Talk:Greçë Memorandum

Too short

The stub article is too short. At least the date of the so called Red Book may be given. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 17:24, 18 August 2012 (UTC).

Village in Montenegro or Albania?

Below presented source explains that this document was drafted in a village in Montenegro in 1911:

Gawrych, George (26 December 2006). The Crescent and the Eagle: Ottoman Rule, Islam and the Albanians, 1874-1913. I.B.Tauris. p. 186. ISBN 978-1-84511-287-5. On 23 June 1911, the Albanians gathered in the small village in Montenegro and drafted the Gerche Memorandum, also known as The Red Book.

Simon Ivezaj insists to add unreferenced assertion that this village is in Albania now. As far as I know, no 1911 territory of Montenegro belongs to Albania today. If this information remains unreferenced within a reasonable time (i.e. a week) it should be removed.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 16:43, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Here is a map of the Kelmend region of the Malesia e Madhe municipality of Albania. Grec is cleary listed just north of Selce on the Albanian side of the border. AntiDisk/Zoupan - You may have read much about Malesia history but do not attempt to manipulate the history of Malesia on Wikipedia. I have been to Grec and crossed/hiked the "international boundary" from Korite (Montenegro) to reach Grec in Albania. The property in Grec belongs to the Lekocaj family (Trieshjan). The owners of this land are my in laws. Your manipulation of our Malesor Albanian history will not be tolerated. http://www.kelmend.info/pics/pdfs/touristicmapkelmend.pdf — Preceding unsigned comment added by Simon Ivezaj (talk • contribs) 18:04, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

• I think that you are wrong. Grec did not belong to the Kingdom of Montenegro in 1911, so I don't think that Red Book was drafted there. Your position is probably based on family myth and opinion about the "international boundary".
• The Montenegro assertion completely corresponds with the events. After the Albanian Revolt of 1911 was suppressed in May 1911, most insurgents fled to Montenegro that again served as haven for Albanian rebels. Ismail Kemal personally visited rebellious Malisors in Montenegro to encourage them to accept a nationalistic program, which they did. They agreed about peaceful solution of the situation with Ottoman authorities only in August 1911, after this document has already been drafted. Therefore they could draft the Red Book only in some village in Montenegro. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 18:57, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Grec and Gerce are the same village. It has two different spellings and is known by both names. Gerce historically belongs to the Triesh tribe (which has been part of Montenegro since 1876-77). The land in Gerce belongs to the Lekocaj family of Benkaj sub-branch of Triesh. There is currently only one inhabited home in Gerce which is occupied by a family with the last name Tinaj, who are renters on the land. They rent the land from the Lekocaj family in Montenegro. Grec/Gerce is situated across the internation border from Korite (northeast of Korite) If you search on google maps, you will see the village within Albania. The village is on a cliffside above Selce, Kelmend, Albania. Grec is the only portion of Triesh within the borders of Albania. The famous tree where the meeting was held is in Grec/Gerce. The plaque is situated at this tree. A natural mountain spring is also located at this site. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Simon Ivezaj (talk • contribs) 19:57, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

I presented a source which directly confirms that Red Book was drafted in a village in Montenegro. This also corresponds with the events, as per my above explanation. Are you able to present some sources which directly support your position that Red Book was drafted in a village in Albania?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 20:06, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

http://www.malesia.org/ojq-labeatet-shenuan-daten-historike-te-memorandumit-te-greces-fotovideo/

At this link you can see photos and video of a commemmorative hike to the location of the Grec memorandum. The individuals in the photos are Malesor Albanians from tribes currently under the administration of Montenegro. The trip begins at the village of Korite which is shared by Triesh and Kuci. From there, Grec is only accessible by foot. Grec is currently located within the borders of Albania. Grec belongs to Triesh, therefore in tribal 1911 it was considered part of Montenegro (due to belonging to the tribe of Triesh). Here is definitive proof. I would like an apology :) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Simon Ivezaj (talk • contribs) 20:15, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

The link to private portal of Robert Ivezaj contains photos of nature of exceptional beauty in contrast to Shqiperie Etnike graffiti. The source I presented is written in 2006 by George Gawrych, professor of history who specialized in Modern Middle East, Islamic World, Late Ottoman Empire, and Modern Military History. It uses modern terminology, not tribal. I also provided an explanation that rebels could not prepare a draft of Red Book in Albania while they were in their haven in Montenegro. Are you able to present a source and explanation of similar weight which directly support your position that Red Book was drafted in a village in Albania?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 20:38, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

