to "ITV", not ITV1.

If you're going to insist on refering to it by one name, the only one thats possible accurate is "ITV" not "ITV1". --Kiand 18:25, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Whoops, bit of a typo in my previous comment. It was meant to say 'ITV1'. Corrected it now. Sorry for the confusion. The name ITV1 was agreed upon by all the ITV companies and the name ITV Network Ltd calls the channel. The fact that Scottish TV used it in a report shows it being used in an everyday context. What Ofcom calls the channel is irrelevant; they call Five 'Channel 5', but no-one's suggesting that should be used on the list. I am not the only one who says it should be called 'ITV1', given that other people have also corrected the name and that the ITV1 article is named as such. You seem to be the only person not wanting it to be called ITV1. - Green Tentacle 19:23, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

I reset the indent for a reason, this page is getting unreadable on small devices.

You, and another user are the only people who have been pushing for ITV1, not the other way around. You can't prove they all agreed on it, and the fact that ITV Network still uses "ITV" suggests that they didn't.

I don't want inaccurate names, or marketing spin to be used. Calling the network "ITV1" is a similar misinformation campaign to refering to satellite TV as "Sky" or DTT as "Freeview". In both cases, they may be the biggest player and wish that everyone did refer to them as that, but it'd still be wrong. --Kiand 19:29, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

But ITV Network uses the name 'ITV1'! Also, please look at the edit history and see that there are more than two people that have changed the name of the channel to ITV1 in the past. This isn't about branding, it's about the name and the fact is, no matter how much you deny it, that ITV Network Ltd, who are responsible for ITV1's national strategy, chose to rename the channel from 'ITV' to 'ITV1'. The article should reflect that. As the channel is not called ITV any more, listing it as 'ITV' is wrong. - Green Tentacle 20:31, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

No, it doesn't. ITV Network use ITV. Listing it as ITV1 is wrong. Not only do ITV Network use the term ITV, ITV PLC use it when refering to ITV as a whole for instance here, on their own About page. The company who own ITV1 acknowledging that the network isn't called that, hrm...

No matter how much you insist it, the channel isn't called ITV1. --Kiand 20:35, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, let's have a look at that page. Firstly, it says that 'ITV is the biggest commercial television network in the UK'. Here it is using the term 'network' to refer to ITV. As I am sure you are aware, a network is (according to Collins) 'an interconnected group or system', which in this case means the whole 'family' of ITV channels. The rest of the page details the individual channels and calls ITV1 - wait for it - 'ITV1'!

Secondly, that page is not, as you claim, from the ITV plc website. It is from the ITV site, which represents ITV Network Ltd. ITV plc have a separate website.

So, actually, the site you use for your arguement proves the exact opposite of what you say. You have offered absolutely no evidence that ITV1 is still called 'ITV' and simply dismiss any evidence offered in return with no good reason. Stop living in the past: the channel has been renamed ITV1. - Green Tentacle 20:54, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

No, its a site run by ITV PLC. I'm sorry that you can't comprehend basic fact. itv.com is owned and run by Granada Media, a divison of ITV PLC. ITV PLCs operative website for their interests in the ITV network is itv.com. The reason it refers to ITV as ITV1 is that that is is branding for it. It refers to the network, which is the entire channel, as ITV. Once again, logic fails you.

If anyone is living in something thats not reality, its you. The channel has never, ever been renamed "ITV1", despite what you claim and can never prove. --Kiand 05:12, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

The ITV site is run by Granda Media? Where's your evidence for that? Funnily enough, there is evidence to prove my point: every page contains the text 'Content © ITV Network Limited. All Rights Reserved'. Even if the site was run by Granada Media/ITV plc (and I'm sure they do play a fair part in it), what difference would it make: your entire argument seems to be that everything ITV plc about ITV1 is a lie, accompanied by untrue 'facts' about ITV Network calling it 'ITV'. Not exactly logical, is it? - Green Tentacle 16:37, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Whois data. Nice pure facts that you get, and proof. Unlike the non-proof you've never delivered for the other licencees "agreeing" to "change the name" when no such thing as happened. Copyright data refers to other information such as schedules, the site is ITV PLC's.

You haven't provided anything to back up your insistance that something that didn't happen "happened", and you continue trying to force one brandname for a channel to be used. You don't work for ITV Marketing do you?

I'm reverting again, because the channel isn't called ITV1. We either use ALL brands - ITV1, UTV, Scottish TV, Grampian TV; or NO brands - and use the actual name of the channel.

I appear to be arguing with a large wall here, except possibly denser. --Kiand 16:43, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Copyright data refers to other information such as schedules, the site is ITV PLC's.

Another 'fact' from you with absolutely no evidence!

Who the site was registered to (in 1994!) means nothing. The registrant of channel4.com is Register.com Inc. Does that mean that Channel 4 doesn't run the site?

The channel is called 'ITV1'. That's why Scottish TV call it ITV1; that's why all TV listings call it ITV1; that's why the Wikipedia article is at ITV1. It is not just a brand used by ITV plc. The channel was renamed about a year before ITV plc scrapped the region names.

You have provided absolutely no evidence that it wasn't renamed.

I'm changing the link back. It doesn't even matter what the channel is called: having a link titled 'ITV' when it actually goes to 'ITV1' is misleading to Wikipedia users and I don't believe we should be lying to our readers. And linking it to ITV is also misleading, as that article is not about any current television channel. - Green Tentacle 16:55, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

The article ITV1 is inaccurately named, hence piping links is entirely acceptable. I can't see why you continue fighting this, you're wrong, you've not been able to prove anything, and you can't counter the arguments. --Kiand 16:58, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Oh, and another issue. Between 6 and 9:25, Channel 3 on Freeview DOES NOT CARRY ITV1, no matter where you are. It carries GMTV. This is part of ITV as a channel, but is NOT ITV1 even in ITV1 regions. This makes using the brandname even more inaccurate than it already is. --Kiand 16:46, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, it still says 'ITV1' on my Freeview box when I tune to it. I am fully aware that the GMTV franchise broadcasts then (as it holds the national ITV1 breakfast-time franchise). And it uses its own name on-air, as it is entitled to. It doesn't use 'ITV1' and it doesn't use 'ITV' either. I'm struggling to see the relevance of your point. It doesn't prove anything either way. - Green Tentacle 17:03, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

It says UTV on my freeview box when I tune into it? theKeith 17:07, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

That is my point, as it has been all along. The station has never been renamed to ITV1, there is no mythical agreement you still haven't been able to prove. If you insist on using branding, ALL the branding should be used - this will give you your beloved "ITV1" but recognises that there are 4 other seperate services also on Channel 3. Other channels which are shared between services (8, for instance) have this. Oh, and as Keith has pointed out, your Freeview box says what the channel is actually called in your region, it doesn't show ITV1 outside of ITV1 areas, for obvious reasons. --Kiand 17:08, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I know it uses the regional name all day (be it ITV1 or another). That's not the issue. ITV1 isn't like channel 8 where three different services operate depending on the location. ITV1 is one channel made up of regional (and one national) franchises. The list should have its national name. I have offered lots of proof that the channel was renamed, but you just dismiss it. Here's some more from BBC News. The ITV chief executive quoted works for ITV Network Ltd. There was no ITV plc back then.

