Talk:Garlin Murl Conner

Awards

Conner also had the Good Conduct Medal. I can see it on his blouse in one the the photos. WP:OR, of course.--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 21:34, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
There are several accounts on the Internet that say he received four Bronze Stars, yet nothing confirming or mentioned on his Wiki page. --THE FOUNDERS INTENT ^PRAISE 18:00, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

History of Third Infantry Division

I deleted the last use of this reference, which had disappeared from Google Books, and the text it supported. I was uncertain of the correctness of the information about his family. Conner's page on ancestry.com shows that his mother was born in 1893. It's very unlikely that she had a son who fought in World War I.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Gaarmyvet (talk • contribs) 19:23 21 March 2014

Correct medal count

I understand this information will go against many sources, but I believe it to be true. I am bringing it to the talk page for discussion first because I know it is controversial. According to official records, Lt Conner was awarded 1 Bronze Star Medal, not 4. He received 3 Purple Hearts not 7. One of my sources is this article written by historian Hugh Ridenour. This article is unique because Mr Ridenour appears to be the only writer who actually took the time to view Conner’s Army papers held by his family. Unfortunately, you can only access this through the Muse database, but many libraries and Universities subscribe to this service.

• Bronze Star Medal

Many earlier stories, including the various bills introduced into Congress, have claimed just 1 Bronze Star for Lt Conner. It is only recently that the count has suddenly and mysteriously turned into 4. Photos of Conner show him with just one. Donald Taggart's classic reference book, History of the Third Division in WWII shows zero Bronze Stars for Conner. There is mention of only one Bronze Star in my reference article.

“Although no official citation is available to provide authentication, Conner’s Army separation papers indicate that he won the Bronze Star.” -Ridenour, page 81

Note that it's "the Bronze Star" singular, not 4. Lt Conner may also be eligible for an additional medal as a result of receiving the Combat Infantryman’s Badge. So, that's 1 BSM for sure, maybe 2, but not 4.

• Purple Heart

Let's start with Lt Conner's grave marker. Next, my reference article states:

“Conner officially received 3 purple hearts, but indications are that he received seven wounds.” --Ridenour, page 79

The key word here is “officially”. There are rules for awarding a PH. A soldier must be wounded in conflict with an enemy, he must seek medical treatment and there must be a record of that treatment. It is possible Conner was injured but refused the medal because he felt his wounds were not serious enough. This was not uncommon. Many honorable men refused the medal for that very reason. Perhaps he did not seek medical treatment at all. We don’t know why, but for whatever reason, he does not have these additional medals. If the family can provide medical proof, the Army might add the awards to his record, but as far as I know, they have not done this. So, this means he has 3 Purple Hearts.

• Conclusion

I doubt this can be used as a reference because it isn’t published and I personally cannot be a source, but just for the record, I have a copy of Conner's 1999 Army Board of Corrections report which also confirms 1 BSM and 3 PHs.

I would suggest correcting these medals on the main page with footnotes to explain the issues involved. I am certainly open to listening to other opinions and seeing any additional evidence that anyone might have. Roam41 (talk) 20:07, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

I agree with almost all of the above. Conner would not necessarily get a medal for receiving the Combat Infantryman’s Badge; it's an award in itself. The Ridenour article IS published; it's just behind a membership/pay wall. This picture provides a lead on what awards Conner had.--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 03:13, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

I think we're looking at:

CIB

something hidden (Distinguished Service Cross?), Silver Star with three OLC, Bronze Star

Purple Heart, Good Conduct Medal, American Defense Service Medal, European-African-Middle Eastern Campaign Medal with an indeterminate number of devices, one of which should be an arrowhead

I'm dropping a note at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history#Sanity check.

--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 18:06, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for responding. I'm sorry I didn't make my post clearer. I was only referring to my personal copy of the Army Board report as probably not being usable as a source. The Ridenour article is a perfectly fine reference because it was published in the Kentucky Historical Society Register. As for the Bronze Star, the regulations were changed in 1947 which made every WWII soldier with the CIB eligible for a retroactive award of the BSM (for merit not valor). See the WP entry or the army manual. It wasn't automatic. It was necessary for a soldier or his next of kin to formally apply and be approved for it. Since we have no way of knowing if Conner's family has ever done this, I think we need to stick to 1 BSM per the Ridenour article. Obviously, if more proof emerges we can change the WP page, but right now I think we can only go with what we can source accurately. Roam41 (talk) 18:55, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

And this is how we get to the bottom of things. Good point about the Bronze Star post-war. I think Conner is wearing it during his presentation of his DSC; that suggests to me that it was awarded during the war, independent of the CIB. Does the board report have any restrictive markings on it? You may not want to answer that! If it doesn't, I think it's a U.S. Government document that you and I paid for. I dropped a note on the Wikisource help page about uploading such things.--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 19:55, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

