This is an archive of past discussions about Greeks in Albania. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.
The term is really confusing, the historical right term would be 'Northern Epirotes', according to the geographic area that are concentrated. History section also proves that. There wasn't an Albanian state before 1913, and we are starting from antiquity, on the other hand the term Epirus seems historically and geographically (because of the populations concentration in the south part of Albania, a.k.a. north part of Epirus) more accurate.Alexikoua (talk) 20:59, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
I totally agree. The article's title should better be Northern Epirotes (like Chameria=>Cham Albanians, Aegean Macedonia=>Aegean Macedonians). Greek minority in Albania should be ranamed to Northern Epirotes.--Michael X the White (talk) 15:16, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
I have a better idea. Why not incorporate any information regarding the Northern Epirotes in this article that way we avoid confusing our readers regarding somewhat interchangeable names? Deucalionite (talk) 17:06, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
... and that's precisely the logical question I waited someone to make. And it is better to transform this article to one about Northern Epirotes, and including the major points here in that article. I have to mention here, that in the Northern Epirotes category belong the Greeks who come from Northern Epirus and those still residing there.--Michael X the White (talk) 17:24, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
These people have their own cultural identity not only inside Albania but in Greece too. There exist a 200.000 diaspora of them (according to official sources) in Greece today, and many cultural and folkloric organizations are created by them. It sounds a little wierd to call them in Greece 'Former members of the ethnic Greek minority of Albania that live in Greece now' or just 'former minotirity members of Albania'. We need a name that incorporates both the people residing in Albania and the diaspora. I mean why shouldn't we call them the way they call themselves? We can create a seperate paragraph stating the names they are called (the official, and the one that selfindentify themselves). Another solution would be to move to 'Northern Epirot Greeks' like the Pontic Greeks.
Greeks from Turkey are also called according to their geographical origin (Pontic Greeks from Pontus, Polites from Constantinople and Mikrasiates from Asia minor). People of Albanian origin in Italy are called 'Arberesh' not Albanians of Italy, thats because they have their own cultural indentity, history, dialect, have their diaspora and are called by they name they call themselves. It gets really confusing giving the name of a country's minority, without accepting their name which is part of their identity. I believe, if we give an carefull npov approach to the article, we can find a common view.Alexikoua (talk) 20:38, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
Their separate identity is created just because they are a minority in Albania. They are "Epirote Greeks" (term which does not exist) of the northern part. They are just, the Greek minority in Albania. See Greek ministry of Foreign Affairs.Balkanian`s word (talk) 20:56, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
That Northern part, however, is almost 100 years in the other side of the borders and is not just the northern part. Th term Northern Epirus is widely applied. Do not forget that it was at a point an independent that had the exact name, so it is not just a geographical term as "North America" but a geo-historical one. And the term "Northern Epirotes" is applied for those who come from there.--Michael X the White (talk) 21:06, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
Good! So you see it was a region that had its own identity, inside the wider geographical region of Epirus. So, as you confirm, it is a historical-geographical region within Epirus, so Alexikoua's arguments have a basis.--Michael X the White (talk) 21:13, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
It has a basis on the region, that there should be an article for Northern Epirus, but not for the people. If we have an article for every region`s people, than it will be called wiki`s personal pages.Balkanian`s word (talk) 21:19, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
This dispute shouldn't even be about the name, it should be about simplifying Wikipedia articles and making them as comprehensible and accurate to our readers as possible. Having two separate articles discussing the same population is pointless and only leads to confusion. Northern Epirotes comprise the Greek minority of Albania and the Greek minority of Albania constitutes Northern Epirotes. Period. It doesn't matter how many years Northern Epirus was autonomous, the name itself was used way before the advent of modern Balkan-induced identity politics. Even though official names of regions and populations are helpful, it is our job as users to keep things simple. We can't have separate articles talking about the same thing just because one of them has to show an official name while the other has to show an unofficial name. It's all bureaucratic bullshit that is unnecessary in improving articles and improving the quality of the overall community.Deucalionite (talk) 17:00, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
But thats the problem 'Greek minority in Albania' does not equals with 'N. epirotes'. How should we call the Diaspora? 'x Greek minority of Albania? There are at least 200.000 people that live outside Albania now. And how should we call the people that lived before the creation of the Albanian state in this region (1913)?
There is a list of notable personalities in the 'N epirus' article, that in my opinion should be in an article like this, and not 'N. epirus'. But many of these personalities were either diaspora or lived before 1913.
On the other hand I dont understand why the article inst called 'Ethnis Greeks of Albania' but 'Greek minority of Albania' term that is closely related with the Greek minority zone of the 99 villages (something that has no legal basis according to the Albanian constitution according to Helsinki watch)Alexikoua (talk) 18:05, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
(talk) 15:47, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
Suppose to move it 'Greeks in Albania' like ' Macedonians in Albania', is a possible solution. We will include then a paragraph explaining, who are included in this term and how they are named by every side, both official and unofficiallyAlexikoua (talk) 11:50, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
Personally, I think we should keep things simple. Keep the name as stated by the Greek Ministry of Foreign Affairs and incorporate a paragraph stating the term "Northern Epirots" and how this term is frequently used in Greece. Deucalionite has some good points in this discussion. Pel thal (talk) 19:23, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
For the last time, just give me your citations, not assumptions my friend. INLINE CITATIONS, for this totally biased aproach that you have. And you have made 5 reverts till now in this page.Balkanian`s word (talk) 14:21, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
'The new Albanian migration' in Nicola May, read Gregoric too. I was sure you didn't read the sources.Alexikoua (talk) 14:33, 10 March 2009 (UTC
I've add it in F.Ps.
According to your approach the 'Cham Albanians' article should be deleted, its doesnt' state pages nowhere in the sources. Alexikoua (talk) 14:38, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
Reading the New Albanian migration, pp.66 it says nothing that Vlachs were Greeks. It is quite clear by saying that "For the ottoman empire, being greek meant that the subject were also an Orthodox Christian. Thus, Orthodox Albanians, Vlachs, and other smaller ethnic groups were classified as Greeks.....In reality the ethnocultural history of the region was much more complex and fluid".
Greek communities in Albania? What on hell is this. I see that you created this page only in order to copy Albanian communities in Greece, but this isn`t the case. I will let you to make it a terrible page as you like it, and then I will come back, making it npov. Balkanian`s word (talk) 17:59, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
Of course, there should be no article Albanian communities in Greece and no article Greek communities in Albania. Both titles seem political if not irredentist. Politis (talk) 18:05, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
Of course both articles have nothing to do with irredentism. Greeks exist in Albania and Albanians exist in Greece. The problem is that there are no Greek communities in Albania, but only one, the greek minority, or the northern epirotes, or however you like to address them. Albanians in Greece are in different communities.Balkanian`s word (talk) 18:11, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
Greek are the biggest investor in Albania, this has created many Greek communities around Albania, Tirana and south of Tirana. But both titles should be removed.Politis (talk) 18:18, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
The idea of Albanian communities in Greece, is because for sure there is no connection between Chams and immigrants. In Albania there is no such a thing, because Greeks in Albania are all from the minority, i.e. "Northern Epirotes", i.e. hoever you like to adress them.Balkanian`s word (talk) 18:21, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
I think someone here is playing political games here and mixing cheese and chalk. We are mixing immigrant Albanians (many of whom were refugees from the Greek communities in Albania) and Chams. They have their articles, that is enough. It is reasonable to say, no Greek communities, no Albanian communities.Politis (talk) 18:25, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
According to the Greek migration policy many Vlachs are considered omogeneis, we have other community. A third are the 'filogreks' (New Albanian immigration), of unclear origin, but closely related with the official minority. According to 'the alb. new migration', actually the 'filogreks' was used by Albanian bibliography to define pro-Greeks that didnt belonged to the official minority. For example, its says that some villages in Lunhxery were full of 'filogrek'.
These people are called in Albanian propaganda filogrek and seem to have been
powerful enough at some times to force pro-Albanian families to leave Lunxhëri. It the
interwar period for instance, the village of Selckë is said to have been ‘full of filogrek’
Religion, as a criterion of classification, automatically places all the Albanian Aromanians, and also
those people who call themselves Albanian Orthodox, into the „Greek minority.“
Actually reading carefully new alb migr. its says the opposite. de rapers conclusions are clear, although lunxhotes are told greeks by others, being a lunxhotis means "being orthodox (not muslim), albanian (not greek)",etc etc etc.Balkanian`s word (talk) 18:35, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
Interesting titles, but there is an indigenous Greek minority in Albania. Regarding "being orthodox (not muslim), albanian (not greek)", there was a time when Albanian Muslims and Albanian Orthodox were like two separate nations (separate miliets) with separate rights and who fought eachother like the Serbs, Croats and Muslims (Bosniaks) did in Bosnia. So do the Greeks have a right to appropriate Albanian Orthodox as ethnic Greeks? No. And likewise, Albanian Muslims cannot really appropriate Albanian Orthodox as 'brother Albanians', at least until 1914 and, in Greece, not until the late 1940s. Of course we are all comfortable with the reality that, for centuries there have been Albanians in today's Greece and Greeks in today's Albania Politis (talk) 18:44, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
Yes, I an albanian orthodox, was cought by my hand by the albanian muslims and they appropriated me as a fellow "brother albanian". trelokomioooooooooooooooooooo. Greeks didn`t appropriate me well I must confess it. What are this fring theories. When you say "being an Albanian", its over. When you say "being a Greek" its over.Balkanian`s word (talk) 18:46, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
Actually, it says about fluid indentities, some call them Albanian some filogreks. The entire paper focuses on how fluid the identities are ('better than muslims not as good as greeks'), reading all the text gives complex arguements. Did you read about the intermarriages with Greeks?Alexikoua (talk) 18:52, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
Intermarriage with Greeks means nothing. In Albania even Mulsim Albanians are married with Greeks. On the other hand, the conclusion is quite clear. "Being Lunxhotis means being orthodox (not muslim), being Albanian (not Greek)...". The paper says that they are accused as "filogreks", but they are not and do not with this theory. Read the whole paper, not just parts.Balkanian`s word (talk) 18:56, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
If he has a Greek mother and an Albanian father or vice versa, then he for sure may self-identify as an Albanian-Greek, an Albanian, or a Greek, in this case "Being Lunxhotis means being orthodox (not muslim), being Albanian (not Greek)"Balkanian`s word (talk) 19:02, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
Ok, according to you, Lunx. are pure Albanias (what albanian communist propanga says), however we have intermarriages with Lunx. and Greeks. Also the term 'filogrek' is a syntactical error of Albanian bibliograpgyAlexikoua (talk) 19:05, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
No, no, according to me, Lunxhotes (some of them my friends) are human beings, with whom I speak Albanian, as a common language, nothing else. For De-Rapper, they are Albanians, and not Greeks, and De Rapper (aka "new alb migr), is the source for them.Balkanian`s word (talk) 19:07, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
Just as the Vlachs present
[179] themselves as ‘Greek-Vlachs’, most of the Lunxhots and, although with less ease, the
Muslims who migrate to Greece pretend to be Greeks, or of Greek origin, or at least
Christians. It is interesting to note however that, due to the very limited number of
intermarriages with Vlachs and to the generally bad reputation the Vlachs have in the area,
the Lunxhots do not claim a Greek identity through an invented Vlach identity, but rather
directly, through intermarriage with the Greek minority members in Dropull, Pogon and
Sarandë.
