Talk:Guy Gibson/Archive 1

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This is more of a question. Guy Gibson had a faithful black Lab "Nigger" that used to wait for him. What happend to the dog? Some items I have read say that the dog was killed by a car earlier, but I think 'only as I remember it' in the film the dog was still on the runway waiting for Guy to return.

No, in the film ( as in life) the dog was run over and killed; I think you're confusing this with the scene in 'The Battle of Britain' where Michael Caine ( as a Squadron leader) is killed and his dog is left behind on the airfield [[Harryurz 16:40, 12 April 2006 (UTC)]]

The dog is buried at Scampton RAF station, further in the lincolnshire Echo (County wide highly respected Lincolnshire newspaper) it was reported on Oct 16th 2006 that Guy Gibson might of been the victim of friendly fire and possibly pilot error SimonD 12:14, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

The dog was run over during the day before the night of the raid. Gibson attached such significance to this that he asked his ground crew chief to bury the dog at midnight, when he would be over the Moehne Dam, and assigned the word "Nigger" as the codeword to be transmitted if the Moehne was breached. These facts, of course mean that these key scenes in the film are often censored when it is shown nowadays, which really spoils one of the most dramatic moments. I think that while obviously it is not acceptable to use the term "Nigger" in any context today it is not really valid to seek to alter a work from a previous era to the extent that its coherence is to an extent compromised. A simple warning at the beginning of the film that the word appears as the name of the leading character's dog should suffice. Guy Gibson gave the arming key from his Upkeep mine to his ground crew chief, and a member of his family produced it on the BBC's Antiques Roadshow a few years ago.--Spitfire1 17:44, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Affair with Margaret Masters

Not sure if anyone watched the BBC programme "Dambusters Declassified" in which the revelation the he had an affair with a member of the Woman's Aux Margaret Masters was made. Maybe this should be included in the personal life section? Bjmullan (talk) 21:27, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

We would need some references and quotable validation to include this somewhat negative aspect in the biography. I have done a Google search and failed to come up with anything tangible. Do you know if it appears in print anywhere? 21st CENTURY GREENSTUFF 23:30, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
Hello, in response to your question concerning whether there is any information in print concerning this issue,yes there is. Margaret - and I am assuming she is the same one (!) - was interviewed by Richard Morris when he was writing his book about Guy Gibson around 1992/93. She gave him a lot of information about their relationship, which for most of its duration was not physical. She was a nurse at the RAF hospital at Rauceby. They first met when a medical team was called out from Rauceby to attend an accident at RAF Syerston when the CO, Group Captain Walker, lost his arm. The book also includes a photo of her as Margaret North from late 1941. They would visit pubs for long chats and go to the cinema. She helped him when he was showing serious signs of operational stress towards the end of his tour. She married in 1942 and Guy was her son's godfather. PeenemundePigeon (talk) 10:50, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
There is now RS to backup this claim and I think that it should be included (but how?). See here and here. His personal life section is completely unreferenced and paints a rosy picture of married life. I don't think anyone (including me wants to destroy the memory of one the great hero's of the Second World War but this is an encyclopaedia). Suggestions on a postcard please to... Bjmullan (talk) 22:08, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
Not sure I could fit this on a postcard ... but I have no doubt that Gibson was not as pure as the driven snow. After all he was a young red-blooded RAF pilot living with death every day and no doubt raised merry hell in his spare time and enjoyed the company of attractive young ladies (he married a showgirl, which was about as racy as it gets in the 1940s). But looking at it dispassionately even Miss Masters notes that it was not a physical relationship so what it boils down to is - young man forcibly living apart from his wife due to war, has drinks in the pub and goes to the cinema with a female colleague from a nearby unit. That is hardly earth shattering or encyclopedically notable. 21st CENTURY GREENSTUFF 12:00, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Killed by friendly fire?

Skimming through a Military History part-work (I forget it's title) in my local newsagents today, I came across an article suggesting that recent evidence had come to light suggesting that Gibson's Mosquito was in fact shot down by fire from the rear of one of the Lancasters that had been on the same raid, having mistaken his plane for a JU-88. This apparently happened a few minutes and a few miles from where his plane eventually came down. The article included reports from the two Lancaster crew who claimed the "JU-88", and seemed to be properly researched.

