Talk:Gaza genocide/Archive 4

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

Potential RfC on move to Gaza war crimes

Is it worth having an RfC on a move to Gaza war crimes?

[1] is akin to a summary of reliable sources, and is therefore used several times, including in the lead. It says 64% of scholars don't think a genocide is happening, but 91% think major war crimes are happening, including 41% that think they are akin to genocide. It can't be a coincidence articles such as Israeli war crimes, War crimes in the Israel–Hamas war, War crimes in the 2006 Lebanon War exist. COMMONNAME is the main criteria at title policy, there is also PRECISION and consistency.

In the presence of several commonnames, war crimes is more precise and consistent. Would it improve, worsen on simply change scope? Is it worth having an RfC? Tom B (talk) 20:05, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

The topic is "genocide" not "war crimes". Given that Israeli war crimes in the Israel–Hamas war already exists, your suggestion would largely make this topic redundant and completely change the scope of the article. CNC (talk) 20:14, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

thanks would it make sense to merge them? Tom B (talk) 20:26, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Based on a combined article size of 24,000 words, absolutely not. CNC (talk) 20:30, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

But it could be trimmed to 15,000 by using summary style? Tom B (talk) 20:36, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Genocide, along with war crimes and the crime of aggression, are a crime against humanity, the aggression article is currently missing but following the recent ICJ ruling, I expect it will appear in due course, for the hat trick. Selfstudier (talk) 20:40, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Gaza and Hamas aren't the same thing? Tom B (talk) 20:37, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, what? Selfstudier (talk) 20:42, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

I'm not going to bother arguing here as to me it seems a waste of time. There is no need for an RfC on this, there was recently a requested move to the current title, and there is currently a move review. Of course Gaza and Hamas aren't the same thing, but the scope of content regarding war crimes in Gaza and the broader war would quite obviously overlap enormously. CNC (talk) 20:43, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

This would completely change the scope of the article. This article focuses on the accusation of genocide, so the title should reflect the focus on genocide in some manner. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 20:45, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Relevancy of Walberg's comments

This concerns the comments from U.S. politician Walberg in Gaza genocide § Rhetoric from U.S. politicians. Why are those included in this article? According to the text at the top of the article, This article is about genocide accusations against Israel. The comments don't mention Israel at all. ☆ Bri (talk) 17:21, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

GOP Rep. Tim Walberg suggests Gaza should be handled 'like Nagasaki and Hiroshima'

"In a statement, Walberg said he "used a metaphor to convey the need for both Israel and Ukraine to win their wars as swiftly as possible, without putting American troops in harm's way." Isn't genocidal incitement from representatives of Israel's principal ally relevant? Selfstudier (talk) 17:32, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

First of all, that context is absent from the article. Second, I think the question stands: is this article about U.S. politicians, or is it about genocide accusations against Israel? ☆ Bri (talk) 17:39, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

If a high-ranking politician within the country that continuously enables all of the atrocities performed by the Israeli government actively and enthusiastically encourages the use of nuclear weapons against civilian Palestinians, that certainly seems relevant in an article about an ongoing genocide, yes. David A (talk) 17:46, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Strong agree. Dhantegge (talk) 06:36, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

What's up with the title?

If this article concerns a genocide allegation or accusation (which it explicitly does), wouldn't the correct title be "Gaza genocide allegation" or "Gaza genocide accusation"? The current title is misleading, it doesn't accurately represent the actual content of the article. Zohariko1234 (talk) 06:16, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

Decided in an RM, see archive. Selfstudier (talk) 09:05, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 6 August 2024

“On 7 October 2023, Hamas led an attack into Israel from Gaza,[46][47][48] resulting in at least 1,139[49][50][c] deaths, most of whom were civilians.[55]”

Should be changed to the below based on the same citation the original author/exitor used [55]

“On 7 October 2023, Hamas led an attack into Israel from Gaza,[46][47][48] The final death toll from the attack is now thought to be 695 Israeli civilians, including 36 children, as well as 373 security forces and 71 foreigners, giving a total of 1,139. [49][50][c] deaths,.[55] “ Acura12345 (talk) 18:39, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

Due to lack of other qualified contributors' input, it's fair to say that this request is pretty much  Denied. This is not an article about the 10/7 attack, so we don't need to dive into the fine details. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk · contri.) 10:29, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

Complicity: inconsistent formatting?

In the infobox, the title Complicity is centered and has a colon, where the other titles do not. Change to match the rest of the infobox?

Also, American/British/German/Romanian complicity all have sections under International complicity, but Australia does not. I think the paragraph titled Australian legal proceedings should go under International complicity and be called Australian complicity (in the same order that it appears in the infobox).

Also, I think it could be a good idea to have the country links in the Complicity section in the infobox link to the respective section under International complicity in the article.