Also it says somewhere that Lunx. are from the Chaonian- a pure Illyrian-Albanian- tribe (statement by a schollar from Tirana)Alexikoua (talk) 19:10, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
im not sure what you guysre arguing...the paper shows how identity is constructed in that area.,that chaon statement is there to explain that soem albanians attempt to give 'scientific reality' to the 'autochthon' lunx identity85.74.200.72 (talk) 19:16, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
We had an edit war yesterday, because you said that De Rapper was the best source, and I was just asking where he is. Now he is the worst for you? As for the above statement, he is clear "pretend to be", and later on he is more clear by saying that "Being Lunxhotis means being orthodox (not muslim), being Albanian (not Greek)"Balkanian`s word (talk) 19:18, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
'balkanians word or bw' is right here the paper says that the 'autokton lunx' identity is albanian and seperate from the greek identity some 'acquire' thru intermarriage or the greekvlach identity...cut it out alex lol of course there are greks and greek vlachs like the paper says...just this specific 'autokton lunx' identity is albanian..its a bit like calling greeks of epirus 'ipirotes' and the albanians 'alvani tis ipiru' and not epirotes too here in greece i guess..85.74.200.72 (talk) 19:19, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
"Lunxotes (some of them are my friends)". And so what?? My grandmother is from Souli and we know for good we're not and have never been Albanians, yet you decide we are. Of course, I forgot that people of "Albanian DNA: The oldest DNA of the Balkans" are always based on NPOV.--Michael X the White (talk) 20:56, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
Actually it' s never said that 'filogrek' was wrong a defination, that's your opinion:
'The paper says that they are accused as "filogreks", but they are not and do not with this theory.' You know what you say? Did we read a different document?
that's your personal assumption anyway. I've said yeasterday that there is a distiction about 'Northern Epirotes' definition of the Greek migration organization and 'official Greek minority' of the Albanian state. de rapper says about filogreks (he didnt say that there weren't filogreks) and Gregoric gives the definition of the two terms.Alexikoua (talk) 21:08, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
chaones are greek not illyrians. lunxotes make shit up: "i'm greek but i'm not greek cause i'm albanian like chaones". good time for laughing. 71.172.193.96 (talk) 23:07, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
the text says that this assumption is made by an Albanian intelectual, it is not the author's conclusion, like some others assumptions about national purity.Alexikoua (talk) 00:06, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
yea, but luxotes think they are autoctonos (greek word). maybe they are 'secret greeks'. still think de rapper paper is a glass of crapola cola. 96.225.117.137 (talk) 01:07, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
The concept is that we have more than one groups here are of Greek origin, Greek communities incorporates the official minority, the ones that have not minority rights, also the ones the were exiled in central and northern albania (ca. 100.000 according to minahan) and the helleno-vlachs. Alexikoua (talk) 18:28, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
100.000? The greeks of Shkodra? haha, nevermined. In every case they are Greeks in Albania, and it is a term widely used. Your term is used by nobody exept wiki. Whats the problem with Greeks in Albania? Even Greek minority in Albania, is no problem, because the Greek minority in Albania includes the officially recognized members and the unrecognized members. It is just the minority of Greeks in Albania.Balkanian`s word (talk) 18:34, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
oh no, central & northern albania, mostly Tirana, Durres. I'm ok 'Greeks in Albania' (doesn't change the meaning, like adding the 'minority' term) make the move.Alexikoua (talk) 18:43, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
Omonoia
About the 4th paragraph of the organizations section of this article:
the first sentence is based on 2 newspaper articles Reliable sources per WP:RS#News organizations
the second part of the paragraph is based on the 1994 U.S. Department of State report for Human Rights in Albania, which I don't think anyone doubts it's a reliable, third-party, published source per WP:RS
Are you kidding me? Eleftherotipia is talking about the greek citizienship of the greek minority and Kathimerini about the inclusion or not in the census of ethnicity. They say nothing about crimes.
Eleftherotipia: "Σήμερα υπάρχουν περίπου 90.000 Ελληνες Βορειοηπειρώτες με αλβανική υπηκοότητα, η ελληνική εθνικότητα των οποίων αναγνωρίζεται και από την Αλβανία επισήμως. Επίσης, υπάρχουν και άλλοι Αλβανοί υπήκοοι που τους αφαιρέθηκε αυθαίρετα από την Αλβανία η ελληνική τους εθνικότητα και η ελληνική παιδεία."
Kathimerini: "Η άρνηση των Τιράνων να συμπεριλάβουν στο ερωτηματολόγιο της γενικής απογραφής (άρχισε την 1η Απριλίου και ολοκληρώνεται στο τέλος του μήνα) λήμμα για την εθνικότητα υποχρέωσε τους Βορειοηπειρώτες σε αποχή, η οποία έφερε ήδη τα πρώτα της πολιτικά αποτελέσματα. Στη συνάντηση που ο πρωθυπουργός Ιλίρ Μέτα είχε αυτή την εβδομάδα με το προεδρείο της «Ομόνοιας», ουσιαστικά αναγνώρισε την ύπαρξη του προβλήματος. Στην προσπάθειά του να το πείσει να σταματήσει τη μαζική αποχή, υποσχέθηκε ότι αργότερα κάποια στιγμή θα πραγματοποιηθεί ειδική απογραφή για την ελληνική μειονότητα."
Have you read WP:RS? How can you put as a RS, newspapers, without at least stating that greek newspapers state that.... Of course is not a RS a newspaper with the title "υπουργείο Εξω(φρεν)ικών", and per WP:RS, comments or read it "ΣΧΟΛΙΟ" as Kathimerinis should not be used.19:16, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
this one is a ΣΧΟΛΙΟ and thus does not fulfill WP:RS#News_organizations, which states in bold that "Opinion pieces are only reliable for statements as to the opinion of their authors, not for statements of fact".; The two others do cite greek government officials, so you can not use them as such.Balkanian`s word (talk) 19:23, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
There are 3 different sources that state facts the fact is undisputed by the writer terefore he reports it and then proceeds with his comment - ΣΧΟΛΙΟ. I don't appreciate the way that you are trying to discredit my contributions. I have never made bad faith edits like you are doing right now. Please back off--Sadbuttrue92 (talk) 19:26, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
Back off? I am not going to allow you adding totally biased sources. This just means that you have no source at all, and thats why you add this fullish sources.Balkanian`s word (talk) 19:28, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
On numbers
Cia factbook reports that according to 1989 based estimations the number of Greek minority in ALbania is 95,000. The same as Roudolf. You are adding this number to the population of Greek minority of Albania that lives today in Greece. But this cannot be done, since in 1989, from which this autohrs make their estimations, there was no member of the minority in Greece. All of them were in Albania, and all of them counted 95,000 to 150,000. You cannot add them to each other, cause the members of the minority that live in Greece are just a part of this population.Balkanian`s word (talk) 19:43, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
It seems that their number is disputable. CIA says that they are all 100 000, so it does not acknoledge as right the numbers in Greece. So the minimum is this. The maximum is to be discussed.Balkanian`s word (talk) 20:24, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
About numbers the situation is very tough. The minimum number in Albania is 35.000 (2001) and the maximum 400.000, but both of them are disputed. On the other hand the number of them in Greece (189.000) incorporates only those that still retain Albanian citizenship. So, noone knows an excact number for sure. I suggest to live it that way, unless a rs comes in handy (or a new census).Alexikoua (talk) 21:51, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
Come on, wiki is not about official policies. The problem is that CIA, does not refer actually to the number in Albania but to the whole number of the members of the minority whether they are in Albania or Greece. So we cannot sum up it with the number of the members of the minority in Greece, cause even if they are different numbers, its like numbering twice every member of the minority in Greece, and once the ones in Albania.Balkanian`s word (talk) 21:55, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
According to official data, there are still the 189.000 (2008) in Greece and 35.000 (2001) in Albania right? Could be a nice minimum (224.000), considering that there was not too much migration towards Greece that period from ethnic Greeks (2001-2008), see p. 11: [[6]].Alexikoua (talk) 22:06, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
I don't believe that it schould be maximum, these are official number about the same year (2008), but at least there is a number of them that have swiched to Greek citizenship (Pyrros Dimas for example) not to mention a diaspora (especially the ones that moved before the communist regime). P. Ruches talks about 15.000 famillies in America, but that was in 1965.
