Talk:Harcha

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The sources used it say it's a moroccan harcha not algerian[edit]

Hi , I was checking this article and I'm surprised that it says the harcha is an Algerian pancake, which is not true. Then I saw the ressouces number 1 and 2 and noticed that it is one source (one book) and thankfully I have a pdf version of it. I checked the page 25 as written in the article, guess what? I found nothing that has to do with this pancake or Algeria. The only right source here related to this article is the source number 3 https://www.thespruceeats.com/moroccan-harcha-semolina-pan-fried-flatread-2394807 which says obviously Moroccan harcha not algerian.

--Mustapha1919 (talk) 17:03, 5 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I found nothing that has to do with this pancake or Algeria That's very strange because it took me two minutes to confirm that the words "Algériens" and "Harcha" are indeed present on page 25 of this book (the one cited in the article).
@Ideophagous: What do you mean by "authentic sources" and what makes you think that the cited sources that you removed are unrelated to the subject? M.Bitton (talk) 23:18, 5 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Hello @M.Bitton:. I checked the sources you cited, and I could not find a direct reference to harcha being available in Algeria. Furthermore, the article was heavily biased in that it claimed that the origin of this bread is Algeria, and was later introduced to Morocco, when in fact the vast majority of sources mention it as a Moroccan bread, more specifically from the Middle Atlas, without any mention of Algeria. One of the sources listed (Sissons) says that it's a "Maghrebi" bread, which is why I kept the references to Algeria in the article and required more citations. "Sissons" not being primarily a book of food history or cuisine, it is possible that its use of the term "Maghrebi" is not accurate. If you have a full screenshot (the whole page) from one of your sources, stating that the bread is traditional food in Algeria, please post it here, and I would be glad to modify the article accordingly. -- Ideophagous (talk) 06:01, 6 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@M.Bitton: Hi, you said that it took me two minutes to confirm that the words "Algériens" and "Harcha" are indeed present on page 25 but this is not true at all firstable there is no harcha word in the whole book as i can comfirm in this screenshot below that proves that this book has nothing to do with our article here : link to the screen Can you please show us the relation between this book and our subject here because i can't find it i think you just throw it as a source to give your theory credibility. --Mustapha1919 (talk) 18:39, 6 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
You obviously are reading another source because anyone can type the words "Algériens" and "Harcha" in the search box to confirm that are there.[1]
No, it's the exact book as you can see in the screenshot I gave you. This book has nothing to do with our subject "harcha" there is no "harcha" word in it, there is no relations. This book is out of the context. If you have any other opinion, please prove it, and show us where you found the "harcha" in this book. --Mustapha1919 (talk) 12:43, 7 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
An editor (Ideophagous) just confirmed that the word Harcha is on page 25, making your comment irrelevant. M.Bitton (talk) 14:31, 7 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

the ones cited are different from Harcha, try to create another article.--Parabenz (talk) 03:34, 6 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Where are sources that are telling us that Harcha is baked in Algeria too?! Jamaru25 (talk) 16:33, 6 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

