Talk:Guillaume Du Fay/Archive 1

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Comment

worth giving his chanson & mass on 'se la face ay pale' a special mention??? (or is its prominence a 20th century artefact?)

I agree - I added a recording I made of Se La Face Ay pale :-) Eric / Asteria

Definitely gets a special mention! That's a great and important piece. Feel free to feed this hungry article... I'm at work right now so I can't dig through my sources at home.  :-) Antandrus 16:14, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I was hoping to find some information about a technique used by Dufay called Faux Bourdon which consists in adding intervals of fourths and 6ths under a writen melody, a direct influence of Dunstable who also used paralel fourths an sixths. The problem is that I'm not sure if the Faux Bourdon uses paralel 4ths and 6ths or just 4ths. Does someone know the answer?

Cha

Yes, happy to help. I haven't written the fauxbourdon article yet, but it's on the way! Fauxbourdon uses parallel fourths above the (usually) pre-determined tune, and parallel thirds below: therefore there are both parallel fourths and sixths. The "tune" is the line in the middle.
It's a bit more complicated than this in its full historical development, but this way was the one most common around 1450, e.g. during the time of Dufay. Antandrus (talk) 00:21, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Thank you so much for the Help!  :) Cha

Addition to References

I've added a mention of the Corpus mensurabilis musicae edition of the collected works to the References section, on the grounds that this seems somewhat like the closest to a primary source as one can get. Please let me (being rather new here) know if there is any problem with this (inclusion, format, linkage, it being mostly out of print, etc). If it is welcomed, I may do similar things with other composers some time.

Forgot to sign. OMHalck 18:54, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Excellent addition: thank you! Antandrus (talk) 04:36, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Dufay or Du Fay?

In the remote chance that anyone else is watching this article, are there any opinions on a preference for one or the other? Grove has Du Fay, most of my other reference books have Dufay. I'm fine either way but I want consistency within Wikipedia (currently Dufay predominates). User:Ockeghem recently changed Dufay to read Du Fay in the article lead (at the risk of a lame joke, if Ockeghem himself prefers Du Fay it must be right ... ) Any opinions? If we prefer Du Fay we need to move the article and fix numerous other mentions elsewhere. Antandrus (talk) 04:01, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

I suppose I would lean toward Dufay, but that has no basis in anything other than what I'm accustomed to. If the Grove-meisters say Du Fay then it seems to me they would know what they're talking about... Maybe there should be a disambiguation from Du Fay to Dufay; that might be simpler than a wholesale alteration of spelling. Of course, following that "logic," we would have the Dvořak symphonies end at number 5 just because that's what people were familiar with. Wspencer11 13:39, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
Not these days, though. How long has it been since the New World Symphony has been described as "No. 5"? Many decades, I would think. When it comes to the spelling of names, we have to realise that there was no such thing as standardised spelling till at least the 19th century. Dufay may well have spelled his own name in various ways, just as Shakespeare did a century later, and none of them is "right" or "wrong". If we're going to pick one version, I'd say "Dufay" is by far the most common. Grove sometimes does funny things with names - they have Rachmaninoff as "Rakhmaninov", which was not the way Sergei spelled it when he left Russia. And they have Tchaikovsky as "Chaykovsky". That may be a truer transliteration, but nobody looks him up under such a spelling. -- JackofOz (talk) 04:34, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
I think that it's time to change to Du Fay -- I just read a review of the David Fallows Festschrift (writing up an article about him now) that notes that despite David's use of "Dufay" in his 1982 book, in the 2011 Festschrift, of the authors that refer to him, "All use the spelling ‘Du Fay’." I'll put this as a requested move and willing to edit it . Thoughts: @Antandrus:, @Wspencer11:, @JackofOz:. -- Michael Scott Cuthbert (talk) 16:38, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
Yes, it does seem to be the contemporary standard. Ten years ago, probably "Dufay" predominated. I'm ok with moving the article. Antandrus (talk) 17:06, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
P.S. if consensus is for a move, let's not do it today or tomorrow; it's David Fallows's 70th birthday tomorrow (hence the article on him), and I'd not like him to wake up and see his preferred spelling changed on that great day. -- Michael Scott Cuthbert (talk) 18:39, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
Good point; that would be rude! Coincidentally, I have his book on Dufay on my desk right now; been intending to expand/cite/correct this article for a while now. Maybe over the holidays. Antandrus (talk) 19:08, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
I'm a fence-sitter on this one, Mschthbert. I really don't mind (or care) either way. Thanks for the ping, though. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 20:04, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
Can I just say, I love you all. To come from editing fraught topics like alternative medicine, GMO crops etc. and find a dispute about "Dufay" vs "Du Fay" warms the heart. I find him an ultra-special composer. What does Grove Music say? Alexbrn (talk) 20:19, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
Grove has had it at "Du Fay" since 2001, but in itself that wouldn't have been enough for me since the author of that article (Alejandro Planchart) has been the biggest proponent of changing the spelling of the name. But seeing the general acceptance throughout musicology since then has been more convincing. @Alexbrn: thanks for the warm thoughts. -- Michael Scott Cuthbert (talk) 21:03, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
You know, we really should give him a hard time because the license plate of his Volvo had DUFAY rather than DU FAY. I should put a picture in the article ... Antandrus (talk) 21:49, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