Bitspectator (talk) 20:00, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

I partially completed this edit request except for moving the "Australian legal proceedings" section under the "International complicity" section because I am not sure if it would be better to write a new subsection for Australian complicity. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk · contri.) 03:46, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

Edit request

Moved from WP:RFED Left guide (talk) 07:14, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

Remove "the Israeli government has historically interpreted any criticism of its actions as antisemitism" from the last sentence of the last paragraph of the opening section.

This specific text should be removed, as it makes a poorly founded and sweeping statement via the wording of "any criticism", hence hurting the neutrality and quality of the page. None of the cited sources prove that the Israeli government claims "any criticism" of Israel is antisemitism.

Aside from the problematic wording of "any criticism", the text also links to another article on "Weaponization of antisemitism", which itself is a deeply contested and controversial discussion. The IHRA working definition of antisemitism has been widely adopted by numerous governments, academic institutions and NGOs and specifies instances where unfair criticisms of Israel, under certain circumstances, may be considered as antisemitic. The text in the article serves to directly dispute/discredit the IHRA working definition of antisemitism, which is inappropriate and biased for a Wikipedia article, particularly on such a contentious topic.

The text should instead mention the Israeli government's claims of antisemitism, while not claiming that it labels all criticisms as such. It is in fact incorrect to claim so, as numerous figures within the Israeli government itself, as well as prominent figures from Israeli society, are openly critical of Israel's current policies. Neutral Editor 645 (talk) 20:17, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

 Done: the reason is simply that both cited sources from the NBC News and the Guardian do not mention anything close to the history of Israel's weaponization of antisemitism. I am open to other editors to revert my removal as long as they can get another qualified source to back the claim. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk · contri.) 07:29, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

Move review

Since the actual discussion is archived, watchers of this page might have missed the notice, but: Talk:Gaza genocide/Archive 2#Requested move 3 May 2024 was listed at Wikipedia:Move review on 22 July 2024. – Joe (talk) 12:14, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

This is still ongoing in case anyone is interested in participating. Hemiauchenia (talk) 17:26, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

As in going nowhere? Selfstudier (talk) 17:28, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

I mean, I would consider "no consensus" to be somewhere. Hemiauchenia (talk) 17:30, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Jihad and Allahu Akbar

Rosenberg in The Atlantic compares the verses on Amalek with Allahu Akbar. But "Allahu Akbar" simply means "God is Great" - there is nothing violent in its meaning. I'm all in favor of comparative religion, but there is no comparison here at all.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 18:40, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

"Allahu Akbar" did not mean "God is Great" . It means "God is greatest." BlackOrchidd (talk) 12:04, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

It’s not our place to decide that. From what I’ve read, Amalek is often invoked in Jewish culture in the much the same way Allahu Akbar is in Islamic culture. BilledMammal (talk) 12:11, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

You would need to provide some pretty strong sources to make such an WP:EXCEPTIONAL claim. I highly doubt Jews say the name of Amalek before every action they do. I highly doubt synangoues broadcast the name of Amalek >100 times a day, the way mosques broadcast Allahu Akbar.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 20:18, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

Flagrant NPOV violation

It’s shocking to me that this move (which I did not even realise had been proposed) was approved. Wikipedia is seriously risking its credibility here. We as a community should not take a side either way and calling the article “Gaza genocide” is very clearly taking a side when that accusation is obviously disputed. Neither my personal opinion nor that of any editor should matter here—we need to find a neutral middle ground and this is not it. —mountainhead / ? 20:52, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

Only about 40% of people voted for it, see [[2]], but the move was endorsed at move review as being at the closers's discretion. Hemiauchenia (talk) 01:35, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

WP:Wikipedia is not a democracy. Whether the move is approved or not is based on valid arguments instead of number of votes on either side. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk · contri.) 02:06, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

My point is that if you had asked a dozen different admins to give their close of the discussion, I reckon a considerable number would have given a very different result from the current close. Hemiauchenia (talk) 02:49, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

An admin can overturn a consensus if they see the previous conclusion is severely flawed. Unless you can give a sound argument to support overturning the previous consensus, admin shopping is much discouraged. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk · contri.) 03:23, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

It's highly unlikely you'll find another admin to overturn this[3]. If you think all these scholars are biased that very well may be so, but you have to bring something more to the table than a hunch. Jonathan f1 (talk) 22:37, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

I'm not asking for it to be overturned. My point is that the discussion could have reasonably been closed multiple ways. Hemiauchenia (talk) 23:22, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure why anyone would be shocked by anything, but if there is something to be shocked about, I think it is better to be shocked by "I did not even realise had been proposed". Increasing engagement in RFCs, RMs etc. about contentious issues should be solvable problem. Sean.hoyland (talk) 03:29, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Every genocide in history has been disputed. — Red XIV ^(talk) 16:02, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Haaretz propaganda