I also wonder if the RAF had realised the truth of what had happened, but kept it quiet, as the ramifications of a great war hero being killed by FF would not have been well received by the public. A tragic end, if that was the case, but is there any other information on this aspect around? I know there have been several books published suggesting this and similar theories, but not actually seen anything about it myself. Regards, Lynbarn (talk) 09:28, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

On the other hand, the RAF itself says there was a problem with the Mosquito's fuel system, complete with references to eyewitnesses on the ground who described what would be the result of that. Is what might be poor maintenance or evenm pilot error more or less "embarrassing" than friendly fire? Nick Cooper (talk) 12:59, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
Gibson's Mosquito would have been doing around 300-310mph on its way home, and with an average Lancaster cruising homeward at around 210-220mph, any gunner would have needed an inordinate amount of luck to have seen him, never mind hit him going by at that speed. Although possible, I don't think it very likely. From the eyewitness accounts it sounds like fuel starvation with the engines perhaps not picking up after changing over fuel tanks, and by the time they realised they weren't going to get them re-started they were too low to bale out.
Generally, PFF and other Mosquitoes avoided the bomber stream for just the reason you mention. Gibson wasn't 'green' enough to have flown anywhere near where the Main Force would be flying homeward, for he would have well known how similar the Mosquito and the Ju 88 looked at night, as well as being aware of the substantial risk of collision. An additional factor is the different cruising altitudes and speeds, the Lancaster altitudes being around 18,000-22,000ft, while the Mosquito being more at home much higher up and around 100mph faster.
I suspect though that Gibson's route home was a low one, perhaps around 1,000ft, in which case, the failure of the engines to pick up after changing tanks would have been much more disconcerting and he may have just run out of time to get them re-started. With the propellers windmilling rather than feathered, because you want them turning the engine over so that it can re-start, they create a lot of drag so they would have lost height more quickly than if both engines had been deliberately shut down and switched off. That may have caught them out. At night, over a completely blacked out Holland, it would be very easy to leave it too late to get out. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.7.147.13 (talk) 20:21, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

It can't have been friendly fire, as Mosquitos never flew in the bomber stream for that exact reason. Without a black box one can't be certain, but Gibson is thought to have been at low level throughout. Lancasters cruised four miles high and no Lancaster gunner could possibly have shot Gibson down, the idea's absurd. Nor was there a 'problem' with the Mosquito's fuel system. Warwick had never flown in a Mosquito before, and on the Mosquito the navigator controlled the fuel cocks, behind the pilot's seat -- Warwick had never had to do that before either. It seems likely that, in the dark, when switching tanks, he either switched to empty tanks or even set the cocks to 'Off'. At low level, that would finish you, for the reasons given above. Hugo Barnacle84.93.190.54 (talk) 22:18, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

I didn't know about the navigator being on his first flight in a Mosquito, but yes, that could have done it, although I would not like to cast aspersions against him as he may well be completely blameless. It's generally not a good idea to let a tank drain dry as it then becomes liable to allow air into the feed pipes and carburettor, and that can delay engine re-starting even more. Usual procedure at low level was to use a tank down to a certain minimum amount only, and then change over tanks, then the engine picks up right away. Otherwise a Merlin will behave as if the throttle has been closed and will backfire for a while due to a weak (too lean) mixture until the normal flow is resumed from the new tank. I suspect this distinctive 'popping' sound is what the eyewitnesses heard before the engines went completely silent. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.7.147.13 (talk) 19:52, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

About 1999 I read book which had an account by some Dutchmen who evidently witnessed Gibson's aircraft seemingly in trouble over their homes. The account recalled how they had witnessed an aircraft overhead with the cockpit lights on as if the crew were attempting to locate something within the cockpit. Shortly after they saw the lights go out and then a few moments later the sound of an aircraft impacting the ground and exploding. The aircraft in daylight turned out to have been a Mosquito and various items that they recovered before the NAZI's arrived were hidden but revealed the identity of the crew. I will attempt to locate the book as I appreciate until then it is only speculation.