I have not opposed that the memorandum was drafted in the village of Grec/Gerce in Montenegro in 1911. My contribution to the article explained that the village of Grec/Gerce is located within modern day Albania. This is evident in the international map of Albania that I provided in the link above. Grec/Gerce was included within the international boundaries of Albania at the creation of the modern Albanian state in 1913. To further show you that Grec/Gerce is the same village, I provided a link to an aticle with photos from an archaelogical expedition by the group "Labeatet" (who explore and document findings in Southeastern Montenegro and northern Albania). The leading member of the group is Archaeologist Anton Lulgjuraj, from University of Montenegro. The photos from the expedition and the short summery of the expedition correlate with my explanations above. I am aware of your knowledge of Balkan history, but at points such as this, I question whether your contributions are racist and anti-Albanian. I feel that I have provided sufficient proof that the village of Grec/Gerce is located in Albania. This is the same village where the Memorandum was drafted in 1911 (at the time, Kingdom of Montenegro). Simon Ivezaj (talk) 16:44, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

After some additional research I can only repeat:

1. There are plenty of sources that Gerche assembly which adopted this memorandum was held in 1911 in Montenegro. The location where it was held is referred to as Gerche in Montenegro by multiple sources:
   1. Gawrych, George (26 December 2006). The Crescent and the Eagle: Ottoman Rule, Islam and the Albanians, 1874-1913. I.B.Tauris. p. 186. ISBN 978-1-84511-287-5. On 23 June 1911, the Albanians gathered in the small village in Montenegro and drafted the Gerche Memorandum, also known as The Red Book.
   2. Kacza, Thomas (2007). Zwischen Feudalismus und Stalinismus: albanische Geschichte des 19. und 20. Jahrhunderts. Trafo. p. 46. ISBN 978-3-89626-611-8. Juni auf einer Versammlung in Gerça (Montenegro) verabschiedete.
   3. An Outline of the People's Republic of Albania. 8 Nëntori. 1978. p. 30. The Albanian patriot headed by Ismail Qemal and a new figure, which w making a name in the movement, Luigj Gurakuqi (187! -1925), gathered at Gerca in Montenegro on June 2! 1911, sent a memorandum to the Turkish Governmea ...
   4. Mikić, Đorđe (1983). Austro-Ugarska i Mladoturci: 1908-1912. Institut za istoriju u Banjaluci. p. 273. У исто време су Албанци емигранти у Црној Гори, на челу са Исмаилом Кемалом и Луибијем Гуракућијем, образложили своје захтеве под називом »Меморандум из Герче« или »Црвена књига« и предали их представницима великих сила на Цетињу. - it does not mention Gerče but clearly says that this memorandum was composed in Montenegro by Albanians who fled to Montenegro and Qemali and Luigi.
   5. Isaković, Antonije (1990). Kosovsko-metohijski zbornik. Srpska akademija nauka i umetnosti. p. 298. У то време стигао je у Црну Гору албански нрвак Исмаил Кемал Bej да би се састао са главарима побушених Малисора. На н>егову инищцативу дошло je до састанка побунэених Малисора у селу Герче у Црно) Гори.
2. Since Grec never belonged to the Kingdom of Montenegro (except for a couple of months occupation during the First Balkan War in 1912-13) it can not be place where this memorandum was adopted in 1911.
3. All actual events support the assertion that this memorandum was adopted in Montenegro. After the Ottomans attacked rebels during the Albanian Revolt of 1911 the insurgents and their leaders fled to Montenegro. Ismail Kemal joined rebels in Montenegro in May and initiated an assembly to adopt a nationalistic memorandum that was submitted to the representatives of the Great Powers in Cetinje (capitol of Montenegro). If this assembly was indeed held in Grec as you say so (behind the positions of Ottoman forces at the frontline?), the rebels would submit it to diplomats of Great Powers in Shkoder, not Cetinje. In June 1911 the rebel leaders were still in Montenegro because they have not yet agreed a peaceful solution with Ottomans (they did it only in July and August). Therefore they could draft the Red Book only in Montenegro.
4. You did not present reliable sources which confirm your position. Link to touristic map or link to a private portal is not reliable source. According to my experience, in-laws are also not reliable source. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 23:29, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

Your logic does not make sense. If you would look at the geographic and topographic position of the village Grec, you would see that it would have been impossible for the Ottomans to attack that position. The Albanian Malesor rebels could obviously not have submitted the memorandum to international powers in Shkoder(under Ottoman control), due to the state of war and the leaders of the rebellion, being sentenced to death by the Ottoman officials. I have posted some excerpts from Dr. Romeo Gurakuqi's book "The Highland Uprising of 1911" in which he refers to the location of the memorandum as "Grece". The site of the formulation of the Memorandum is (Grec/Gerce) which is located inside the present day borders of Albania. Zoupan/AntiDisk, you know little of Malesia and the Malesor people, for if you did, you would not post lies and provocations.

