Talk:German Spitz

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Eliminate separate breed pages for sizes

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The result was do not merge -- AmeIiorate (talk · contribs) 19:56, 18 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm wondering whether, since the breed stds seem to be the same for the 3 sizes in several kennel clubs, this article should just be the one article, like Dachshund is for the various types? Whatchu guys think? Elf | Talk 18:36, 31 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with this 2 year old comment. I will place the proposal tags in a moment. ~ Ameliorate _{U T C} @ 00:13, 12 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree they should be merged. Vortex (talk) 06:06, 12 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree: I think the dispite being the same breed the differences between the categories results from the categories being quite different both in behaviour and temperament. Take the logic to its limit and all dogs could be put on one page. I belive each of the categories is different enough to warrent their own page. Having a holding page and breaking out to the different sizes makes for a better layout and highlights the differences between the categories.

My reasoning for the merge is that the German Spitz article itself is sort of a pseudo-disambiguation page, when I feel it would be better to have one "good" article mentioning all the breed variations than 5 shorter articles. ~ Ameliorate _{U T C} @ 21:28, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There are actually two article topics here (at least.) According to the article, the German Spitzen is both a breed and a breed grouping in the spitz type. Some of the German Spitz are recognized as separate (from the heading or type of German Spitz) breeds, depending on the registry. The five recognized German Spitz are not the only German Spitz-types; the American Eskimo and the Japanese Spitz are bred from German Spitz, possibly other breeds as well.

"Unter der Rassebezeichnung Deutscher Spitz sind der Wolfsspitz, der Groß-, Mittel-, Klein- und Zwergspitz..."

If the Zwergspitz and the Wolfsspitz have their own pages separate from "German Spitz" (as well as all the other variants and descendants of the German Spitzen, such as the American Eskimo and Japanese Spitz), why not let the the Großspitz, Mittelspitz, and Kleinspitz have their own pages? Keep separate articles for the separate breeds and use the German Spitz article to explain how they are all related.--Hafwyn (talk) 16:25, 18 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed, I'll close this as no merge. ~ AmeIiorate _{U T C} @ 19:53, 18 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Redirections to other languages

The redirections to other languages are a bit in disarray, I'm afraid. We have:

Spitz type
German spitz
Keeshond
Pomeranian

The first is a very general dog type represented by many breeds. The last three however represent in FCI terms just 1 breed, the Deutscher Spitz (FCI standard 97). Actually standard 97 recognizes no less than 10 varieties! (see: http://www.fci.be/nomenclatures_detail.asp?lang=en&file=group5#section4).

The Keeshond is the variety called Wolfsspitz in Germany, the Pomeranian is know there as Kleinspitz.

In Holland the German spitz is known as Keeshond. So there is a difference between the English use of the word Keeshond and the Dutch original.

--Cuon 10:05, 29 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Please, Do not merge the pages of the German Spitz and the American Eskimo Dogs! The American Eskimo Dog may be a deriviate of the German Spitz but they are two distinct breeds and recognized as such within AKC!!!!

Lynn McClure 18:10, 29 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This is really confusing. The Pomeranian under the Fédération Cynologique Internationale is breed designation of German Spitz, as the Zwergspitz. Under the Canadian Kennel Club (and others) it is a separate breed in the Toy group. So it would not be right to only have the Pomeranian on the German Spitz page. The same applies to the Keeshond; under the Fédération Cynologique Internationale it is a Geman Spitz breed, the Wolfsspitz, but has been listed by the Kennel Club (UK) as a separate breed since 1926. The Keeshond should not be merged into the German Spitz page either. The "American Eskimo" breed apparently were originally white German Spitz, but are now accepted as a separate breed (also in three sizes) by the major North American breed registries. So where should they be listed? In addition, the Japanese Spitz (Nihon Supittsu) is a white German Spitz that is now accepted as a separate breed by the Fédération Cynologique Internationale. The Volpino Italiano looks almost identical to other white "German Spitz" types. The Indian Spitz may or may not be a variant of the Pomeranian (German Spitz - Zwergspitz.) All of these deserve to have their own breed articles.--Hafwyn (talk) 15:58, 18 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Naming

The etymology of the term "wolfspitz" derives from the conjunction of "wolf" [self explanatory] and "spiti" [greek "home" or "house"]. Many of the endearing characteristics of the breed can be found in their behaviour as a "house wolf".Far fetched. Pomeranian do got it right. Spiz means pointed in german, referring to nose and muzzle.--Tresckow (talk) 01:13, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Seems fair enough: I've deleted that claim. Remember, you can edit Wikipedia too! ~dom Kaos~ (talk) 11:10, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

History

The source for the claim that "German Spitz are descendants of the ancient spitzen found in the Stone Age and they are the oldest breed of dog in Central Europe" is no longer live, so I've had to delete it and add a {citation needed} tag: if anyone has a current link to a reputable source for this, it would really improve the article ~dom Kaos~ (talk)

I added a citation to a genome sequencing paper that completely contradicts the claim of ancient lineage.Dogface (talk) 15:39, 27 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I just linked the word spitzen so that it would take the reader to the article where it's cited. Chrisrus (talk) 19:35, 16 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Wolfspitz, Disambiguation?

