Talk:Haplogroup E-M123

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Orphaned references in Haplogroup E1b1b1c (Y-DNA)

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Haplogroup E1b1b1c (Y-DNA)'s orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "Semino2004":

From Jews: Semino O, Magri C, Benuzzi G, Lin AA, Al-Zahery N, Battaglia V, Maccioni L, Triantaphyllidis C, Shen P, Oefner PJ, Zhivotovsky LA, King R, Torroni A, Cavalli-Sforza LL, Underhill PA, Santachiara-Benerecetti AS (2004). "Origin, diffusion, and differentiation of Y-chromosome haplogroups E and J: inferences on the neolithization of Europe and later migratory events in the Mediterranean area". Am. J. Hum. Genet. 74 (5): 1023–34. doi:10.1086/386295. PMC 1181965. PMID 15069642. {{cite journal}}: Unknown parameter |month= ignored (help)CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
From Haplogroup E1b1b (Y-DNA): Semino et al. (2004)

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 15:27, 11 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

There is a mistake in the distribution table

It says "Ashkenazi Jews" (10%), although in the source (Hammer et al. 2009[1]) the numbers refer to 74 out 0f 737 "Israelies" - which include *all Jews*; both Ashkenazi and Sephardi etc. Not only to "Ashkenazi Jews". See "I" for "Israelites" in the table (Fig 1) there:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2771134/figure/Fig1/

In fact, in another table (Fig 2a) in the same article (Hammer et al. 2009) it is clear that Ashkenazi "Israelites" have a much higher frequency of E-M123 than the Sepharadi Israelites - perhaps 16% - 17%:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2771134/figure/Fig2/

I tried to fix it - but someone changed it back.

Perhaps the real number for Ashkenazi Jews with E-M123 is 16.1% as in Behar et al 2004, for "M35": https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00439-003-1073-7/tables/2 Minus the 1-2% of real *M35, which was included together with the M123... See: https://www.jogg.info/pages/11/coffman.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.74.180.106 (talk) 04:04, 4 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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E-M123 origin

E-M123 origin in levant because it was discovered in the remains of the natufians The natufians descended from kebarean and mushabian culture which were in the levant before the natufian We are not from East Africa! Srgyu15 (talk) 09:03, 21 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Srgyu15: As per Wikipedia policy, we have to go by what the sources explicitly say, not by what we personally think makes sense. Editing according to what you personally think makes sense (but is not explicitly stated in reliable sources) is WP:OR(original research) and is, as mentioned, against Wikipedia policy.

In both of the sources cited in the "Origin" section, the authors suggest Africa as a possible place of origin for E-M123. In one source (Cruciani), both a Middle Eastern and African origin are suggested as possibilities.

In Luis et al. 2004, the authors suggest that various E lineages (including E-M123/E3b2-M123) may have arrived in the Near East from Egypt/northeast Africa (rather than from the Horn of Africa) before soreading across the Near East, and also that prior to that, the ancestors of those lineages may have come from somewhere further south in Africa (before reaching Egypt). From the study:

"The present-day Egyptian E3b-M35 distribution most likely results from a juxtaposition of various demic episodes. Since the E3b*-M35 lineages appear to be confined mostly to the sub-Saharan populations, it is conceivable that the initial migrations toward North Africa from the south primarily involved derivative E3b-M35 lineages. These include E3b1-M78, a haplogroup especially common in Ethiopia (23%), and, perhaps, E3b2-M123 (2%), which is present as well (Underhill et al. 2000; Cruciani et al. 2002; Semino et al. 2002). The data suggest that two later expansions may have followed: one eastward along the Levantine corridor into the Near East and the other toward northwestern Africa. The extant North African and Middle Eastern distribution (Underhill et al. 2001b; Cruciani et al. 2002; present study) of these lineages suggests that both routes are associated with the dissemination of E3b1-M78. However, the E3b3-M123 chromosomes may have spread predominantly toward the east, whereas E3b2-M81, which is present in relatively high levels in Morocco (33% and 69% in Moroccan Arabs and Moroccan Berbers, respectively [Cruciani et al. 2002]), dispersed mainly to the west. This proposal is in accordance with a population expansion involving E3b2-M81 believed to have occurred in northwestern Africa ∼2 ky ago (Cruciani et al. 2002).

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1182266/#!po=27.0642

In Cruciani et al. 2004, the authors are uncertain about the origin of E-M123 and its common subgroup E-M34, and consider both East Africa and the Near East as possibilities. From the study:

"The E-M123 clade was found in Ethiopia (11.2%), the Near East (3.7%), Europe (1.7%), and northern Africa (0.9%). In our data set, all the E-M123 chromosomes also carry the M34 mutation (E-M34), with the exception of one E-M123* subject from Bulgaria. This paragroup has been previously reported only in one individual from Central Asia (Underhill et al. 2000). Although the frequency distribution of E-M34 could suggest that eastern Africa was the place in which the haplogroup arose, two observations point to a Near Eastern origin: (1) Within eastern Africa, the haplogroup appears to be restricted to Ethiopia, since it has not been observed in either neighboring Somalia or Kenya (present study) or Sudan (Underhill et al. 2000). By contrast, E-M34 chromosomes have been found in a large majority of the populations from the Near East so far analyzed (Underhill et al. 2000; Cinnioğlu et al. 2004; Semino et al. 2004 [in this issue]; present study). (2) E-M34 chromosomes from Ethiopia show lower variances than those from the Near East and appear closely related in the E-M34 network (fig. 2D). If our interpretation is correct, E-M34 chromosomes could have been introduced into Ethiopia from the Near East. The high frequency of E-M34 observed for some of the Ethiopian populations could be the consequence of subsequent genetic drift, which can also explain the lower frequencies (2.3% [Underhill et al. 2000] and 4.0% [Semino et al. 2002]) reported for two large independent samples of Ethiopians. From the Near East, E-M34 chromosomes could also have been introduced into Europe, possibly by Neolithic farmers, but the paucity of E-M34 chromosomes in southeastern Europe (Semino et al. 2004 [in this issue]; present study) weakens this hypothesis. Indeed, as for E-M78δ chromosomes, introduction of E-M34 from Africa directly to southern-central Europe cannot be excluded at the present."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1181964/

Skllagyook (talk) 12:44, 21 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]