Ha! True. Okay, I edited the article to reflect new spelling. Antandrus, can you (or another admin) make the move over the redirect? Thanks! -- Michael Scott Cuthbert (talk) 17:15, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

Birthdate?

So what's the story with his birthdate? In my experience he was always listed as being born c. 1400, but there's a specific date listed here, admittedly with a question mark attached. What's the evidence for that date, and shouldn't that evidence (or at least something about the uncertainty) be in the article? Wspencer11 13:43, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree, I am confused as to where 1397 comes from. To the best of my knowledge, there is no record of his birthdate whatsoever, and the c.1400 is simply taken as the closest logical "round number". I suggest that the 1397 is changed to c. August 5, 1400 until evidence is presesnted that dictates otherwise.Jason McConnell-Leech (talk) 12:10, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

The most recent article in the New Grove by Alejandro Planchart gives 5 August 1397, with the question mark. The research is published in "Notes on Guillaume Du Fay’s Last Works", Journal of Musicology, xiii (1995), 55–72, and in "Guillaume Du Fay’s Benefices and his Relationship to the Court of Burgundy", Early Music History, viii (1988), 117–71, and "What’s in a Name? Reflections on some Works of Guillaume Du Fay", Early Music, xvi (1988), 165–75. He derived it from his ordination date and obituary, but acknowledges it is not certain, hence the question mark. Antandrus (talk) 13:49, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Se la face ay pale ROCKS!!!

where can i get an mp3 format of this song? i've searched everywhere on the Net, but couldn't find anything. does the person who uploaded the song in ogg format have a version in mp3? thanks!

It's really hard to find good mp3s of 15th century music; unfortunately I don't know where this one came from. Here's the info page on that upload: Image:10_Se_La_Face_Ay_Pale.ogg Antandrus (talk) 18:36, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
eureka. they've got tonnes of free music from asteria at magnatune.com. =)

Composer project review

I've reviewed this article as part of the Composers review of its B-class articles. This article is pretty good; it covers a fair amount of territory. Dufay's works are not listed, and I have some questions about his contributions to music theory in my review on the comments page. Questions and comments should be left here or on my talk page... Magic♪piano 14:55, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

I'd never thought of him, or even heard of him, as a music theorist. There are no surviving writings of any kind -- only music. However, I see that there are two possible works which are lost -- a Tractatus de musica mensurata et de proportionibus, which François-Joseph Fétis claimed to have seen in a 16th-century copy (and was last seen, allegedly, in London in 1824 where a book-seller had it); and another general book on music which gets a mention in another theorist's work. That's probably why someone (not me) put him in the category "music theorists". I can add this stuff to the article. Antandrus (talk) 15:06, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
Given that it's not a part of music history I know much about, I figured the disagreement between the lead and the body ought to be pointed out, and somebody like you would know how to correct it. Magic♪piano 16:10, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
I took it out, for now. No only do the two alleged manuscripts no longer exist, no one knows what was in them. If there were even a detailed description of their contents, I think it would be justifiable calling him a theorist. (You can still call him that, and if someone insists we can put it back, it's just not very practical to have him categorized that way, since you can't learn a thing about what he thought.) Antandrus (talk) 16:27, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Language question

I have a language related question. The use of the word 'Netherlandisch' as meaning someone from the Low Countries seems very unnatural to me, a Dutch native speaker from the Netherlands. Furthermore, Guillaume Dufay is from Flanders, the (now) Belgium part of the Low Countries, as is stated on the Dutch language page. So why not use Flemish? Or is there a scientific reason (from History of the Middle Ages) for using this term? Ekaterin-nl (talk) 18:46, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