Anyway, I'm not going to bother correcting the article because it obviously means so much to you (more than the accuracy of Wikipedia, in fact). I will, however, point out that if you're going to use branding, you better change 'BBC One' to 'BBC ONE (England, Channel Islands and the Isle of Man) / BBC ONE Scotland (Scotland) / BBC ONE Wales (Wales) / BBC ONE NI (Northern Ireland)'.

Your list of ITV1 region names also contains many innacurracies (such as the name in Wales, southern Scotland, overnight in central and northern Scotland and, for added professionalism, grammatical errors), but seeing as your such an expert on these things, I'm sure you can work out what they are (from your vantage point outside the UK). Then again, apparently if you say something it must be true and everyone else has to find evidence to prove otherwise, so maybe they do have the names listed and the rest of us are just imagining things. - Green Tentacle 17:24, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

No, BBC One regions are all branded "BBC One $WHATEVER". ITV regions are NOT all branded "ITV $WHATEVER".

I'm demanding proof because you made an overblown statement that you can't back up, then proceeded to ask me for proof for something, which I supplied.

And if you're not going to change anything, I'm going to go back to listing just ITV, as this is a far less laden or complex method of refering to the channel as a whole, which includes all regions and GMTV, and overnight branding in other regions. I trust you won't be reverting this to your beloved brandname either if you said you weren't going to change anything. And it'll be factually accurate, something you seem to suggest you want, rather than being blatently wrong like listing "ITV1". --Kiand 17:28, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

I wanted to leave this, but oh, well. It is not blatently wrong to call it 'ITV1' as that it what the channel is called. It is wrong to call it 'ITV' because the channel is not called that anymore. I have supplied proof: the decision to rename it was taken by ITV Network Ltd, who are the only people authorised to make national decisions affecting ITV1. I provided a link to a BBC News story which has a quotation on the name change from the chief executive of ITV Network Ltd. The decision cannot possibly have been taken by ITV plc because they did not exist then. I have also provided proof that the name was adopted (though not on-air) by Scottish TV by linking to a report. I have also shown that the itv.com website (which always calls the channel 'ITV1' is run by ITV Network Ltd). Your only proof, on the other hand, is a webpage that always calls the channel 'ITV1'. That's not called proof where I'm from.

You can trust me not to change the article again because I said I wouldn't and I don't lie. You are right that I think the name listed should be the national name, not an endless list of regional names. However, that name is ITV1.

I also don't 'love' the name 'ITV1'. In everyday conversation, I refer to the channel as 'ITV'. However, Wikipedia is meant to be factually accurate and should use the official name. - Green Tentacle 17:46, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

If the national name was "ITV1", you might have a point. Buit its not. The "proof" for the supposed renaming of the network you provide is the then Chief Executive of ITV Plc and later to be Chief Exec of ITV Digital. Not the ITV Network. "Proof" nullified. The channel was never renamed to ITV1 nationally. Currently it IS factually accurate, at least on this article. --Kiand 17:59, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Erm, how could he have been the chief executive of ITV plc when ITV plc did not come into existance for another three years? As I said before, he was the chief executive of ITV Network Ltd, announcing that the network was renaming the channel 'ITV1'. If he later went on to be the chief executive of ITV Digital, then bully for him. Obvious lies won't prove your point. So, actually: proof proven. - Green Tentacle 18:23, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

oops, mistake. you made one yourself earlier. He was the Chief Executive of the ITV Network Centre at the time, and was later at ITV Plc. No "lies" involved. The ITV Network Centre and ITV Network Limited are NOT the same operation. So you're still wrong. Proof still non-existant that ITV Network Limited changed the name. --Kiand 18:45, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

BTW, ITVNC was the programming commisioning unit, thats all. Its since merged operations with, oh, ITV Digital, which itself was a part of Granda+Carlton, who are now ITV Plc. ITVNC became "ITV Channels" and renamed the channel to ITV1... in Granada and Carlton-controlled areas, which is now ITV Plc. The "rename" was ITV Plc branding. Thats it. --Kiand 18:49, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

But all this happened after ITV was renamed ITV1 in 2001. - Green Tentacle 18:54, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

No, ITVNC + OnDigital merged operations at the time that the Granada and Carlton ITV regions were rebranded in 2001, the rebrand being part of the operational merge (they're still seperate entities but operate as one). There was no renaming, have you still not grasped that? --Kiand 19:02, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

But the rebranding didn't happen in 2001 as you claim. It happened in 2002 - a year after the channel was renamed 'ITV1'. For a year, no-one was using the name 'ITV1' on-air, just like they weren't using 'ITV' before that. Why? Because 'ITV' was the name of the channel and then it was 'ITV1'. This didn't affect any of the regions because they were still using their regional names (though Central and Westcountry had been rebranded 'Carlton' by this time) on-air, just like Scottish, Grampian and UTV are now. - Green Tentacle 01:50, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

And as goes Wikipedia standards, I refer you to the Sky Digital EPG listing. This shows that they aren't all branded ITV1, and it also shows that its basically you on a one-man disinformation crusade to force ITV Plc branding upon all. --Kiand 17:12, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

IMO The text should read "3. ITV". ITV should be about ITV Network Limited with each region having their own page ITV1 (for England, Wales etc.), UTV (for Northern Ireland), Scottish TV (for Central Scotland) etc. theKeith 17:14, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

This is what I would also prefer, but if a certain Somebody insists on using regional brandnames, we use them all. --Kiand 17:17, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree completely, you cant just pretend that Scotland and Northern Ireland don't exist. theKeith 17:19, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm not pretending they don't exist. All I'm saying is that the national name of ITV1 is 'ITV1'. - Green Tentacle 17:46, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

No, its not. --Kiand 17:59, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Can you prove that it isn't? - Green Tentacle 18:23, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Licences, franchises. Usage by the network, the non ITV plc owned franchises, etc. Whereas all you can "prove" is that a then Granada and Carlton owned entity, the ITV Network Centre, "agreed" to change the name. e.g., ITV plc changed the name in its franchises to ITV1. Its still ITV outside of these area. Why you want to change to ITV plc's corporate line I'll never know. --Kiand 15:30, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

The licences all say 'Channel 3' actually; the network always calls itself ITV1; the non-ITV plc companies refer to it as ITV1 (see that Scottish TV report I linked to months ago)...

