Talk:French Army in World War I

Plagiarism on a grand scale

It is incredible that the lion's share of the content on this old article has been plagiarised from one website about the First World War, namely

https://www.firstworldwar.com/index.htm

As with a lot of old wiki articles, it is there in plain sight. It seems like nobody seems to have checked against the sources. Keith H99 (talk) 18:32, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

Can you elaborate? Like provide an exact webpage, instead of the home page? ARandomName123 (talk)^{Ping me!} 18:24, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

@Keith H99: As Earwig shows that any copied content is limited to proper nouns, and it's been over two weeks since my request for clarification, I've removed the tag. I initially thought there was some close paraphrasing instead, but that part of the Wikipedia article predated the website. See: French Army in World War I - Wikipedia (9.Aug) and First World War.com - Battles - The First Battle of Albert, 1914 (22.Aug) ARandomName123 (talk)^{Ping me!} 21:40, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

@ARandomName123 I was only made aware of your comment today. Let's look at Battle of the Frontiers

https://www.firstworldwar.com/battles/frontiers.htm

Duffy

The Battle of the Frontiers comprised five offensives launched under French Commander-in-Chief Joseph Joffre and German Chief of Staff Helmuth von Moltke's initiative during the first month of the war, August 1914.

The battles - at Mulhouse, Lorraine, the Ardennes, Charleroi and Mons - were launched more or less simultaneously, and marked the collision of both French and German invasion plans (Plan XVII and the Schlieffen Plan, respectively), each battle impacting the course of others.

The article

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Army_in_World_War_I#Battle_of_the_Frontiers

The Battle of the Frontiers consisted of five offensives, commanded and planned by French Commander-in-Chief Joseph Joffre and German Chief-of-Staff Helmuth von Moltke. It was fought in August 1914.

These five offensives, Mulhouse, Lorraine, Ardennes, Charleroi, and Mons, were launched almost simultaneously. They were the result of the French Plan XVII and the German plans colliding.

The article is huge chunks of content from Duffy's website cobbled together. Keith H99 (talk) 07:49, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

@Keith H99: After a bit more digging, I believe you're right. I had initially thought the date at the bottom of the webpage was the creation date, but taking a look at archive.org shows the website was showing this content way back in 2001. Looks more like close paraphrasing, but it's still concerning how long this has stayed up, and the uncertain reliability of the website. Are you aware of any other articles that may also have this problem? ARandomName123 (talk)^{Ping me!} 15:36, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

The base article, written by @Mynameinc (no longer active), pretty much exclusively cites this source, so it's going to be a pain to cleanup. ARandomName123 (talk)^{Ping me!} 15:41, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

Yes, unfortunately, when the article was created, it mirrored what was on Duffy's site.

I have come across two wiki articles just like this, about 15+ years old. For years, nobody has questioned what was created, back in those wild west days. For the two other articles I mentioned, they had to be rewritten, with recourse to a variety of reliable sources, rather than the wholesale plagiarising of another website. Keith H99 (talk) 15:52, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

It's great that those two articles have been rewritten. I think the best course of action is to also rewrite this one, especially with better sources, but that's going to take awhile. A few parts may be fine, so those could be kept. Thoughts? ARandomName123 (talk)^{Ping me!} 16:22, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

@ARandomName123 I heartily concur. Earlier this year I did start to transplant content from elsewhere, with sources, in order that the plagiarised content from the Duffy website was taken out, but it will take time. At some point in the future, this will be done, but until it is completed, the paraphrasing warning tag should stay there. Keith H99 (talk) 17:33, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

I'll try to get my hands on a few books, but I won't be able to make any substantive edits until around winter break. I'll make a post on the military history wikiproject to see if we can get a few other editors to help out. ARandomName123 (talk)^{Ping me!} 18:51, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

Regarding the elements that require editing, they are:

Commanders in Chief  Done

Western Front

Battle of the Frontiers

Race to the Sea

Chemical weapons and gas  Done

A lot of the editing that was needed has already been done elsewhere in the article. Keith H99 (talk) 14:55, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

@Keith H99: I've rewritten the "Joseph Joffre" section of Commanders in Chief, using Paths of glory: the French Army 1914-18 as the source (thanks archive.org). A second set of eyes would be appreciated, so feel free to double check my work, and make sure the paraphrase is removed. I'm also not too clear about the exact date of his fall, so if you are able to clarify there, that would be great. Thanks! ARandomName123 (talk)^{Ping me!} 21:20, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for letting me know. Keith H99 (talk) 16:07, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Subcategory of "Chemical weapons and gas" in the article has been edited. Keith H99 (talk) 15:16, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

Great, thanks. I should be able to finish Commanders in Chief by the end of the day today. If you don't mind, I'm going to put a check next to your comment listing the sections for the completed ones. ARandomName123 (talk)^{Ping me!} 15:24, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

Commanders in Chief is completed. ARandomName123 (talk)^{Ping me!} 21:11, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

A good idea, thanks for your hard work recently with this article. Keith H99 (talk) 15:10, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

I have had a go at tidying this up. The list of battles was not chronological, so I have tried to address that. I would say that the 1914 section is toxic, and plagiarism from the Duffy website needs to be addressed there. Keith H99 (talk) 13:47, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

@ARandomName123 in answer to your statement:

I'm guessing you mean "The Battle of the Frontiers: Ardennes 1914"

The article was a f***ing mess. Western Front covered 1914 to 1916, and then it started all over again with Battle of the Frontiers and other engagements from 1914 onwards. Given this lack of chronological order, it needed to be given year headers, and for the text to be moved so it fell under the correct year. The plagiarism issue is unresolved for 1914. Keith H99 (talk) 16:36, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

@Keith H99: I think you meant to ping @ActivelyDisinterested, who left that statement in their edit summary.

Thanks for cleaning some of it up; I'd lost interest in doing so, but I'll get back into it in the coming days. ARandomName123 (talk)^{Ping me!} 17:51, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

No idea what the rest of this discussion is about, but someone added "Zuber 2002" as a short form reference to the article. As that is undefined it caused a no target error, see Category:Harv and Sfn no-target errors and the documentation for {{sfn}} templates. As "Zuber 2009" - 'The Battle of the Frontiers: Ardennes 1914' is defined in the article I assume this was either typo or a different print of the same work. If it's not a full cite will need to be provided, as {{sfn}} templates are only hyperlinks not valid references on their own.
No opinion on whatever else is going on. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 18:06, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

My apologies for tagging the wrong person, and misinterpreting. Keith H99 (talk) 21:53, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

The text for 1914 is very bland and basic, providing an overview of battles that took place. There is no context as to the French involvement, generally. I have been able to make some tweaks, but you can't polish a turd, and a root-and-branch replacement of the generic guff that is in place for 1914 is what is called for. Keith H99 (talk) 21:38, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

The <<tarte>> headdress

The floppy beret appears to have been issued on a widespread basis from July 1915, in horizon blue, but to have fallen out of favour very quickly. There was chagrin on the part of the Chasseurs Alpins, Régiments d'Infanterie Alpins and mountain gunners, who wore a darker version, and considered the headdress to be their preserve. Continued use of this garment by des autres was limited to Indochinese, and to tankers of the Artillerie Spéciale. Keith H99 (talk) 21:38, 20 November 2023 (UTC)