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Just fyi that Haaretz just dropped some propaganda about this article claiming that since its name change it "was regularly getting 55,000 views per day," which is a demonstrably false claim. Makeandtoss (talk) 14:23, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, that is strange, I'm not sure where they could have deduced that number from. The rest of the article is the even handed reporting one would expect from Haaretz, so it's just a weird aberration in an otherwise good article. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 15:22, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

I'm guessing they misread 55k in the past 30 days (which is what the system would have reported a couple of days ago) to mean 55k per day in the past 30 days, as opposed to 55k total. Seems like a pretty innocent error; I think calling it "propaganda" is a stretch. Levivich (talk) 16:13, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Apart from dropping a couple of gratuitous "Hamas-run"s in there. And misreporting that WP editors decided genocide was a fact. But OK, journalists. Selfstudier (talk) 17:30, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Half of MSM throws "Hamas-run"s in; a greater portion misreports what happens on WP. Journalism about any subject is mostly wrong. It's not propaganda, it's the Gell-Mann amnesia effect [4]. (And it's why I think it's so important to source articles to scholarship instead of journalism whenever possible.) Levivich (talk) 19:51, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

The article contains a graph attributed to "analyst Gil Feldman". A blue line, tagged "Gaza_genocide", rises up to 55,000. None of the legends says what timescale the figures represent. As you suggested, it's probably showing monthly page views. Misha Wolf (talk) 18:31, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

It looks to be the wmcloud tool for page views, and the x axis indicates what Levivich postulated, that in the previous month there were ~55k views for the article in total, and this was misread by the author of the article as meaning 55k per day. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 21:52, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Far-fetched to correctly read the view statistics of the former name and misread it for the new name; which is the central claim in that article that the name change amassed multitudes more page views; incompetent journalism at best, propagandistic one at worse. Either way, WP:NOTAFORUM, I only cited this here to bring attention to it. Makeandtoss (talk) 12:30, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

CITEREF error for "Jamshili2024"

Please provide a source for this shortened footnote in the "Works Cited" section of the article. The sfn template may get removed due to failure for verifiability of the source. Thank you, Cowboygilbert - (talk) ♥ 05:34, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Typo for Jamshidi (t · c) buidhe 06:10, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

 Thank you very much! Cowboygilbert - (talk) ♥ 06:12, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Article bloating

We should not try to quote every single op-ed from someone with an academic position who expresses an opinion on this question. For example, Eva Illouz' work seems to have nothing to do with Israel, Palestine, or genocide. An entire paragraph with her incorrect assumptions about a subject she evidently does not know so much about is manifestly WP:UNDUE. (The Genocide Convention does not contain any exception, excuse, or mitigating circumstance so it is irrelevant who is at fault for the war). We should also be giving less weight to stuff published several months ago while the situation on the ground and legal developments continue to change. (t · c) buidhe 22:18, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

• Cdjp1 I'm referring to this edit. (t · c) buidhe 22:19, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

  Removed. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 11:05, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Death toll

The sources used for the death toll in the article aren't all specifically about the Gaza genocide; some are about the war and don't even contain the word "genocide." I think we should base casualty counts on sources that are about the Gaza genocide specifically. Or in other words: in the WP:RSes that say it's a genocide, what do they say is the death toll of the genocide? Here are some sources in the article, mostly from JGR, and what they say about it (bold added):