Yes, he received the DSC on February 10, 1945, so it was during the war. He returned to the USA on March 4, 1945. The Board report does not have any restrictions stamped on it, but it is not published anywhere and I can't link to it. WP would just have to take my word for it and that's against the rules, as it should be. Maybe there's a way, but I would want to be very careful not to go against the guidelines. Roam41 (talk) 01:24, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

Roam41, Your statement "He returned to the USA on March 4, 1945" is a great nugget in that it means we could definitively rule out any campaign participation credit for Conner for the 7th Infantry Regiment's tenth and final campaign in WWII: Central Europe from 22 March-11 May 45. That said, the possibility still remains that Conner's campaign credit count total could rise to nine. Regards, Shade Ruff (talk) 13:35, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

Roam41 and Jim,

Having filed one myself decades ago, I would think paperwork associated with an Army Board for the Correction of Military Records (ABCMR) filing should/could be an acceptable official source - especially if the ABCMR acted/ruled on it. Absent any other solid "official" documentation, it may be the best sourcing vis-à-vis the BSM and PH questions. Roam41, can you tell if the ABCMR paperwork is simply the original application made on Conner's behalf or do you also see any indication of ABCMR action on it? I say this because I would think the ABCMR would have confirmed any claims to decorations - for our purposes the BSM and PH with 2OLC - made on the original application.

As for an automatic BSM associated with being awarded the CIB, this was a post-war development. My sense is the original intent was to recognize those infantrymen who had been awarded the CIB, but had not necessarily been awarded any combat-related decorations during their wartime service. These post-war BSM awards were for meritorious service/achievement and not for heroism. I can't say I'm familiar with many vets who've claimed the BSM under this provision who were already otherwise decorated for their wartime service. See this pertinent excerpt from AR 600-8-22 dated 25 June 2015:

"f. The BSM may be awarded for meritorious achievement or meritorious service according to the following: (1) Awards may be made to recognize single acts of merit or meritorious service. The lesser degree than that required for the award of the LM must nevertheless have been meritorious and accomplished with distinction. (2) Award may be made to each Servicemember of the Army who, after 6 December 1941, has been cited in orders or awarded a certificate for exemplary conduct in ground combat against an armed enemy between 7 December 1941 and 2 September 1945, inclusive, or whose meritorious achievement has been otherwise confirmed by documents executed prior to 1 July 1947. For this purpose, an award of the CIB or CMB is considered as a citation in orders. Award of the BSM from these documents will not negate the original award or the CIB or CMB. Documents executed since 4 August 1944 in connection with recommendations for the award of decorations of higher degree than the BSM will not be used as the basis for an award under this paragraph."

A literal read of the above suggests 1st Lt. Conner would be entitled to an additional BSM because he was awarded the CIB. Given his record of combat-related decorations received during the war, however, such an award would seem superfluous at best. As for how his one BSM became four, it may be as simple as people confusing/jumbling his four Silver Stars with his BSM count. For me, the real question is whether his BSM was for heroic achievement since this carried with it the associated "V" device.Regards, Shade Ruff (talk) 22:55, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

Roam41, Is there anything in his ABCMR file that indicates what device is affixed to his French Croix de Guerre e.g., bronze, silver or gilt star or bronze palm? Regards, Shade Ruff (talk) 23:32, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

Hi Shade Ruff, I took the liberty of making the above posts a little easier to work with by moving your signature up. I hope this is OK. The ABCMR report does not mention the Croix de Guerre at all. In fact, I'm a little unsure about whether he actually received this medal as an individual. I think he did, but I'm not positive. There are several reports saying he was awarded the Croix on June 20, 1945. He would have been back in the USA for several months by then, so I have a tendency to believe he was honored in some kind of a ceremony, but I can't find any information about it. There's no mention of it in the Ridenour article other than a quote from a 1945 letter written by Conner's CO saying he had put the Lt "in for the French Medal". I have not seen a photo of him wearing the ribbon or medal. Roam41 (talk) 02:17, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

Correct medal count-Oct 2015 board report

I have stalled a while to see if anyone else wanted to weigh in on the medal count question before changing anything. While waiting, I have found a newly posted document and this time it's publicly available and linkable. It is the ABCMR (Army Board for Correction of Military Records) report dated October 22, 2015. This confirms the medal count as discussed above, with 1 BSM and 3 PHs. This paper is full of information about Lt Conner. The firm conclusion of the report is that Lt Conner should NOT receive the Medal of Honor, as there is not enough evidence to support it. However, the 3 member board went against this recommendation in November 2015 and moved the case forward. There is one issue, the document only uses initials, not full names due to privacy purposes. It is quite obviously Conner's report, though. Jim, do you think there would be any problem using this as a source because of the initials? There is such detail included, there's no doubt it's Conner's. Roam41 (talk) 21:47, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

Good work. I was looking for something like this. BTW, Wikipedia has access to Project MUSE, where that article is available. I'm waiting for my user ID. Definiterly go ahead and change the article and use {{cite web}} to back yourself up.--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 22:30, 22 November 2015 (UTC)