Also the number in Albania (35.000) doesnt take into account Himara region (the report gives a very small number in the 1989-most propably does the same with the 2008 estimate- census about the entire Vlore district, ca. 200). I believe the maximum schould be raised more than 224.000Alexikoua (talk) 22:49, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
The CIA estimate is clearly about the the number in Albania only, not both countries. The ~200,000 in Greece should be added to that. --Athenean (talk) 10:30, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
Currently 70,000 in Albania according to the UNPO [8]. 150,000 in Albania according to a 1994 Helsinki Monitor report [9]. And anyway, where does that minimum figure of 35,000 come from, and why give only a minimum figure for those still in Albania? --Athenean (talk) 14:54, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
There you go again with your usual nationalist tactic of attacking any source you don't like. UNPO is of course a perfectly reliable source, and whether or not you use it in Cham Albanians is your problem and not a valid argument against using it here. --Athenean (talk) 15:16, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
Since the matter is anyway complicated, I propose we create a "Estimates of the Minority's Size" subsection where various estimates can be presented and disucssed along with their merits. --Athenean (talk) 15:37, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
To Athenean: Don't let the prefix "UN"- fool you. This organisation is essentially just an association of individual ethnic partisan and lobbying groups, such as, in this case, the OMONIA party. All information on the UNPO website seem to be basically just self-reporting by those member organisations, with no filters against their individual bias and self-interest. I don't see any signs of UNPO doing any independent fact checking from external sources in these pages. So, hardly a reliable source, most certainly not a neutral one. Fut.Perf.☼16:49, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
Point taken, but to my knowledge, the Greek Epirot lobbying groups and ethnic partisans use a figure of 300,000-400,000 for the size of minority. The UNPO estimate is considerably lower than that. --Athenean (talk) 17:16, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
We do not know the population estimate of the Epirot lobby in Greece, USA and Canada. So summing up it may go to that number, i.e. 400,000.Balkanian`s word (talk) 17:19, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
According to this Helsinki Monitor Report [10], OMONIA gives an estimate of 300,000-400,000 for the size of the minority. In any case, that same HM report estimates the size of the minority at 150,000, and I don't see any reason why we shouldn't use it. --Athenean (talk) 17:16, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
Wait a sec, the source used by Balkanian for the lowball estimate of 35,000 is nothing more than an Albanian government report submitted to the Council of Europe. It is entirely partisan, non-neutral, and as such, unacceptable. In light of the above discussion I propose we get rid of both sources and use the GHM report [11] I mentioned above until further notice. --Athenean (talk) 17:33, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
GHM says that "Greeks of Albania", obviously including all the members of the minority (even the ones in Greece). In every case I would not be enthusiastic about using GHM reports (as I did not include it in Cham Albanians), because it is a ideological organization.Balkanian`s word (talk) 17:32, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
An "Ideological organization"? Are you kidding me with this? What ideology? A nationalistic Greek one perhaps? But the HM report was perfectly acceptable to you when you used it to quote a figure of 40,000 Albanian speakers in NW Greece that identified as "Shqipetars", if I remember correctly. Come on get serious. HM is a neutral source, and as good as we're likely to get for now. Besides, it bases its estimate on the performance of the Greek parties during the Albanian elections, so of course its estimate only those Greeks present in Albania, not all "Greeks of Albania as you disingenuously claim. --Athenean (talk) 17:41, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
No GHM is not used in Cham Albanians, because after the discussion held it was agreed that it is not a RS. If you want to use it, than go on, but not for the number in Albania, but for the total number of Greeks. It clearly states "the Greeks of Albania", and not "in Albania", and is based on the electorate of the minority parties, which includes all Albanian citiziens, not only the inhabitants of Albania.Balkanian`s word (talk) 17:46, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
Ofcourse there should be a maximum number, if there exists from a RS. I am trying to find a RS also about the lowball of the members of the minority in Greece.Balkanian`s word (talk) 17:36, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
There is absolutely no way you are going to convince me of using that ridiculous Albanian government report (written in bad english, among other things) over the GHM report. Sorry, but that's just the way it is. It's like me insisting on using the figures given by OMONIA. --Athenean (talk) 17:52, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
I do not want to "convince" you, and I too belive that the Albanian number is ridicoulus, as the Greek one for the ones inhabiting in Greece, is too. The problem, is that GHM (which I still do not think as a RS) is talking about the minority number in general, as it is talking about the electorate, and the electorate includes all the citiziens. Also, it confort this number (150,000) with the number given by Omonia, 300-400 thousand, which is also the total number of Greeks claimed by Omonia. It also confrotns it with the total number given by Albania and Cia Factbook, so there is nothing to be said about the number of Greeks of ALbania, still living in Albania.Balkanian`s word (talk) 17:55, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
For the second time, the GHM report bases its estimate on the electoral performance of Greek minority parties, so its estimate can only include those Greeks minority member physically present in Albania, as I have said previously and you pretended not to hear. Enough with your κουτοπόνηρα attempts to undermine a perfectly good source. Here's an idea: Why don't you ask FP for an opinion like you did for UNPO?--Athenean (talk) 17:56, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
About numbers, Winnifrith gives 60.000 (2002). Another source is minahan (he shows his sources too) giving (2002) [[12]]: 196.000 (36% of 547.000) and for Vlachs 82.000 (15% of 547.000) (counting them together to 280.000).Alexikoua (talk) 17:57, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
No, you do not hear. Every Albanian citizien is a member of the electorate, not the inhabitants. Albanian citiziens living in Greece, form too part of the electorate. Alewxikouas source is not Winfrieth it is "Encyclopedia of the stateless nations". A tertiary source, WP:RS.Balkanian`s word (talk) 18:00, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
The GHM report explains in excellent detail how it arrives at the estimate of 150,000. Your point is silly, as you pretend not to undertstand how the GHM arrived at its estimate.--Athenean (talk) 18:06, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
Are you kidding me? GHM sates on numbers the total number pretended by ALbania, the total number pretended by CIA, the total number pretended by Greeks, and is .... estimating only a partial number of it?Balkanian`s word (talk) 18:08, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
"Calculations based on the electoral behavior of the minority party Human Rights Union in the March 1992
parliamentarian elections and in the July 1992 local elections leads us to intermediate estimations. In fact, in the
above-mentioned elections, the Human Rights Union took 49,000 votes in the parliamentarian ones and 56,000
in the local ones, despite the lower participation in the latter. These votes correspond to a 3%-4% of the total
electorate. If we relate these percentages to the population (Albania today had almost 3,5 million inhabitants),
the electoral scores of the minority party leads to an estimate of about 100,000-140,000 persons. Of course,
some of the Human Rights Union voters are not Greeks, but, on the other hand, some minority members voted
for other parties (which elected 4 Greek deputies). Taking into account all these facts, one may conclude that the
Greeks of Albania number almost 150,000. In the 300,000-400,000 figure which the Greek side asserts, all
Vlachs and some Orthodox Albanians are obviously included."
As we can all clearly see, the figure of 150,000 is the GHM's own estimate, and it takes into account that not all those who voted for these parties are Greek. It is a WP:RS, so case closed. --Athenean (talk) 18:17, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
And now go and read this, which states that the population of Albania before immigration started was 3,335,000. So in 1994, the population (3,500 thousand) is simply the total number of Albanian citiziens. If you are going to add that, then I am going to erase the members of the minority in Greece, as they simply did not exist.Balkanian`s word (talk) 18:21, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
and that same source [13] states that the number of Greeks before emigration started was estimated to be 266,000 by the US government. --Athenean (talk) 18:33, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
Pettifer may be a RS, as Winfrith too, but there should not be a kakofoni between the total number and the numbers in Albania and Greece. Pettifer and Winfrith as well as the GHM report, speak about 1993-1994, when the number of immigrants was away too small comparing to today. Some of them are counting twice.Balkanian`s word (talk) 18:27, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
The last, is not a speculation, because there exists offical statistical data on the number of immigrants then and now. If we count the 93 pop of Greeks in Albania and the 08 pop of members of the minority in Greece, when in those 15 years, the immigrants were trippled, then for sure some are being counted twice.Balkanian`s word (talk) 18:33, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
What official statistics? I thought you HATED government statistics, especially Greek ones. I see no sources to back what you're saying. As far as I know, you could be making this up, so it is a bunch of OR. --Athenean (talk) 18:37, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
Youre making noise as always. Read the population fo Albania before immigration started [[15]. It was 3,335,000 in 1991. In 1994, was 3,500 the total number of albanian citiziens.Balkanian`s word (talk) 18:42, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
The current pop. of Albania today is given as 3.6 million. Considering there are ~500,000 holders of Albanian citizens in Greece, that would mean that if all those immigrants had stayed in albania, the population today would be 4.1m , and that would not even include the large numbers of immigrants to Italy and other places. I don't think that Albanians are such prolific breeders. In any case, this is all a bunch of BS and little word games. We have a WP:RS that gives a figure of 150,000. A WP:RS is a WP:RS is a WP:RS. You can twist whichever way you like, the fact remains. --Athenean (talk) 18:46, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
Look Cia factbook of 1994. It says that the population of Albania is 3,374,085 and the Net migration rate: -5.27 migrant(s)/1,000 population. With 1,21% population growth. Sum them up and you`ll see the total number of albanian citiziens.Balkanian`s word (talk) 19:02, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
Based on CIA factbook 1992-1993-1994-1995 growth rates, 1,8-1,21, Albanian citiziens were 3,515,987 in 1995, while the inhabitants of Albania 3,374,085. So GHM clearly speaks about the total number of the members of the minority. FULLSTOP.Balkanian`s word (talk) 19:14, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
You are deep, deep into OR territory with these bizarre mathematical games. The GHM report is clear: Its estimate is based on the electoral performance of Greek minority parties, therefore your argument is void. GHM is a reliable source, and it explains the method it used to arrive to this estimate in crystal clear terms. Untill a better source is found, we go with this. Fullstop. --Athenean (talk) 22:04, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
Also, according to the US Library of Congree country profile on Albania, according to a US government study, the pre-migration number of Greeks in Albania was estimated at 266,000. Thus a figure of 150,000 left in Albania by 1994 seems very reasonable. --Athenean (talk) 22:08, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
No, because as you say Its estimate is based on the electoral performance of Greek minority parties, and the right to vote has every single Albanian citizen, ofcourse including those immigrants. Why then, the GHM report, confront this number (150,000), with the number given by Omonia (400,000) which includes all members of the minority?Balkanian`s word (talk) 22:35, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
I'm geting sick and tired of your journalistic games. You play dumb, pretend not to listen or understand, and resort to all sorts of tricks and mathematical games to try to sabotage any source you don't like. The migrants in Greece could not have voted because they were in Greece at the time, and it would have been impossible for them to vote. Try thinking about that, yeah? It's quite apparent that any figure above 35,000 is too much for you, and you will repeat yourself as long as it takes to have your way. I'm sick of repeating myself, and it's getting late. The GHM report is crystal clear. 150,000 in Albania as of 1994. I have said all I've had to say and will now let other users comment. --Athenean (talk) 22:53, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
Where do you find these? Don`t you know that immigrants can vote in embassies? But in Albania the case is even more clear. read this: "One of the election's more interesting controversies centered around allegations that Greek activists had brought 40 busses of Albanian emigrants living in Greece back to vote in favour of the Greek minority candidate running in Himara."Balkanian`s word (talk) 23:24, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
How did I missed that? You`re far away out. "Calculations based on the electoral behavior of the minority party Human Rights Union in the March 1992 parliamentarian elections and in the July 1992 local elections leads us to intermediate estimations". In 1992, was the first year of migratory process from Albania my friend. Per CIA :
According to this US Library of Congress country study [17], a US government estimate of the number of Greeks in Albania before 1991 was around 266,000. So 150,000 still in Albania and 100,000 in Greece by 1994 seems perfectly reasonable, and definitely more so than your contorted mathematical games. The main problem for you is that you do not have a single source except that unacceptable Alb. government report to the COE, which I am going to remove on the grounds that it is not a WP:RS. So take your pick: Either the GHM report, or the LOC study. But there is just no way we are going to go with a highly partisan Albanian government report written in crappy english and filled with questionable statistics. --Athenean (talk) 12:04, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
GHM report, which I insist that I do not think is a RS, spaks clearly about the total number of the population. There is no math game in here. Its quite obvious, GHM reports based on 1992, were no immigrants existed, reports based on 3,5 milion which was the number of Albanian citiziens not the inhabitants, and confront this number with other estimations about the total number of the minority. You`re playing word-games, and you know it.Balkanian`s word (talk) 12:10, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
You think the GHM report is not a good source but that your ridiculous Albanian government report is? What hypocrisy. The Albanian government report is trash, and I am removing it. Do what you want, but the Albanian government report goes to the trash bin. Now. And don't reinsert it. Even you yourself admitted it was "ridiculous", so don't pretend. --Athenean (talk) 12:16, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
let me propose something else. All RS that we have till now speak about a population 100-150 thousand in total (CIA, King, Roudolf, Winfrith), while Pettifer puts their number in 200,000. Why don`t we make the infobox 100-200 thousand, without numbers on the countries (just listing them) and create a section about the size of the minority?Balkanian`s word (talk) 12:30, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
I still think that the Alb Rep is ridicoulous, as every state report for minorities in the Balkans, except the cases like RoM and Montenegro, when censuses and estimates on them are monitored by CoE, and other organizations.Balkanian`s word (talk) 12:32, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
I think your proposal makes sense. People constantly move between the two countries, and it is impossible to pin down the exact number in each country, as it constantly changes. So I think it is a good idea. BTW, as maximum, I would use the LOC study [18]--Athenean, which is also neutral and reliable. (talk) 12:38, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
I have no problem about the number (i.e. 266,000). I think there would be other sources to have that. But, I would avoid LoC, no because it is not reliable, but because the flip-flop of American Government position, which went from 8 per cent to 3 per cent in one year (after the fall of communism). Per WP policy the newest version should be used.Balkanian`s word (talk) 12:48, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
Again
I dont see why not mention the estimates by Northern Epirote organizations adopted by Minahan (280.000), excactly same situation whith Chams and Vickers. It has a logical basis counting only the 189.000 that are considered omogeneis in Greece, plus the Vlachs (self called HellenoVlachs)Alexikoua (talk) 09:58, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
2. The fact that Vlachs selfdecalare as Helleno-Vlachs should not be generalized. Not all Valchs of Albania (only a minority) self-declare as Greeks.