I don't want to change ITV's corporate line. I want an accurate encyclopaedia. ITV Network Centre is not 'owned' by Carlton and Granada. It represents the entire ITV Network (as its name implies). And they didn't take the decision: ITV Network Ltd did. They renamed the channel 'ITV1' a whole year before the completely separate business of rebranding the Carlton/Granada-owned franchises happened. It's not called 'ITV' outside these areas, its called generally STV or UTV. Expect for Channel, which uses ITV1. Hmm, a non-ITV plc-owned franchise uses ITV1. Your arguement really is starting to fall apart now...

The channel list used ITV1 for many months. It's only when I bother to correct the error-strewn listing that you correct it. Anyone would think you were stalking me. - Green Tentacle 15:44, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Channel uses it so they can use network branding, the 'decision' was taken by ITVNC not ITVN, as the single document you found connected to it showed, and ITVNC is no longer controlled by the Network but by ITV plc. Scottish using the term once, as thats all you found, doesn't prove anything - the majority of the time they refer to it as ITV, as that is its correct name.

Decisions take time to implement, as you could see with the extremely gradual creep of "Carlton" across Carltons franchises. This is where the "whole year" time discrepency comes from.

As goes "stalking" you, I have this page on my watchlist, which is why I saw you changing from the proper name of the network - which includes GMTV and Teletext, neither of which is ITV plc owned or called "ITV1" - to the 9:25am->6:00am, partial territory branding. Other than that, I have no interest in your edits. --Kiand 15:52, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

No, the document I found to prove it (which is more than you've found) showed that a spokesman from the ITV Network Centre commented on it. The decision was taken by ITV Network Ltd - the only people who can make national decisions about the channel (they are, funnily enough, based at ITV Network Centre). Where is your evidence that Scottish use 'ITV'?

Decisions do not necessarily take time to implement. Carlton did not creep in - they changed the on-screen names of Central and Westcountry on one day, with quite a degree of publicity I seem to remember. Interestingly, they never rebranded HTV. Similiarly, the ITV1 logo began being used on promotional material instantly in 2001, but nearly always alongside the regional name.

You also obviously don't watch this page that closely. First thing this morning the channel was listed as 'ITV1', as it has been for some time. Furthermore, it wasn't me that changed the proper name of the network; it was Morwen, then RobWill80. I merely corrected the list as it was completely innacurrate with regards to Wales, Southern Scotland, the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man. Then I thought that, rather than have a long list, we should just have the official name of the channel. Though, as I predicted, certain people can't handle the truth.

Nevertheless, I'm not going to bother correcting it again because getting one over me is obviously far more important to you than factual accuracy. I, on the other hand, have better things to do. - Green Tentacle 18:02, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I edited it because I do not believe "Channel 3" is appropriate for the purposes of this list. If you cannot settle on which to use - ITV or ITV1 - then maybe you should vote on it, instead of repeatedly editing/reverting the main article. RobWill80 19:02, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes I agree, I will start a straw poll on this issue below. Sonic 19:31, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

ITV or ITV1 Straw Poll

The following discussion is an archived debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Please sign your name using four tildes (~~~~) under the position you support, preferably adding a brief comment. If you are happy with more than one possibility, you may wish to sign your names to more than one place. Extended commentary should be placed below, in the section marked "Discussion", though brief commentary can be interspersed.

• ITV

1. Actual name, not a marketing term from one set of franchisers; refers to full network not 09:25->06:00 TV element in some areas, etc --Kiand 19:43, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
2. Proper name of the network. ITV1 refers to only England, Wales and to some extent the Channel Islands, not Scotland or Northern Ireland. theKeith 19:19, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
3. As per the Keith. Anything else is pretty imperialistic POV. Frelke 08:57, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
4. ITV is the name (for channel 3) which is in much more common use, in my experience; WP:NC(CN) may apply. On a more personal note, I think we should use common names; we are not obliged to perpetuate corporate branding efforts sinply because they are 'official'. For example, I think using 'Yahoo' is preferable to 'Yahoo!' even if 'Yahoo!' is the 'official' name of the portal company. Mike1024 (t/c) 12:00, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
5. According to the Ofcom's Website, the channel is primarily addressed as Channel 3, but the name underneath it ITV. All the franchises bear their real names, and oned owned by ITV Plc are under the name X Franchise ITV, eg Central ITV. As far as I am concerned, ITV1 was a brand name invented by Granada and Carlton to re-brand their franchises (in dual format at the time) after UBM flogged theirs off. No other franchises use it, and since when have you seen ITV1 advertised in Scotland/NI? I myself am unfortunately in an ITV Plc region and as far as I'm concerned, ITV1 is the replacement name for the franchise; the network still being ITV or Channel 3. Marbles333 16:01, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

   About that page you mentioned, I went back one page and found that those licences seem to be awarded to broadcasters (and in this case, network franchises), not channels (or regional channels). On that page, there are separate licences for Channel Four Television Corporation and Channel 5 Broadcasting Ltd. Pages at Ofcom with research and consultations, when referencing channels, have called the channel ITV1 nationally. Your last sentence said the name of the network is ITV or Channel 3, and I agree. The name of the network is not what is being disputed here. RobWill80 16:51, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

   But what is the Freeview LCN 3 issued to? The network, thats what. Hence it carrying the regional ITV licensee, GMTV and has the teletext data PIDs associated to it.