We're waiting for @M.Bitton: to provide such sources. If he cannot, then references to Algeria in the article will have to be removed. "Sissons" mentions that the bread is Maghrebi and gives the additional name "Mbessessa", which in another source seems to refer to another bread, and does not look like harcha.gourmandiseassia.fr/aghroum --Ideophagous (talk) 18:41, 6 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
1. I did not introduce the sources, they were there before I got here, and that's only because I was following a disruptive editor who has a history of removing every mention of Algeria from certain articles. Since you checked them yourself, maybe you could tell us what they say, because despite what "Mustapha1919" claims, the words "Algériens" and "Harcha" are indeed mentioned in the source and anyone can check that by searching within the source using the mentioned words.[1]
2. As far as I can tell, the source in question is only meant to support the statement that the bread was introduced into Morocco by Algerian bakers. That Harcha is available in Algeria under various names, including Harcha, is a fact supported by the other sources. For good measure, here's a peer-reviewed scholarly source that attests of its existence.[2]
3. Maybe it was biased, but you made it even more biased by using unreliable sources: 2 recipes,[3][4] a one line definition of what it is in a travel guide,[5] and a baseless claim in a cookbook.[6] Cooks, as you well know, are not historians and the one claim (in a cookbook about Moroccan food) that, in Morocco, the bread is from the Middle Atlas region is just that, a claim that applies to Morocco only.
4. If Sissons' book describes it as Maghrebi, then I have no problem describing it as such. Sissons, unlike cooks, is a scholar who cannot afford to make claims based on hearsay. The name he gives is obviously Mbesses, which is the other more prevalent name for Harcha in Algeria. You'll also notice the picture of the diamond shape, which is also used more often than the round one, and the the same recipe as the one given in the scholarly source.
5. We're waiting All these "new" editors (I counted 5 in the last 72 hours) waiting for me. I feel honoured. M.Bitton (talk) 23:32, 6 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
1.1 Let's avoid pointless accusations. The most important matter here is first, whether the bread is consumed in Algeria, second, whether it's original to Algeria or Morocco or elsewhere, or the answer is unknown, third, whether suggested alternative names refer to the same bread, or to different types of bread.
1.2 The source "Archives Marocaines volume 10-11" does indeed mention the words "harcha" (one reference on page 25) and "algérie" (62 references starting page 28), but if you go back to my earliest comment, that's not what I disputed. What I disputed is whether the source makes a clear statement that harcha is originally from or even found in Algeria, as the earliest version of the article claimed. This does not seem to be the case. If you have the full book, it wouldn't be hard for you to provide a screenshot of the full page where this reference is made. It is that simple. If one could prove any theory by finding two unrelated words on random pages in a book, then I can prove that Ɛicha Qandicha is the queen of Mars.
2. There you go. That's some progress. I have updated the article accordingly. Now at least we know that the bread is consumed in Algeria, and is considered "traditional". As for the claim that it was introduced to Morocco from Algeria, unless you can provide reliable sources to that effect, it remains a baseless claim.
3. A recipe book in the context of a food product is anything but unreliable. If the recipe book makes an incorrect statement, then other sources will most certainly correct it. If most recipe books refer to the product as Moroccan, then on what basis do you claim that they are all "unreliable"? The Travel guide on the other hand is a support source, keeping it or removing it won't change anything, since it says the same thing as the other sources. Now concerning Paula Wolfert, she's a food specialist. Your claim that her statement is "baseless" is itself baseless, because you haven't provided proof to the contrary with a more reliable source, such as a reference to a food history book. I know how this game is played. We can bring you 100 sources showing that harcha is Moroccan, but you will try to find fault with each and every one of them, since obviously each source will certainly have a flaw of some sort. What you're missing here is the compounding power of multiple sources supporting the same claim. Harcha is Moroccan because many sources clearly make that statement, not because of one or another source in particular. Now, if they are mistaken, then proof should come from an even larger number of reliable sources (or a few with higher reliability) supporting the opposite claim. If we have disputing claims, then the article should reflect this controversy, by providing both views on the subject, not choosing sides.
4. Sissons is a specialist in chemistry and agronomics[7], not history or food history. Specialists can only speak with some authority within their own field. "Maghrebi" is also a vague term. It could mean that the bread is found throughout the whole Maghreb (even Libya and Mauritania), or just in a restricted region. Basically Sissons is just covering his ass by stating that it's "Maghrebi". But in any case, we have established that harcha exists in both Morocco and Algeria, so this point is irrelevant.
5. Sarcasm will not get us anywhere. Providing reliable sources will.
In the end, everyone would benefit from a solid article making factual claims backed up by many sources. And by the way, please provide a link or a screenshot to the relevant passages from this source, which I could not find online: Annales de l'Institut d'études orientales, Librairie d'Amérique et d'Orient (1955). Université d'Alger. Institut d'études orientales, Volumes 13 à 14 de Annales de lʹInstitut d’études Orientales. pp. 20, 332.
