Talk:Greater Mongolia

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Administrative districts of Mongolia during the Qing Dynasty[edit]

The districts of the Mongols during the late Qing Dynasty. This list is mainly based on Menggu youmuji (蒙古遊牧記).

Regions under the direct control

Inner Mongolia

Outer Mongolia

Oirats

Mongols outside the Qing Dynasty

The above was previously present in Mongolia (region). It amounts to administrative trivia from a period when the region of greater Mongolia was entirely under Manchu rule. It is not obvious to me why this information was considered relevant to the article. None of the red links have much chance of ever turning into articles of their own. Almost all of the few blue links are misdirected to other subjects of the respective same names (usually people instead of geographic or administrative entities).

Since Mongolia (region) is about to be turned into a redirect to Greater Mongolia, I'm salvaging the data here, in case someone might eventually find it useful for something. --Latebird 02:51, 15 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Merge into Mongolia[edit]

  • Oppose, the Mongolia article is about the country. "Greater Mongolia" is a good term for this article's usage. 70.51.8.180 07:31, 23 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

citations[edit]

This needs citations!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yuletide (talk • contribs) --Latebird 08:08, 23 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The talk page, on the other hand, needs signatures (and of course more exclamation marks...) --Latebird 08:08, 23 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

History of Greater Mongolia[edit]

Where are the mentions of the Xiongnu, Köktürk, Uyghur, Kyrgyz, Khitan etc.; the history section of this article is really poor!! Yes, Mongolia actually had a history predating the 12th century!134.100.1.177 13:39, 28 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Of course the history of the geographic region as such is older. But in an article about a term specifically derived from the Mongols, the time before those actually existed may not be very relevant. The other peoples you mention all have their own articles, after all (or at least they should). --Latebird 19:18, 28 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
btw why don't we have a map that include the Buryat Republic and other parts? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.156.8.237 (talk) 01:40, 3 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Because nobody managed to make one yet. Are you volunteering? --Latebird (talk) 22:53, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I added this map; it seems the best we have at the moment, but for the purpose of this article, it probably shouldn't have the old Mongol Empire boundary Spettro9 (talk) 01:22, 24 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Meaning of "Greater Mongolia"[edit]

Quigley: You just turned this article (which is about a geographical region and cultural sphere, akin to how you would use "Greater Manchuria") into an article about Mongolian Pan-nationalism. But if you don't demonstrate that this is the intended and only meaning of this term (by giving sources just for that claim, not so much for the history of Mongolian Pan-nationalism), this edit is pointless. And you did not demonstrate that within that last edit.

Ganaa: Даяар Монгол as equivalent of "Greater Mongolia" seems problematic to me. Would you confirm the definition given on Mongolian Wikipedia: "Даяар Монгол гэж Монгол угсаатны нийтлэг, Даяар Монгол нутаг гэж тэдний оршин суудаг газар нутгийг илэрхийлнэ. Үүнд Монгол Улс, Өвөр Монголын Өөртөө Засах Орон, Бүгд Найрамдах Буриад Улс, Халимаг зэрэг угсаатан ястны улс гүрэн, нутаг орон багтана." That would be Mongolia and its diaspora. Similarly, this is what the use of "Даяар Монгол" for a Mongolian journal in the US implies. This might even be meant by the fascist organization of the same name that does not strive for a pure Mongolian culture, but for a pure Khalkha culture, thereby tending to exclude Inner Mongolians as bastards (even though they don't have any clue about Mongol culture in a historical perspective).