Sources/quotes

Elyse Semerdjian [5] (17 Jul 2024) [6] in Journal of Genocide Research (JGR): Israel’s offensive in Gaza has claimed at least 37,000 lives; many thousands still lie uncounted under the rubble. In the aftermath of the 7 October attack, the complete blockade of Gaza sent the territory into a state of war-induced famine at unprecedented speed. The UN estimates that one million Palestinians are expected to face catastrophic famine by mid-July. The blockade, coupled with the destruction of 70 per cent of Gaza’s housing stock, all its universities, and most of its hospitals, markets, and schools, removed life-sustaining infrastructure from the strip. After bombing its schools and hospitals, and killing more UN personnel than in any other conflict since its creation, a pending Israeli bill has declared UNRWA (United Nations Relief and Works Agency) – the primary agency supporting Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank –a terrorist organization. This disastrous legislation, if passed, will criminalize the most effective aid distributor in the Occupied Territories, removing a Palestinian lifeline. Gazification set the stage for genocide by attrition by mobilizing checkpoints, surveillance, and security to limit the physical mobility of Palestinians, denying access to land and resources that make life livable. Amos Goldberg (11 Jul 2024) [7] in Jacobin: As a historian, if you look at the overall picture, you have all the elements of genocide. There is clear intent: the president, the prime minister, the minister of defense, and many high-ranking military officers have expressed that very openly. We have seen countless incitements to turn Gaza into rubble, claims that there are no innocent people there, etc. Popular calls for the destruction of Gaza are heard from all quarters of society and the political leadership. A radical atmosphere of dehumanization of the Palestinians prevails in Israeli society to an extent that I can’t remember in my fifty-eight years of living here. The outcome is as would be expected: tens of thousands of innocent children, women, and men killed or injured, the almost-total destruction of infrastructure, intentional starvation and the blocking of humanitarian aid, mass graves of which we still don’t know the full extent, mass displacement, etc. There is also reliable testimony of summary executions, not to mention the numerous bombings of civilians in so-called “safe zones.” Gaza as we knew it does not exist anymore. Thus, the outcome fits perfectly with the intentions. To understand the full scale of this destruction and cruelty, I recommend reading Dr Lee Mordechai’s report, which is the most comprehensive and updated record of what has been happening in Gaza since October 7. For mass killings to be considered genocide it does not have to be a total annihilation ... Nimer Sultany (9 May 2024) [8] in JGR: When these considerations are applied to the case of Israel’s actions in Gaza, it is difficult to see how any of these six western states can deny the existence of a genocide given Israel’s pattern of conduct. On 13 October 2023, the World Health Organization urged Israel to rescind its mass evacuation orders and warned ... Despite these warnings, as of 22 April 2024, Israel killed 34,151 Palestinians in Gaza, including 14,685 children. With thousands more estimated to be buried under the rubble, these numbers are expected to be even more horrific when final numbers become available. Crucially, the deliberate nature of the targeting is clear in that, by 22 January, forty two per cent of the victims in Gaza were killed in Southern areas that Israel had declared as “safe.” Already on 29 October 2023 Save the Children declared that the “number of children reported killed in just three weeks in Gaza is more than the number killed in armed conflict globally – across more than 20 countries – over the course of a whole year, for the last three years.” On 10 November, the World Health Organization stated that a “child is killed on average every 10 min in the Gaza Strip.” Witnesses and doctors revealed that Israeli snipers and quadcopter drones targeted Palestinian children, with gunshots in the head. In addition to direct killing, the “serious bodily harm” that Israel inflicted on Gaza’s children is evident in the unprecedented numbers of amputations. The “serious mental harm” that Israel inflicted on Palestinian children was evident already in October 2023, and became even more evident in April 2024. In February 2024 UNICEF estimated that at least 17,000 children were left orphaned or separated from their parents. Finally, the destructive conditions that Israel inflicted are clear in the effect of starvation on children. This is illustrated not only in the 27 children who died by mid-April 2024, but also in the fact that “for many more, it may be too late to reverse the excruciating toll that starvation takes on small, growing bodies.” In light of these facts, it is unsurprising that UN officials have repeated for months that this is a “war on children” and on childhood, and that Gaza has become a “graveyard for children.” It follows that if these six western states were to deny that Israel has committed a genocide, they would exhibit double standards ... Maryam Jamshidi [9] (6 May 2024) [10] in JGR: The horror taking place in the Gaza Strip – which experienced aid officials have described as unlike anything they have ever witnessed – is unprecedented in the contemporary era. In a little over six months, Israel has killed well over 34,000 Palestinians based on conservative estimates, with thousands more under the rubble and unaccounted for. The daily death toll in Gaza is so high that Oxfam has described it as surpassing that of any major conflict in the twenty-first century. Gaza’s child population has been particularly impacted by Israel’s violence, with Save the Children reporting that children in Gaza have been killed and maimed at an “unprecedented” rate. Thanks to Israel’s total siege of the territory, mass starvation has already arrived and led to more death. Indeed, in its 28 March provisional measures order, the Court noted that “‘Palestinians in Gaza are enduring horrifying levels of hunger and suffering’” and that “[t]his is the highest number of people facing catastrophic hunger ever recorded by the Integrated Food Security Classification system – anywhere, any time.”} Taken together, these facts may be decisive in persuading the Court to do what it largely failed to do in the Bosnia and Croatia cases – conclude that widespread acts of genocide have occurred. Raz Segal and Luigi Daniele (5 Mar 2024) [11] in JGR: This marginalization and disavowal of Israeli mass violence against Palestinian civilians by Holocaust scholars before 7 October morphed thereafter in some cases into outright justification, even as Israel’s attack on Gaza killed Palestinians at an average rate that exceeds, according to Oxfam, the daily death toll of any other case of mass violence in the twenty-first century. Palestinian causalities so far include almost 28,000 fatalities – more than 12,500 children and youth among them – over 67,500 injured, and around 7,000 missing under the rubble and presumed dead. Scholars working, more broadly, in Holocaust and Genocide Studies took a different stance after 7 October, focusing on Israel’s extremely violent attack on Gaza, including the possibility of genocide.