   I thought all the LCNs were issued to broadcasters (It seems straight forward, considering that some have changed their channels - e.g. Sky Travel/Sky Three). Besides, this is a channel list, not a network/broadcaster list. You wouldn't call LCNs 4, 13, 14, 31, etc. all "Channel Four", would you? RobWill80 17:50, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

   1/2/3/4/5 are issued to BBC 1, BBC 2, Channel 3, Channel 4, and Channel 5 respectively. LCN3 is hence the ITV Network - that is, the correct regional day/nighttime broadcaster, GMTV and Teletext. Similarly LCN4 is Channel 4 or S4C in the correct areas. This is Ofcom protected, as it is on Sky 101-105. This means that in no way at all is LCN3 "ITV1", considering this is a regional name for the day/night services in only certain areas. --Kiand 19:42, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

   This is how I understand it. Ofcom was ordered in Section 310 of the Communications Act 2003 to create a code of practice for EPGs. That code requires EPG providers to give appropriate prominence to Public Service Channels. The Act states what it defines as such. Which, concerning the ITV Network, is "any Channel 3 service in digital form". I take that to mean the channels of the network, not the network itself. RobWill80 01:02, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

   As far as I'm concerned, ITV1 is a franchise cover-up name. ITV1 is a cover-up name so Carlton and Granada don't have to have different names, continuity, graphics everywhere. If ITV1 is to be included on the article, perhaps it should mention independent franchises do not refer to it as ITV1 Marbles333 12:09, 20 June 2006 (UTC) .

   The alternatives mentioned in the third option of this poll are similar to your suggestion. RobWill80 17:49, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

• ITV1

1. I've proved this is the official name many times above; see also Talk:Freeview#ITV1 for more and possibly the most conclusive proof yet - Green Tentacle 19:50, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
2. I've read several Ofcom reports (and some responses to Ofcom from ITV) that refer to the channel, nationally, as ITV1. They use the terms ITV and ITV Network when speaking of broadcasters, not channels. Also, the DTG and Freeview websites list the channel as ITV1. RobWill80 00:06, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
3. Freeview refer to it as ITV1. Jt spratt 10:45, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

   Not in Scotland or NI.Frelke 08:58, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

   But we're not talking about what it's called regionally, we're talking about what it's called nationally - and they certainly don't call it ITV nationally. - Green Tentacle 16:02, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

   Who is 'they'? And what bearing do 'they' have on what it should be called on WP? Frelke 22:33, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

   Well, according to the original vote, 'they' are Freeview and if it's a list of Freeview channels then I'd say it would have a pretty big bearing on the listed name. - Green Tentacle 17:20, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

4. ITV call the channel ITV1 (eg itv.com). It probably shouldn't be called ITV, as this may refer to the whole group of channels (ITV1 - ITV4). I think it should be called "ITV1 (or regional version)". --H2g2bob

   That website is owned and operated by ITV plc, who are obviously going to use their branding. --Kiand 21:24, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

   It is still the website of the ITV Network. Someone has to own and operate it. And that site, as well as STV's, UTV's, and GMTV's do not call "ITV" a channel. RobWill80 22:04, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

   That would be because they effectively don't use the term at all. The only time "ITV1" is used on UTVs website is in their repeated smarmy comparisons of their (high) viewing figures to the (low) viewing figures that ITV gets in ITV1 franchises, for instance. As goes it being the site of the ITV Network, its lacking in anything other than a copyright statement to show that. Rapture TV copyright their website to a holding company that was declared dormant in 2002, doesn't make it the website of that company now does it? The very first link at the bottom being to ITV Plc kind of betrays this. --Kiand 22:24, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

   They do have a little more than a copyright statement. For one thing, there are links to this and this on the front page. It's true, they don't go into detail about the network, but I'm not too sure what else you would want to see there. The other websites I mentioned in my earlier comment (as well as that of ITV plc) don't have much detail on the network either. RobWill80 01:06, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

   Possibly because, oh, ITV plc want everyone to forget that such a thing as a "network" exists so that they can use their branding throughout? --Kiand 06:47, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

   Yes, I would agree with you there. But I don't see how my personal opinion of that affects matters. I still don't see any evidence that the channel is called ITV nationwide. RobWill80 14:57, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

5. All adverts on the channel refer to it as 'ITV1'. Referring to it as just 'ITV' will cause confusion with the other channels - ITV2, ITV3, ITV4, and ITV-Play. Madder 23:24, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

All the adverts on the channel in Northern Ireland refer to it as UTV, in central and northern Scotland the adverts refer to STV, it's only in England & Wales that the adverts refer to ITV1.  <font="center" color="#FFFFFF"> theKeith  Talk to me   00:31, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Many programmes shown nationally "advertise" the channel as ITV1 on-air: sports programmes advertising what's being shown over the coming days/weeks; programmes that feature interviews or reviews that promote a show on ITV1 (this includes GMTV); programmes that have "spin-offs" on other ITV channels; and so on. RobWill80 11:55, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Would these be programmes made for/by GMTV (75% ITV plc), or ITV Productions (100% ITV plc)?  <font="center" color="#FFFFFF"> theKeith  Talk to me   12:30, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

I will debate that point with you when I see non-ITV plc regions produce programming that advertise the channel at a national level. RobWill80 14:57, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

• Other - please add suggestion to your comment

1. It's simplistic, but this as a compromise, considering that the ITV Network ("ITV") is a group of channels, not a channel in itself. As this is a channel list, use the basic names of the regional channels as separate entities:

   3. ITV1 (regional service (Editor's Note: or "regional service of ITV"); England and Wales only), STV (regional service (Note: see ITV1); Scotland only) or UTV ((Note: see ITV1) Northern Ireland only)

   It doesn't go into too much detail (again, this is a list). If desired, add the Channel Islands as a separate entity. The list in the DTT article would be styled to make the LCN 3 entry look similar to that of LCN 4 (Channel 4/S4C) RobWill80 15:10, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

   But what about Southern Scotland (part of the Border region) where it is called 'ITV1'? The Isle of Mann is also not accounted for on that list. Also, it is called 'ITV1 Wales' in Wales. The problem is that there are still too many regional names to list them all, so we need one national name. The problem there, of course, is that some people refuse to believe that the national name of the channel changed from ITV to ITV1, despite the fact this happened a year before the rebranding of the Carlton/Granada franchises and that the likes of STV happily use ITV1 to refer to the channel nationally. - Green Tentacle 16:02, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