An excellent point. I think the intention here is not to describe Dufay's nationality, but rather the style group to which he belongs. The usual expression used by musicologists is "Franco-Flemish School", which refers to a group of composers active in the 15th and early 16th centuries, whose regions of origin include areas of northern France as well as the modern areas of Belgium (both French and Flemish-speaking) and the Netherlands. Sometimes this group is referred to as "The Netherlanders", which I suppose is how this term "Netherlandish" got into this article. I have also seen (somewhere on Wikipedia, but never in the scholarly literature) "Dutch School" used in place of "Franco-Flemish School", but this is misleading in that it implies all the composers were native speakers of Dutch/Flemish, which is simply not the case. My first impulse is to change this word, and fix the link to point to the Franco-Flemish School, instead of the geographical article to which it presently links. However, I think perhaps a day or two should be allowed for any contrary opinions to be voiced.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 19:02, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Guillaume Du Fay/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Comment(s)Press [show] to view →
==Composers Project Assessment of Guillaume Du Fay: 2009-01-23==

This is an assessment of article Guillaume Du Fay by a member of the Composers project, according to its assessment criteria. This review was done by Magicpiano.

If an article is well-cited, the reviewer is assuming that the article reflects reasonably current scholarship, and deficiencies in the historical record that are documented in a particular area will be appropriately scored. If insufficient inline citations are present, the reviewer will assume that deficiencies in that area may be cured, and that area may be scored down.

Adherence to overall Wikipedia standards (WP:MOS, WP:WIAGA, WP:WIAFA) are the reviewer's opinion, and are not a substitute for the Wikipedia's processes for awarding Good Article or Featured Article status.

===Origins/family background/studies=== Does the article reflect what is known about the composer's background and childhood? If s/he received musical training as a child, who from, is the experience and nature of the early teachers' influences described?

  • ok

===Early career=== Does the article indicate when s/he started composing, discuss early style, success/failure? Are other pedagogic and personal influences from this time on his/her music discussed?

  • ok

===Mature career=== Does the article discuss his/her adult life and composition history? Are other pedagogic and personal influences from this time on his/her music discussed?

  • ok

===List(s) of works=== Are lists of the composer's works in WP, linked from this article? If there are special catalogs (e.g. Köchel for Mozart, Hoboken for Haydn), are they used? If the composer has written more than 20-30 works, any exhaustive listing should be placed in a separate article.

  • Works are counted by genre; no complete listing.

===Critical appreciation=== Does the article discuss his/her style, reception by critics and the public (both during his/her life, and over time)?

  • ok, but see summary.

===Illustrations and sound clips=== Does the article contain images of its subject, birthplace, gravesite or other memorials, important residences, manuscript pages, museums, etc? Does it contain samples of the composer's work (as composer and/or performer, if appropriate)? (Note that since many 20th-century works are copyrighted, it may not be possible to acquire more than brief fair use samples of those works, but efforts should be made to do so.) If an article is of high enough quality, do its images and media comply with image use policy and non-free content policy? (Adherence to these is needed for Good Article or Featured Article consideration, and is apparently a common reason for nominations being quick-failed.)

  • More images needed.

===References, sources and bibliography=== Does the article contain a suitable number of references? Does it contain sufficient inline citations? (For an article to pass Good Article nomination, every paragraph possibly excepting those in the lead, and every direct quotation, should have at least one footnote.) If appropriate, does it include Further Reading or Bibliography beyond the cited references?

  • Article is well-referenced; some inline citations.

===Structure and compliance with WP:MOS=== Does the article comply with Wikipedia style and layout guidelines, especially WP:MOS, WP:LEAD, WP:LAYOUT, and possibly WP:SIZE? (Article length is not generally significant, although Featured Articles Candidates may be questioned for excessive length.)

  • Lead is short.

===Things that may be necessary to pass a Good Article review===

  • Article requires more inline citations (WP:CITE)
  • Article lead needs work (WP:LEAD)
  • Article needs (more) images and/or other media (MOS:IMAGE)

===Summary=== This is a pretty nice article. It presents a nice picture of the man's life and music. Where I get lost is over his alleged contributions to music theory. For example, the article on Lodovico Zacconi discusses his theoretical contributions; I do not see any similar mention here. Also, for a major composer like this we should have a (complete/known/confirmed) works list.

The article could use more images; its lead should be more reflective of the content of the article.

Article is B-class. Magic♪piano 14:50, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Last edited at 19:25, 22 December 2015 (UTC). Substituted at 16:50, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

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