Some are kind of outdated now, I'm not sure how recent they should be. Anyone else have any sources that should be added to this list, or think any of these should not be used a sources? Levivich (talk) 22:10, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Unless I’m missing some context, all of those are saying that this many people have died in the war - not that all are victims of genocide.

As sources need to directly support the claim made these sources are insufficient to support the claim currently in the article, that all casualties are victims of genocide.

As a general note, this means we are saying that indisputably legitimate military targets like Dief, a militant leader who planned the massacres on October 7, are victims of genocide. This is an WP:EXTRAORDINARY claim, and needs considerable evidence to support it - and such evidence appears to be unavailable. BilledMammal (talk) 22:27, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

"Genocide" is a legal term that has been increasingly used to describe what Israel is doing in Gaza as it kills more people, a figure nearing 40,000 and so on.

I think that's straightforward to do, it's not even necessary to specify a figure, all we need is the sources that say that what Israel is doing is a genocide (or genocidal) and there is a surfeit of those, that's why the title was changed. In fact every time Israel kills some more innocents (like today and every other day), that's just adding to it, the number doesn't matter, in fact I don't even care about the number, just the facts of what is being done will do perfectly well, and 10,000 will do as well as 40,000, the figure only needs to be "substantial". As for which ones of whatever number were legitimate targets, the court will have to figure that out at the end and I suspect it will actually make no difference in the final analysis.

As for the Deif distraction, it's not an extraordinary claim that 90 people were killed in the attempt. That seems indiscriminate to me. But I don't think Deif has anything to do with this. Selfstudier (talk) 22:46, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

That source also doesn’t say that they were all victims of genocide.

We need sources that directly support this claim - that say all casualties were victims - and these sources don’t appear to exist. BilledMammal (talk) 22:48, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Hey, I'm agreeing with you, the reality is much worse than 40,000 (or the figure yesterday or the figure tomorrow, it's the actions that are genocidal, the death toll is already genocidal). Experts were saying it was a genocide when the death toll was much less. Selfstudier (talk) 22:50, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, I misunderstood.

In that case, can we remove the death toll, and instead say that more than 40,000 have died in the war? BilledMammal (talk) 22:59, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Sure, what I'm saying is there needs to be less focus on a moving casualty figure and more on the actual facts supporting a genocide (the numbers already do). Selfstudier (talk) 23:03, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

I agree - the exact number of victims isn’t overly relevant to whether it is a genocide. BilledMammal (talk) 00:45, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

This doesn't work this way. Genocide means destruction of a race or ethnic group (genus) – it does not mean the killing of defenceless people only. Yes, fighters and military people can also be victims of genocide. — kashmīrī ^TALK 23:49, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Historically, it depends on the circumstances. The resistance fighters in the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising were victims of genocide, the Soviet soldiers at the Battle of the Seelow Heights were not, despite the genocide of millions of Slavs under Generalplan Ost. The difference is in why they were targeted; in the uprising they were targeted because they were Jews, at Seelow Heights they were targeted because they were soldiers.

This isn’t something we as editors can work out, so we need to defer to reliable sources - and reliable sources don’t appear to say that all casualties in Gaza are victims of genocide. BilledMammal (talk) 00:29, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

In my view, it would never be the job of editors to decide which deaths were or weren't part of a genocide - this responsibility always falls to ereliable sources. Newimpartial (talk) 23:15, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

• Another source[12] (full text): "Specifically, Israel has committed genocidal acts of killing, causing serious harm to, and inflicting conditions of life calculated to bring about the physical destruction of Palestinians in Gaza, a protected group that forms a substantial part of the Palestinian people. Between October 7, 2023, and May 1, 2024, Israel has killed at least 34,568 Palestinians and injured 77,765 other Palestinians in Gaza. These figures in total comprise more than 5 percent of Gaza’s population,4 with over 2 percent of Gaza’s children killed or injured..." VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 06:56, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

This is the third time this relevant topic has been brought up, I can only hope user:Levivich won't interrupt it again. I can only repeat my questions and remarks which were ignored and dodged. Bosnian genocide also lists only civilians in the infobox (33,071), and not soldiers who died in battles (for example, Battle of Vozuća or Operation Tiger (1994)). We also don't consider Greek soldiers who died in the Greek invasion of Western Anatolia as part of the Greek genocide. There is a distinction between armed combatants fighting in a battle and unarmed civilians (or captured soldiers "hors de combat") who were targeted by deliberate killings. The most reasonable solution would be to narrow the scope only to civilians killed. When we have one controversial claim and one conservative, we should go with the conservative until reliable sources directly confirm the opposite. I cannot imagine how someone can seriously try to claim that Hamas militants who kidnapped Israeli civilians and kept them as hostages in basements cannot be subject to military engagement or they would be victims of genocide. That is unserious, and tantamount to claiming that Islamic State, Al-Qaeda and Boko Haram are victims of genocide because government military engaged them.--3E1I5S8B9RF7 (talk) 16:23, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