   It also doesn't account for, despite some people beleving that the 9:25-6:00am franchiser has changed its national name, theres still an entirely seperate morning franchise which cannot in any way be claimed to be "ITV1". It is, however, part of ITV. But we could always just add GMTV to a franchise list. It doesn't affect the readability of the lists on, say, Lyngsat for Dish Network EPG entries (where every channel from 2 to 69 is issued to different people) [1]. --Kiand 16:16, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

   GMTV can be called part of ITV1. It is the national breakfast time franchise holder for ITV1. It's no different to UTV (for example) being the Northern Ireland franchise holder for ITV1: both are called by their own names virtually all the time, but the still make up part of a national channel: ITV1. - Green Tentacle 16:25, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

   The suggestion is intentionally generalising. It's meant to be accurate to a point, without going overboard. The list does not focus on ITV1, so adding too much detail will give it undue prominence. Issues such as those you both mentioned can be explained in the relevant articles. RobWill80 17:38, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

   While I agree that it's fine not to go overboard (hence the fact we are voting on which one name to use), I think we should avoid anything inaccurate or misleading, such as saying that STV is the on-air name in all Scotland (because it isn't in Southern Scotland). - Green Tentacle 22:07, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

   Or that it's called ITV1 in Central and Northern Scotland, and Northern Ireland, when it clearly isn't? theKeith 22:25, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

   The national name of the channel is ITV1. You're not trying to argue that it's called ITV in Central and Northern Scotland and Northern Ireland, are you? - Green Tentacle 17:20, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

   Okay. There's no reason why the Border region couldn't be mentioned. Maybe similar to this:

   3. ITV1 (England, Wales and the Scottish border only), STV (North and Central Scotland only) or UTV (Northern Ireland only)

   Let me know if you do or don't find this acceptable. RobWill80 01:28, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

   Personally, I think that we shouldn't list the franchise names because then you really need stuff like the Channel Islands, Isle of Man and GMTV (and then do you start listing BBC One Scotland etc?). I think that we should just list the national name of the channel (which seems to be what most people think here). The disagreement is over what that national name is. - Green Tentacle 17:20, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

2. How about "ITV1, STV or UTV" and put full detauls in a footnote (WP:FOOT). That way, the list stays clean, and nobody needs to get left out. --H2g2bob 17:43, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

   I think that's a good idea. It won't be necessary to add a footnote to the DTT article, as there would be enough space in the notes column for the three entries. Using your suggestion, there would also be room to include GMTV as a fourth entry (if others insist). RobWill80 20:04, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

   I think that would be the best compromise, something like the above suggestion in a simliar style as to how the Channel 4 listing is displayed in the Freeview article would be the best approach. Sonic 18:15, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

   I would be in favour of H2g2bob's idea, as a compromise.  <font="center" color="#FFFFFF"> theKeith  Talk!  14:01, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Discussion of the straw poll

• Discussion regarding the straw poll should go here.

Neither the DTG nor Freeview refer to it as ITV1 outside of where it is branded as ITV1 - they use the regional branding, whatever it may be. They also use ITV Plc's logo typing for the channel, this does not translate to it being the name they use for the channel. Similar situation covers Sky Digital, before anyone mentions it - ITV1 is used to refer to ITV only in regions where the ITV1 branding is in use. --Kiand 17:35, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

No-one's denying that regional names are used outside the ITV plc-owned franchises. They're just saying that the national name of the channel is ITV1. Freeview calls it ITV1 nationwide[2] and the DTG's fully-regionalised list of channels calls it ITV1 too[3]. - Green Tentacle 18:07, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

It may be worth noting that the discussion here will also have an impact on the Sky Digital article, which has the following:

• Channel 103 ITV1 (FTA) (TV3 Ireland in the Republic of Ireland, UTV in Northern Ireland, STV in Scotland)

Something to bear in mind, that's all... Sonic 15:17, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

I'd say that's fine. Listing STV and UTV as regional differences, similar to other channels in this and the Sky Digital article (e.g. Channel 4/S4C). Also similar to the suggested alternatives above. It doesn't go overboard. RobWill80 15:49, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Are there any ideas on how to proceed with this? The opinion seems to be split down the middle, and only three people (four - if you count Marbles333) would accept a compromise. RobWill80 13:23, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes we seem to be in deadlock. I would be in favour of the "ITV1, STV or UTV" suggested by H2g2bob, with a footnote, as a compromise. It lists all the names the channel uses across the network. A full explanation of this can be given in a footnote, although, we will spend probably another couple of months arguing over the wording of it.  <font="center" color="#FFFFFF"> theKeith  Talk!  13:59, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm in favour of that one as well. If we use it, I wouldn't mind how the footnote is worded. RobWill80 17:08, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

I could tolerate "ITV1, STV, UTV" (as that is the alphabetical order), because it doesn't (wrongly) claim the network is called ITV1 and lists the (21 hour a day) contracters. Listing GMTV would make it more accurate but they're not listed against ITV2 or CITV (Where they operate their 3:25 a day) or ITV3 (where they've sold their 3:25 back to ITV plc). --Kiand 02:03, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Kiand, I'm not trying to be difficult, but I honestly don't know who has called the network ITV1 during this poll (I've always known it as ITV). Though, I will ask you a hypothetical question. What would you have called LCN 6 if S2 and UTV2 were still broadcasting, along with ITV2 and GMTV2? You wanted to use the network's name for LCN 3, so would you have also called LCN 6 ITV? I know nothing about them, but if they were not/are not ITV Network channels, I'd ask what gives GMTV the right to their timeslot. Anyway, I really don't want to argue about this. We are making some progress at least. So, if we are using the suggestion, does anyone have any ideas on what to put in the footnote? RobWill80 22:08, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

During the time "ITV2: Regional service". Because the actual channel was called ITV2, and was regionalised. Whereas ITV is called ITV (and is regionalised). --Kiand 00:18, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the answer. I'd agree with the ITV2 part, but anything else I would say about the name of ITV1 would be more arguing. So, I'll leave it there. RobWill80 01:40, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

The difference is, though, that ITV2, S2 and UTV2 were actually different channels. ITV2 was controlled by Carlton/Granada, S2 by STV and UTV2 by UTV. With ITV1, it is different as the channel is controlled by ITV Network Ltd.