Incidentally to who ever wrote this item - the Royal Air Force has never ever flown planes - that is a tool for shaping wood!. The RAF flew and still flies aeroplanes or aircraft. In fact when I was undergoing aircrew training in the 1970's another cadet was reprimanded in no uncertain terms for using the term "Plane" in reference to the aircraft and it ended with the expression "...It was is and always will be an AEROPLANE, SIR!" So can someone please change the text to show aeroplane not plane. Another error I found is that Gibson was given his flying badge - no he was not, he was awarded his "Pilots wings." Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.21.193.127 (talk) 17:38, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

In response to your comments - the word "plane" is used in the Albert Ball article and this article has achieved Featured Article status. I checked this because the original author mentioned this article in the notes here. Also the phrase "wings" is the familiar colloquial nickname for the formal term "Flying Badge". Therefore, I would agree with the continued use of the term "Flying Badge" which might be expanded to include the more familiar "wings". But not for "wings" to replace it. Here is a site with a clear reference to RAF Flying Badges including the one Gibson would have received. http://www.rafweb.org/Ranks-Uniform/Badges3A.htmParadiseGardener (talk) 18:19, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

The word "Plane" is used by the Americans and is NOT used in the RAF - even today! The "Pilots Wings" are awarded up on completion of a pilots ab initio training where he or she is qualified to fly and the RAF refers to them as "Pilots Wings and the aircrew badge is referred to as Brevet. Just because some refers to something in a article doesn't make it correct. to refer to an aircraft as a plane is an insult to those who have or are serving in the Royal Air Force. If you wish to use American terminology then do so on pages relating to the USAF. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.2.107.221 (talk) 16:02, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

Return to Operations - Gibson's final posting

Hello, I have changed part of this section to reflect what is commonly understood. I will add some references in due course.

Gibson’s final posting before he was killed was as Base Air Staff Officer at 54 Base, RAF Coningsby. This Base’s satellite fields included RAF Woodhall Spa, which is only a few miles away. 627 Squadron was located here.

When the Pathfinder Force was first established, each Group gave up 2 Squadrons. The 2 Squadrons transferred from 5 Group were 83 and 97 Squadrons. Both were Lancaster Squadrons. Around April 1944, there was an internal Bomber Command dispute between AVM Cochrane, AOC 5 Group, and AVM Bennett, AOC 8 Group (The Pathfinders) over what was possible with low level target marking. Harris agreed with Cochrane's ideas and he effectively rewarded Cochrance when the 2 Squadrons were transferred back to 5 Group. 627 Squadron was also transferred to 5 Group from 8 Group. The members of this Squadron were not happy with the move.

Therefore, 5 Group had its own Master Bombers and flare force. Gibson was acting in the role of a 5 Group Master Bomber on the night of 19 September 1944. There was no association with 8 Group/Pathfinders.

I cannot find any connection between Gibson and RAF Hemswell. Gibson was associated with only 5 Group Squadrons (83, 106 and 617) and airfields when in Bomber Command. RAF Hemswell is north of Lincoln and was in 1 Group. RAF Coningsby is to the south east. They are too far apart to have been connected as a base and satellite.

Also, he was never made a station commander. He is highly likely to have been promoted to Acting Group Captain if he had been PeenemundePigeon (talk) 19:43, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Major revision of whole article: comments

Hello, I have just completed a revision of this article to make sure it is reasonably complete in advance of the upcoming 70th Anniversary of Operation Chastise. There is material that can be moved out to other articles but it just needed to go somewhere for the time being.

Structure

The article's basic structure is based on the articles about Albert Ball and Douglas Bader.

Reliable sources

For Gibson's main biographical details this article refers to the 2 main biographies of Gibson.

Ottaway, Susan (2009). Guy Gibson VC The Glorious Dambuster. Hampshire,London: Speedman Press.
Morris, Richard (1994). Guy Gibson. London: Viking, Penquin Group.

For the Dams Raid it refers to

Sweetman, John (2002). The Dambusters Raid. London: Cassell.

Morris 1994

He interviewed David and Ann Shannon and also Margaret North. Therefore the info about Gibson's relationship with her has been in the public domain for nearly 20 years. The book includes a reconstruction of Gibson's log book based on his own log book and the Squadrons' ORBs.

Ottaway 2009

This is a revision of her earlier 1994 book. She interviewd members of Gibson's family including his sister Joan and his cousin Janet, the daughter of Gibson's maternal aunt, Beatrice "Gwennie" Christopher.

Key points included in the revision

His family

His parents separated. His mother became an alcoholic and was unable to care properly for her children. His school therefore became involved in his general upbringing. His house master became his guardian and organised places to stay during holidays.

Arthur Harris

Gibson came to Harris's attention early in the war. Harris helped Gibson's career considerably - command of a Lancaster squadron and then Harris's first choice to command the new 617. His support may have cooled after Gibson's Canadian/US tour.

