Talk:Gerhard Ludwig Müller

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Doctrinal "quotes"[edit]

A number of quotes had been posted as reflecting Müller's doctrinal views, apparently taken from a popular traditionalist blog. Since no proper citation has been given for these quotes, and the works they purport to be taken from are unavailable in English, I have removed these until someone can demonstrate that they are not "original research". (I have left the only one that linked to a source - albeit German - which could be easily checked.) Wikipedia is not the place to post potentially tendentious translations of cherry-picked quotes, and it's notable that the same passages are not featured on Müller's German Wiki profile. 13afuse (talk) 18:22, 3 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I added those quotes from Rorate Caeli, but I was surprised that The Guardian newspaper and the Catholic Culture webzine ended up writing a whole article about it, as if there was nothing more important going on in the world. I think Cardinal Müller is a good person, but my beef with him has less to do with doctrine than with the way he handled the sex abuse cases in southern Germany. I just thought he wouldn't be the best person at the helm of the CDF because of how he handled those abuse cases. At the time, I thought Cardinal Ouellet would have been a better person to lead the CDF, but I'm somewhat biased here because the latter cardinal is from the same country (and province) as me. Now, I'd like to apologize to Cardinal Müller if my reproduction of those quotes from that traditional Catholic blog caused him personal distress. 198.84.255.108 (talk) 02:20, 10 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 2 July 2017[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Not moved. There is no consensus to move at this time. bd2412 T 03:24, 15 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Gerhard Ludwig Müller → Gerhard Müller (bishop) – Per WP:COMMONNAME and WP:BISHOP. 142.160.131.202 (talk) 23:46, 1 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

This is a contested technical request (permalink). SkyWarrior 01:25, 2 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Clear attempt to WP:GAME, this very same IP is currently in a WP:MR (Wikipedia:Move review/Log/2017 June#James Martin Hayes) after similar move they proposed did not recieve consensus. Outcome of MR should be waited for first. Ebonelm (talk) 23:53, 1 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
There is no "attempt to WP:GAME" – I'll ask you to at least make it look like you're trying to assume good faith, Ebonelm.
As to the substantive issue, I have no doubt that even the other participant in the initial discussion would agree that given the nature of the criteria that we are to apply to these matters (from WP:TITLE and WP:NCCL), these decisions can only be made on a case-by-case basis, taking into account how reliable sources refer to the subject of any particular article. The outcome of the previous discussion does not affect the course of action to be taken here. 142.160.131.202 (talk) 01:58, 2 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@142.160.131.202 and Ebonelm: Querying move request, please discuss. Thank you. SkyWarrior 01:25, 2 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support with a question His common name is Ludwig Müller and the appropriate way to differentiate from others with that name is with an attribute like "bishop". But is "bishop" the right attribute? He's had several titles, including archbishop and cardinal. I'd prefer prelate or cleric.
Nor should one be surprised to see multiple requests like this. Many Catholic prelates have WP entries created with a greater regard for formality and ecclesiastical style than for common name. Bmclaughlin9 (talk) 02:08, 2 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Bmclaughlin9: Yes, "bishop" is still the attribute used for disambiguation per WP:BISHOP as it is Müller's Holy Order. And regarding this statement:

Many Catholic prelates have WP entries created with a greater regard for formality and ecclesiastical style than for common name.

You've hit the nail on the head there. 142.160.131.202 (talk) 02:17, 2 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I see that WP:BISHOP advises against the use of archbishop. I don't think it really adresses my point. In this case we have someone who will always be best known as a cardinal. I hate Raymond Leo Burke, but Raymond Burke (cardinal) is far more natural than Raymond Burke (bishop). Bmclaughlin9 (talk) 02:26, 2 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I would suggest that both Müller and Burke are not best known for being cardinals but rather for being senior Roman curial officials, but the long-standing precedent for using the term "bishop" for disambiguation exists because the term is encompassing of their other roles in practice. Similarly, George Abbot was best known for being the Archbishop of Canterbury and Primate of All England, not "just" a bishop, but we use "bishop" for the sake of disambiguation rather than "archbishop of Canterbury" or "primate".
The reason why the terms used for disambiguation are not discussed at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (clergy) § Cardinals is because any article to which it would apply would also fall under the provisions of Wikipedia:Naming conventions (clergy) § Western bishops (or, occasionally, the standards applied to other clergypeople if they are not in the episcopate).
And, in particular, consider those priests to those priests (excluding bishops) who are raised to the cardinalate after their retirement from active ministry and, for the sake of argument, who spent their lives simply as parish priests. They certainly wouldn't be best known as cardinals by any means. 142.160.131.202 (talk) 02:48, 2 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • (edit conflict) Opening comment: WP:COMMONNAME provides that, "Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's 'official' name as an article title; it generally prefers to use the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources." By and large, Müller is referred to as Gerhard Müller much more frequently than the alternatives, namely Gerhard Ludwig Müller or Gerhard L. Müller. This can be seen, among other ways, from the number of search results there are for each when searching for the exact phrase. Respectively, the three potential appellations have 344,000, 173,000, and 12,900 Google search results. Even the Holy See, which in my experience tends to be inclined to use bishops' full names, frequently uses uses something other than Müller's name outside of the most formal documents. 142.160.131.202 (talk) 02:13, 2 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Nobody suggested that WP:BISHOP said anything "about needing to truncate names". You're attacking a straw man. WP:BISHOP was merely cited to justify the term "bishop" being used parenthetically rather than another term; at no point was it suggested that WP:BISHOP justified the use of parenthetical disambiguation itself. (As to your citing WP:BISHOP as a basis on which to oppose the move, we both know that to be disingenuous on your part as there is nothing in the guideline that addresses your argument.)
Rather, parenthetical disambiguation is justified by WP:PARENDIS given that Müller is not "commonly" referred to by his full name and thus the existing title is not what the guideline describes as "an optimal article title." And as we're seeking an "optimal" title, WP:BROKE could not be less applicable. 142.160.131.202 (talk) 05:18, 2 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose, the full name is used occasionally, and natural disambiguation is better than parentheses when we can do without. —Kusma (t·c) 08:55, 2 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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PiS (Poland)[edit]

"Friend of the family" of Poland´s very controversial minister Czarnek, PiS party. https://wiadomosci.gazeta.pl/wiadomosci/7,114884,30002200,media-corka-przemyslawa-czarnka-wziela-slub-msze-poprowadzil.html#do_w=46&do_v=723&do_st=RS&do_sid=1014&do_a=1014&s=BoxNewsImg10&do_upid=723_ti&do_utid=30002200&do_uvid=1690187901850 He celebrated the wedding mess of Czarnek`s daughter. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:9E8:20D3:A000:5853:FFCA:A11B:9DBE (talk) 00:07, 25 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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