Talk:Gutter Sound

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Location of the scuttling and the wrecks[edit]

This article claims that Gutter Sound rather than a wider area of Scapa Flow was the site of the scuttling and still contains the remaining wrecks as listed. I'm not an expert on military history, but sources about Orkney usually describe and picture the scuttling as occurring over a wider area, not just the reactively small Gutter Sound. Not the best reference source, but see the map on this diving site [1] for example. Maybe a merge with Scapa Flow would be the best solution?--JBellis 13:08, 4 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This seems to be the case - I have added a merge template Viv Hamilton 16:12, 4 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I support this. While some of the German fleet was certainly scuttled within Gutter Sound (the B109 remains there), the bulk of this article refers to events around the much wider area of Scapa Flow. Military and historical records widely use Scapa Flow in reference to this incident; Gutter Sound is mentioned only occasionally, in the narrower context of being the site of some of the scuttlings. As it stands, this article contains information of a much broader scope than strictly applies to Gutter Sound; likewise, the Scapa Flow article is deficient in detail of the scuttling incident.Maralia 17:18, 4 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

An alternative that I think I'd favor would be to move Gutter Sound to a scuttling-specific title, e.g., High Seas Fleet scuttling. Jeremy Tobacman 15:45, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Requested comment at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject Military history. Maralia 02:37, 6 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Support Merge: I think the information in this article is good, but would be far better merged into the Scapa Flow article. I am one of the many Scuba Divers who have been able to visit these impressive wrecks. Gutter Sound is what we call 'The Bottle Dive'. It has an average depth around 18 metres and contains no wrecks. The seabed is composed of a very fine silty medium and due to the tidal flows it tends to be the place where bits of detritus such as bottles, from the various medical cabinets, pottery and other small artifacts get washed up. I have previously placed on the Scapa Flow article two images of pottery shards which originated from here. They were found after rummaging around up to my armpits in a goo so sticky I was hosed down hanging from a ladder before being allowed back on the diving boat. Lyness was the base for the Atlantic and Home Fleets during both world wars and the German Battle Fleet was dispersed over a large area clear of the shore and main shipping lanes. The remaining Battle Fleet wrecks are located at depths up to 45 metres, they should not be confused with the wrecks of 'Block Ships' which were intentionally sunk by the Royal Navy to prevent surface & submarine access to the sound. Richard Harvey 09:10, 9 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the note and the info you added. I did originally support a merge, but the consensus at WP:MILHIST has been that the bulk of this info belongs in a new article about the internment and subsequent scuttling. As a primarily geographical article, Scapa Flow would of course contain reference to the event and its effects in terms of diving today, but not the exhaustive list of every ship originally scuttled, etc. Gutter Sound also should be a primarily geography-oriented article, and obviously will need to be fleshed out; I'd appreciate your help with that. I hope to work on the new article tonight. Maralia 16:24, 9 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Radioactive contamination (or the lack thereof)[edit]

Perhaps this is obvious to many people, but I've been unable to find any references to back up the points about the special metallurgical properties of the submerged metal in the wrecks. It sounds perfectly credible, but does anyone have any refs? thanks. PateraIncus (talk) 08:30, 24 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Merge[edit]

Having written the Scuttling of the German fleet in Scapa Flow article, most of the information in this article is now replicated. On an aside, some of the information here is contradictory, even within the article. For example it states the Bremse was salvaged, but later that the wreck can be dived today. Both statements are pretty much wrong. Bremse was scuttled successfully, then Cox brought up the wreck in 1929, leaving only scattered fragments behind. There are seven wrecks still on the bottom not eight, and hence seven scheduled monuments, not eight (though the bits left are sometimes dived as a separate exercise). The sourcing is flawed as well, or non existent for much of it. A bit on the wrecks today, their depths etc could be moved over, but I'd be hesitant about including much else. The statements about most tonnage lost in a day and in a single port would be good if they were sourced. This would however leave the article as the basic "Gutter Sound is an inlet of the vast anchorage of Scapa Flow in the Orkney Islands of Scotland. Gutter Sound was the site of the mass-scuttling of the interned German Imperial High Seas Fleet in 1919.", with maybe a brief summary of the scuttling and the diving activities carried out currently. Benea (talk) 19:51, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think you are right. What should remain here once sourcing etc is corrected is:

the opening sentence
any other geographic information to be added
any other historical information to be added (e.g. use as an anchorage in earlier times)
brief summary of the history of the scuttling and salvage with main article link
list/information on current status of the wrecks in the Sound (identity, length, designated, depths, intact or not etc)
references for above

Viv Hamilton (talk) 09:41, 5 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Fair enough. Ben Mac Dui 20:14, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Shooting on German life boats[edit]

Perhaps someone could the shooting on the German life boats by the British soldiers. Eight soldiers died and are buried today in Scotland. Historians believe, they shott because the British soldiers were helpless and agressive, after they saw the sinking ships. 217.255.250.97 (talk) 11:10, 15 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

See Scuttling of the German fleet in Scapa Flow. Ben Mac Dui 12:52, 15 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Re-write[edit]

This article was proposed for a merge to Scuttling of the German fleet in Scapa Flow a while ago, and it looks like it's been an issue here for years. There's no point in this duplicating the info at the "Scuttling..." article, and (as has been pointed out) the Sound was not the only place the ships went down, so it makes more sense to trim out and summarize the stuff on the scuttling here and re-write this as a location article. So I have done that. I trust that is OK with everyone. Xyl 54 (talk) 21:13, 6 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]