Talk:Graceland/Archive 1

Archive 1

Comments

Where is graceland at ?? And what does it represent?

Its a US National Landmark somewhere near Dollywood. 72.131.106.215 03:24, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Graceland is nowhere near Dollywood. They are at opposite ends of a very long state. Graceland is in Whitehaven, a very poor African-American neighborhood in Memphis. The area was a predominantly white suburban community in the 1950s, but it has been "economically depressed" to quote the article, for about thirty years now. Please do not form your opinions about Memphis based upon the blighted condition of Whitehaven. All cities have such blighted areas.

...and please do not form your opinions on Whitehaven based on your implication that the area became "economically depressed" only after black people moved in, changing it from a "predominantly white suburban community". -- Jalabi99 16:29, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Good point. I visited Graceland with my Father several months ago which got me interested in Presley. The area didn't seem that bad at all. I spoke to one of the tour operators and she mentioned that most of the staff at Graceland are made up of people from the Whitehaven area. Graceland is an important employer in the area and they seem very protective of it. Lochdale 02:01, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Please repaint the gates at Grace 134.22.89.68 (talk) 01:09, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Elvis's death

Here is what reputed Elvis biographer Peter Guralnick says about Elvis's death at Graceland:

The only thing that appeared to have been missed, aside from the empty syringes, was the book that Elvis had in the bathroom with him when he died, a study of sex and psychic energy that correlated sexual positions with astrological signs. Warlick found a stain on the bathroom carpeting, too, that seemed to indicate where Elvis had thrown up after being stricken, apparently while seated on the toilet. It looked to the medical investigator as if he had "stumbled or crawled several feet before he died." ... nine pathologists from Baptist cond acted the examination in full knowledge that the world was watching but that the results would be released to Elvis' father alone. ... Francisco announced the results of the autopsy, even as the autopsy was still going on. Death, he said, was "due to cardiac arrhythmia due to undetermined heartbeat." ... But there were in fact at that time no results to report. The autopsy proper went on for another couple of hours. Specimens were collected and carefully preserved, the internal organs were examined and the heart found to be enlarged, a significant amount of coronary atherosclerosis was observed, the liver showed considerable damage, and the large intestine was clogged with fecal matter, indicating a painful and longstanding bowel condition. The bowel condition alone would have strongly suggested to the doctors what by now they had every reason to suspect from Elvis' hospital history, the observed liver damage, and abundant anecdotal evidence: that drug use was heavily implicated in this unanticipated death of a middle-aged man with no known history of heart disease who had been "mobile and functional within eight hours of his death." It was certainly possible that he had been taken while "straining at stool," and no one ruled out the possibility of anaphylactic shock brought on by the codeine pills he had gotten from his dentist, to which he was known to have had a mild allergy of long standing. The pathologists, however, were satisfied to wait for the lab results, which they were confident would overrule Dr. Francisco's precipitate, and somewhat meaningless, announcement, as indeed they eventually did. There was little disagreement in fact between the two principal laboratory reports and analyses filed two months later, with each stating a strong belief that the primary cause of death was polypharmacy, and the BioScience Laboratories report, initially filed under the patient name of "Ethel Moore," indicating the detection of fourteen drugs in Elvis' system, ten in significant quantity. Codeine appeared at ten times the therapeutic level, methaqualone (Quaalude) in an arguably toxic amount, three other drugs appeared to be on the borderline of toxicity taken in and of themselves, and "the combined effect of the central nervous system depressants and the codeine" had to be given heavy consideration. See Peter Guralnick, Careless Love:The Unmaking of Elvis Presley (1999), pp.651-652. Onefortyone 19:06, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Visitors

The trivia section states that it's the 2nd most visited residence. However, earlier in the article it lists 600,000 annual visitors. The article on the Biltmore Estate gives a figure of a million for that house. Does anyone have a citation for the "second most visited" claim? 72.196.104.129 01:57, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Recent edits

I've taken out trivial matters such as whether Presley shared a bed or not with anyone. This is an article about Graceland. Further, what is material like that doing in this article? I don't understand the reasoning here. Also commentary at the opening, regarding whether it is notable or not to be listed as a National Historic landmark is also trivial and commentary. I welcome any criticism and any help in perusing this article and making it NPOV and encyclopedic. Thanks. --Northmeister 22:47, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

You are talking about making the article NPOV and encyclopedic. Therefore, it is very interesting that you first removed this passage claiming that the commentary was "not appropriate for opening" in order to substitute this one concerning Bush and Koizumi's visit in its stead. Then you mangled some direct quotes by removing these passages from the article. As the quotes give some lively statements about Graceland from different points of view I have reincluded them. Onefortyone 23:19, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

You need to learn to assume good faith towards other editors and to stop inundating articles about men you dislike with trivial nonesense. You've been warned about this and your editing patterns before. --Northmeister 23:29, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

I do not think that removing all quotes that may include some critical remarks concerning Graceland and only including material that praises the National Historic Landmark is in line with NPOV. Onefortyone 23:47, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Do we need these edits?