Incidentially, I could just about cope with calling ITV1 ITV1/STV/UTV as, in that context 'ITV1' is the regional name (as well as the national name of the channel). However, this solution would be far from ideal, as it doesn't include ITV1 Wales and GMTV and would be inconsistant with other channels that use regional branding (BBC One/BBC One Scotland/BBC One Wales/BBC One NI). I've always been against using regional branding and instead using the one national name. The poll was meant to decide whether that is ITV1 or ITV, but it's... er, not sorted out much so far... - Green Tentacle 17:08, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

I think H2g2bob's compromise seems the best way to go with this straw poll, at least we seem to have some consensus with the general view of the people. We'll use:

ITV1, STV or UTV

within the article and if anyone wants to add to the footnote, please do so. --Sonic 20:54, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Added the footnote to the best of my knowledge. I'm sure some of the contributors can improve on the wording of it. --Sonic 21:08, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Can't the footnote just say a line that there are regional variations between ITV1 regions, such as "ITV1 is the brand name for 12 of the 15 regional ITV Network franchises for England, Wales, southern Scotland, the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands. Each of these 12 franchises has a seperate brandname used prior to local programming, see ITV1. [sorry, forgot about signature! Marbles333 09:04, 3 July 2006 (UTC) ]

Yep, I can't personally see no problem in that, I'll incorporate it into the existing footnote. If anyone has any objections, please say so. --tgheretford (talk) 20:11, 2 July 2006 (UTC) - Formerly known as Sonic

Made the same changes in the Digital terrestrial television in the United Kingdom article as well. My only thought is that what about the Sky Digital article. Will that need the same footnote under ITV1/stv/UTV channel 103? --tgheretford (talk) 20:21, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't think this has been a contentious issue in that article. Even so, you may want to try asking on the talk page there. RobWill80 12:11, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Analogue switchoff

I have added some brief comments on analogue switchoff to the article, but feel these could be expanded further by someone with more knowledge than myself.

Television licence

I have clarified the reference to the need to purchase a TV licence to make it clear that this applies to all TV viewers in the UK, including cable and satellite.

Freeview in other countries

Would it be possible to mention and possibly link to Freeview equivilants in other European and international countries (if they exist). I think a link to say List of digital television deployments by country would be convenient, what do you think? - Canderra 18:36, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

EPG Changes

I've deleted the paragrah (EPG Changes) on Future Changes and could someone edit the Freeview Page for the new number RaptorX

New compression technology

It looks like (at least) the start of the first sentence of this paragraph has got lost. I can't work out what it should say; if no-one else is sure, I guess it needs tidying up!

SadGamerGeek 17:17, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Channel 3/4 Multiplex

Shouldn't this be described as being run by the ITV franchise holder for that region and Channel 4?

No, because it is run on a national level by a consortium called Digital 3 and 4, which is a corsortium made up of ITV Network Limit (which itself consists of all the ITV franchise holders (not just ITV plc)) and Channel 4. - Green Tentacle 12:45, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

High Definition TV

When you walk into an electical retailer in the UK, most high quality TV sets on display have an "HD ready" logo on them to signify that when High Definition TV (HDTV) comes along, the TV will be able to cope with it.

There are many unanswered questions regarding Freeview and HDTV. There is no information on the freeview.co.uk website.

Specifically, we should detail:

• Timescale for adoption of HDTV in the UK.
• Whether existing Freeview equipment will handle HDTV or whether everyone will have to go out and buy new set top boxes.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.135.85.120 (talk • contribs) 16:55, 30 October 2005

No timescale for Freeview to get HDTV but it cannot happen before the analogue switchoff, and no current boxes are able to handle it for a huge number of reasons, the first one being that they have no suitable outputs, followed by the fact that HDTV DTT is likely to use MPEG4 and not MPEG2. No point going into crystal ball mode, is clear from the current article that its not HD-ready. --Kiand 19:04, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

My prediction (going into crystal ball mode, because while there is no point, it can be fun) is that DTT will never go HD in the UK. Bandwitdh is a scarce resource on DTT. An HD stream will take up the bandwidth that could be used for maybe 4 SD streams. I can not think of a way that a single HD channel could make the same revenue as 4 SD channels. On cable and satellite, bandwidth is not the issue it is on DTT, so far easier to add HD channels, without having to remove a number of SD channels. MrWeeble Talk Brit tv 21:43, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

With the (theorethical but snowballs chance in hell) of 9 muxes after switchoff, plus the use of AVC, you could get HDTV on a 2 for 1 basis. But the boxes would cost a lot more. The BBC -are- intending to go HD on BBC 1 on DTT after switchoff, but thats because they'll probably be able to get another mux. The other 4 potential extra ones are unlikely to happen :/ --Kiand 21:58, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

As I understand it MPEG4 H264, DivX, and WMV HD all give superb HD in around 4Mb/s bandwidth. BBC2 currently used 5Mb/s babndwidth, with dubious quality. So the obvious way forward is new boxes with new HD channels for those who want HD. The fact that the HD channels make more effective use of bandwidth will help counter the pressure to replace them (with a single SD channel viewable on old boxes). One day, presumably, SD channels can be phased out and replaced one for one with HD, forcing everyone to buy new boxes. It happened before with 405 line! --Lindosland 13:58, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

4Mbits doesn't provide watchable quality HD, in anything. It provides quite decent quality SD, however. --Kiand 16:13, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Future Changes

Added a new paragraph here with information obtained from OFCOM, Digital Spy, and many other sources.