G Purevdorj (talk) 12:22, 3 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I don't care for that organisation. This phrase is much older than that organisation. I have no idea about the values or goals of that organisation cause simply I'm not interested in it. Anyway, once it has happened to lead to such an unpleasant discussion, we'd better live without the template. May I remove it? Gantuya eng (talk) 12:37, 3 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
You don't need to care about that organization. But there are two other instances from entirely different sources that both point more to a diaspora-included than to a great region meaning. Deleting such information does not seem the best solution. 1. why did you delete the Chinese translation? 2. This article is still linked to similar articles in other languages, irrespective of whether you deleted this or not. G Purevdorj (talk) 13:10, 3 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I am the one who created Mongolia (region) in April 2003. When speaking of "Mongolia" people in English Wikipedia always equated it with the independent state of Mongolia. But my area of interest was Mongols of the past who mostly lived outside of the modern state, and I needed an article for Mongolia in a broader sense. Mongolia (region) was turned a redirect by Latebird (talk · contribs) in May 2006[1]. And accordingly, I used Greater Mongolia in various articles. In November 2011 Quigley (talk · contribs) turned Mongolia (region) into a redirect to Mongolian Plateau, claiming that it was "better redirect"[2]. In my opinion, this change is not better but actually disastrous because I nearly always talk about history, not natural science. Whichever the article title be, I need an article for Mongolia in a broader sense to discuss history. It looks like Quigley (talk · contribs) attempts to exterminate that concept and to label it as an irredentist idea. Of cource I oppose this plot. I will turn Mongolia (region) back to a redirect to Greater Mongolia. --Nanshu (talk) 12:29, 17 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I just redirected to Greater Mongolia again. As far as my understanding is concerned, it does not matter which of the two articles contains the text and which is the redirect.
Qingley replaced the term "Greater Mongolia" in a number of articles. He usually argued that his/her replacement was more precise, and in most (but not all) of the cases I reviewed I could understand her/his argument and did not revert. G Purevdorj (talk) 14:56, 17 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
G Purevdorj, you ask for sources to corroborate the pan-nationalist meaning of 'Greater Mongolia'. There were quite a few in my version of the Greater Mongolia page, but here are some more that use the term explicitly:
  • Dorjjugder, Munkh-Ochir (2003). "Correlation of Identity and Interest in Foreign Policy: Implications for Mongolia (Master's Thesis)" (Document). Naval Postgraduate School. p. 69. Japan indirectly encouraged the rise of the Pan-Mongolist movement. It backed the so-called "Semënov clique" in establishing an alternative Pan-Mongolian government and pushed through to establish a unified Mongolian state, comprising Outer Mongolia, Inner Mongolia, and Buryat Mongolia. This regime even attempted to send its delegation to the Versailles Conference. However, considering preservation of the autonomous government as a priority over risking its de facto independence by pursuing the near-utopian vision of "Greater Mongolia", the monarchist government of Mongolia refused not only to join this self-proclaimed entity, but to extend recognition to it as well {{cite document}}: Unknown parameter |month= ignored (help)
  • Fitzgerald, Charles Patrick (1964). "Communist Strategies in Asia: A Comparative Analysis of Governments and Parties". The China Quarterly. 25: 234–237. With as many, or slightly more, Mongols in China as in Mongolia, a movement for national reunion might as easily bring them into China as their fellow countrymen into a greater Mongolia.
  • Freeman, Carla; Thompson, Drew (2011). "China on the Edge: China's Border Provinces and Chinese Security Policy". Center for The National Interest. 'Greater Mongolia' and Pan-Mongolism... Pan-Mongolism played a role in the political movements that led to Mongolia's democratization. In 1990, the Mongolian Democratic Party's platform included a call to "unite" the "three Mongolias" (Mongolia, Inner Mongolia, and Mongolian Buryatskaya), promoting a vision of a formal political union among these regions and Mongolian Xinjiang with a unified spoken and written language, to create a "Great Mongolia." {{cite journal}}: Cite journal requires |journal= (help); Unknown parameter |month= ignored (help)
  • Friters, Gerard (1937). "The Prelude to Outer Mongolian Independence". Pacific Affairs. 10 (2). University of British Columbia: 168–189. From the beginning, Russia refused to support the aspiration for a Greater Mongolia, which was described by Sazonov as "Mongol imperialism." {{cite journal}}: Unknown parameter |month= ignored (help)
  • Lattimore, Owen (1956). "Satellite Politics: The Mongolian Prototype". The Western Political Quarterly. 9 (1). University of Utah. This and other purge cases involved the important issue of "pan-Mongolism".... [Most] "pan-Mongol" leaders were Buryats, Kalmuks, and Inner Mongolian nationalists, not natives of Outer Mongolia. Representing weak minority groups, they could see an advantage in associating with a "greater Mongolia". Some Khalkha (Outer Mongolia) Mongols were attracted by the idea, but on the whole they hesitated to take on fringe minorities who would create additional problems without bringing in adequate resources for solving the problems. {{cite journal}}: Unknown parameter |month= ignored (help)