This article is about Graceland and not directly about Elvis. It should state the facts of this estate, its history - its archetecture - 'notable events' that took place there and what Elvis liked most about the home. Trivial matters like below strike me as out of place for this article:

• There was some discord between Elvis and his stepmother Dee at Graceland, however, and Elaine Dundy said "that Vernon had settled down with Dee where Gladys had once reigned, while Dee herself - when Elvis was away - had taken over the role of mistress of Graceland so thoroughly as to rearrange the furniture and replace the very curtains that Gladys had approved of." This was too much for the singer who still loved his deceased mother. One afternoon, "a van arrived ... and all Dee's household's goods, clothes, 'improvements,' and her own menagerie of pets, were loaded on ... while Vernon, Dee and her three children went by car to a nearby house on Hermitage until they finally settled into a house on Dolan Drive which ran alongside Elvis's estate."[4]

• According to the singer's cousin Billy Smith, Elvis spent the night at Graceland with Smith and his wife Jo many times: "we were all three there talking for hours about everything in the world! Sometimes he would have a bad dream and come looking for me to talk to, and he would actually fall asleep in our bed with us." [5]

These two edits don't fit with the articles intentions - an encyclopedic presentation of the estate Graceland once occupied by Elvis Presley. Instead they relate to non-notable trivial matters that though interesting have no place in the article. Further quotations are tricky - they leave certain impressions that may be out of context like the second one - especially as it was originally worded and added by the same editor that undid credible edits in line with 'featured' articles and other estates like "Monticello". But, this has become a pattern unfortunately for Wikipedia with this editor. --Northmeister 23:43, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

These are some nice quotes from reputed authors and eyewitnesses that give a lively impression of what has happened at Graceland. Onefortyone 23:51, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

What makes them notable enough and relevant for an article on the estate of Graceland? They are trivial and non-related to the structure itself - but Elvis's life. --Northmeister 23:57, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Elvis lived at Graceland and these quotes clearly refer to Graceland and the people living there. They are part of the estate's history. What is missing is a section including some critical remarks about the Elvis cult at Graceland, as there are many critical voices to be found. Onefortyone 23:51, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Your blank reverts and your false claim in the edit summary that my changes were done "without discussion" clearly reveal your actual intentions. See [1], [2]. Onefortyone 00:14, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

"Elvis cult"? Your editing patterns serve one purpose - DISRUPTING TO MAKE A POINT - over and over again. You need to learn good manners. I kept quote one above out of respect and assuming good faith towards yourself - and in the Elvis Presley article I did the same with some trivial and questionable material. Instead of discussing my edits - you assumed bad faith on my part; and reverted my entire efforts towards clean-up and making this article look and feel like other 'good' and 'featured' articles do. Unfortunately you have a history of doing this with Elvis Presley and other articles - adding trivial, dubious, incorrect quotations, over and over again - filling up an article to the breaking point. You need to learn to summarize material. I wanted so mucht to work with you cordially, but I see that is impossible, as you seem to have some sort of agenda as with your statement "Elvis cult" which defames millions of people. It shows your intentions here. --Northmeister 00:19, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

A Wikipedia article on Elvis, Graceland etc. is not a fan site. You are falsely claiming that I am adding incorrect quotations. Would you please provide evidence for your false claim. My quotes are accurately cited. As everybody can see, it is clearly your intention as an Elvis fan to exclude specific material from the article. This is not O.K. Onefortyone 00:27, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Once again, assumption of bad faith. --Northmeister 00:46, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Presley At Graceland section removal for perusal by editors

Presley at Graceland

According to Mark Crispin Miller, Graceland became for Elvis "the home of the organization that was himself, was tended by a large vague clan of Presleys and deputy Presleys, each squandering the vast gratuities which Elvis used to keep his whole world smiling." The author adds that Presley's father Vernon "had a swimming pool in his bedroom", that there "was a jukebox next to the swimming pool, containing Elvis's favorite records" and that the singer himself "would spend hours in his bedroom, watching his property on a closed-circuit television." See Mark Crispin Miller, Boxed in: The Culture of TV (Northwestern University Press, 1988), p.192.

There was some discord between Elvis and his stepmother Dee at Graceland, however, and Elaine Dundy said "that Vernon had settled down with Dee where Gladys had once reigned, while Dee herself - when Elvis was away - had taken over the role of mistress of Graceland so thoroughly as to rearrange the furniture and replace the very curtains that Gladys had approved of." This was too much for the singer who still loved his deceased mother. One afternoon, "a van arrived ... and all Dee's household's goods, clothes, 'improvements,' and her own menagerie of pets, were loaded on ... while Vernon, Dee and her three children went by car to a nearby house on Hermitage until they finally settled into a house on Dolan Drive which ran alongside Elvis's estate." See Elaine Dundy, Elvis and Gladys (2004), p.329-330.