Is it accurate to say that your proposal is that Wikipedia editors should decide how to count victims of genocide based on a decision procedure that seems reasonable to you? Sean.hoyland (talk) 16:48, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

That’s what we’re currently doing, by deciding that every casualty is a victim. BilledMammal (talk) 03:36, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

I don't know whether that is the case or whether it's based on the law itself not distinguishing between combatants and non-combatants or whether there are source related reasons because I haven't looked in detail. And I'm not planning to look. I'm trying to understand 3E1I5S8B9RF7's argument and why they keep making it when it seems inconsistent with how content decisions should be made. Wikipedia editors obviously can't decide how to count victims of genocide based on local non-policy based rules and that is true regardless of combatant status. It's not really clear to me why there needs to be a number. Surely in terms of victimhood, a number can range from zero (not a genocide) to the total population (everyone is a victim of genocide including the survivors). Sean.hoyland (talk) 05:19, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

The law distinguishes by intent, but it’s not our place to interpret the law.

I think they keep making that argument because the same argument in the opposite direction also keeps being made - I don’t think it’s helpful to focus on just one "side".

Instead, I agree that I don’t think a number is necessary at the current time. BilledMammal (talk) 08:05, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

The total number killed in the war is relevant, regardless of how many of them are "victims of genocide". It is obvious that the casualty count includes some significant number of protected persons within it and that is all that need concern us here. Selfstudier (talk) 08:47, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

To be clear, I mean a number of victims. The number killed in the war should be mentioned in the article.

With that said, protected persons are not necessarily victims of genocide - or even the victims of a war crime (at least not Israel’s war crime - possibly Hamas, for operating from civilian areas) BilledMammal (talk) 09:12, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

protected persons are not necessarily victims of genocide That will be determined eventually, that is merely an aspect of the South African case (and the ICC cases will further inform the situation). I don't see what Hamas has to do with this, crimes against humanity by another party are not an excuse for their commission. Selfstudier (talk) 09:28, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

@BilledMammal did you see this source that gives the genocide death toll? VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 19:49, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

There are several comical inconsistencies with this whole article and the way some users refuse to answer many questions in this topic which reveal contradictions. Wikipedia decided to call this "Gaza genocide" and it must thus now decide and extrapolate everything that goes along with this baggage. For instance, are Hamas militants a "protected group"? If fallen Hamas militants are included in the total death toll, would this be the first ever case in history where terrorists were victims of a genocide? Were Hamas perpetrators of Re'im music festival massacre that were killed by IDF forces also victims of genocide? And should we now make an article akin to "United States complicity in Gaza genocide" or "Australian complicity in Gaza genocide"? All these are questions that will face Wikipedia users sooner or later.--3E1I5S8B9RF7 (talk) 17:44, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

WP:NOTAFORUM (again). Find sources, answer ur own questions, and then comment on the basis of those sources. Selfstudier (talk) 17:52, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

Some experts are arguing that Israel's stated goal to "destroy Hamas includ[ing] both the extermination of its political and administrative leadership and the annihilation of its civilian police force and military wing" is the essential core of the genocide, because "one way to prove this second element of genocidal intent is through evidence that the protected group’s civilian leadership, as well as its military and law enforcement, have been targeted for elimination" (see the linked article for details—noting that the targeting of civilian organizations controlled by Hamas is illegal under international law) (t · c) buidhe 04:49, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

As A. Dirk Moses writes, "This ethnic definition of genocide is compounded by its conceptualization as an irrational hate crime: innocent, blameless victims are attacked for racial rather than political reasons–for who they are, not for what they (or members of their group) have done."[13] But this is a stereotype/popular view that is not reflected in the law—there is no legal requirement that the victims of genocide are "innocent, blameless", or even civilians. (t · c) buidhe 06:02, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

@3E1I5S8B9RF7, I hope buidhe's above reference answers your question "are Hamas militants a "protected group"".VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 11:55, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Hamas is attacked for what they have done on October 7, and thus by buidhe's own definition, they should not be regarded as victims of genocide.--3E1I5S8B9RF7 (talk) 12:56, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

It's a misconception that genocide must be committed for no reason. National security is the motivating factor (not just an excuse) for most or all genocides, which are committed for an identifiable reason based on real actions of some people in the victim group, although usually exaggerated by the perpetrators. For example, you have written extensively about Stalinist deportations considered genocide by some. These deportations had an obvious instrumental motive of protecting the Soviet borders from further "treason" by people from these ethnic groups. Yet the collaboration of some/many Soviet Germans, Chechens, Meskhetian turks, Crimean tatars etc. is undeniable. Today few people outside from tankies would excuse these crimes on the basis that some of its victims were Nazi collaborators. The fact that Israeli leadership perceives its actions in Gaza to improve security and believes that the "elimination" (not merely defeat) of Hamas is "necessary" has no real bearing on the validity of the genocide charge, or arguably supports it. Especially considering that the entire Palestinian demographics is considered a "demographic threat" by many in Israel. (so were Armenians) (t · c) buidhe 14:17, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

@3E1I5S8B9RF7 most Hamas members didn't have prior knowledge nor partook in October 7. The ones that did were mostly killed on Israeli soil and not counted in GHM casualty lists.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 16:35, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

That’s a bizarre article - it conflates the leadership of Hamas with the Palestinian leadership generally.