3. the 189.000 that are considered omogeneis in Greece does not mean that all of them are Greeks (some pretend to be ref De Raper ref
4. I have no problem with the number itself (280,000), as an aproximate number (250,000) is in the article itself, but it should be sourced. None of those two numbers are sourced by secondary RS.Balkanian`s word (talk) 10:32, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
Are there any Greeks in Korçë/Korça according to Vickers' book?
I searched on Google-books the book of Miranda Vickers & James Pettifer (1997). Albania: from anarchy to a Balkan identity. Neither Korçë[[19]] nor Korça [[20]] were mentioned in that book. See for yourself.Guildenrich (talk) 20:55, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
The source states in p. 187: [[21]], ...there was bitter inter ethnic conflict in the minority region of Korca and Gjirokaster.
Minority region is a region were a minority exists, here the Greek since the specific section in book deals with them. This book isn't the only one that states that about Korca, but it is characteristic since Vickers has been repeatedly accused of being clearly pro-Albanian.Alexikoua (talk) 09:12, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
Rene Puaux' book is so very very pro-Greek, it's not NPOV. Cretan irregulars fighting in the area do not qualify as "ethnic minority". Who accuses Vickers' book of being pro-Albanian. Have you read it all? Guildenrich (talk) 13:22, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
He was Albanian of Greek origin, or else Greek-Albanian. The removal from a "Greeks in Albania" list, including those of ancestral descent as per userbox, is still unexplained. I suggest, in similar cases, you initiate a discussion in order to avoid misunderstanding.Alexikoua (talk) 20:13, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
I don't thing that googlehits agrees, it's not only about this article but the majority of the communities in Europe preffer the title 'Xs in Y' instead of 'X-Ys'. Off course, if it's possible to provide some specific arguments for this removal we can discuss it.Alexikoua (talk) 21:10, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
Thanas Vaja
Thanas Vaja, called by Greeks Thanasis Vagias, is Albanian from Lekli. See [[22]] Those who most confidentially surround his person are Albanians [...] the individual whose influence with the Vizier is most powerful and decided, is Athanasius Bia [...] a native of Lekli. Travels in the Ionian Isles, Albania, Thessaly, Macedonia, &c: during the years 1812 and 1813 p. 196.
Where did you read that Athanasios Vagias is Albanian in this book? It's nothing like that. If someone was born in modern Albania this doesn't necessary mean that he is Albanian.Alexikoua (talk) 22:48, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
Since the above book didn't clarify if he was Greek or not (although only the Greek form of his name is mentioned) there is also this: [[23]], [[24]] and [[25]].Alexikoua (talk) 22:56, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
According to Tajar Zavalani and Irakli Kocollari, two Albanian historians, he was Albanian and the closest person to Ali Pasha, as he was a friend from childhood, but I get those references from blogs so until I read the books, I can't confirm. --Sulmues Let's talk 01:39, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
I'm using copy-pasted books in blogs because in googlebooks Albanian publications for the 1950-1990 period are almost inexistent. --Sulmues Let's talk 23:43, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
Alexikoua books from 1822 and books like "Islamic Homosexualities" aren't reliable. I don't think that I should copy/paste FutureP's reply after he removed similar sources in Ali Pasha.--— ZjarriRrethues —talk10:32, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
The guy is known in Albanian historiography (at least by Zavalani) as a cruel general that would perform a massacre when no one else wanted to do it. I'm not sure whether either Greeks or Albanians would want him on their sides. So far, the only article that I have found is in Korrieri magazine and someone in Albania could find that. --Sulmues Let's talk 16:01, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
Actually he is one of many. Why dont you like Dumas, he is extensively used in Ali Pasha article which you find mysteriously ok and tagfree [[28]]Alexikoua (talk) 00:43, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
George Tenet
I know the title is Greeks in Albania, which I understand as Greeks who live or have lived in what is today Albania. So I simply suggest George Tenet, former director of the CIA because through his mother his has roots in southern Albania. One more point. One hundred years ago, the allegiances between Othodox and Muslims were different, even though they belonged to a cultural continuum. For instance, if they landed today in a football match between Albania and Greece, each would support the Muslim side or the Orthodox side. But if we told them that the teams represented countries and not faiths, I am not sure who they would support. They might even walk out of the match in disgust in search of the cultural continuum. However, in a match between an Albano-Greek team and Turkey, I have no doubt who they would support. Politis (talk) 09:46, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
Epirus, 4000 years of Greek history and civilization
I think we remove all links who cite the book in Wikipedia. In Google books no preview.
The Northern Epirote polyphonic tradition, with links in ancient Greek music, stil alive today, is of considerable musicological interest and merit as a performing act[27]. [Epirus, 4000 years of Greek history and civilization]. M. V. Sakellariou. Ekdotike Athenon, 1997. ISBN9789602133712, p. 418.
This shows only picture below:
I cant understand anything from book. |Says only "and charity associations of this period particulary in the provinces coveredn a wide variety of the peeds of the inhah- of the inhabitants of Northern Epirus is handed down from generation to ganeration through the unwritten."
There has been multiple explained that she is a partisan source. Since there was no explaination for this disruptive addition, hope there is no problem removing her.Alexikoua (talk) 10:43, 19 September 2010 (UTC)
The case was about the paper in general,not about the specific fact. Let me remind you that several administrators expressed concerns about her [[30]] on several parts of her work. So you need to fill a case about the specific fact that Vickers cites since in the past several of their (questionable) claims have been rejected as completely unreliable (foe example she takes material from ulranatiolist Albanian newspapers, or eyewitness accounts of extremist groups).Alexikoua (talk) 11:03, 19 September 2010 (UTC)
By the way I don't see a 'resolved' icon there. Seems this 'rsn' concensus is again part of the typical misinformation attempts (both here and irc).Alexikoua (talk) 11:07, 19 September 2010 (UTC)
There was a concensus on 'On numbers' section of the current talkpage, actually the number reflects populations that life both in Greece and Albania after the collapse of the communism (in order to avoid double counting them): so even if Vickers would be considered wp:rs, this claim can't be added unless we add the number that has been moved to Greece after 1989 (we will have serious problems on this occasion as stated on the above section).Alexikoua (talk) 11:46, 19 September 2010 (UTC)
You have to read this discussion and the 'on number' section concensus. Please feel a specific case, since she has been rejected [[32]] by several administrators on several specific parts in the past, apart from ignoring previous double counting issues on 'On numbers' section. Alexikoua (talk) 12:18, 19 September 2010 (UTC)
Typical instant reverts
I was reverted in zero time with this explanation [[33]]. However I don't see why this can by justified 'research made by a Greek', actually the source says 'according to official data'. So far the only official data is the 1989 census conducted by a totallitarian regime and which is highly questioned.
It's really sad we have to recycle the same discussions again and again but we can't avoid blind revert strategies by specific members.Alexikoua (talk) 20:25, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
(I was not the one instant reverting without initiating a discussion if you mean that). In case you revert please use the ref properly since it lacked all essential info (page for example) [[34]], and this can be easily misunderstood "According to Albanian official sources, the non-Albanian population consists of sixty thousand Greeks" is also part of this document.Alexikoua (talk) 20:47, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
Alexikoua is right. From the source provided: According to Albanian official sources, the non-Albanian population consists of sixty thousand Greeks. There is no in-text citation to verify this, hence I will revert it per WP:RS. A Macedonian, a Greek. (talk) 20:52, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
I am under advisement to apologise for the misplaced revert earlier, of Alexikoua's edit, which was incorrectly marked by myself as vandalism. It was not a vandal edit, and I apologise for offence caused to the editor concerned, and others working on this article.BarkingFish21:19, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
Please read further in [35]. Sixty thousand is brought up as a figure twice, both as a number cited by the communist government AND by another study (Koloumbys Veremis Nikolakopoulos, O Elenismos tis Alvanias (Sideris, Athens, 1995)). Spyenson (talk) 21:38, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
Agree with Spyenson. The misunderstanding was created because the ref lacked details (page and in this case quote, since the '60.000' claim is stated twice). However, per long established consensus this line also includes population that moved to Greece after 1989 (not only Albania), as the infobox says (in order to avoid double counting since most of the Northern Epirotes have dual citizenship).Alexikoua (talk) 21:47, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
When does it become outdated? The reference used to cite the high number was published in 2000. Further, the CIA data is based on 1989 government figures (6 years older, and by your side of the argument's opinion, more biased than the source I am proposing).Spyenson (talk) 21:59, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
The original study was published from 1995, the CIA factbook is from 2010. It gives a figure of 3% out of a population of 2,986,000, or approximately 90,000. Do you have any basis for claiming the 2010 factbook is based on the 1989 census (which was actually 58,000 or 59,000)? I certainly don't see how that can be. 1995 is not ancient, but 2010 is certainly preferable. Athenean (talk) 22:02, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
Since the number now does not include the population that moved to Greece after 1989 [[36]] (per past concensus), I guess it's not problem to add the recent estimates of Northern Epirotes that live in Greece.Alexikoua (talk) 11:05, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
(unindent)You can't add the same population twice, because a higher estimate of c. 200,000 can't exist in both countries without mentioning the fact that you don't even know how many people don't have Albanian citizenship anymore. Btw I may ask for uninvolved intervention.--— ZjarriRrethues —talk11:18, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
twice? I'm sorry but you are extremelly oring now. Please use references in what you claim, wp:own is very disruptive: its the second 'instant revert' you perform in 24h here not to mention the irc attempt to deceive the community.