"In the late 50s, Elvis was fond of claiming that the US government had mooted a visit to Graceland by Nikita Khrushchev, he wanted the Soviet leader 'to see how in America a fellow can start out with nothing and, you know, make good'." (John Harris) See John Harris, "Talking about Graceland". The Guardian, March 27, 2006.

I am of the opinion that like the Monticello article on Jefferson's home, this article should follow pretty much the same standard. I took this section out in lieu of discussion. I am open to any opinions on the matter before we include it again. --Northmeister 18:03, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

The passages you have deleted include much information concerning Graceland and the people who lived there and were/are interested in Elvis's estate. If Bush and Koizumi's visit to Graceland belongs in the article then the other material is also of some importance, especially since it is well sourced and clearly related to Graceland. Onefortyone 02:42, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Well sourced? Give me a break. Listing books and quoting them out of context and placing various citations in articles completely unrelated is not verifiable sourcing. What you are here for is one thing proven by your edit history - Interupting Wikipedia to make a Point. It just behooves me that obstructionist and clearly agenda driven behavior such as yours is allowed to continue to harass editors. The Monticello article doesn't go into great detail about whether Jefferson slept in the same bed with his cousin or how he treated his in-laws - rather it deals with that famous home and its history - so to should this article period. --Northmeister 05:02, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Where the article should go

My intentions with this article are clear: Clean-up and making sure it fits wikipedia standards. To do so I've research other historic homes and found a clear outline on what is discussed related to that home. See Monticello, Mount Vernon, and the White House for examples of what I see the Graceland article becoming. Thus, I feel it entirely unnecessary to include antidotes and trivial matters unrelated to history, architecture, layout, and recent events surrounding the home. The passage objected to by 'onefortyone' in the opening was built with the previous articles openings and wikipedia standards as a guide. This is why I included what I have - much to the contrary of what user 'onefortyone' contends time and again here. Rather than working with others, he is a disrupter who wishes to get his own way - and if not - then resorts to name calling 'Elvis cult' - 'your a member of the memphis mafia' - 'Sockpuppet' etc. This is not the conduct of cordial editing nor of fair minded disputing of page look - design - or content. Thus, my reverts of his material in the past (he was once banned for doing the same things before) and why I will continue to revert what I consider Disruptive editing - where said user Onefortyone simply puts the same material in over and over again - without honest discussion but namecalling. I apologize to any good intentioned soul who wishes to edit this article and is put off by this stuff. --Northmeister 00:58, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Visits to Graceland

This paragraph is confusing because it doesn't specifically mention graceland at all. The reader is forced to assume that Dale Jr unveiled his car at Graceland, but this fact is not actually stated.

"On August 14, 2007 (2 days before the 30th anniversary of Elvis' death) Dale Earnhardt Jr and his grandmother Martha Earnhardt unveiled his #8 Budweiser/Elvis Chevrolet that he raced at the 2007 Chevy Rock and Roll 400 in Richmond the following September 8." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.148.223.4 (talk) 01:01, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

POV and nonhelpful Edits

"There are even film titles ironically alluding to Presley's estate and the Elvis cult practised there nowadays." - Edits like this by user onefortyone or 80.* are inappropriate and POV. "Elvis cult?" - they have one purpose and that is to disrupte editing on any page related to Elvis or other celebrities to make a Point ie. "Elvis cult" or "Elvis died on the toilet" which is not the case - he was found on the floor of his bathroom away from the 'john' and such gratuitous material if appropriate is not for this article on Graceland Mansion. It is trivial at best and inaccurate as stated before at most - but disrupting editing on any article to push a point include past actions to prove Elvis was homosexual (which the editor in question has recently done again at [[Talk:Jailhouse Rock (song) ]] in March 2007) is what it is. I tried to work with this editor in the past but this editor doesn't wish to work cordially it seems - unless he has all his plot points mentioned above included in every article; even if they are inaccurate and highly charged. If this editor wishes to work cordially then he needs to show good faith with the community by altering his ways and offering reasonable edits. I suggest he take a break from any celebrity articles for a year to cool off. --Northmeister 00:05, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