Churchill and politics

Gibson's exposure to Churchill during his Canadian/US tour certainly influenced his decision to enter politics. It is possible it was suggested to Weston that he approach Gibson about standing as a MP in Macclesfield.

Bar to DSO

Gibson was awarded a bar to his DSO in March 1943. It was challenged but Harris confirmed it.

London Gazette references

The references to the LG were correct BUT the LG has changed to format of its website so they had become invalid. They have all been corrected to work with the new site.

Content from previous version without references

I tried to find references for the following content, but there weren't any in any of the 3 main books. They may be somewhere else, but I haven't got that far yet. I've parked the content here for later use/reference

Identity of pilot of intruder

On 8 April he was about to land at Wellingore air base when his fighter was attacked by a Junkers Ju 88 'intruder' flown by Feldwebel Hans Hahn of I./NJG 2, wounding his radar operator Sgt Bell.

Cygnet aircraft

A General Aircraft Cygnet which he flew twice while at the OTU is preserved at the National Museum of Flight in Scotland.

106 Squadron crew

After several operational sorties with 106 Squadron he considered two members of his crew sub-standard and had them replaced. However, when a visiting Air Ministry team considered his 5' 11" tall rear-gunner (Pilot Officer John Wickens) too tall to be a Lancaster gunner, Gibson told them to forget the rules, as his gunner was staying.

Golf

Ernest Moore was a keen golfer and invited his new son-in-law to join the Glamorganshire Golf Club as an honorary member. Gibson spent his post-raid leave in Penarth, playing golf most days. While on leave he had a call from the Air Ministry telling him that he had been awarded the VC. His father-in-law Ernest Moore immediately telephoned the steward at the Glamorganshire and asked to him lay on as many drinks as he could find and the whole family went down to celebrate in style at the clubhouse.

Welter's Claim

The Luftwaffe claims record by Tony Woods has this for the Welter claim

Night: 18-19. September 1944 JaFü I. Jagdkorps/Lfl. Reich: 18.09.44 Uffz. Hans Schadowski 3./NJG 3 Lancaster  QQ at 5.000 m. 22.30 Film C. 2027/II Anerk: Nr.127 18.09.44 Uffz. Hans Schadowski 3./NJG 3 Lancaster  AP at 4.800 m. 22.32 Film C. 2027/II Anerk: Nr.130 18.09.44 Ltn. Kurt Welter 10./JG 300 Mosquito  HF-JF at 8.000 m. [N. Wittenberg] 23.05 Film C. 2027/II Anerk: Nr. –

JaFü 8. Jagddivision/Lfl. Reich: 18.09.44 Oblt. Josef Kraft 7./NJG 6 Dakota  Raum Tokaj 21.40 Reference: NJG 6 Kock Supplemental Claims from Sources : NJG 6

Note that it's both the night before Gibson's loss, and hundreds of kilometers from Steenbergen.

Not quite sure what to do. Can no longer find the Tony Woods link, and it's not a published source anyone. Anyone got Freeman's NJ claims book? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.176.66.69 (talk) 09:50, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

I've amended the Welter claim and referenced the probable victim for what its worth. Given the controversy around Welter's mosquito claims ( see his Wiki entry) its difficult to be positive but it appears Gibson did not fall to his guns. What is also a problem with the entry regarding Welter is the speculation about the ME 262. Welter was not flying the jet in September 1944, and his first claims in the jet were not made until December '44. This ought to be removed. Thanks Harryurz (talk) 18:46, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, but Welter's claim was made, as noted above, near Wittenberg, not at Guetersloh, and it was made at an altitude of 8,500m. 23 Squadron flew low-level intruder sorties against Luftwaffe aircraft taking off and returning to their airfields. Andreas Zapf's research has shown that Welter's claim does not correspond to any Mosquito loss that night: "Gegen welche Mosquito Kurt Welter in dieser Nacht „angetreten“ ist, wird zumindest für den Moment unbeantwortet bleiben. Abgeschossen hat er sie aber mit hoher Wahrscheinlichkeit nicht." ("The question of which Mosquito Kurt Welter 'encountered' on that night will remain for the time being unanswered. However, there is a high probability that he did not shoot it down." http://www.chronicles-of-the-luftwaffe.de/?p=603 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.187.174.163 (talk • contribs) 06:55, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

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