It's not a revert, it's a new version and please don't make npa violations. Btw you had added the source of University of Koln saying that up to 70% of the minority lives in Greece [37] so I'm not making any or deductions.--— ZjarriRrethues —talk11:27, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
You still need to prove that 60k is the minimum in both Greece and Albania, which is completely wrong since 189k are counted only in Greece. Also as Barjaba says the 60k number is counted only in Albania so we have a min of 189+60 which was the version that was blindly reverted without still a single argument (seems we just have an extreme wp:own and wp:or activity with irc misiformation attempts claiming that my edits are vandalism: no wonder BarkingFish who was misiformed in irc apologized about this [[38]]).
(unindent)I never said that you were vandalizing and as for irc activity admins have told me about your attempts to get me banned as a sock when I signed up. You added the same estimations twice so please don't make or deductions about them. Btw per RSN we should also include the 40,000 estimation of Vickers.-— ZjarriRrethues —talk12:23, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
Suppose this means you still haven't an argument for this [[39]] and you want to change the subject (added the estimation twice? I dont thing so please be carefull on this instant reverting strategy, it reveals a highly extremistic nature).Alexikoua (talk) 12:33, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
You added the same figure twice because as you know the 200,000 doesn't include only people registered in Albania and your 189,000 also doesn't include only people registered in Greece. One source says 60,000, another 200,000 without including only Albania so there's no mistake in the current estimates. Btw since 2001 many of these people denounced their Albanian citizenship and Vickers is the latest estimate.--— ZjarriRrethues —talk12:41, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
Very nice, what you claim now is diferrent from the version you supported: '200k doesnt include only Albania and 189k not only Greece', this makes the 'minimum' 200k in both countries (or 189k if the number in Albanian varies from 60 to 200). That's called simple mathematics.Alexikoua (talk) 13:56, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
(unindent)It's not different because I didn't change the highest estimate. The highest estimate is c.200k only when used for both countries. Of course in a few months all estimates will be removed since data on ethnicity will be collected.--— ZjarriRrethues —talk14:29, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
Unfortunately wikipedia isn't a Crystal ball. Also per simple mathematics minimum is 189k. Suppose if you don't provide an argument on why you put the minimum in both countries in 60k (instead of 189k), I'm sorry but this has to be corrected.Alexikoua (talk) 14:37, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
(unindent)Please don't make or deductions about a minimum being 189k, when even Greek scholars say that it's about 60k. Btw if you don't any other source except for the partisan source of Ruches for the 15k in the USA I'll remove it per WP:RS. Of course crystal ball doesn't refer to EU funded and scheduled events. Your up to 189k in Greece can't be on the article at the same time with the up to 200k in Albania. --— ZjarriRrethues —talk14:47, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
You seem to ignore that this is the number in both Greece and Albania(as you said: 'when even Greek scholars say that it's about 60k' which is about Albania only). So suppose you are still without a single argument and need to change the subject in any way possible (Albanian census of 2011, Ruches etc...)Alexikoua (talk) 14:59, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
(unindent)Alexikoua you're insisting on one or deduction and I'm trying to explain to you why you can't add two c.200k estimates. Btw I'll remove Ruches partisan estimates if you don't have another source.--— ZjarriRrethues —talk15:04, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
To sum up:
In Albania
In Greece
Greece+Albania (double counted)
Greece+Albania (not double counted)
Zjarri's claim
60k-200k
189k
189k-200k
249k-389k
60k-200k
It's easy to understand that the last option is out of reality. So, I'm waiting for third part input. Also there is no source that claiming that Northern Epirotes were counted both as living in Greece and Albania (column 3 needs a source, else we have col. 4)Alexikoua (talk) 15:16, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
You can't include two similar estimates for both countries. Btw a third opinion is needed but not by a Greek or an Albanian user. Incidentally this c.400k estimation of yours is what Greek nationalist organizations claim. --— ZjarriRrethues —talk15:21, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
Actually you were the one that insisted in this 'both countries estimates' by instant reverting [[40]]. Also the sum in the total numbers you 'restored' is also wrong (and Greek nationalists claim that 400k Greeks live in Albania, so plz avoid this oring concert since you have no arguments to present so far).Alexikoua (talk) 15:27, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
(unindent)389k. is c.400k, so you're actually trying to add the opinions of Greek nationalists. Btw I created a new version and you can't add same estimations twice. Alexikoua take this to RfC and try getting a consensus, since you want another opinion.--— ZjarriRrethues —talk15:35, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
Actually you are the one that has to go to rfc since you are recently obsessed in adding this extreordinary estimate. Guess you need a good luck since not a single argument is presented so far (now you misuse what Greek nationalist organization claim which is irrelevant with this discussion)Alexikoua (talk) 15:40, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
If we're going to lump the populations in Greece and Albania together, then the 60,000 figure has to go, because that includes only the ones in Albania. Athenean (talk) 17:34, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
Though including the numbers of Greeks-who-have-ancestry-in-the-area-which-is-now-Albania-but-live-in-Greece-or-somewhere-else is clearly not ideal for a page with the title of Greeks in Albania rather than Greeks of Albania (or perhaps I should make a page for Russians-who-have-ancestry-in-the-area-which-is-now-Poland-but-now-live-in-America), I think the combined figure offers a more accurate picture to those unfamiliar with the subject; namely that the statistics from both Greek, Albanian, and third-country organizations and governments are often disputed and that the figure is ambiguous at best. I know this hardly seems like a good compromise, but i think the current version more accurately depicts reality. Cheers. Spyenson (talk) 22:50, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
Kosmas the Thesprotian
He was born in a village with a similar name in modern Anatoli municipality [41]. Btw I was sure that he definitely wasn't born in modern Albania, because I've had the chance to see some of his maps, in which the term Chameria is used.--— ZjarriRrethues —talk22:42, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
It doesn't say municipality. Also the only village in Epirus region called Georgoutsates is in Dropull (also read the relevant talkpage in which I give additional refs and explanations).Alexikoua (talk) 12:46, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
The only village in modern times but the Pandektis which is the only RS mentions that this one is found in the modern Anatoli municipality. I'm going to ANI if you continue this WP:IDHT activity ignoring even Greek official sources. Btw that isn't an official page, but a blog of a small association of less than 30 members living in Athens. --— ZjarriRrethues —talk14:08, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
Dear Zjarri.: there is no Georgoutsates in Anatoli municipality, Anatoli municipality is a suburb of Ioannina [[42]]. As I've said Pandektis doesn't specify that this is the Anatoli you mean (you obviously misintrpreted pandektis) which is also a common placename (we have even place Anatoli in Crete). Also when someone posts gentle msgs in your talkpage and you just remove them this reveals an extreme nature.Alexikoua (talk) 15:14, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
Pandektis: Georgoutsates, Thesprotia. Regardless of any of your or deductions(ana says in Epirus, which Thesprotia belongs too), it doesn't say Georgoutsates of another place and Thesprotia definitely isn't in Albania. As for the messages in my talkpage I have left a message on your talkpage some months ago telling you that policy allows me to ask you not to leave messages on my talkpage, which is what I have asked you to do. Btw Pandektis lists their birthplace at their time, even if it doesn't exist in modern times, which has already been explained.--— ZjarriRrethues —talk16:09, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
There is no "Georgoutstates" anywhere in Thesprotia municipality. Have you considered the possibility that Pandektis could be wrong? There is only one Georgoutsates, and that is the one in Dropull. Athenean (talk) 18:56, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
Actually pandektis isn't wrong at all: the historic-geographic region of Thesprotia doesn't coincide with the modern Thepsrotia Prefecture. User:Balkanian's Word had made a very detailed description of this issue in the past (which is sourced here: [[43]]). And no wonder 19th century sources (the time Kosmas Thesprotos lived) define the northern border of 'Thesprotia' in Delvine [[44]], this means that Dropull is inside of this geographical definition.