-- Ideophagous (talk) 08:53, 7 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Like I said, I did not introduce the sources and I have no reason to believe that they do not support the statements. All I could tell, and that was in response to Mustapha1919's false claim, is that the words "Algériens" and "Harcha" are indeed mentioned on page 25.
Here's what I don't get:
I checked the sources you cited, and I could not find a direct reference to harcha being available in Algeria.
The source "Archives Marocaines volume 10-11" does indeed mention the words "harcha" (one reference on page 25) and "algérie" (62 references starting page 28).
Either you have checked the sources properly, i.e. by reading them, or you haven't. Which is it? M.Bitton (talk) 14:31, 7 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Here are two screenshots from my search with the terms "harcha" and "algerie" separately on that book using the link you provided. This is a screenshot from my search for both together. Page 25 is returned for search keys "harcha" and "algerie harcha". For search key "algerie" alone, page 25 does not seem to be listed. But let's even assume that both "harcha" and "algerie" are on page 25. How does that prove that harcha comes from Algeria? Hence what I said earlier: if you have the full page 25 from that book, please provide it, and we will be done. -- Ideophagous (talk) 17:24, 7 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
So, if I understood you well, you haven't checked the source, i.e. you haven't read it, and because you can't access it, you're assuming that it doesn't support the statement. Is that right? M.Bitton (talk) 18:29, 7 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not assuming that it doesn't support it. I'm assuming that whoever claims that it does support it, should provide proof, such as a screenshot of the page available online, given that other sources say the opposite. Also, note that the French version of the article says the following: Beaucoup de gens ne font pas la différence entre la Harcha et El Khobz El Harcha introduit plus tard au Maroc3.4,5Ce pain a été introduit au Maroc sous le nom de « El Khobz El Harcha »4.. Translation: Many people do not distinguish between Harcha and El Khobz El Harcha which was introduced later to Morocco. This bread was introduced to Morocco under the name "El Khobz El Harcha". Note that the source "Archives Marocaines volume 10-11 page 25" mentions El Khobz El Harcha, not Harcha. This could be the source of the conflict here, since these are completely different types of bread. -- Ideophagous (talk) 18:53, 7 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, I finally found the full book. The screenshot of page 25 is here. What it says is that bakers from Tlemcen, Algeria, introduced El Khobz El Harcha when they moved to Fez, Morocco, and it was made by adding semolina on top to make the bread surface rougher. This is definitely not the same as Harcha which is made entirely from semolina flour, butter and milk/water/yogurt. I believe the matter is settled. A note can be made in the article just like with the French version. Thank you for your help and contribution @M.Bitton: @Mustapha1919: @Parabenz: @Jamaru25: -- Ideophagous (talk) 19:21, 7 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Ideophagous: Thanks for that. What a waste of energy that was. I'll leave it to you to sort out. M.Bitton (talk) 23:40, 7 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
It certainly wasn't a waste of time or energy. Maybe you haven't been paying close attention to the details. Thanks anyway. -- Ideophagous (talk) 05:02, 8 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ a b Archives marocaines. Kraus Reprint. 1974.
  2. ^ Some Traditional Algerian products from durum wheat, African Journal of Food Science, Vol. 8(1), pp. 30-34, January 2014
  3. ^ Nargisse Benkabbou (17 September 2018). Casablanca: Authentische Rezepte aus Marokko. Südwest Verlag. p. 252. ISBN 978-3-641-23001-2.
  4. ^ Pat Seward; Orin Hargraves; Ruth Bjorklund (15 April 2016). Morocco: Third Edition. Cavendish Square Publishing, LLC. p. 131. ISBN 978-1-5026-1700-2.
  5. ^ Julius Honnor (2012). Morocco Footprint Handbook. Footprint Travel Guides. p. 472. ISBN 978-1-907263-31-6.
  6. ^ Paula Wolfert (1 January 2012). The Food of Morocco. A&C Black. p. 128. ISBN 978-1-4088-2746-8.
  7. ^ https://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/about-us/research-development/staff/staff-profiles/mike-sissons

Source not found online[edit]

Hello! Does someone have the following source listed in the article?

Annales de l'Institut d'études orientales, Librairie d'Amérique et d'Orient (1955). Université d'Alger. Institut d'études orientales, Volumes 13 à 14 de Annales de lʹInstitut d’études Orientales. pp. 20, 332

I found other volumes of "Annales de l'Institut d'études orientales", but not that particular one. Some of the statements made in the article are based on this source, and I could not find them elsewhere. -- Ideophagous (talk) 19:55, 7 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Edit: A screenshot to the relevant page(s) would be enough. -- Ideophagous (talk) 19:57, 7 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

No need to wait. I've managed to read enough through the snippet view to confirm that it's about a bread. Go ahead and nuke the whole sentence that starts with "In the rural ...". M.Bitton (talk) 23:40, 7 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Most certainly not. I would prefer to see the original source first. If you have it, I see no reason why you wouldn't upload a screenshot to archive.org and post a link here, or at least provide a link to the source itself if it's online. The details matter here. -- Ideophagous (talk) 05:06, 8 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
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