“insurgents' clear and original political attitude, crowned in Greçë Memorandum on June 23, 1911.” “In Greçë Memorandum or "The Red Book", demands for the creation of an autonomous Albanian province, i.e. joining the four Vilayets into one, were approved. Greçë Memorandum was of special importance because it came out of the bosom of the uprising and was permeated by a national character.” “Greçë Memorandum transformed the Albanian question from an appeasing highlander question into a wider one: that of undertaking reforms that were to be applied all over Albania.” The Highland Uprising of 1911 By: Dr. Romeo Gurakuqi University of Shkodra "Luigj Gurakuqi" - Department of History Phoenix Shkodra 2002 Biblioteka e të Përkohshmes Kulturore "Phoenix" Reçensentë: Prof. As. Dr. Nezir Bata, Dr. Paulina Hoxha, Dom Nikë Ukgjini Redaktorë: Tefë Topalli, Willy Kamsi, Kristina Miruku Simon Ivezaj (talk) 04:23, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

• On the contrary, your logic does not make sense. The Ottoman forces controlled all territory of Ottoman Empire, including Grec. Almost all insurgents fled to Montenegro. Actually, Ottomans had strong military forces exactly in that region. If insurgents were sentenced to death, it is unlikely that they could have held assembly on the territory of Ottoman Empire.
• The source you presented does not say that say that memorandum was adopted in Albania.
• Here are a couple of additional sources for Montenegro assertion:
  1. Jordan, Peter; Kaser, Karl; Lukan, Walter (2003). Albanien: Geographie - historische Anthropologie - Geschichte - Kultur - postkommunistische Transformation. Peter Lang. p. 145. ... zeigte, verabschiedeten die Aufständischen unter der aktiven Teilnahme von lsmail Kemal Bej Vlora und Luigj Gurakuqi am 23. Juni 1911 im montenegrinischen Gerce/Gerce ein Memorandum, das den Vertretern der Großmächte in Cetinje ... {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)
  2. Albanische Forschungen. O. Harrassowitz. 1968. p. 176. ... von Ismail Kemal Bey und Luigj Gurakuqi im montenegrinischen Dorf Gerce ein Memorandum, das 13 Punkte enthielt und ...
  3. Treadway, John D. (1 January 1983). The Falcon and the Eagle: Montenegro and Austria-Hungary, 1908-1914. Purdue University Press. p. 78. ISBN 978-1-55753-146-9. Amid reports of renewed conflicts, Albanian leaders met in the Montenegrin village of Gerče on 23 June. Aided by the popular Albanian patriot Ismail Kemal Bey, who had found his way to Cetinje earlier in the month, they responded to Turgut Pasha's proclamation by drawing up the "Gerce Memorandum," also known as the "Red Book," in which ...
  4. Bartl, Peter (2001) [1995], Albanci : od srednjeg veka do danas (in Serbian), translated by Ljubinka Milenković, Belgrade: Clio, p. 131, ISBN 9788671020176, OCLC 51036121, retrieved 1 February 2012, Уз активно учешће Исмаил Кемал-бега и Луиђа Гуракућија устаници су 23. јуна у црногорском селу Герче срочилиМеморандум који је предат представницима великих сила на Цетињу. Меморандум је требало да представља одговор напонуђену амнестију Шефћет Торгут-паше и имао је 13 тачака.
  5. Selbstbestimmung fur Mittel- und osteuropa. 1988. p. 98. In June, 191 1, a meeting of Albanian exiles held in Gerce (Montenegro) prepared a Memorandum for the European Powers requesting »the recognition of the Albanian ...--Antidiskriminator (talk) 08:16, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

I can confirm that what's called in the English wikipedia Gërçe is actually Greçë in the Albanian language. I also confirm that the place is in today's Albania, and it's not an inhabited place, but a field close to Selcë, Albania. The title needs to be changed to the correct name. In 2011 was celebrated the 100 anniversary of the event. In it participated, in a friendly atmosphere, Albanian and Montenegrin authorities (source). Tringellima (talk) 23:29, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

I presented multiple scholarly sources that the Albanians gathered in the small village in Montenegro and drafted the Gerche Memorandum, also known as The Red Book. Wikipedia articles are based on reliable sources, not private portals or testimonies of wikipedia editors.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 23:39, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

The problem is that no source can exactly identify what this "village" is and where it is. Do we have this village in wikipedia? 'Cause I don't think it's even a village, it's a landmark. What source says it's a village, and how come I can't find it as a settlement at all? Don't get me wrong, you might very well be right, I just want to work together to find the truth. Tringellima (talk) 23:43, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