What's really important here is the only placename called Georgoutsats/Jorgucat in Epirus is in Dropull, which makes the case more than clear.Alexikoua (talk) 21:08, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
By a quick look in google seems we have plenty of material, for example this part [[45]] (published by one of the most reliable publishing houses in Greece) says about the 'Northern Epirote' Kosmas Thesprotian.Alexikoua (talk) 21:35, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
Alexikoua I know what the commercial nationalist website e-istoria is, so please don't attempt to say that it's a reliable source when it claims that all Albanians, Macedonians, Aromanians, Bulgarians etc. are direct descendants of ancient Greeks speaking other languages and that modern Greeks are 100% descended from ancient ones quoting a fringe author like Aris Poulianos. Pandektis says Thesprotia Alexikoua and you're IDHTing, so I'll ask for other opinions. Btw is there a contact option on Karipidis blog? He has spelled the word ethnikoapeleytherotiko without omega[46].--— ZjarriRrethues —talk22:20, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
Zjarri: still not a single argument. By the way Livanis publishing is of top quality and far from considered nationalistic (what you claim is unfortunately completely irrelevant with the topic).Alexikoua (talk) 22:34, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
(unindent)You brought that nationalist source and Karipidis's blog e-istoria has copy/pasted texts from all kinds of fringe authors. As for arguments: Pandektis says that that village was in Thesprotia and there's no rs saying the opposite.--
To say it simple: there is/was never a village called Georgoutsates in Thesprotia Prefecture (geographical-historical terms which you confuse are not the same with modern administrative units (for example Epirus (region) and Epirus (periphery)). There are several databases and catalogs on net that confirm this.Alexikoua (talk) 14:11, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
Athenean shouldn't remove relevant sourced information because he considers it off-topic. Throughout it is mentioned that Orthodox Albanians went to the Greek language schools, but there must be some context for that, otherwise it is implied that they didn't want to be taught in their own language and chose another one.--— ZjarriRrethues —talk18:09, 26 January 2011 (UTC)
You addition is tendentious and off-topic, this article isn't about Albanians or the Albanian language. Your worry about things being "implied" is proof enough of a tendentious approach. And I suggest you stop labeling sections as "Disruption", it can be considered a personal attack. You have received enough warnings in the past. Athenean (talk) 19:07, 26 January 2011 (UTC)
I see no reason why this should be added here. In fact its completely irrelevant: the article is called: 'Greeks in Albania' and the section deals with Education of Greek in this region, education of 'Albanians in Albania' should be treated in the relevant article.Alexikoua (talk) 19:29, 26 January 2011 (UTC)
That part is essentially linked with the Greeks in Albania, since the bishops of the patriarchate, who were trying to ban the Albanian language were Greeks.--— ZjarriRrethues —talk19:35, 26 January 2011 (UTC)
You can add that information elsewhere, but it is off-topic here. Athenean (talk)
The priests were Greeks and the Albanian-language schools were banned because the Greek church considered them a threat to Greek influence per the sources, so it's not off-topic.--— ZjarriRrethues —talk19:45, 26 January 2011 (UTC)
Nonsense. This article is about the Greeks of Albania, not the "Albanians-that-became-Greeks-because-they-were-denied-education-in-Albanian", which is what you're trying to imply. Your addition has nothing to do with the subject of this article. The Greeks of Albania were educated in Greek. Whether some Albanians were forced to undergo education in Greek because of the Orthodox Church is completely irrelevant. And that the priests were Greek is both incorrect and even more irrelevant. Athenean (talk) 19:56, 26 January 2011 (UTC)
This article is about the Greeks of Albania. Thus what matters is what language they were educated in. On the other hand, what language their Albanian neighbors were educated in is irrelevant, whether it was Greek, Turkish or whatever. There are any number of articles where your additions are appropriate, but this is not one of them. Athenean (talk) 20:43, 26 January 2011 (UTC)
You've just said that this is only about the Patriarchate and the bishops, which were Greek, but in fact you are out of topic here. The addition that just "in region X and Y " many pupils in Greek schools were also Albanians is just enough for a section named: "Education of Greeks in Albania".Alexikoua (talk) 18:01, 27 January 2011 (UTC)
albanian speaking orthodox=Greeks??
Athenean
When you say that this article is about the Greeks of Northern Epirus and not about the Orthodox Albanians too, you are just
lying and u know it very well. The process of assimilation through the greek orthodox church and greek schools were enormus.So if you search for Greeks in Korytsa,you cannot find not even one indigenous greek speaking man (with greek as mother language).In 1912-1913 they were many albanian speaking Orthodox people who intentified themselves as Greeks but i am not sure if they still exist.
This sentence is totally misleading:
"However, in the northernmost districts of Berat and Durrës, the above numbers do not reflect the ethnological distribution, because a large number of students were Orthodox Albanians.[37]"
Orthodox Albanians were also the students in korce,in kolonje ,in Leskoviki,premeti and Tepeleni.If they had ,many of them greek consiousness due to the greek education and church , it is true.But their mother tongue was not the greek language.I just want to say someone a name,just a name of a greek speaking village in korytsa or tepeleni region.
Say it openly , Athenean,that when we speak about Greeks in Northern Epirus we dont mean only greek speaking people but also albanian speaking who identified as greeks. Christakis Zografos was one of them.Lysus.KT (talk) 13:11, 27 January 2011 (UTC)
Sometimes Non-factual and OR in the article
I came to this page randomly, and should note that the article is pretty inconsistent and contains original research.
The over 215.000 estimate in the first infobox (where does it came from?).
Regions with significant populations citing 200.000 in Albania and Greece, then 15.000 (est. of 1965?) in USA
Also why should an article about Greeks in Albania include estimates for Greeks in USA?
Yeah, sources have been cherry-picked and the one about the numbers in the USA is comes from an ultranationalist Cold War Greek writer.--Kushtrim123 (talk) 07:44, 28 January 2011 (UTC)
Everything is properly cited inside the article. Also the infobox states that this number includes "those of ancestral descent".Alexikoua (talk) 20:25, 28 January 2011 (UTC)
Please can someone neither of Albania or Greece affiliations review the article? I don't want to start flame wars. Every single time someone talks about either of the 2 topics affected users (the 2 factions) start throwing stuff at each other. (Like what's happening above) --eagleal02:16, 1 February 2011 (UTC)
Blog?
Removed information on Greek Americans and also old sources (Pettifer), which come from the 1990s. The latest census should be sufficient for an encyclopaedic article, otherwise wikipedia will be a blog. StefanHaurja (talk) 19:31, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
His origin was from Epirus, Ioannina, inside Greece.
Argyrokastritic or Dropolitic?
Does there exist a separate Greek dialect in Argyrokastro/Gjirokaster, different than this of Dropoli/Dropull dialect(s) and the rest of N.Epirus ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Melaneas (talk • contribs) 13:01, 12 January 2017 (UTC)
Per reference (PappasNicholas) there is a wide variety of dialects and dialectal groups in Northern Epirus, even from village to village.Alexikoua (talk) 13:19, 12 January 2017 (UTC)
But here in Greece, issues about our language -including other things like our history and religion- are not that important to most of us nowadays.
Our dialects are dying. The younger generations ,almost everywhere, mainly only learn Standard Greek. Therefore, it will not be easy to find info about Northern Epirote dialects either. Melaneas (talk) 17:14, 12 January 2017 (UTC)
Off course this very part is cited by Pappas Nicholas and he clearly states that the dialect/idiom in question is the Argyrokastritic one.Alexikoua (talk) 20:25, 12 January 2017 (UTC)
Quite interesting Nicholas cites Anagnostopoulos where he studied some idioms of Northern Epirus: Argyrokastritic, Dropolitic, Pogonisio (Anagnostopoulos (1925) also mentions as southern idioms the Greek spoken in Argyrokasto
(Gjirokastër) and Delvino (Delvinë) in Southern Albania, the Dryinopolis (Buliarata) district (?), Pogoni... -The story of pu: The grammaticalisation in space and time of a Modern Greek complementiser, p. 504. link fixed now). To sum up in Gjirokaster district at least 3 distinct idioms are spoken.Alexikoua (talk) 20:52, 12 January 2017 (UTC)
What about the Vurg region ? Of the Greek speaking community a large part lives in the Vurg region consisting of a large plain and semi- mountainous area. Nothing in the article covering this. Best.Resnjari (talk) 05:40, 13 January 2017 (UTC)
See Wiki article: Vurg. In Greek Vourgos. Also see Leonidas Kallivretakis fieldwork (done right after the fall of communism in Albania so everyone still was mainly in their villages) on the distribution of Greek speaking settlements in Albania [48]. Also see research by Mihalis Kokolakis [49] who looks at the spread of ethnic and linguistic groups in the vilayet of Ioannina (in particular see pages: 47-60; 370, 374 [regarding these last two pages Kokolakis research of the archive etc he has been able to reconstruct the linguistic and religious situation in the 19th/early 20th century Ottoman era]). Hope it assists. Best.Resnjari (talk) 09:04, 13 January 2017 (UTC)
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No, Alexikoua [[50]], despite your claim, I did in fact explain the removal in my edit summary here [[51]]. The material is totally irrelevant to the modern minority. We have stuff about ancient times, in areas like Apollonia, blablabla. This is about history. All history (of religion). It has nothing more to do with the situations of modern Greek families living in the areas of Gjirokastra, Himara, etc, than it does with their Albanian and Aromanian neighbors. Therefore it belongs in Religion in Albania-- where I moved all the material. If you want to have an actually relevant section about the role of the Orthodox Church in the lives of the Greek minority and their representation within it, be my guest, but not this offtopic blurb.--Yalens (talk) 16:28, 1 September 2017 (UTC)
The article also deals with the past of the Greeks that lived in the region that's today Albania. Not only with the present situation. The religious history of the specific communities is integral part of the article. Moscopole, Appollonia, Mesopotam are regions/towns with traditional Greek presence. Similarly the educational history is also part of this article.Alexikoua (talk) 18:15, 1 September 2017 (UTC)
Greeks in Albania did not appear there overnight. I think their history, including the history of their religion, is an integral part of their presence there. This article should be expanded rather than reduced. Dr.K.18:23, 1 September 2017 (UTC)
Yes Dr.K. you're absolutely right, Greeks did not appear over night and their (long) history in Albania is relevant to the page. I never claimed that they did, and in fact only a crazy Albanian nationalist would probably. But the way this section was doing it was unacceptable. I will try to rewrite it in acceptable way. It essentially, by placement, attributes Christian architecture in the region to the Greek population, ignoring the contributions of Aromanian and Albanian Christians. Then it manages to imply by placement that Apollonia was Greek in the Middle Ages (dubious, no source on this, surrounding regions-- Myzeqe, Mallakastra, Berati-- were not), and that Vithkuqi in the Ottoman period was (almost certainly false, we have plenty of sources saying it was a mainly Albanian village with Aromanians too). This is extremely sensitive, given especially the role that this sort of chauvinism (ignoring the contributions of non-Greeks in a multiethnic region) plays in modern nationalist and irredentist disputes. Obviously such implications and chauvinism must be avoided. Furthermore the sourcing for the section is crappy-- no page number for one, for example. As for Apollonia, yes this is an Ancient Greek city, as was Durres (sorry Albanian nationalists) and in fact the Ancient Greek history of Albania including Central Albania is undercovered on the page. I will work on this if I get a moment.