The EPG/PVR concept

I've added quite a bit on this, whilst remaining aware that some may consider this off-topic or possibly verging on POV. However, the ideas I have tried to put over are so important to the potential customer who may use this page before buying, and so linked to the fate of the planet, through energy wastage, that I think they merit a place here. --Lindosland 15:06, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

I really don't think (m)any people use the Wikipedia for product advice, and I don't think that content is useful - or even accurate - IDTV's use less power than a TV + a STB. I've already removed that inaccuracy. --Kiand 15:07, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

I think that's a bit harsh. Many people are confused by these things. Its not 'product' advice I was adding, but 'new technology and what it can do and where it fails', and as such I think it's valid. Where else can you get a good overview of whats going on in technology? Certainly not from sales sites, and I never found magazines and reviews very helpful, because they report on what is available, largely from a price perspective, rather than what is possible and what's going wrong. --Lindosland 14:07, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Oh, and how can you say simply that "IDT's use less power than a TV + STB". There's no fundamental reason for this to be true, assuming you could buy the TV less all tuners, and unless of course the STB is offering more in the way of drives, display or something, which is a choice. If you find it to be true in practice then it has to be because of not comparing like with like, or because of wasteful design. An STB allows for future improvement in power saving, which is something that may yet be enforced as everyone knows standby power wastes far too much currently. --Lindosland 14:18, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Namely because an IDT doesn't use any more power than an analogue TV and an STB is always going to use some power. Additionally, no matter how "helpful" it may be, you don't go to an encyclopedia to get a POV explanation of a consumer technology. It has absolutely no place here. --Kiand 15:47, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

BBC Two English Regions

Are you sure that BBC Two, English regional variations are available. I think it is only the three Nations that have variations on DTT. Keith 15:20, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Just subscribed to the London and the North regional variations of the channel using Digiguide to get listings. While it gives seperate regional choices, I haven't actually found any difference in programming between the two (looked forward for about 2 weeks from today) MrWeeble Talk Brit tv 15:59, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Sky doesn't have regional variations for BBC 2, which indicates that if there are any, they're not major. They may have existed once. Morwen - Talk 11:13, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

There are a few minor variations on BBC TWO (Analogue) in England - for example the Super League show in the BBC ONE North region - also during the Commonwelth games BBC TWO showed regional news programmes such as BBC East Midlands Today - however BBC TWO Digital is the same thoughout England. Kev 20:05, 26 March 2006 (UTC+1)

BBC2's English variations have been scrapped to save money for the English regions (where the changes are essentially the news programmes, a politics show and a regional current affairs job - the latter two have both been moved to BBC1 in revent years. Breakfast News was moved to BBC2 during the Commonwealth Games which caused them to have to display a caption whenever they cut to the regions. I believe the only exception to this is Birmingham as Pebble Mill used to be the emergency backup region. I don't think this is still the case since the move to the Mailbox however.

BBC Two regions in England only work on Analogue (and even then, not all regions are able to opt out on BBC2 - Hull has to take Leeds programming). That's why there are very rarely any regional variations on BBC Two in England. The Super League Show has now moved to BBC One so digital viewers can see it. Lee Stanley 15:19, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

301, 302 and 303

I have just reverting a removal by User:Green Tentacle of reference to Channels 301-303 on the basis that "as they aren't proper channels: they're part of interactive services (301 and 302 often work together and only if you've pressed red and 303 only ever works through red)". Unfortunately I can still dial all 3 channels on my remote and up they come. Can anyone add to this one way or t'other ? Frelke 20:59, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, it's quite simple: they're not proper channels. 301 and 302 are used for interactive services, accessible by pressing the red button. Though they can be watched by typing in the channel numbers, they are not designed to be watched this way. For example, interactive games often work by switching the viewer between these two channels depending on an option the viewer chooses. 303 contains two screens for BBC News (accessible by pressing red on most BBC channels) and one for BBC Parliament. No one can ever watch anything by directly going to 303 - they will see a blank screen. - Green Tentacle 23:05, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

So when you say "they're not proper channels" what exactly do you mean? Why should I watch channels in the way they are designed to be watched, when in fact I can do it a different way, a way that suits me more. 301/2/3 are proper channels. Just cause you don't want to watch them the way I watch doesn't mean your way is right ands mine is wrong.

In summary, we agree that the channels exist. So why not leave them on the list?Frelke 23:44, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

You could also directly tune your Freeview box into the two BBC engineering channels. Shall we put them on the list too? What about 4TVInteractive? Or any of the Top Up TV channels? Just because it appears on the EPG does not make it part of Freeview. They are certainly not listed on the Freeview website.

Furthermore, as I said in my previous post, you can certainly never watch anything by typing in 303. It will always show a blank screen, despite the fact it is broadcasting video, three different audio streams and MHEG for Ceebies 24-hours-a-day. - Green Tentacle 17:49, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

This topic raises an interesting question. If LCNs 301-303 do not exist as "proper channels" then, for BARB purposes, what channels are viewers watching when tuned to these LCNs? A specific current example is the Winter Olympics coverage. When a viewer is watching an interactive Winter Olympics stream, does BARB consider them to be watching BBC2, BBCi or something else? IP 21:23, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Freeview and non-Freeview Channels

Freview is a consortium to market FTA DTT channels. IMHO therefore the concept of Freeview FTA Channels and non-Freeview FTA channels has been always been a bit of a myth. Now that ITV and C4 are members of the Freeview consortium and ITV own SDN, the only channel that can arguably be described as a non-Freeview channel is Five.

Vote

Should the channel list include 301, 302, 303, other channels or Top-Up TV channels. Below are three questions just put your name under the question you feel is right. This will last from 20 February - 20 March 2006 (1 Month). British TV

Include All Channels

• British TV

Don't Include The Channels

• No, because they're either not "channels" or not free; this issue has already been thrashed out a few times, and theres no concensus to put them on the list, at all. --Kiand 18:33, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

• No, especially towards placing Top Up TV channels in the list. It would be incorrect to say that Top Up TV channels are on the "Freeview platform". Freeview and Top Up TV operate on the DTT platform. Also, the BBCi video streams (301, 302, 303) are not mentioned on Freeview's website, but are mentioned on the DTG's website as DTT channels/services. There is a separate article about UK DTT, located here. RobWill80 20:22, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

• No, strange as it might seem, and for the same initial reason as RobWill80. Top Up TV is NOT Freeview. But 301, 302, 303 ARE :-) Frelke 21:49, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

• As has been discussed before, the BBC streams on LCNs 301-303 are not "channels" and are designed to be accessed via the red button on BBC services, and not by directly keying 301, 302 or 303. The Freeview list of channels is therefore an inappropriate place to list them as separate channels. It would perhaps be appropriate to mention 301 and 302 in the BBCi article, if this were better structured with separate discussion of the BBCi services on each platform. The appropriate place to mention the News Multiscreen on 303 is the BBC News article. Likewise for the BBC Parliament screen on 303 in the BBC Parliament article. It is appropriate to mention 301-303 on the DTT article; the list here is an exhaustive list of all LCNs on the DTT platform, whereas the list in the Freeview article should be one of the "channels" broadly considered to be part of "Freeview". Top Up TV channels do not belong on the Freeview list. It is as bizarre as arguing that Freeview channels belong on the Top Up TV list. Let's stick broadly to what the Freeview website lists – ie porn channels, Setanta et al do not belong here either. Engineering channels for OTA software updates and EPGs are definitely not "channels" nor are they assigned LCNs. They may warrant mention under general discussion of digital television but definitely do not belong on any lists. Slightly off-topic, as Freeview seems little more than a marketing tool for free DTT, it is all but pointless to argue whether all free DTT channels are part of Freeview. IP 22:24, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

As has been discussed before... Surely as a user with records going back less than a week you would not really be in a position to recount what has been discussed before. Unless of course you have another persona that was engaged in any previous discussions. Can you perhaps provide a link to these previous discussions Frelke 22:38, 20 February 2006 (UTC)?