I presented at least 10 sources which explicitly say this village is in Montenegro. It is understandable that sources do not present its exact location because it was probably some secret location rebels from Albania used as their haven in Montenegro. My personal opinion is that it is some location below mountain peaks of mountain Garač (link to sr.wiki text about the mountain). The location of mountain Garac would make sense because it is near border with Ottomans, but in vicinity of the border guards. The mountain is covered with woods, its location is secluded. There are two mountain peaks Big and Little Garač and even a tribe called Zagarač. In Serbian language in dativ case Garač becomes Garč or Garča. Without sources this is only OR and my personal opinion. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 10:54, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

In Podgorica municipality there are Goričani above the lake, Gurec (Гурец) at the border with Albania. According to mythology, Grča is the name of the founder of Kuči, so perhaps this location indeed lays somewhere in Kuči, Zatrijebač (Triesh)? @Simon Ivezaj: make sure you know which user you are discussing with, please.--Zoupan 21:22, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

Greçë vs Gërçe

Greçë is a pasture near Selcë rather than a village. If it was a village, would someone tell me what is the name of the settlement now and to which municipality it belongs to? Ktrimi991 (talk) 00:12, 18 January 2018 (UTC)

I object renaming of this article. It is blatant violation of WP:RM. In the above discussion there is a list of sources that clearly position the place of this memorandum in a village in Montenegro. Ktrimi991 Please respect WP:RM and restore original name of the article and initiate WP:RM if you insist on renaming. You can use the RM discussion to present all sources about Albanian pasture Grece vs Montenegrin village Gerce. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 11:18, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

The location of Gërçë or Greçë is near Selcë

This location which is called the "Beech of Gerçë"- "Ahu i Gerçës" (or Greçë, both are fine but Gerçë is the more official one) is not in Montenegro. It's in Albania near Selca village. There's a video from a mountaineer-cultural club in Tuzi that visited it a while ago https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeNp0Zd3d_g . That plaque you see in the video is the one in the photo in this article https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/bb/Grece_Plaque.jpg . See also: http://qarkushkoder.gov.al/2014/08/31/resurset-natyrore/#http://qarkushkoder.gov.al/2014/08/31/resurset-natyrore/# an official inventory of the prefecture of Shkodra, where this location is listed as a natural monument. Friends, this place is not Montenegro. The bibliography that says so is from English speakers that didn't know the geography of the region or misread in some other source material that this location is in Montenegro - and that's fine this is very small and unknown region - but that doesn't mean wikipedia should take for granted that this place is Montenegro just because someone wrote so. The place is there, you can check it on Google Earth.Maleschreiber (talk) 17:19, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

As side-comments: #1 Both forms are in Albanian, none in Montenegrin. It's not located in Montenegro. Because you know...it's not there (that's a joke). #2 (the serious one!) What someone who isn't from a small region like Malësia writes in a book that isn't about that region specifically isn't more valid than what the people who live in that region have to say about the geography of their homeland. More often than not, their claims will be more valid. Here's also an article from Ndue Bacaj from that very region (you can use google translate) http://www.malesia.org/2016/06/28/memorandumi-i-greces-nje-shkemb-i-rende-themeli-ne-historine-e-luftes-me-pende-per-pavaresine-e-shqiperise/ Maleschreiber (talk) 17:35, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

I read all pf the above and I think that the problem arises from abstraction. A local historian Ndue Bacaj explains: " Greça gjendet në kufirin shqiptaro-malazez, në verilindje të Podgoricës ose në perëndim të Selcës së Kelmëndit. Përndryshe, nga viti 1913 në përbërje të Republikës së Shqipërisë, por tokë e ashtuqujtur dypronësore private e katundit Bëkaj të Trieshit.". Greça is near Selca, but at that time the location (the field) was private, collective property of villagers from Bekaj in Triesh. Now, Triesh became part of Montenegro eventually and Bekaj today is in Montenegro, so that caused confusion for some. I think the source of the confusion is 8 Nentori, the publishing house of Albania in English in the socialist period. It has been a reference guide for many English speakers. (A correction: in a summary I wrote that Triesh is south-east of Tuzi instead of north and far-east in the direction of the Cem canyon.)

I also compared all this with the latest edition of History of the Albanian People by the Academy of Sciences of Albania and the correct location is used in page 450.Maleschreiber (talk) 13:34, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

Map info: http://www.malesia.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/korite-grece-ruta.jpg Maleschreiber (talk) 13:37, 16 January 2020 (UTC)