For the moment Dr.K., yes I believe a Religion section detailing history of religion is in order. I think something more similar to what they have on Griko people is much more appropriate-- similar situation, after all. I will quickly write up such a section at once. --Yalens (talk) 04:18, 2 September 2017 (UTC)
Thanks Yalens for accepting that historical data should be part of the article. Now it seems that we should geographically trim this area. However, it would be wrong to remove information about monuments, religious architecture where Greeks were part of a multiethnic society. For example you claim that Appollonia wasn't Greek in the Middle Ages (without reference): Hammond seems to disagree on that, not to mention that it was a see of a Greek speaking bishopric.According to Hammond about Greek and parts under hellenization in the Dark Ages. Yalens' response to map: No, this map as it's title indicates depicts the Ancient times, not the Dark Ages. Osswald and other authors have discussed the arrival and presence of non-Greek peoples, most importantly Slavs, across Epirus during the Dark Ages. Notice also however that Apollonia is not in the blue part, interesting.. The churches of Moscopole are integral part since the city had also Greek speakers. I assume you are ok with Mesopotam, Dropull, even the of P.R. Albania authorities would agree on that. Labove's Theotokos church is one of the best examples about Byzantine architecture in the region, it would be not a good idea to remove it.Alexikoua (talk) 08:53, 2 September 2017 (UTC)
"Labove's Theotokos church is one of the best examples about Byzantine architecture in the region," then why is it in this article? The article is not about the Byzantine era in Albania and Labova is a Orthodox Albanian settlement and the name Labova is slavic. Heck a similar thing could be argued that because the Ottoman state was Turkish speaking, all mosques in Albania pre independence could be considered "Turkish" because the Ottomans built them etc, etc. No need for POV. On Voskopoje, it is a Aromanian settlement of which its people considered themselves part of the Greek world over the centuries. Some additional clarifications are needed in for this in the article.Resnjari (talk) 13:15, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
No, I absolutely did not claim that Appollonia wasn't Greek in the Middle Ages, I said it was dubious and that we had no source stating this. The fact is that we simply do not know the exact ethnic identity of it's residents during the time period. The surrounding regions had signs of Albanian, Aromanian, Western Romance and Slavic settlement at various points in the Middle Ages-- not so much Greek. Fascinating map you posted but that details ancient times, not medieval times, and quite interestingly Apollonia's location, in southern Fier district, is actually not included in the Epirus Vetus blue region. Yes of course Dropull, Vurg, Pogon etc are okay and unlike some Albanian commentators I have demonstrated on many times that I think Himara and Narta are fine too. "Greek speaking bishopric" means nothing, as Greek was the liturgical language of all Orthodox Christians. Yes architecture is fascinating, but does it belong on a page specifically about ethnic Greeks in Albania? It's either (a) off-topic or (b) making a subtle implicit claim that Greeks alone are responsible for building such structures, but the region was multiethnic and you have to avoid that sort of stuff especially for historically disputed regions that are still the subject of interethnic discord. If there's any architecture it must be limited to the places detailed above to avoid the page coming off as chauvinist, and sure, compromise, Moscopolea is fine too (I never argued against Moscopole) as there is plenty of sourcing for the Greek presence there (although one must also acknowledge the presence of large numbers of Aromanians and Albanians in Moscopole). Not Vithkuq though, as you seem to have conceded. I'm fine with keeping just the Labova church picture as scenery, it's pretty, sure, compromise on that. --Yalens (talk) 23:26, 2 September 2017 (UTC)
I agree with Yalens about Apollonia. Without a source it is pure conjecture. Some editors in here often make reference to being "precise" and hence in this context too should be observed otherwise its guesswork, POV and original research.Resnjari (talk) 13:15, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
@Yalens: Appollonia as a settlement was deserted during the 6th century. Thus it would be not correct to assume that we had Slavs (or even Albanian/Aromanian) presence that time. A good argument to remove any mention of Appollonia (which lies in the hellenized area per Hammond. Res: unfortunately it's sourced as I've stated) is that the article lacks any historical context of that time period, but as Dr.K. stated that's not a reason for removal but further expansion. As for the rest I fully with your proposals (Labbove, Moschopolis "in" as essential part for this article etc.)Alexikoua (talk) 18:40, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
@Alexikoua, the article on Apollonia cites the Greek presence (in addition to the Illyrian) from its ancient founding until its demise as a city in late antiquity. A new nearby settlement was founded: Pojan and no source to date (i may corrected) cites a continuous Greek presence in the new settlement (it only refers to a Christian one). Its POV having Apollonia (in addition to Kosine and Labove -both Orthodox Albanian villages) in here regarding the epoch of Byzantine rule and the construction of Orthodox churches as being outright Greek heritage (as i refered to the issue in my previous comment). Otherwise Roman buildings are Italian, Islam and all mosques are Arab etc, etc and the classic example in this context that all Orthodox Albanians and so on in Albania are Greek (something which that Ruches source goes on about -i have read and have access to the book), hence the POV is never ending. In any case Byzantine rule only returned to the area sporadically over the centuries between the Slavic migrations until the dawn of the last millennium when it arrived proper. Making assumptions on Hammond is original research based on how other 'experienced editors have gone about things regarding Albania related topics and removal on content - what makes this article special waiting for a expansion that may not happen?. Otherwise we are not being precise, Alexikoua. There is also no page number or inline to double check for Ruches regarding this matter about churches !Resnjari (talk) 19:50, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
Apollonia cites the Greek presence (in addition to the Illyrian) from its ancient founding until its demise as a city in late antiquity. Exactly, you name it: during 5th-6th century as Hammond confirms the city had a Greek presence. As for Labova, what makes you believe that a 10th century church was built by "Orthodox Albanians"? The first Albanians descended there much later. In fact even the first record of Albanians as ethnic group occurred after this church took its initial form.Alexikoua (talk) 20:39, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
Yes i am aware about the ancient presence (and also when Albanians arrived in part of the area when plague wiped out most of the Greek presence) - and lets not forget the arrival of the Slavs in late antiquity. Thing is Christianity reaches Apollonia just as it disappears into history being replaced by a small settlement Pojan. Whats to say that those buildings were built by Greeks? Does your source state this. Where is the precision? Are we automatically supposed to equate or infer that Byzantine everywhere means "Greek" by default? Also what makes one believe that the church in Labova was built by Greeks in the multi ethnic Byzantine state (where is the source stating this)? The village has a Slavic name. As stated previously as examples, everything Ottoman isn't Turkish, or Roman as Italian and Islam as Arabic. No need for that POV. As i said not even a page number or even inline on the Ruches source. Are are editors supposed to guess things here?Resnjari (talk) 21:28, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
Okay, I must amend my position because after consideration of valid points raised by Resnjari. I had totally missed Kosine, which is deep in ethnic Albo territory in Dangelli, and likely had more Slavs than Greeks in the Middle Ages. And while Moscopole is relatively safe from POV along the Albanian/Greek lines (despite some smaller factions of Orthodox Albanians who do like to claim it's "one of their cities" at the expense of Vlachs and Greeks), it turns out that there may have been a POV push against the Romanian view here. It also favors the pro-Greek POV over the views described in works like Schwandner-Sievers', that a "quiet majority" of Vlachs in Albania in fact consider themselves Albanians, not Greeks or Romanians, and resent that some of their Albanian neighbors consider them as not fully Albanian. I had previously supported Moscopole's inclusion because of its importance as a center of Greek (but also Aromanian and Orth Albanian) learning... but for NPOV it seems we would be obligated, as Resnjari noted, to explain the situation with Moscopole, but that would be an offtopic WP:COATRACK. Best to just exclude.
Apollonia: the case for including Apollonia in this is getting weaker and weaker. Alexikoua, given that, as you say, it was deserted, then why exactly is it relevant at all as a settlement on a page about Greeks? Especially when the surrounding area was full of non-Greek ethnic groups (Albanians, Aromanians, Slavs, Western Romance speakers...). We have to weigh its inclusion against the weight of NPOV, and the scale is about to break.
Labova: I had previously supported the inclusion of Labova (e Kryqit, not the one in Northern Lunxheri) only for the picture because it is nice to have a picture in the section. However, it turns out we have a better, NPOV alternative -- Zvernec's monastery. I had also considered the church of Mesopotam, but there seems to be a dispute over the history of the church there. The Byzantine Empire was multiethnic (indeed there were Slavs in Labova who are at least as likely as Greeks to have built the church!) and works on the period have indeed detailed the contributions of Albanians, Slavs and Vlachs to Byzantine society in Epirus, so the Byzantine=Greek equation is chauvinistic. The church is also relevant, more NPOV, and architecturally relevant, so I foresee no issue with this replacement. --Yalens (talk) 04:27, 5 September 2017 (UTC) Side note for precision: as for the "first Albanians descended there" comment, you mean the first attested Albanians. But due to the surviving lack of writings during 500-1100 ish period, lack of attestation does not mean lack of existence. The consensus is not "there were no Albanians" but rather "we don't know". For Slavs at least we do have some vague evidence for the period. --Yalens (talk) 04:55, 5 September 2017 (UTC)
Alexikoua Possible compromise on Apollonia: we could also describe the pre-Christian pagan history of the Greek population, and mention Apollonia in this context. The town had a temple and was (re)named for Apollo, of course.--Yalens (talk) 05:14, 5 September 2017 (UTC)
That's a good addition to add information about the dodecatheic past. Although the important religious sites of Early Christianity/Late Antiquity to 6th century (Apollonia, as well as Phoenice and Bouthrotum) can't be neglected.Alexikoua (talk) 14:09, 5 September 2017 (UTC)
The case of Labova is unique in Epirus for architectural reasons too, one of them is that the dome of the church is the oldest example of circular style dome in Epirus. I admit that presenting the church as "non-Greek" still needs some kind of citation (Labova's Slavic name isn't an argument). The church is also a known pilgrimage site in Epirus.Side note for precision: There was a decent number of historians during 500-1100 ish period, and modern scholarship tents to admit that Albanians descended from north to what is now s. Albania during the 13th-14th century.Alexikoua (talk) 14:35, 5 September 2017 (UTC)
Oh come on Alexikoua, those are really crappy arguments, and you should be better than that. The reason for including the picture was that it was characteristic of the general architecture-- it being unique is an argument to remove it. And then you're trying to shift the burden of sourcing, and misrepresenting what I say -- I didn't say "Labova was non-Greek" I said "we don't know" which is in line with the general lack of info we have. That is NPOV, and that is sticking to verifiability and sourcing-- how could you argue against that? --Yalens (talk) 16:18, 5 September 2017 (UTC)
Oh yeah, and side note for actual precision, since we're talking about historians, why don't we see what Brendan Osswald, a historian who wrote a paper specifically on the demographics of medieval Epirus, has to say. Page 128: "It is thus quite difficult to evaluate the extent of Slavic settlement in Epirus. We have no literary sources before the beginning of the 13th century." Page 129: "As already stated, the Slavic invasions rendered problematic the relationship between Constantinople and the western Balkans. This is why the Albanians and the Vlachs appear in the sources only in the 10-11th centuries, after the re-establishment of Byzantine authority, and consequently why it is difficult to be sure about the ethnogenesis of these two populations. In any case, this is not the place to discuss it".--Yalens (talk) 16:18, 5 September 2017 (UTC)
Although Albanian ethnogenesis is not our topic, however the Albanian presence in s. Albania has to be addressed as the Labova church was claimed as foreign to the local Greek element (or as a purely Orthodox Albanian monument as Resnjari noted). @Yalens: the work you provided states in p. 134: "There is no evidence that Albanians came southwards to Epirus in this period" (middle 13th century). About the addition of Labova church some important evidence should not be overlooked: it's a major pilgrim site among the Christian communities in Epirus. Giakoumis offers some detail on the impact of the Labova pilgrimage in local Greek tradition: (p. 282 [[52]])
The magnitude of the once legendary pilgrimage at the church of Upper Labova is implied in two Epirotan traditions. First, that many feasts held in Epirus are called with the name ‘Labovo’ (Greek version of ‘Labova’); second that tradition held in several churches celevrating the Nativity of the Virgin to call the visit of petty traders and musicians in ther places with the expression “Labovo came’(in Greek ‘irthe to Labovo), allegedly a remnant from the olf tradition of the procession of Labova’s Holy Cross and the old ican of the Virgin... (concluding) It is thanks to its established reputation, however, as well as to its monumental architectural and artistic reputation... that this church was saved from destruction in the course of the atheist communist regime.