You are wrong, Northmeister. There are many sources deeling with the Elvis cult practised at Graceland. See, for instance, Gilbert Rodman, Elvis after Elvis: The Posthumous Career of a Living Legend (1996), who points out that the Elvis cult has been much criticized: "As one reader complained: I was really surprised that you used that article about the boring Elvis cult! You would use one on McDonald's?" ( p.75). In their essay, "When Elvis Died: Enshrining a Legend," Neal and Janice Gregory critically discuss the media attention on the Elvis religion. In another paper, Mark Gottdiener deals with "Dead Elvis as Other Jesus." For these essays, see Vernon Chadwick, ed., In Search of Elvis: Music, Race, Art, Religion (1997). See also the essay, "Saint Elvis" in Elvis Culture, by Erika Doss (University of Kansas Press, 1999) and Gregory L. Reece's study, Elvis Religion: The Cult of the King (2006), describing how Paul Simon's 1986 song "Graceland" presents Graceland as a holy place and how movies like "Finding Graceland" and "Mystery Train" bear spiritual messages, etc. According to David Lowenthal, "Everything from Disneyland to the Holocaust Museum, ... from Elvis memorabilia to the Elgin Marbles bears the marks of the cult of heritage" See The Heritage Crusade and the Spoils of History (Cambridge University Press, 1998). Paul A. Cantor goes as far as to call the American Presley cult "a postmodern simulacrum of the German Hitler cult." See "Adolf, We Hardly Knew You." In New Essays on White Noise. Edited by Frank Lentricchia (Cambridge University Press, 1991), p.53. As far as Elvis's death on the toilet is concerned, Elvis biographer Peter Guralnick wrote,

Warlick found a stain on the bathroom carpeting, too, that seemed to indicate where Elvis had thrown up after being stricken, apparently while seated on the toilet. It looked to the medical investigator as if he had "stumbled or crawled several feet before he died." See Careless Love: The Unmaking of Elvis Presley (1999), p.651.

This clearly contradicts your false claim above that it "is not the case" that Elvis died on the toilet of the bathroom at Graceland. You have repeatedly deleted well-sourced information including historical facts concerning Elvis's mansion, the people once living there, accounts by eyewitnesses and bibliographical references. You even include false information in the opening of the article, such as "Koizumi, who is the longest-lasting Prime Minister in Japanese history". In fact, Koizumi served as Prime Minister of Japan from 2001 to 2006. I have corrected the passage and moved it to another section of the article, as it does not belong in the opening of the article, but you are still reverting the article to the version you prefer. What you are doing is POV and not acceptable. Onefortyone 02:32, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

The quote above "Warlick found a stain on the bathroom carpeting, too, that seemed to indicate where Elvis had thrown up after being stricken, apparently while seated on the toilet. It looked to the medical investigator as if he had "stumbled or crawled several feet before he died." See Careless Love: The Unmaking of Elvis Presley (1999), p.651." given does NOT say that the singer died on the toilet. Your doing original research in order to prove your point - as is the case with the 'Cult' issue.

The full quote from Guralnick's book has now been included in the article. Onefortyone 23:50, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

• Whether a "reader" refers to Elvis fans as a "Cult" is irrelevant - as your own personal views are irrelevant for this article. You've gone out and cherry picked sources for crumbs of information including "Elvis Religion: The Cult of the King" which is misinterpreted or represented by you as is the Guralnick quotation.

Cult media expert Dr Matt Hills (Cardiff University) asks, "Can it be argued that Graceland is not, for example, an instance of 'cult geography'?" The answer is to be found in a chapter entitled, "Graceland and other tales of hyperreality" in the author's academic study, Fan Cultures (2002), p.151 ff. As for Professor Reece's book, Elvis Religion, the author thinks that Graceland is all bad taste. Reece talks about "white trash" (p.67) and "southern white and Euro-trash tourists" (p.110). When referring to Elvis's furnishings at Graceland the author uses the words "tacky" or "tackiness". Here is a review of this book by Simon Reynolds (author of Rip it Up and Start Again: Postpunk 1978-84): "From Graceland to Las Vegas, from fans to impersonators, from novels, films and popular music to internet websites, outsider art and tabloid conspiracy theories, the cult of Elvis Presley has, since his death, become ever more imaginative. Elvis Religion explores the frequently bizarre and weird - yet sometimes moving - phenomena growing out of this world and investigates what it is that has turned the King of Rock 'n' Roll into a god-like figure. Elvis, we discover, is found everywhere. He is not just an icon for late night lonely hearts in Memphis, or Elvis impersonators on a Vegas stage, but is the inspiration behind the violent visions of movies like "Mystery Train" and "Wild at Heart", the kitsch sanctuary of Graceland Too, the music of Kirsty MacColl and Paul Simon, and the internet church for whom he is a supernatural being who dwells in the constellation of Orion. Gregory L. Reece makes a journey to discover the Jumpsuit Jesus for himself, which takes him into the heart of fan obsession. Along the way, he discovers that if Elvis saves it is because now, more than ever, the Memphis Messiah seems like a prophet for our times. A well-done and readable survey." Onefortyone 23:50, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

• Further what you don't understand is that you infuse into articles trivial matters cherry picked to prove 'your' points like: "Elvis is homosexual" such as "he slept in the same bed..." quotation you keep putting in the article that has no relevance to Graceland the estate' "Elvis died on the toilet" which is not proved by the quotation given but the opposite - he crawled and then died sometime after throwing up which is the correct reading. Doing this is what makes me question your motivations along with everything else you've done to create tremendous discord among editors trying to stay neutral and trying to keep articles factual.

