Talk:Fritz Beckhardt

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RESTORING JEWISH ACES

One of the Nazis' many offenses against the Jews was a concerted attempt to deny that German Jews served honorably and often bravely in the military of the German Empire in World War I. The names of German Jewish heroes were purged from official records. For an insight into this, you might read http://people.sinclair.edu/thomasmartin/knights/index2.htm. One specific example I would like to cite is Fritz Beckhardt. He is listed in the Jewish knights website above, and mentioned in the forum of www.http://theaerodrome.com. I have him listed with a provisional victory total of 17, and am still researching him. In the interests of NPOV, completeness, fairness, and accuracy, I feel it is incumbent upon us to restore these names to their rightful place in this history project. If anyone has any useful references, information, thoughts, tips, or hints, please post them here. Georgejdorner (talk) 23:23, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Possible improvements

I have just assessed this article for the Military History project and feel that it could be improved by addressing the following issues:

• Referencing: for a successful B class review, the article requires at least one in-line citation per paragraph (more if multiple sources were used for that paragraph). Additionally, any points that might be challenged or seem controversial should also have an in-line citation to help with the verification process;
• Coverage: the article could be expanded to discuss the subject's military career in more detail, for instance some of the main actions that the subject was involved in;
• Structure: where possible it is best to avoid short one or two sentence paragraphs. Also the article might be improved by adding See also and External links sections;
• Supporting materials: the article would be improved by the addition of a photograph or image, if one could be obtained without breaching copyright.
• Citations: you don't necessarily have to quote the full reference each time in an in-line citation, this can be included in the References section, but in the Notes section you can probably get away with Author, Date and page number, e.g. Rigg 2002, p. 73. Also, where an in line citation is the same as a previous one, they can be consolidated using the WP:NAMEDREFS system.

Just a few ideas. If you would like more in-depth comments, please consider adding this article to the discussion on WP:MHPR. Also, if you would like to seek re-assessment in the future, please go to WP:MHA. These comments are by no means meant to be a criticism of the work already undertaken, they are intended to provide some advice on how the article might be developed. Hope this helps. AustralianRupert (talk) 15:52, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

I have many detailled information about Fritz Beckhardt as he is my grandfather and I am writing a book about him. I added some news to this site. In the german Wikipedia my signature is "Intendant" but this signature is not possible in the english version so there will be only this 217.232.47.116 (talk) 11:05, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

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I failed to get the English translation of Jewish Flyers in the World War (by Felix A. Theilhaber) via interlibrary loan. I understand it has info on Beckhardt. If anyone can get it, it would probably add a lot to this article. If you read German, the original is entitled Judische Flieger im Weltkreig.Georgejdorner (talk) 02:11, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

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Was he a fighter ace?

Unlike other Jewish or more or less Jewish pilots like Wilhelm Frankl, Willy Rosenstein and Paul Billik, Fritz Beckhardt as such doesn't appear on the list of German fighter aces on "http://www.theaerodrome.com/aces". Are you sure he shot down 17 allied warplanes? There's a certain Burckhardt credited with 5 air victories, but he died in 1962, like Beckhardt. The same individual? This Burkhardt seems to have flown on the Italian front.

"http://www.theaerodrome.com/aces/germany/burckhardt.php"

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The Nazis were pretty thorough at exterminating Beckhardt's records because he was a thorn in their sides; therefore he does not appear on the aerodrome list. However, those who were literally his worst enemies conceded that he had scored 17 victories during World War I.

Coincidentally, Karl-Fredrick Burckhardt and Fritz Beckhardt were born and died in the same years. However, their birth dates and death dates are different. In short, they are not the same man.

I respect the aerodrome site, and use it frequently. It is a focal point for World War I aviation historians, including some who write for Cross and Cockade and Osprey Press. It is an excellent site; I consider it a reliable source; however, it is not infallible.

Georgejdorner (talk) 02:17, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

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I don't put into question Fritz's gallantry -his war decorations are proof to it-, but the matter of his air victories remains far from clear. Some people say he achieved one confirmed and another unconfirmed victories, but on the other hand there are passing references to Fritz shooting down 2 allied warplanes on the same mission or having scored 10 air victories at a given moment.

"http://aces.safarikovi.org/victories/germany-ww1-jewish.html"

"http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/people/18651-fritz-beckhardt-6.html" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 11:44, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

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Indeed, you are correct when you state Beckhardt's aerial victories haven't been detailed as they have been for almost everyone in http://www.theaerodrome.com/aces/. However, there is ample evidence, both direct and circumstantial, of his acedom.

The http://aces.safarikovi.org/victories/germany-ww1-jewish.html reference was not one I had seen before. However, the other reference, http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/people/18651-fritz-beckhardt-6.html is one of my citations for the article, and supports my findings.

The decorations you refer are also strong support for his acedom. The German award system was keyed toward longevity and "productivity". The classic example is the Pour le Merite, which was awarded for a certain number of aerial victories. That number slid upwards throughout the war, as aerial victories became more common. Typically, a top German ace would have won, in order, the Iron Cross, the Royal House Order of Hohenzollern, and the Pour le Merite; corollary decorations might include various awards from his home kingdom, or a Wound Badge for suffering wounds in action.

Given the fact that 20 victories equated a PlM for most of the war, Beckhardt's lack of an award infers that he did not reach that total. The Hohenzollern he was awarded, however, is consonant with an ace credited with roughly ten to twenty victories.

However, the strongest evidence of Beckhardt's acedom is this. The SS, whose primary purpose was the extermination of Jewry, credited Beckhardt with seventeen victories. Why would they do that unless it was an inescapable truth?

Georgejdorner (talk) 21:28, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

I've been reflecting upon Beckhardt and my guess is that aces.safarikovik's "1" might well be a misreading of 10, the score Ben Levandowski seems to have credited Beckhardt with. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 10:59, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

From Rhineland-Palatinate ?

Rheinhessen (Rhenish Hesse) belongs to Rhineland-Palatinate (Rheinland-Pfalz) , at least nowadays.

P.S._I've changed Badamar into Hadamar. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 11:08, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Photo found

A photo misidentified as Hermann Gilly is available at http://www.flickr.com/photos/sdasmarchives/8091917878/in/photostream/

Georgejdorner (talk) 18:25, 19 April 2013 (UTC)