I assume that this warrants inclusion in the article (at least at the text). About the preferred picture: although the katholikon of the Zvernec monastery is of great historical value but the architectural features of the Labova church are unique in local architecture (especially the circular dome and its decoration). Another good option would be to have a double image of St. Nicholas of Mesopotam (with its unique style double apse) and Labova, but all available St. Nicholas images in commons are ugly (the only decent one is a black-white pic).Alexikoua (talk) 21:30, 5 September 2017 (UTC)
Okay, how about we have the Labova image with the caption "Dormition of the Theotokos Church, Labovë e Kryqit, a site of pilgrimage {cite}. The present form of the church was built in 10th century and was renovated several times after." As for Osswald-- yes he says "There is no evidence that Albanians came southwards to Epirus in this period" -- that is what I have been saying all along, sources like Osswald say there is no evidence either way. Something being unclear does not need a citation but we have one anyway. No one is saying Labova was Slavic, Albanian or Aromanian-- it is that it was Greek that lacks citation, so the "unclear" thesis must take precedence. --Yalens (talk) 22:43, 5 September 2017 (UTC)
Christianity spread in the late Roman Empire, and throughout much of Medieval and Modern history, the Christian faith has been a significant part of the identity of Greeks in what became Albania and elsewhere. After the Great Schism, Albania was divided between the Western (Catholic) and Eastern (Orthodox) rites, with much of the Southern regions where Greeks resided being loyal to the Orthodox rite. During the Ottoman era, the Orthodox population, to which most Greeks belonged, was treated according to the Ottoman millet system which privileged Muslims and disadvantaged Christians as second class citizens who received fewer political, social, and economic rights. In Himara, during part of this period, the local Greek population were Catholics of the Eastern rite due to alliances with Western and Catholic European powers[1], although they reverted to Greek Orthodoxy ultimately. Kosmas of Aetolia, a Greek from Aetolia in what became modern Greece, traveled across much of Southern Albania in a mission to preserve the Orthodox faith there, and was executed as a Russian agent in the process.[2] Due to reforms in the late Ottoman Empire and its ultimate collapse, legal discrimination against Christians in favor of Muslims was reduced and ceased entirely in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Under Communism in Albania, the Orthodox faith adhered to by most ethnic Greeks was banned entirely alongside the other religious faiths all over the country, starting in 1967, although some private practice survived[3]; the ban was lifted in 1990 just in time for Christians to observe traditional Christmas rites.[4]
Dr.K.Alexikoua Here's what I've got for a proposed replacement section so far, above. I still need to hunt down the citations for a lot of this stuff, but I will be doing so intermittently. What do you think? --Yalens (talk) 04:41, 2 September 2017 (UTC) Side note: just came across something possibly relevant elsewhere on the page, in 2014 Edi Rama became the first Albanian PM to acknowledge the Greek community of Himara according to this [[53]]
In general your proposal is fine. Some changes are needed though: 1. "Greeks in Albania" need to change to "local Greeks" since we are in the Roman Empire. 2. Greeks are located in the south so north Albania is not necessary. 3. The beginning of the Ottoman era should be stated before we mention Himara. 4. The current text should be added in the proposed one +Labovitisa church pic.Alexikoua (talk) 08:53, 2 September 2017 (UTC)
--> "Greeks in what became Albania". We can't have "local Greeks and elsewhere". And there were once Greeks in Durres, the North, actually. And no, I can't allow a text that looks like it's making subtle claims on Vithkuq to stay. If it's reduced to actually sourceably Greek regions like Mesopotam, sure. --Yalens (talk) 23:32, 2 September 2017 (UTC)
I disagree partially with what is proposed. The part that states "to which most Greeks belonged, was subjugated to the Muslim community as second class citizens" comes out as POVish invoking (nationalist) Balkan tropes about Islam and Muslims sounding something a bit right wingish at best -with no mention of the millet system for context. Different wording needed like "to which most Greeks belonged, was part of the Ottoman millet system which privileged Muslims and disadvantaged Orthodox Christians as second class citizens whom received fewer political, social, and economic rights. In the communism sentence remove the first "all" at (alongside all other religious) because it gets repeated and the second "all" is the more important one in the sentence. The rest of the porpsed section is fine. I also agree with Yalens' proposal about "Greeks in what became Albania". Greeks in the medieval period were also located in the city of Vlore which was a multiethnic settlement prior to the Ottoman conquest (see Ducellier's work). PS: Vithkuq was a Orthodox Albanian settlement (i have referenced this in the article on the settlement with Greek scholarship).Resnjari (talk) 13:15, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
Resnjari Fair enough, I've amended the text to was treated according to the Ottoman millet system which privileged Muslims and disadvantaged Christians as second class citizens whom received fewer political, social, and economic rights. Thanks, in addition to the NPOV issue you pointed out, this text is also better as it is more informative anyways with the link to millet. I changed it to just "Christians"; we can't imply that Catholics weren't also affected, in fact many argue that in practice they bore more of the brunt than the Orthodox.--Yalens (talk) 18:24, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
@Yalens, thanks & I'll try to find out the necessary inlines for your proposed text. Moreover, I believe that some info about missionary Kosmas and the pilgrimage site dedicated to him should be also be added.Alexikoua (talk) 18:44, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
Millet system and social classification in the specific region can be summarized as follows: "ethnicity did not play any role in Ottoman Epirus, since religious and not ethnic criteria defined the social group where someone belonged: thus all Orthodox Christians were considered Greeks ("Grek"), while in the same fashion Muslims were considered "Turks"" (Nußberger Angelika; Wolfgang Stoppel (2001), Minderheitenschutz im östlichen Europa, p. 8).Alexikoua (talk) 21:24, 4 September 2017 (UT
Doesn't seem like a good idea to me. The page is about Greeks, not about Ottoman sociology. That (typically post-modernist) view that merely because Ottoman law didn't recognize ethnicity that it wasn't relevant at all, has been extensively disputed (Bulgarian Christians rebelled and made the Exarchate, the Romanians weren't fans either, and even smaller groups like Orthodox Albs and Orthodox Levantines showed resentment toward ethnic Greek dominance of the church; as for Muslims how much Muslim Albanians were "Turks" is of course also an emotive POV minefield in Balkan disputes, and not to mention cases like the Donmeh where they clearly preferred their Sephardi coethnics over their Turkish and Pomak coconfessionals based on housing patterns). and the proper word is "Rum"/"Roumioi" and other clumsily Anglicized variants. Both of these things have seen long edit wars in the past Worse, given that mutual claims of assimilation (Albanization/Hellenization) are an integral part of nationalist disputes in Epirus, having such a statement on top of the "Muslims were Turks" statement is a two-pronged invitation to future POV warring, when it is only tangentially relevant to the page. Both have seen long edit wars in the past. I'd say avoid at all costs when it's not relevant enough.--Yalens (talk) 04:36, 5 September 2017 (UTC)
Kosmas on the other hand, is helpful and relevant. Good idea. I think Resnjari's work on Islamization of Albania mentions some of his actions-- easy copy-paste.--Yalens (talk) 04:36, 5 September 2017 (UTC)
It appears extremely paradox to avoid Ottoman-era definitions in terms of religious-social classification in Epirus (Bulgarians in Epirus? I assume you are kidding if you suggest that Bulgarians made a sizable community in the area). Stoppel meets both ACADEMIC and SECONDARY and offers an in-depth analysis. A section about the religion in an article named 'Greeks in Albania 'should explain who were called "Greeks" in the past. In fact Stopel's conclusion should be stated as soon as we reach the Ottoman-era.Alexikoua (talk) 14:17, 5 September 2017 (UTC)
Epirus did not differ in it's social makeup with regards to the millet system from other similar regions such as Macedonia, Thrace, Moesia, and even the Levant-- same deal, Orthodox were "Greeks"-- but that didn't mean they were considered ethnic Greek, it was just a word used for Orthodox Christians (more typically, Rum)-- so of course these examples are relevant, as they show time after time that although Ottoman law only recognized religious communities, there is corroboration to the arguments of many that ethnic/linguistic identity still played some role in social relations. One thing we can do is reference that all Orthodox across the Balkans were called "Greeks" at least before the Exarchate-- but we can't include the cherrypicked view of one author that religion was the only identity that "mattered" in the region. The only way we could do that is if we balanced it out with the dissenting views, but a page called Greeks in Albania is not the place for that debate (especially when the interpretation of the works of Western scholars to mean literally that "all Orthodox were Greeks" rather than "all Orthodox were given the name Greek" is a hallmark of irredentist fringe ideologies). --Yalens (talk) 15:59, 5 September 2017 (UTC)
About the atheistic campaign there should be something more precise in terms of the Greek community: The campaign launched against religion was part part of the state persecution on the identity of the Greek people; as many of their traditions were closely related to Eastern Christianity.[5]Alexikoua (talk) 16:01, 5 September 2017 (UTC)
Actually Stoppel doesn't claim that Orthodox were ethnic Greeks or that all Orthodox were Greeks or something of the above you claim. His academic research about the religious criteria of social classification is one of the most detailed works on the subject of Epirote/s. Albanian society. I won't object to add additional parts from Stoppel: for example the early Albanian state had difficulties to convince Orthodox Albanian speakers that they aren't any more Greeks as they believed. In general highly graded academic research can't be considered irredentism.Alexikoua (talk) 16:11, 5 September 2017 (UTC)
I didn't say he did. What I said was that saying "religion was the only social classification that mattered" and "Orthodox were called Greeks" without properly explaining this as well as the dissenting views to the latter statement fits too well into viewpoints associated with North Epirote irredentism hence once again reviving the POV issue on this page (not to mention the "Muslims=Turks" statement which has caused many problems elsewhere). That has not been rebutted.--Yalens (talk) 22:39, 5 September 2017 (UTC) also, atheistic stuff, as you have done on the Religion in Albania page already, can be added --Yalens (talk) 02:10, 6 September 2017 (UTC)
^The New Albanian Migration, Russell King, Nicola Mai, Stephanie Schwandner-Sievers, Sussex Academic Press, 2005, p. 68: The unprecedented repression (even by the standards of a communist regime) of religion was a further attack on the identity of ethnic Greeks, many of whose traditions and customs related closely to Orthodox Christianity.
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