With regard to that comment, scroll up the page a few lines and recall the conversation that you, not I, were involved in. Judging from what was said, there is some debate as to whether saying 301-303 are not channels is fact or POV. I favour the former. IP 22:46, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

• Same reasons as everyone else: Top Up TV is not part of Freeview and 300, 301, 302 and 303 are not proper channels. - Green Tentacle 23:33, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

New Freeview deployment figures

Figures need updating: Google news results Bigpinkthing 14:20, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Dropping of FTA Requirement -Errors and Scaremongering

1. Technically, all that is happened is that Ofcom has said that on a Mux operators request it will lift the FTA only requirement. It isn't clear that any mux operator will do this.

2. I have not seen anywhere where Ofcom said it would fastrack anything.

3. As Ofcom has pointed out channels are unlikely to convert in short-term. I dont doubt more pay-tv channels may appear but this is different. Even then, IMHO it will probably in the down-time of others. As the BBC pointed out, TUTV probably cant afford the going rate for DTT slots.

4. There are no pay channels on Freeview. There are more than 11 on DTT.

5. The main pay tv services ALL broadcast on Mux A. Only Setanta which has is about 2hours per week and is PPV broadcasts on a different Mux (Mux 2). Its not clear whether this will continue beyond the end of the present football season as the contract with ITV was signed when the space was used for the half-hearted ITV News Channel.

Pit-yacker 16:13, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

As a second point I have changed the sentence that said 9 of the 12 respondants were in favour of more pay tv. Saying this is conjecture. The truth is that 9 out of 12 where in favour of removing the regulation. Being in favour of removing regulation and being in favour of more pay-tv are subtly different. AFAICT they didnt state the motives.

For example, Sky wants to remove as much regulation of TV as possible. In that context it could be that said that Sky are using this as a way of slowly chipping away at regulation rather than being in support of pay-tv on DTT per se. Equally other broadcasters may be seen as having other motives. e.g. The BBC attached a string of conditions (which Ofcom ignored). IMHO, another possibility for the BBC being that allowing pay-tv onto the existing muxes means it is more likely Ofcom will award licences for additional muxes to existing broadcasters for HD rather than additional SD pay services (so that pay-tv can get a viable place on the platform).

Pit-yacker 18:17, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

SmileTV: A Freeview channel?

SmileTV is available on all DTT boxes free of charge, but should this channel be listed in the Freeview article? As far as I am aware, SmileTV is not being advertised as part of the Freeview line-up, and it is mentioned on Top Up TV's front page. My recommendation is that the channel should be removed from this article, and placed in the article on Top Up TV, with a few words regarding its status. Does anyone have any thoughts on the matter? RobWill80 19:56, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, the rule has always been that all free-to-air channels are listed, which means it should be included. There used to be a note at the top of the channel list to say this. SmileTV might be related to Top Up TV, but it is not part of the Top Up TV service (Teachers' TV exists in a similiar situation). Therefore it should stay here. - Green Tentacle 18:40, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Okay, that's fair enough. I was unsure of what we define as "Freeview channels" in this article, because I would've doubted that I would see it mentioned on Freeview's website or other publicity material (given the connection to Top Up TV). Anyway, thanks for clearing that up. RobWill80 19:28, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

I've just spotted that it is listed on this official channel line up. - Green Tentacle 14:40, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm surprised to see it listed there. Good find. RobWill80 16:25, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

ITV1

I've left this alone for a while now, but the latest incarnation of the ITV1 listing had a number of innaccuracies, so I've decided to correct it. The national name of ITV1 is 'ITV1' and therefore it should be listed as such. The channel was previously named 'ITV'. In 2001, ITV Network Ltd (a company made up of all the ITV franchise holders) took the decision to rename the entire channel ITV1 (the decision was not, as some people would have you believe, taken by ITV plc, who did not even exist then)[4]. This made absolutely no difference to the on-air names because all of the different franchises used their own regional names on air. In 2002, the franchises owned by Carlton and Granada changed their own-air identities to simply ITV1 (or 'ITV1 Wales' for HTV Wales).

Some people would have you believe that ITV1 is just a brand name used by the ITV plc-owned stations - this is not the case, as the whole channel was renamed ITV1 (in a decision agreed upon by all the ITV companies) a whole year before the rebranding took place. The name is used by all the ITV companies to refer to the channel nationally (see, for example, page 37 of this report by Scottish Television[5]).

The channel's national name is ITV1 and so should be listed as such on the channel list. Users can follow the link for information on the regional names. - Green Tentacle 15:29, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I've followed the latter link, I get a 404. In what way did the name change manifest itself in 2001, then, other than news stories? Note that the news story says that it is "set to" happen, not that it in fact already had. The decision could have been taken but never implemented, for example. Morwen - Talk 19:15, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

That link does appear to be 404ing now. It was definitely there when I originally posted it in April. The ITV1 name was definitely implemented almost immediately and was used in a number of promos and the like. This page from TV Ark includes a video of a promo stating that ITV is now called ITV1 (dated August 2001, one month after the announcement). The same page notes that the rebranding of Carlton and Granada-owned regions to ITV1 did not happen until October 2002. - Green Tentacle 19:50, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Found that STV report. It's now here; page 37 is the relevant part. - Green Tentacle 01:22, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Did that promo run in Scotland/Northern Ireland/Channel Islands, or just on the Carlton/Granada stations? Morwen - Talk 11:17, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

I have absolutely no idea. - Green Tentacle 13:45, 3 June 2006 (UTC)