• You also name call - and throw a tantrum if you don't get your way - then provide numerous lists of books and say "reliable source" - "reliable source" - "I have reliable sources" - you can't take that out. Well, if it is out of context - if it is not accurate interpretation (as above) - if it does not apply to the article (like this one about the estate) - and if it does not reflect the accepted standard of scholars - then it is going to cause other editors to remove your material.

• Since coming to Wikipedia you seem to bloat articles about celebrities with gossip, hearsay, and numerous trivial matters - or cherry picked segments taken out of books either misinterpreted like above or taken out of context and fused in a manner to prove your POV. My invitation above (one of many) for you to tone it down and start working in harmony with me or anyone else was obviously ignored like so many other times before. I will not accept your edits here or elsewhere that are not in line with Wikipedia policy. But, I am not here to judge you or anyone else either. If you show your willing to work out problems I will work with you through this still as I have no intention but to provide a good article that is factual. You need to take a very long break; and consider what the problem is with your edits; and reconsider your name-calling. --Northmeister 04:05, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Although you are a devoted Elvis fan, you should not remove sourced alternative points of view simply because they are not in line with your personal opinion. Here is what the arbcom says: "Onefortyone's editing has substantially improved from that in the earlier arbitration cases. A sampling of edits shows reference to reliable sources without overstating of their content. To a greater extent he allows the reader to draw their own conclusions." See [3]. Therefore, my opponent Lochdale, who had shown "evidence of misunderstanding of Wikipedia:Neutral point of view" and "has removed large blocks of sourced material from Elvis Presley," was "banned indefinitely from editing articles which concern Elvis Presley." Onefortyone 23:50, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Editing of article

Until cordial editing is done by user Onefortyone or the community deals with his editing patterns I will no longer involve myself in this article and let his repeated patterns continue unabated. There is ample record for future editors to explore before attempting cleanup and NPOV here - I invite all concerned party's to cleanup this article and restore its encylopedic nature - and wish them the best. Expect namecalling, false accusations, and edit wars if you try to do anything proper with the article. If you need assistance - just drop me a line. --Northmeister 05:14, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Having return to this article; I found it in the same state - trivial matters without notability. I've removed these, while maintaining the material placed by onefortyone into the article. This editor needs to engage the community rather than simpley reverting. Let's discuss your edits below in a reasoned manner and why they should be restored. --Northmeister 11:05, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Several other contributors have visited the article, among them many Elvis fans, and they have no problems with the material you frequently delete. It is certainly not "trivial matters without notability," as you claim. The information is well sourced. Therefore, I have again reinstated the passages you have repeatedly removed. Onefortyone 22:57, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

You need to be more cordial with others. I certainly want a good article pertaining to the subject. I assume you want the same. You could show an act of good faith and restore my edits and then discuss what you propose to put back in below. We may be able to work this out. --Northmeister 03:10, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Gracelands

People very often call Graceland, Gracelands. Shouldn't this be mentioned to make a point of informing these people of its actual name?

• I don't think this is necessary. If one doesn't already exist, a redirect should suffice. 23skidoo (talk) 15:23, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Advertising

The visiting section reads like it was written by someone from Graceland's touring service. Constant use of "you" a clear giveaway of the section's author's intent. Someone should clean this up to be encyclopedic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.215.174.164 (talk) 21:51, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree, the 'Tourist Destination' section sounds like its come straight out of a tourist brochure for Gracelands. --Flashflash; 18:06, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Physical Location

I'm concerned about this statement, "It is located at 3734 Elvis Presley Boulevard in the vast Whitehaven community about twelve miles (19 km) from Downtown and less than four miles (6 km) north of the Mississippi border." An analysis of Google Maps indicates that Graceland is no more than 8 miles from the area labeled "Downtown Core." I'm not familiar with Memphis, so this may be a misunderstanding on my part, but if not, let's fix this. 198.214.232.10 (talk) 17:05, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

I'll see what I can do.... ElvisFan1981 (talk) 17:42, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

thanks for fixing that, but now the metric conversion is off: 9 miles is about 14.5 km 198.214.232.10 (talk) 16:59, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

Whooops, my mistake, I should have noticed that lol ElvisFan1981 (talk) 17:53, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