However, unless I’ve overlooked something, it isn’t relevant to this discussion, as it doesn’t say that all casualties are victims. If I have missed something can you quote it? BilledMammal (talk) 14:24, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

I don't know how you get that interpretation from the article—it says clearly that the attempted destruction of Hamas' military and civilian organizations is a key part of the genocide. (t · c) buidhe 14:31, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

It says

According to some legal experts, one way to prove this second element of genocidal intent is through evidence that the protected group’s civilian leadership, as well as its military and law enforcement, have been targeted for elimination.

It then says that this means targeting Hamas is evidence of intent. However, this requires conflating Hamas, a non-protected group, with Palestinians, a protected group.

However, this is off topic, unless I did miss something and that article says that all casualties are victims? BilledMammal (talk) 14:38, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

I do not consider that your interpretation is plausible. Hamas is not a protected group, but Hamas members are Palestinians so they are part of a protected group. (t · c) buidhe 15:59, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

@BilledMammal you yourself have conflated Hamas with governance of Gaza and its various ministries, including the Health Ministry. The article says For instance, in a recent court filing, the Israeli government stated that its war goals in Gaza include not just “eradicating” Hamas’s military capacity but also its non-military, civilian institutions, which include the “Ministry of Health, Ministry of Economy, the Ministry of Welfare, the Ministry of the Interior, the Ministry of Agriculture and the Government Information Office”. It likewise connects Israel's destruction of Hamas' police to looting of aid convoys, and thus causing Gaza Strip famine.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 16:40, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

That's right, it is the totality of Israeli acts that will decide the matter in the end and in this respect Israel is not only doing badly but digging a deeper hole daily:

Reflecting on Genocidal Intent in the ICJ Case "The desire to exterminate Hamas—in all its aspects—is part and parcel of Israel’s attempt to eradicate the Palestinian people, both as a factual and legal matter. Indeed, Israeli officials have long viewed the destruction of the Palestinian people’s political and military leadership as key to destroying the Palestinian people as a national group. (Kimmerling 10). Grappling with these realities head on cannot and should not be avoided by those seeking to hold Israel accountable for its genocide in Gaza."

and

We Charge Genocide: Redux "Germany, the United Kingdom, Canada, Denmark, France, and the Netherlands intervened in the Myanmar case before the ICJ to advance a broad definition and lower threshold for determining genocide. They contended that since declarations of intent to commit genocide are rare, the Court should not solely focus on explicit statements or numbers killed, but reasonable inferences drawn from a pattern of conduct and factual evidence. Additionally, they maintained that genocidal actions can also include forced displacement from homes, deprivation of medical services, and the imposition of subsistence diets, if systematic. Yet, thus far, they have not sought to extend this reasoning to apply to Israel’s conduct in Palestine, and to intervene to support South Africa’s case at the ICJ." Selfstudier (talk) 17:01, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

BM, I can see why you want to hat this, but please don't bother, it is directly relevant both to the discussion and the article. Selfstudier (talk) 17:12, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

How is it relevant to the discussion? None of the sources provided discuss the number of victims? BilledMammal (talk) 17:36, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

We are discussing protected groups. The first source addresses that directly and is as well relevant to the article as it is yet another source stipulating that the events in Gaza are a genocide. And the second source says why only killings are not the end of it, which he have already discussed earlier. Selfstudier (talk) 17:45, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

We’re discussing the death toll. How are these sources relevant to determining the number of victims we should say there are? BilledMammal (talk) 17:50, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Asked and answered. Selfstudier (talk) 17:55, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