  • Malik, Mohan (1995). "Mongolia's Policy Options in the Post-Soviet World". Korean Journal of Defense Analysis. 7 (1): 275–301. The Russian leadership is watching with concern the rise of Pan-Mongol nationalism which could spread to Russia's autonomous Mongol republics of Buryatia and Tuva and could revive the demand for their union with a reconstituted Greater or United Mongolia.... The Mongolian vision of pan-Mongolism is one that leads to the complete reunification of all Mongols to constitute a Greater Mongolia. Apparently, some Mongol nationalists are hoping that as the central government in China loses its control through the decentralization of economic and political power, it would find increasingly hard for it to keep China's minorities in place.
  • Narangoa, Li; Cribb, Robert (2010). "Nations-of-intent: from counterfactual history to counterfactual geography". Journal of Historical Geography. 36 (3): 276–285. Although there was strong support amongst Inner Mongols, especially at first, for an independent Greater Mongolia, these misgivings undermined Inner Mongol support for the Outer Mongol government and contributed to the emergence of a different nation-of-intent, an Inner Mongolia located within the Republic of China. {{cite journal}}: Unknown parameter |month= ignored (help)
  • Rossabi, Morris; Rossabi, Mary (2010). Herdsman to Statesman: The Autobiography of Jamsrangiin Sambuu of Mongolia. Rowman & Littlefield. pp. 7–8. A second development Sambuu mentioned is the pan-Mongolian movement. He appeared to have known about efforts to create a Greater Mongolia. However, internal strife among the Khalkha Mongolians in Mongolia and the Inner Mongolians, as well as tsarist Russia's opposition, doomed the prospects of a united Mongolian state.
  • Rupen, Robert (1958). "Mongolian nationalism". Journal of The Royal Central Asian Society. 45 (2): 157–178. Most indigenous Mongolian leaders and groups desired ultimate union of all Mongols everywhere into a "Greater Mongolia."... [T]he general and ultimate aim of the various indigenous Mongolian leaders and groups was the re-creation of a unified Mongolia on the model of the Empire of Chinggis Khan; these leaders and groups were nearly all Pan-Mongolists, seeing in the formation of "Greater Mongolia" their only chance to stand effectively against their large and powerful neighbors.
  • Sanders, Alan (2000). "Russian–Western Relations After Kosovo: Where Do We Go From Here?". Europe-Asia Studies. 52 (8): 1543–1564. How then is the reader to understand the "Mongolian plateau", this "delicate compromise straddling the bombastic 'Greater Mongolia' and the bloodless 'areas traditionally inhabited by Mongols'" (p. xviii)?... How many countries is Mongolia? Mostly it seems to be the independent one, the former Outer Mongolia and Mongolian People's Republic, since 1992 simply called "Mongolia".
  • Sanders, Alan (2003). Historical Dictionary of Mongolia. Scarecrow Press. pp. xlvii, 60. 1992... leaked Inner Mongolia State Security Bureau document claimed U.S. was planning to create a "Greater Mongolia" uniting Mongolia with Inner Mongolia and Buryat Republic (April).... Chinese publications have made claims that Mongolia wants to take Inner Mongolia away from China to build a "Greater Mongolia".
  • Scalapino, Robert (1994). "The foreign policy of the people's republic of China: A balance-sheet". Asian Journal of Political Science. 2 (2): 20–43. Today, Mongolian nationalism has been revitalized. Genghis Khan has replaced Lenin and Stalin as the foremost symbol of respect. Yet given Mongolia's current domestic difficulties - and its small population - there is scant prospect of a restoration of a Greater Mongolia, the private sentiments of some Mongols in Russia and China notwithstanding. {{cite journal}}: Unknown parameter |month= ignored (help)
As we can see, "Greater Mongolia", as used in the scholarly literature, is not about some already existing "geographical region and cultural sphere" but an unredeemed political project. More specifically, it is the final solution of the Pan-Mongolist fantasy; a return to glory of the Mongol Empire by the annexation of Inner Mongolia and Buryatia, and possibly Tuva and Dzungaria too. A far less common and much more ambiguous use of the phrase is as in this article: a synonym for the "traditional Mongol-inhabited territories", a topic which has another, neutral name. "Greater Mongolia", then, should not be the subject of its own article, but a disambiguation page or a redirect: Pan-Mongolism is the main topic that our sources discuss. We can follow Sanders (2000) by compromising at "Mongolian Plateau" to describe the geographical region, because "Mongolian Plateau" is not as politically suggestive and aggressive as "Greater Mongolia" but also not as mealy-mouthed as "areas traditionally inhabited by Mongols". As it is, this article is poorly-sourced synthesis, with a history section that really belongs either at History of Mongolia, History of the Mongols, Mongolian Plateau, or somewhere else. Shrigley (talk) 04:10, 17 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Hello Shringley! Yes, these references are about what I asked for. They are quite diverse and all support your point. There could still be more culturally or geographically oriented literature to take up the other approach. But if so, I won't be able to find it. Nanshu, if s/he has time, would be a person who could attempt so. If no such effort is undertaken, I completely agree that Greater Mongolia should not have a page of its own. It then should rather be turned into a disambiguation page pointing to pan-Mongolism, the plateau and (as the plateau is not quite as large as those areas traditionally inhabited by Mongols) to these, maybe in a one-sentence definition due to the lack of a respective article. Nanshu, will you try, or should we precede? G Purevdorj (talk) 08:56, 17 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • http://mongoluls.net/mongolian-religion/celeb.shtml
  • When we say Mongolia, we are only referring to the independent country of Outer Mongolia. However, the totality of the Mongolian population and culture is spread over six distinct areas that together are called “Greater Mongolia.” Greater Mongolia also has another meaning, and refers to the ancient Mongolian empire that existed before this fragmentation. The six Mongol nations share a common language and the traditional Buddhist culture, through which they maintain active communication.