"Presley made lists outlining items to be kept in Graceland at all times"

I don't have the book that is referenced, "Life & Cuisine Of Elvis Presley" but I have the book "Inside Graceland" by Elvis' maid, Nancy Rooks, and there is no mention of any lists there (as far as I know Elvis never was a primadonna, like so many artists today) and on page 54 says "He [Elvis] might ask for a hot dog with sauerkraut at midnight. This necessitated us trying to always keep the refrigerators and pantries stocked in anticipation of what he might ask for." ...just throwing this out there :) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.208.181.44 (talk) 22:02, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

Recent Developments: incomprehensible sentence

The Recent Developments section ends with the following incomprehensible and unsourced statement: "While visitor numbers grew to around 700,000, by 2005, and partly due to the negative impact on US tourism of 9/11, visitor numbers at Graceland had reportedly declined to around 600,000 due to the rough surrounding neighborhood." Can someone fix this up? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.49.143.254 (talk) 16:34, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

650,000 visitors

As User:Excelse has repeatedly removed the information that Biltmore Estate has more visitors than Graceland, here are some additional sources:

• According to the Memphis City Council Summary Sheet (2014), Graceland is "the third most visited residence in the United States, after the White House and the Biltmore Estate ..." See [4], [5].
• "Graceland hosts 600,000 visitors annually, making it the third-most visited home in the U.S. behind the White House and Biltmore." See Memphis Daily News, VOL. 129, NO. 233, Monday, December 01, 2014.
• "Graceland is the third-most-visited home in the U.S., after the White House and the Biltmore in Asheville, North Carolina, according to Elvis Presley Enterprises, which manages the attraction." See [6].
• Biltmore Estate "hosts almost one million visitors every year." See [7].
• "The largest private home in the United States and a National Historic Landmark, the house welcomes approximately one million visitors each year." See [8].
• "Biltmore Estate ... attracts nearly one million visitors a year." See Ellen Erwin Rickman, Images of America: Biltmore Estate (2005), p.130.
• "Graceland, the mansion estate of Elvis Presley, is one of the most frequently visited private homes in the country. In fact, the late King of Rock’s home places third only after the Biltmore Estate and the Whitehouse." See [9].

It should also be noted that in 2007 another user has written on this talk page: "The trivia section states that it's the 2nd most visited residence. However, earlier in the article it lists 600,000 annual visitors. The article on the Biltmore Estate gives a figure of a million for that house. Does anyone have a citation for the 'second most visited' claim?" See above. Therefore, the correct information was later included by user DomiAllStates. See [10]. However, this has recently been removed by Excelse (see [11]), which is not O.K. Therefore, in the first week of November 2015, I have reincluded the correct information given by user DomiAllStates in 2011, adding some additional sources in order to support his edit. So there are three users questioning Excelse's view that Graceland is the second most visited US residence.Onefortyone (talk) 19:57, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

Problems with your sources:-

• [12], [13] are same links and unreliable, they are from a memphis helpline website.
• [14] not a mainstream source.
• [15] not confirmed by Elvis Enterprises.
• [16] so what if Biltmore is said to be getting one million visits? Graceland also gets one million according to some sources.[17]
• [18] - same as above.
• [19] - self published real estate website.

Question:- Do these unreliable sources hold any water compared to [20], [21], [22], [23], [24], [25], [26], [27], [28] ? And a few thousands of more if you want. Excelse (talk) 07:46, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, Excelse. This is the first time that you are providing a list of sources in order to support your argument. Now we have a problem, as our sources contradict each other. Therefore, it is of much importance if the source is presenting the actual number of visitors annualy. As far as I can see, most more recent sources say that Graceland has 600,000 or 650,000 visitors and Biltmore 1 million visitors. One of your sources that claims that Graceland is the second most visited US residence says that they have 500,000 visitors. Volume 1 of Linda Kay Davidson and David Martin Gitlitz's Pilgrimage: From the Ganges to Graceland: an Encyclopedia says that Graceland has more than 750,000 visitors (p.204). According to the "Elvis Information Network", "Like other attractions, Graceland’s attendance has leveled off at between 500,000 and 600,000 visitors a year. Soden's goal is a million visitors a year and to break a 'five-year cycle' of focusing on the anniversaries of Elvis’s death or birth." However, this is not a reliable source. Perhaps you can provide lots of sources for the claim that Graceland has now as many visitors as Biltmore. It should also be noted that the officials of the "Memphis City Council" said in December 2014 that Graceland is "the third most visited residence in the United States, after the White House and the Biltmore Estate". This is certainly a reliable source, as this information must be based on the official statistics. Onefortyone (talk) 13:14, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

You may not believe it, Excelse, but I did some further research and must admit that you are right that there are several sources claiming that Graceland is the second most visited US home after the White House. Here are some examples of more reliable sources:

• "Attracting over half a million visitors annually, it is the second most-visited home in the United States after the White House." See Bernie Keating, Music: Then and Now (2011), p.112.
• "Graceland attracts more than 500,000 visitors each year and is the second-most toured house in America, topped only by the White House." See Marlo Carter Kirkpatrick, It Happened in Mississippi: Remarkable Events that Shaped History (2013), p.79.
• "Graceland is the most visited private home next to the White House. Approximately six hundred thousand people tour it each year." See Gerry Hempel Davis, Romancing the Roads: A Driving Diva's Firsthand Guide, Volume 1: East of the Mississippi (2015), p.169.
• "Elvis Presley's Graceland in Nashville has seven hundred thousand visitors a year, charging nine dollars a head, whereas the White House has only a million, charging nothing." See John Paul Russo, The Future Without a Past: The Humanities in a Technological Society (University of Missouri Press 2005), p.37.
• "Today, Graceland is the most visited home in the US after the White House, with more that 700,000 annually paying to see Elvis' home and grave." See Thomas Blom, "Morbid Tourism", in Phil Long and Nicola J. Palmer, eds., Royal Tourism: Excursions Around Monarchy (2008), p.153.

So this must be noted in the article. However, there are also sources stating that Graceland is the fourth most-visited house in the USA:

• "An average of 680,000 guests visit Graceland each year, making it the fourth most-visited house (the White House, Hearst Castle in San Simeon, California, and the Biltmore estate in Asheville, North Carolina, are numbers 1 through 3)." See Stephen P. Robbins, Robin Stuart-Kotze, Mary Coulter, Management (1997), p.235.
• "Graceland is voted fourth Most Visited Historic House Museum in the United States, on the list compiled by the Almanac of Architecture and Design." See Mary Clayton, Elvis (2003), p.380.
• "Graceland is voted fourth Most Visited Historic House Museum in the United States." See Karen E. Alderson, Elvis Presley Findings (2012).
• "Graceland is surpassed by only two other house museums, the Hearst Castle and George Vanderbilt's 255-room Biltmore House, each with 850,000 visitors annually." See Howard Mansfield, "Graceland", in The Same Ax, Twice: Restoration and Renewal in a Throwaway Age (University Press of New England 2000), p.72.
• "Tourist attractions include the Hearst Castle in San Simeon, with more than 1 million visitors each year." See Morro Bay Harbor: Feasibility Report, Volume 1, p. 32.
• "About 1.1 million visitors come to Hearst Castle every year." See Tracy Irons-Georges, America's Historic Sites: Alabama-Indiana (2001), p.125.
• "The Enchanted Hill, or Hearst Castle, attracts 1 million visitors per year." See Hearst Castle: Hearst San Simeon State Historical Monument, 2009.
• "High above San Simeon ... stands the opulent mansion built by newspaper baron William Randolph Hearst ... the buildings and grounds attract more than a million visitors a year who come to admire the art, architecture, and gardens of Hearst Castle." See Richard Mcmahon, Bruce Grubbs, Camping Southern California: A Comprehensive Guide to Public Tent and RV Campgrounds (2013), p.28.

These latter statements certainly contradict the other ones. However, they may not be based on current statistics. On the other hand, the following source indicates that the most common claim comes from Graceland itself:

• "The number of visitors making the pilgrimage to Graceland every year has climbed to three-quarters of a million — making it, Graceland officials like to boast, the single most visited home in America, save for the White House." See Ron Rosenbaum, The Secret Parts of Fortune: Three Decades of Intense Investigations and Edgy Enthusiasms (2000).

I like the expression, "Graceland officials like to boast", as exactly this seems to be the case, if both Biltmore and Hearst Castle have 1 million visitors, as the other sources claim. Perhaps the Wikipedia article should say, "Many sources claim that Graceland is the second most visited US home after the White House. The numbers of visitors differ between 500,000 and 750,000 a year. However, some other sources say that Biltmore Estate and Hearst Castle have more visitors than Graceland, making it only the fourth most-visited US house." So the reader can decide which source he thinks is closer to the truth. Onefortyone (talk) 00:07, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

As you have claimed above that Graceland has 1 million visitors a year, I did some further research. This number cannot be proved by evidence. Here are some more recent sources stating that Graceland has "an average of 500,000" or "over 600,000" visitors:

• "...the flow of tourists has remained steady, with an average of 500,000 annual visitors to the mansion and exhibit area across the street, according to Soden." See Graceland, Elvis Presley’s home, marks 30th year as tourist destination, Daily News, Wednesday, June 13, 2012.
• "The private company does not make Graceland attendance statistics public, but the EPE website states that 'Graceland welcomes over 600,000 visitors each year'. Occasionally, word does get out about specific attendance numbers from various years. As recently as 2010, Graceland hosted 519,000 visitors, down from 540,000 the year before." See [29]
• This current statement comes from Elvis Presley Enterprises, Inc.: "Graceland welcomes over 500,000 visitors each year, is one of the five most visited home tours in the United States, and is the most famous home in America after The White House." See [30]. So they say that they do not have 1 million visitors. Interestingly, they also do not say that Graceland is the second most visited US house, being well aware that Biltmore and Hearst Castle have more visitors. They only claim that Graceland is the "most famous home in America after The White House". That this is only a claim is also confirmed by the following source:
• "According to Jack Soden, chief executive of Elvis Presley Enterprises, ... 'Graceland is so famous it is arguable that on a worldwide basis, it is the second most famous home in America' (BBC, 2006). Although rarely perceived as a historic site, Graceland entered a new era with its landmark status." See Mariruth Leftwich, "Welcome to my World: Personal Narrative and Historical House Interpretation", in Juliette Fritsch, ed., Museum Gallery Interpretation and Material Culture (New York: Routledge 2011), p.124. Onefortyone (talk) 17:36, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Will check this all in coming days and also use RFC or noticeboards. For now removed disputed material as lead is crucial. Excelse (talk) 18:03, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Issues

Onefortyone, the reason why I removed[31] your edits, because they have following problems:-

• It is Graceland that is 2nd most visited place in the USA.[32], [33], [34], [35] Not Biltmore Estate.
• "The décor throughout the house has often been criticized" is incorrect, it has not been criticized by anyone. Then you put up the quotes of Albert Goldman, a fringe theorist on Elvis Presley, and added them under Graceland#Basement, which is irrelevant.
• Those "conflicting reports" about his death have no relevance on this article, especially when they are disputed or rejected enough times.

This is why this kind of content misleads and should be removed. I don't see any consensus for adding it on archives or previous discussion either. Excelse (talk) 11:02, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

As a comparison of the sources shows, it has only been claimed that Graceland is the 2nd most visited house in the USA. In fact, both Biltmore Estate and Hearst Castle have more visitors than Graceland. Even Elvis Presley Enterprises, the company that runs Graceland, currently states on their webpage that "Graceland welcomes over 500,000 visitors each year" and that it "is one of the five most visited home tours in the United States." The décor at Graceland has been criticized by different authors, among them academics, as the direct quotes from exemplary sources show. That's why a special section of the article deals with this criticism. Several sources agree that Elvis died on the toilet of his Graceland bathroom while straining at stool (see these quotes from authorities here, among them mainstream Elvis biographers and medical doctors). This is an important fact and must be mentioned in the article, especially since it is common knowledge that the "King died on the throne". Onefortyone (talk) 23:30, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

How a fringe polemic can be considered as "academic" and we can consider other academics having same opinion without knowing even a single one? It is clear misrepresentation of source. Nor there is any need to describe a minority opinion about his death that he died on toilet. Can you describe what is the relevance? You are saying that because they happened and they sound critical to subject, that's why they should be there, but there is lack of relevance. Excelse (talk) 11:54, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

In his critical study of Elvis, Professor Goldman has described Graceland as looking like a brothel. Mainstream Elvis biographer Greil Marcus, who graduated in political science at the University of California, Berkeley, says in similar terms that the decór to be seen at Graceland is tasteless "white trash". Karal Ann Marling is an academic whose book, Graceland: Going Home With Elvis was published by Harvard University Press. These are reliable sources quoted in a special section entitled, "Critical voices about the décor". What should be wrong with this? Furthermore, many independent sources say that Elvis died on the toilet of his Graceland bathroom. So this mainstream view should also be mentioned in the article. Onefortyone (talk) 14:25, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

I wouldn't say that this is a "mainstream view". It's more likely the view of a typical Jewish professor, most of whom don't like Christian gospel singers. This discussion could go on and on, but it's really disrespectful of someone who is no longer alive to defend himself. Santamoly (talk) 01:30, 25 December 2015 (UTC)

Lisa Marie Presley to be buried in Graceland

https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/story/2023-01-13/lisa-marie-presley-death-benjamin-keough-graceland

Note this is in talks for now as the family navigates through crazy times

https://www.wsmv.com/2023/01/14/graceland-go-lisa-marie-presleys-daughters/

Also the surviving children of Lisa Marie Presley are named as heirs to hold on to Graceland.2601:640:C682:8870:243C:CFEB:DC1A:C631 (talk) 06:10, 14 January 2023 (UTC)

Hello, I am new

Hello, Im Harry. Call me Hazer. I'm new to this stuff and I am keen to start editing and stuff cheers, Hazer 2A02:C7D:5213:8100:8053:FA0F:3671:38D4 (talk) 14:48, 3 April 2017 (UTC)