The link in this article wolfspitz takes the reader to the Keeshound, but if you see where it appears in context within this article, it seems to be referring to the oldest fossil dogs in Eastern Europe/Western Asia which are among the oldest dog skeletons that we know. It is said that these skeletons looked like either a spitz or across between a wolf and a spitz. Please go read the origin section of Spitz, which is where I am getting this from, and also please look at the references for that section. The experts who examined those dogs, especially the ones that were a bit wolfier than spitzish, as wolf/spitz, a transitional animal. I think we have two different referents here and there either needs to be a bit of disambiguation. Or, and this might be a better option, it would be best to use a different word in this article or not to link the word "wolfspitz". Chrisrus (talk) 19:30, 16 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed merge of American Eskimo Dog into German Spitz

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

To not merge given that the bulk of the evidence supports them being distinct. Klbrain (talk) 15:06, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

According to our article, this is just another name for the German Spitz. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 19:31, 7 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hello JLAN, I did a rewrite of this (German Spitz) article last year, merging in several separate variety articles. To be honest I am still a little confused by the topic area:

Most sources state the Keeshond or Wolfspitz is Dutch and separate from the breed, but the FCI and VDH claim it is German. As far as I can tell the Dutch Kennel Club just doesn’t comment [1] which is unsurprising, I believe the foundation members of the FCI had to agree on a nationality of number of dual-national breeds (see Poodle#History). So ... I have not merged that in (yet), I need to read more into it.
Despite a majority of sources stating the Pomeranian is German, it appears to have actually been developed in Britain after Queen Victoria fell in love with imported Miniature German Spitz (which was called Pomeranian in Britain) and was bred down in size there to the current breed. But ... again the FCI and VHD claim it as German and the KC remain silent on the issue [2]. The German Spitz club of Germany agrees the Pom was developed in Britain and imported back to Germany in the 1970s [3] (incidentally the Pomeranian club of the UK was founded in 1891 [4], eight years before the German Spitz club of Germany).

Now that I have completely muddied yours (and my) understanding back to the merger, Desmond Morris states the American Eskimo Dog descends from a German Spitz with likely additions of Volpino Italianos and Dutch Keeshonds, all imported into the States in the 19th century.^[1] Whilst they’re clearly closely related I think they’ve been separated for long enough to maintain separate articles. Kind regards, Cavalryman (talk) 04:47, 8 June 2021 (UTC).[reply]

Unfortunately it is recognised by the AKC, and our North American cousins just won't wear a merge. Mac did a good spray on this some time ago - take some European breed such as a Staffie, bring it to the US, and rebadge it as a "Boston Staffie" or something similar. Regarding FCI vs AKC, when money and breeders become involved, things become muddy. William Harris (talk) 09:17, 8 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

American Eskimo and German Spitz are two different breeds of dogs according to: https://www.mydogbreeds.com/german-spitz-klein-vs-american-eskimo-dog. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Unocorn06 (talk • contribs) 13:08, 11 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

A website with no author nor references provided is not a WP:RELIABLE source. (Surely you are old enough not to be listening to strangers you come across on the internet?)

I might have to retract my initial statement; Cavalryman did a good job of merging the Turkish Kangal Shepherd Dog with the "American" Anatolian Shepherd Dog. There is only one source which states that this dog is a German spitz with a name change, and that was Choron 2005. The author produces books on many different topics, and their expertise and where this information came from is queried. William Harris (talk) 05:09, 17 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Morris, Desmond (2001). Dogs: the ultimate dictionary of over 1,000 dog breeds. North Pomfret, VT: Trafalgar Square Publishing. pp. 555–556. ISBN 1-57076-219-8.

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

[1] Morris, Desmond (2001). Dogs: the ultimate dictionary of over 1,000 dog breeds. North Pomfret, VT: Trafalgar Square Publishing. pp. 555–556. ISBN 1-57076-219-8.

[1]