http://www.purevbat.xtreemhost.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=282:mongolia-and-greater-mongolia&catid=51:mongolia&Itemid=209

These examples are just among the first 30 Google hits, so it isn't that hard to find. If you don't employ a wenhua dagemin-style definition of Pan-Mongolism (which you might actually be applying, given your long-standing nationalist credentials), this would look like evidence for my point. It is amazing, too, how you aim to deny a Mongolian cultual sphere. G Purevdorj (talk) 07:04, 18 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

WP:Mongols Assessment Commentary[edit]

This page has been rated Stub-class. Though the article Pan-Mongolism deals primarily about the philosophy of a united Mongol heritage, it incorporates the basis for the projected or hypothetical state of "Greater Mongolia". However, there is no article on the geographic region of "Greater Mongolia" listed here. This page is essentially the stub of an article on the geographic region, with a directive hatnote to Pan-Mongolism. If an editor is inclined to write a full article on the geographic region, I suggest that information should be expanded here, rather than on a new page. Boneyard90 (talk) 17:33, 2 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"Historical Mongolia" as part of the definition of Greater Mongolia?[edit]

Historical Mongolia as a possible meaning of "Greater Mongolia" was added by an anonymous editor in early 2014. Now I'm wondering, however, how common it is to use "Greater Mongolia" for an entity that includes historical territories such as Golden Horde and Il-Khanat that have retained neither discernible Mongolian populations nor culture. If this usage is not common at all and no sources get presented or linked to this talk page, I would remove it. Obviously, I am talking about English language usage, not about Central Mongolian "ih mongol" which definitely has this third meaning. G Purevdorj (talk) 09:20, 30 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Greater_Mongolia&oldid=1185263848"