The IHL is clear with regards to the status of a protected person: The Geneva Conventions and their Additional Protocols protect sick, wounded and shipwrecked people not taking part in hostilities, prisoners of war and other detainees, civilians and civilian objects. Armed combatants taking part in hostilities or terrorists cannot be considered protected persons. What user:Levivich and user:Selfstudier are advocating for is intellectual suicide. Just make a thought experiment: imagine if IDF soldiers see a Hamas group keeping 50 Israeli hostages in a storage in Gaza, and said Hamas militants are killing one hostage per minute. According to Levivich's and Selfstudier's logic, the IDF is not allowed to intervene and save the hostages nor harm Hamas militants because they are protected persons.
If Hamas shoots at IDF, the IDF is not allowed to shoot back because that would be "genocide". According to Levivich's and Selfstudier's logic, in the year 2033, Hamas members would be allowed to travel through Europe, have statues and monuments dedicated to fallen heroic Hamas members as victims of genocide in Vienna, Berlin, London, Paris and Rome, hold conferences about their heroic rapists and beheadings, to mark the tenth anniversary of Hamas victims of genocide. Absurd, isn't it? Levivich and Selfstudier exposed their utter bias and inability to remain neutral, objective and rational regarding this issue. Little of what their bias they try to present as neutral makes sense. I highly doubt they should be allowed to make contributions to articles related to the Arab-Israeli conflict.
Soviet deportations during WWII were brought up, but since the Nazi collaborators fled the area and none of them was left on Crimea or the Caucasus when the Red Army captured the territory, they only deported civilians and communists, and therefore nobody is seriously claiming that Nazi soldiers were included in the potential genocide of Crimean Tatars or Chechens. The analogy is thus unhelpful.--3E1I5S8B9RF7 (talk) 17:17, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

@3E1I5S8B9RF7: You are confusing the Geneva Conventions and the Genocide Convention. Yes, combatants can be subjected to genocide, too – unlike the Geneva Conventions, the Genocide Convention is binding absolutely, making no exceptions as to the victims' profession, participation in hostilities, etc. — kashmīrī ^TALK 18:05, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

The Geneva Conventions, as well as IHL as a whole, are separate from the Genocide Convention. Protected persons under the Geneva Conventions are different to protected persons under the Genocide Convention, this is even detailed in the South Africa v Israel case, where Israel has argued that the correct laws to investigated under are IHL, due to the distinction in such laws between armed and unarmed combatants, and not the Genocide Convention. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 19:46, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

I will add that the "some experts" (one non-notable junior academic) being cited has since had an editor's note appended to their piece, reflecting an understanding that its conclusion is a fringe one that was being marketed too sweepingly in the title.

So we still have no real basis for turning the entire death toll of a war into that of a genocide. Hamas says venomous things about Israelis, is every Israeli soldier they kill the victim of a genocide? PrimaPrime (talk) 19:43, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Hamas says venomous things about Israelis, is every Israeli soldier they kill the victim of a genocide? - Yes, possibly. Now, to the first part of your comment, which article are you referring to? As none of the ones so far linked in this discussion seem to conform to your description. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 21:36, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

This one.

So sure, I guess we could run with the WP:EXTRAORDINARY claim that practically any war with a sectarian dimension is a genocide at Hamas genocide against Israelis, currently a more balanced article than this one as it gives some weight to critics of the concept. Wikipedia might be worse off for it, to say nothing of the real world, but the important thing is that sectarians will have their moral trump card - until everyone else realizes the word has been devalued. PrimaPrime (talk) 04:56, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

You seem to imply that this article gives no space to counter-claims, which is patently false. The fact more weight is given to the claims, is due to the fact that the sources available for the claims are more comprehensive in their analyses. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 07:28, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Further to the article, we shall skip past the fact that the "editors note" you point to is just saying that the title changed and nothing in the body changed. So, if you do not like that article, I would point to those I have previously pointed to for justification of using the Gaza Health Ministry's victim numbers, and that is the multiple articles in the Journal of Genocide Research, including by leading genocide and holocaust scholars who use the victim numbers from the GHM in their articles while discussing and stating that what is currently occurring in Gaza is a genocide. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 18:46, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Out of date women and children death toll.

This article uses out of date numbers of women and children death toll. The article states that “Most of the victims are civilians, including over 25,000 women and children” yet the UNOHCA revised their numbers and cut these estimates in half. Please see this Council on Foreign Relations article detailing the change: https://www.cfr.org/blog/un-halves-its-estimate-women-and-children-killed-gaza#:~:text=On%20May%206%2C%20the%20UN,4%2C959%20women%20and%207%2C797%20children. In short, the official number of women and children killed is much smaller than detailed in this Wikipedia article and this article should be updated to reflect that reality (changes from 25,000 women and children killed to 12,750 women and children killed). Hilbertshotel (talk) 12:24, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Not done. This has been discussed many times already. Selfstudier (talk) 12:31, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

@Hilbertshotel the article does not cite the UNOCHA for the number, but ultimately the Gaza Ministry of Health (GHM). When the UNOCHA adjusted their estimations, they adjusted them to be in line with the GHM due to assessing the GHM's methodology to be more appropriate/accurate. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 13:33, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

I have changed it from a specific number claim to the lower bound percentage as confirmed by a secondary source going through the GHM data. This should be less contentious. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 13:56, 15 August 2024 (UTC)