Talk:George Spafford Richardson

George Spafford Richardson has been listed as one of the Warfare good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Review: August 19, 2016. (Reviewed version).

Biography: Military / Politics and Government

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Military history: Biography / South Pacific / World War I

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Common name[edit]

I thought that the article is a bit thin on content for a GA candidate and thus looked into his local body career. From my brief reading, it would appear that his common name is George Richardson. Thoughts? Schwede 66 09:56, 2 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

There are already quite a few George Richardson articles, so I think the middle name is a useful disambiguator. Cheers. Zawed (talk) 04:12, 3 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It seems to be a reasonably common misconception that middle names can be used for disambiguation when that is clearly not the case: "If there is no usual form of conventional disambiguation, place a disambiguating tag in parentheses after the name." If the common name does not include the middle name, it shouldn't be used for dab purposes. Schwede 66 04:32, 3 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Material for possible article expansion[edit]

This funny story was in the newspapers in 1924. Schwede 66 19:01, 2 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 17 August 2016[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Enough oppose arguments that prevent this move from gaining consensus. (non-admin closure) — Andy W. (talk · ctb) 19:50, 24 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

George Spafford Richardson → George Richardson (New Zealand military leader) – As mentioned above and since researched further by reading contemporary newspapers, he was not generally known by his middle name; "George Richardson" was his WP:COMMONNAME. As explained above, middle names cannot be used for disambiguation according to WP:NCPDAB. "military leader" would be a suitable dab, but there's also an Indian military leader of this name so I suggest that we add "New Zealand" to the dab, too. Schwede 66 08:31, 17 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Support this move 2601:541:4305:C70:8CA1:4165:CEFB:318D (talk) 19:19, 18 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Middle names can be used as disambiguators per WP:NCPDAB and WP:MIDDLENAME. He appears in the NZDB, the Encyclopaedia of New Zealand, the National Archives and London Gazette all using his middle name. A search on Trove yields every mention of him using the middle name! So it was the conventional form of disambiguation per WP:NCPDAB, and was used often enough to qualify for WP:COMMONNAME as well. Hawkeye7 (talk) 22:46, 18 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding NCPDAB, what it does say is as follows (italics as per the original): "Adding given names, or their abbreviations, merely for disambiguation purposes (if that format of the name is not commonly used to refer to the person) is not advised." Hawkeye7, where do you see that it can be used for disambiguation, please? Regarding DNZB (not NZDB), you need to know that every single of the 3000 entries lists the subject by their full name. No exception. Their general convention is to mention the common name only once or twice in the article; most commonly in the last paragraph, less commonly during the early life section, but sometimes not at all but they refer to the subject by surname only. The latter is the case here. The London Gazette always uses full names, so this cannot be used to establish common names. Regarding your Trove search, I note that you used 'George Spafford Richardson' as your search term, so what do you expect to find other than entries that use the full name? Schwede 66 21:42, 19 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

That is a good point RE the DNZB practice of full names. Zawed (talk) 22:33, 19 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose, as above. I note that the story from 1924, linked to in the previous section regarding his pension, recites his middle name. Zawed (talk) 06:01, 19 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I never said that the full version of the name isn't in use in contemporary sources. What I said is that the use of "George Richardson" is more common than "George Spafford Richardson". Much more common, in fact. Schwede 66 21:42, 19 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Mild oppose. The current name is based on WP:NATURAL clause, an alternative name that the subject is also commonly called in English reliable sources, albeit not as commonly as the preferred-but-ambiguous title. Do not, however, use obscure or made-up names, and it seems to satisfy those criteria. The wording in WP:MIDDLENAME Adding given names, or their abbreviations, merely for disambiguation purposes (if that format of the name is not commonly used to refer to the person) is not advised (emphasis mine) expressly allows for such treatment, as the practice shows – just skim over other entries at George Richardson. I don't think the nominator provided sufficient evidence that "George Spafford Richardson" is so obscure a reference that it precludes its use as the article title. No such user (talk) 08:53, 24 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@No such user: As you suggested, I have skimmed the dab page. I note that all but one of the entries where the middle name or middle initial is used (apart from our military leader) are from the United States. In the US, the use of a middle name or middle initial is common practice and is thus in line with the common name policy. So what exactly does that prove? 09:19, 24 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

And what does their being from the US has to do with anything? To my knowledge, middle names are about equally (un)used across the English-speaking word in formal, reference texts. Surely they are used in many British biographies as well. I grant you that the WP:COMMONNAME for this person is "George Richardson" but, as it requires disambiguation, we need to check whether he is substantially WP:RECOGNIZABLE under WP:NATURAL title "George Spafford Richardson" (which we generally prefer over "George Richardson (somedab)"). Above, Hawkeye7 provided evidence that he is reasonably often referenced as "George Spafford Richardson" in reliable sources, so that was enough for me. When I google:George Richardson New Zealand and filter out the unrelated people, about every page about him has his middle name included in title or first line, starting from the Encyclopedia of New Zealand or the Auckland Museum. You are simply wrong that middle names cannot be used for disambiguation according to WP:NCPDAB – you're misintepreting that, and I refuted that argument above. No such user (talk) 10:14, 24 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose, the proposed parenthetical disambiguator is too convoluted, and uses capital letters, which is against WP:NCP too. --Francis Schonken (talk) 12:34, 24 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.